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Source: (consider it) Thread: Are trigger-warnings really that ridiculous?
Eliab
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quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
(Self-indulgent "When I was your age..." anecdote alert...)

Just as an example of how subjective impressions differ over time and possibly geography. From Virginia, 2010...

Teacher suspended for showing Polanski's Macbeth

Fuck me with a thistle! I watched that with my kids when they were 5 and 7. They watch things on CBBC that are more likely to disturb me.

On the general point - yes, have all the warnings you want. There's nothing wrong with telling people about things that might hurt them. Just don't tell me what I and my family are allowed to watch.

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Albertus
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quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:


Teacher suspended for showing Polanski's Macbeth

Fuck me with a thistle! ...
Think we'd better have a trigger-warning before that's depicted, Eliab. There may be people with a thistle phobia out there...

[Code fix -Gwai]

[ 20. May 2014, 13:15: Message edited by: Gwai ]

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Fineline
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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
As others have said, it's not reasonable to expect people to predict that you might have a trigger issue with something obscure, but mentioning rape, graphic violence or child abuse, say, doesn't seem unreasonable.

It seems that what is being proposed is less about PTSD and more about things that might be offensive to any minority group. So anything with racism, colonialism, ableism, etc. This seems hard to judge objectively - because of course literature from past centuries was written with very different understandings of, say, disability, or race, or gender. Much of it could be seen as sexist in some way or another, for instance. I wonder whether, with these things, it isn't a better idea for the lecturers to be explaining this whole concept to the students - that the literature is likely to be written from very different assumptions than they have, and that it is important to be aware of this while reading, and think about how they could challenge these assumptions. This would be better for critical thinking in general.

I'm also wondering whether the warnings are being given with the idea that the student can opt not to study certain books - whether there is a choice of which books to study - or whether it's just to let them know beforehand. I'm also thinking that, realistically, a student who knows s/he is easily triggered would be likely to google the books beforehand anyway.

The example of the class being shown a video with a graphic rape scene in it seems more pertinent than reading lists - they would have no way to know about that beforehand, and so make an informed decision about whether to attend. And to me it seems common sense that a lecturer should warn a class about that beforehand. When I was studying a health professional degree, we were always warned about lectures and videos on topics that could cause distress, such as death and bereavement, and given an option to speak to the lecturer about not attending.

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Doc Tor
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Some things are meant to traumatise: health and safety films, I'm looking at you.

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Horatio Harumph
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quote:
Originally posted by Huia:
quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
Rape just shows up where you don't expect it.

Art imitates life.
THIS!

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Horatio Harumph
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A really fascinating conversation to sit and read through - thank you to all who have contributed.

As a survivor of abuse as a child, and a separate stranger rape as an adult life for me can be quite challenging. I have massive sleep issues, at times have anxiety issues which I manage reasonably well, and then am prone to spontaneous out of the blue flashbacks once in a while (maybe several times a year) which are very hard to control as they really do come just out of the blue, and the last few especially leave me wondering what actually triggered them in the first place.

Over the last few years I've found a voice/continuing to find my voice in speaking out about issues relating to my experiences, which include talking to people, writing, blogging etc. I'm involved with various things and keep myself up to date with current affairs etc especially ones relating to abuse/rape.

This means I read a lot of stuff. I hear a lot of stuff. Engage with a lot of stuff on these topics - and some stuff has trigger warnings. Some doesn't.

Stuff I have written myself has sometimes been seen as quite triggery for some - I tend not to put official trigger warnings in front of them because I always ensure the titles of what I have written are expect about what the nature of what I have written is about.

Personally I think there needs to be a balance. As someone said above, who knows where the line needs to be drawn, but I think there is a place and a need for TW to be put in front of something - and for the sake on a few words, really, is it that problematic?

However, I think we do have to be careful we don't end up 'trigger warning' everything.

It is a tough one.

I'm reminded of an survivor network I was asked to get involved with, to work on developing their online facilities. They had an online chat room, not dissimilar to the one the SoF used to have (maybe still does?) - I logged in several times as a guest to check out what was happening/how the conversations went etc - I got thrown out. Twice. Because I had unwittingly used words that were 'triggery' to someone in there. When I feedback to the team how it was going I mentioned this, and asked for the 'list' of words that were deemed triggerry and therefor not allowed to be used in said room - there wasn't one ... turned out there were SO many random words and things that would trigger one person or another at any given time that it was almost impossible to have any kind of proper conversation about anything - and there were no markers for anyone. How did I know what would trigger someone else or not? I remember the word butterfly being a trigger word for someone. To me, personally, that was taking it all too far.

