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Source: (consider it) Thread: Has God broken his promises?
Evensong
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Dude. That's not the New Testament line.
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Martin60
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Interesting.

It's my New Testament line.

I am no longer interested at all in projecting on the future from the Bronze-Iron Ages. Even Sharia-Sudan has paused for thought in that. There is always hope in hypocrisy.

Nobody is. Interested.

Apart from those of us - which has been me for nearly 50 years - in infantile denial.

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Andromeda
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Interesting thread. I'd been pondering this question myself recently. I found this site had some interesting thoughts. http://www.thingstocome.org/whatgen.htm

The issue is not at all resolved in my mind though, and I really ought to do some thorough studying of all these verses.

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Martin60
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Su-PERB! Andromeda. Thank you. Jack was ahead of us all in postmodernism as usual.

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Evensong
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quote:
Originally posted by Andromeda:
Interesting thread. I'd been pondering this question myself recently. I found this site had some interesting thoughts. http://www.thingstocome.org/whatgen.htm

The issue is not at all resolved in my mind though, and I really ought to do some thorough studying of all these verses.

I had a go at reading that page Andromeda but its very long. Can you summarise the man's conclusions?

He seems mainly focused on the "generation" question. Does he deal at all with the rest of scripture that anticipates Christ's return soon?

Interesting to note C.L. Lewis thought Jesus must have got it wrong.

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Andromeda
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Hi Evensong sorry for the late reply.

The author covers/categorises some of the views 'out there' on this topic, first covering the ones he finds less satisfactory then some more hopeful ones going over some pros and cons, criticisms and responses of each:
The unsatisfactory views:
- C S Lewis: Jesus got it wrong (interesting and honest, unsatisfactory probably to Lewis himself as much as anyone)
- Full preterist: the second coming happened in AD 70
- Partial Preterists: Jesus returned in 70 AD, but this was not the final coming of Christ
- Full Futurists: All aspects of the Olivet Discourse are yet to be fulfilled
All of these are discussed and the author gives reasons as to why he finds them unsatisfactory

Partial Futurists (A Hopeful alternative?):

This is the view that the Olivet Discourse contains fulfilled and unfulfilled elements
He provides some scriptural evidence supporting this view and then goes on to present 4 viewpoints within this category:

- The Spiritual Generation Interpretation - recently expressed by Dr.Gerardus D. Bouw. " In this view, Jesus was speaking of the generation of God's children. God does not have grandchildren - he only has sons and daughters. They are made His sons and daughters by virtue of the new birth. Therefore, there is only one generation of the spiritual children of God."
- The Offspring Interpretation - provided by church father Jerome "Jesus was referring to the offspring of man, and in particular to the offspring of Jacob"
- The "Generation I Just Spoke Of" Interpretation - A discussion on whether 'this generation' means 'the current generation' or 'the generation I just spoke of'
- The Inceptive Aorist View - "This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled" or “This generation shall not pass, till all these things begin to happen.”?

Then the author offer his own thoughts and conclusions.

As I say I still need to do a proper study of all this myself but I will find this article a good starting point when/if I do [Smile]

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Andromeda
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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:Can you summarise the man's conclusions?
Oops sorry I didn't really do that did I? I would say he finds something of value in all of the partial futurist views.

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
He seems mainly focused on the "generation" question. Does he deal at all with the rest of scripture that anticipates Christ's return soon?

The article only discusses the Olivet discourse, especially Matthew 24:34

[ 16. June 2014, 18:49: Message edited by: Andromeda ]

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In this world you’ll have trouble. But cheer up! I have overcome the world.

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HCH
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Apologetics can be such fun.

Perhaps a way to resolve some of this is to doubt whether the words attributed to Jesus are actually his own words. Maybe the passage is someone's interpolation of his own hope or his own misunderstanding.

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Evensong
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Thanks Andromeda.

While I think the Matthew passage is important, there are tons more passages to choose from and a descent discussion needs to incorporate them all methinks.


quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
Apologetics can be such fun.

Perhaps a way to resolve some of this is to doubt whether the words attributed to Jesus are actually his own words. Maybe the passage is someone's interpolation of his own hope or his own misunderstanding.

Yes. That's one option: Jesus got it wrong.

Personally I think God changing God's mind about timing seems the most reasonable option.

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Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Personally I think God changing God's mind about timing seems the most reasonable option.

I think the more reasonable option is to pay attention to what Jesus said, particularly:

“But about that day or hour no one knows, neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”

and

“The kingdom of God is not coming with things that can be observed; nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There it is!’ For, in fact, the kingdom of God is among you."

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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Evensong
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quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Personally I think God changing God's mind about timing seems the most reasonable option.

I think the more reasonable option is to pay attention to what Jesus said, particularly:

“But about that day or hour no one knows, neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”

and

“The kingdom of God is not coming with things that can be observed; nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There it is!’ For, in fact, the kingdom of God is among you."