BUT I also see a need for them in some areas too.

Anyway, I'm rambling, but thanks for this discussion - its though provoking and I will go away and think on it some more now ...!

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Horatio Harumph
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(apologies for poor spelling and grammar errors in my above post - teaches me for trying to write late at night after a long day - I tried to edit but its been quite a while since I've posted here, and forgot the edit time rule!)

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Fineline
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quote:
Originally posted by Horatio Harumph:
I'm reminded of an survivor network I was asked to get involved with, to work on developing their online facilities. They had an online chat room, not dissimilar to the one the SoF used to have (maybe still does?) - I logged in several times as a guest to check out what was happening/how the conversations went etc - I got thrown out. Twice. Because I had unwittingly used words that were 'triggery' to someone in there.

Reminds me of a child abuse survivor network I was once part of, years ago. I didn't get thrown out, but my posts were edited - the word 'abuse' was changed to 'ab**e'. I found that quite bewildering - everyone had joined the site to talk about abuse, and the name of the site had 'abuse' in it. I genuinely didn't (and still don't) understand why using the word itself would be any more triggering than the act of talking about it. And even if it was, I couldn't see that asterisks would make a difference - everyone could still see what the word was. I'm sure everyone gets triggered in different ways, but for me personally, that sort of censorship was more confusing than anything.
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orfeo

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It seems to me that such an extreme level of avoidance risks sensitizing people even further - making them believe that any kind of exposure is going to be shattering, world-ending stuff.

And that's a key difference from physical allergies, where exposure really CAN be world-ending. With psychological issues, though, it's a lie our brain has constructed. Sometimes, I hasten to add, with very good reason, but it's still a lie.

One of the more successful treatments of phobias involves controlled exposure, teaching the brain that in fact that horrible, terrifying thing isn't going to hurt, allowing the brain to first experience the terror and then to calm down because nothing happens.

I suppose that's an argument for some kind of trigger warnings, preferably tailored to individuals. It seems to me that just slapping warnings all over everything in an environment like a university, which is SUPPOSED to be challenging and thought-provoking, is going too far and won't actually help the people who genuinely need help coping with their psychological stress.

What it isn't is an argument in support of just pulling all the potentially uncomfortable stuff and not showing it.

[ 19. May 2014, 23:01: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Stetson
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Lamb Chopped wrote:

quote:
(e.g. SV for sexual violence, since rape is a trigger for many people who wouldn't have issues with the usual movie shove-him-through-a-highrise-window stuff.)


Yeah, we never got any trigger warnings when they used to run the ads for Sharky's Machine on afternoon TV.
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Timothy the Obscure

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The principle of trigger warnings is reasonable. The application is problematic because triggers are so individual. I once had a client who was triggered by the sweater I was wearing (I immediately took it off and never wore it to work again), and who probably would have been triggered by a movie in which a character wore a similar sweater--but that's not something anyone could anticipate. People being triggered by graphic depictions of violence (sexual or otherwise) is common enough to warrant a warning, though people who can't handle that sort of thing should probably avoid fields like psychology. If being reminded that racism and colonialism have been important factors in human history and persist to this day is unbearable... well, I don't know what you do about that. There's evil in the world--we all need to confront it at some point.

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Liopleurodon

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You have to draw a line somewhere of course. I have a good old-fashioned aspie obsession which I never talk about on SoF although it's pretty apparent to anyone who knows me IRL. It can lead to fairly extreme emotional reactions when harm is done to a certain kind of thing which I guess you guys would all consider an inanimate object but which has a special significance to me. (I'm still tiptoeing around not saying what it is because I don't want to give thousands of anonymous strangers that much power to play with my emotions.) I have occasionally been subjected to material that I find distressing in a way that other people don't, but there's absolutely no way that people could be expected to give a trigger warning for this.

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FCB

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When I have used Lars von Trier's Breaking the Waves in class I have warned students ahead of time that it contains graphic scenes of sexual violence and told them that if any of them had strong objections to watching it I could give them an alternative assignment. On the other hand, when I teach the short stories of Flannery O'Connor, I warn students ahead of time about the racially offensive language, but don't given them the option of not doing the reading.

I'm not sure why my practice differs in the two cases. Perhaps it has to do with the different media -- a sense of film having a more immediate and visceral impact than the printed word -- or perhaps it is the difference between sexual violence and racial epithets. In any case, the distinction seems to make sense to me on some intuitive level. And I would certainly resist the powers that be at my institution taking the decision out of my hands.

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The Silent Acolyte

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quote:
Jade Constable maintains:
I need trigger warnings because of very real experiences, not because I need wrapping in cotton wool. They are necessary for my health in the same way allergy warnings are.