But Jesus said other things that do not agree with those two statements

The best the first can explain is that while it was considered imminent, the exact hour was unknown. This does not detract from the sense of urgency throughout the NT

As for the second, there are plenty of other examples of scriptures saying Jesus "will come on the clouds of heaven" and "return as he ascended" and "signs of the age". The Kingdom was not a purely internal, spiritual reality. It was physical one where the dead would be raised in the general resurrection.

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Evensong
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Now here's another beauty about urgency:

1 john 2:18-28

Children, it is the last hour! As you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. From this we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they did not belong to us; for if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But by going out they made it plain that none of them belongs to us. But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and all of you have knowledge.

I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and you know that no lie comes from the truth. Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father; everyone who confesses the Son has the Father also. Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he has promised us, eternal life.

I write these things to you concerning those who would deceive you. As for you, the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and so you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, abide in him. And now, little children, abide in him, so that when he is revealed we may have confidence and not be put to shame before him at his coming.


You can't spiritualise it or ignore it. There has to be another explanation.

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South Coast Kevin
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I think it's possible to read all of that, Evensong, through the lens of it being about the AD70 siege of Jerusalem and destruction of the Temple. The 'coming on the clouds of heaven' imagery refers back to Daniel 7, which arguably can be read as Jesus going to the Father, i.e. being vindicated and enthroned, rather than coming from the Father to earth (this was mentioned upthread, wasn't it?).

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Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
But Jesus said other things that do not agree with those two statements

Exactly, which means we're left to figure out how they all fit together.

quote:
The best the first can explain is that while it was considered imminent, the exact hour was unknown.

I think the best and simplest way to understand Jesus's statement is that he thought the return was imminent, but he admitted that he didn't know for sure when it would be. Thus, he could have been wrong about how soon it would happen. That and that I think his main point is that we should live as though it could happen at any time. And as others have noted, he may have been talking at least in part about the destruction of the Temple.


As for the return in clouds, sure—that's a both/and, not an either/or in the gospels. The kingdom is here now and he will return at some point. Coupled with the point above—that Jesus may have thought the return was imminent but admitted that he didn't know—I just don't see any real conflict there.

Should we take into account that the gospels were written some decades after the resurrection, so that any statement by Jesus that he was returning soon ("the present generation") already had not happened for some time?

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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Martin60
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Jesus was THAT human as we keep seeing, a man of His culture 110% reaching up, out, down, in as no man before possibly could due to His divine nature. A man of botched healing, casual racism, a man working it out as He went along. A man of cryptic, hedged, apocalyptic, hyperbolic, aspirational, political, ambiguous, HUMAN promises fully in tune with His divine nature, inspired by the Spirit 110%.

A man who could no more see the future that hasn't happened than God can.

What's the problem?

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Evensong
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quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
I think it's possible to read all of that, Evensong, through the lens of it being about the AD70 siege of Jerusalem and destruction of the Temple. The 'coming on the clouds of heaven' imagery refers back to Daniel 7, which arguably can be read as Jesus going to the Father, i.e. being vindicated and enthroned, rather than coming from the Father to earth (this was mentioned upthread, wasn't it?).

I don't see the Ascension as a credible interpretation of "coming on the clouds of heaven".

But even if I could, that's still leaves a billion other passages that the fall of Jerusalem would not fit (as I mentioned above - which you did not respond to. The 1 John one can't be either).

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Evensong
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quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
But Jesus said other things that do not agree with those two statements

Exactly, which means we're left to figure out how they all fit together.
Indeed. And its a serious puzzle. One that has perplexed not only the first century Christians, but those of us today.

quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:

quote:
The best the first can explain is that while it was considered imminent, the exact hour was unknown.

I think the best and simplest way to understand Jesus's statement is that he thought the return was imminent, but he admitted that he didn't know for sure when it would be. Thus, he could have been wrong about how soon it would happen. That and that I think his main point is that we should live as though it could happen at any time. And as others have noted, he may have been talking at least in part about the destruction of the Temple.


As for the return in clouds, sure—that's a both/and, not an either/or in the gospels. The kingdom is here now and he will return at some point. Coupled with the point above—that Jesus may have thought the return was imminent but admitted that he didn't know—I just don't see any real conflict there.

The destruction of the temple can be used to explain away some references. A partially realisized eschatology can explain away some more. But the sense of urgency and the sheer amount of others cannot fit into those categories.

The delay of the Parousia is a significant problem even in the New Testament (e.g. Hebrews - those that are falling away waiting). Much more so now 2,000 years later.

[ 18. June 2014, 11:13: Message edited by: Evensong ]

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Martin60
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What's the problem?

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Martin60
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I know I should wait, but hey. I find this all immensely liberating. A great weight has been lifted from me, is being from many others. We continue in the light of Jesus as His brother James did, Peter, Paul and Matthew: making it up as we go along. The naked Church has done nothing but for millennia in its arrogation of power.

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