I have decided as I get older that there are many images and themes common in video media which are distinctly damaging to my spiritual health. They include cut or burned flesh—or its anticipation, needle injection, bleeding, sadism or torture (I'm thinking especially of the torture chamber in one of Stieg Larsson's "The Girl Who..." series), some depictions of marital infidelity, physical abuse of an animal—or its anticipation.

I've long ago cut out much audio media for similar reasons, upsetting or dissonant sounds—much rap music.

Unlike Jade Constable, it is not to ward off acute reactions to such material, but it is because of the chronic spiritual corrosion such material inflicts on my spirit.

Further, when in the company of recovering alcoholics and drug addicts, one is ever aware of the multitude of possible triggers for relapse. These triggers may relate to alcohol or drug use itself (merely driving by the Liquorama or outdoor drug market) or may relate to the life experience associated with it (grief for a lost loved one, claustrophobic quarters, loud noises).

So while my initial reaction to these warnings was to scoff with the rest, upon reflection I can see how it could be pastoral and prudent to be aware of these reactions; and, to act prophylactically.

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The Silent Acolyte

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quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
quote:
Stetson suggests:
Teacher suspended for showing Polanski's Macbeth

Fuck me with a thistle! ...
Think we'd better have a trigger-warning before that's depicted, Eliab.
And, a young man's dreams turn to nostalgic images of rusty farm implements.

I miss the alligator. And, ken, too.

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Gwai
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quote:
Originally posted by FCB:
I'm not sure why my practice differs in the two cases. Perhaps it has to do with the different media -- a sense of film having a more immediate and visceral impact than the printed word -- or perhaps it is the difference between sexual violence and racial epithets. In any case, the distinction seems to make sense to me on some intuitive level. And I would certainly resist the powers that be at my institution taking the decision out of my hands.

The distinction makes sense to me too, and not just intuitively: Racial epithets, and racism in general, is horrible, but it's all over our world. It is generally not going to be a trigger that makes people not functional, but a trigger that makes people angry. And honestly we all need to face our own anger. A student who can't handle depictions of sexual violence may not be able to work through what they feel and move past it now (or ever perhaps.) A student who can't work through their own anger at injustice has much much deeper problems than Flannery O'Connor.

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Stetson
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quote:
Fuck me with a thistle!
I nominate this to replace "What, you egg!" for the murder of Macduff's son in any contemporary language version of the play.

And, a propos of not much besides the general topic, it seems to me that there is a certain "tyranny of the majority" factor in trying to determine which traumatic themes warrant trigger-warnings.

My father suffered from a very debilitating medical conidtion that ended his life at 58, after making his last fifteen or so years a hell on earth. It was not a particularly common ailment.

One night, we were watching a comedy show, and the two hosts were singing a funny song about feeling tired and exhausted, which included a hyperbolic line that went "maybe you need [something used to treat my father's condition]".

Suffice to say, it was an awkward moment, probably spilling over into painful for both of us. And I'm pretty sure that, had the line been written as "maybe you need chemotherapy", the question of trigger-warnings would have been moot, since the censors would have edited it out of the script before the show was ever taped(unless it was some kinda dark-humour show, which this definitely wasn't).

In all likelihood, the writers didn't know anyone who suffered from my father's ailment, and the number of sufferers or even friends-of-sufferers in their TV audience would have been in the low dozens, if that. So, it gets by as a respectable joke, whereas a more recognized illness would likely have been nixed.

I should say that, if a joke about my father's illness were writen for a family-hour broadcast in the year 2014, it would probably be cut out, what with "political correctness" and all. My point still remains about the majority-rules aspect of determining what's insensitive and what's not, and that this would likely come into play with trigger warnings as well.

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FCB

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quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
quote:
Originally posted by FCB:
I'm not sure why my practice differs in the two cases. Perhaps it has to do with the different media -- a sense of film having a more immediate and visceral impact than the printed word -- or perhaps it is the difference between sexual violence and racial epithets. In any case, the distinction seems to make sense to me on some intuitive level. And I would certainly resist the powers that be at my institution taking the decision out of my hands.

The distinction makes sense to me too, and not just intuitively: Racial epithets, and racism in general, is horrible, but it's all over our world. It is generally not going to be a trigger that makes people not functional, but a trigger that makes people angry. And honestly we all need to face our own anger. A student who can't handle depictions of sexual violence may not be able to work through what they feel and move past it now (or ever perhaps.) A student who can't work through their own anger at injustice has much much deeper problems than Flannery O'Connor.
Thanks. You've helped me clarify my thinking about my own practice.

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