homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   »   » Oblivion   » The microchip is the mark of the beast (Page 2)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2  3 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: The microchip is the mark of the beast
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

 - Posted      Profile for Eutychus   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
This good-natured and nostalgic ramble through the more arcane backwoods of pre-tribulationism is all very well, but as I pointed out earlier on, it seems to me that there's a lot of eschatalogical room between that and a purely historicist view.

If nobody here adopts either extreme, mere ridicule is not enough to address the issue of how passages like that relating the mark of the beast are to be understood.

If they bear absolutely no relation to technological progress and how it is being used or envisaged, that case needs to be made.

[ 19. May 2014, 18:44: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641

 - Posted      Profile for chris stiles   Email chris stiles   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
The 1980s: Countdown to Armageddon really cheap.

The Grand-daddy of all these books 'The Dispensational Truth' is available in complete online:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/study/Larkin/dt/index.cfm

Including such charts as this:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/assets/images/study/larkin/dispensationalTruth/c01.jpg

I love how the categories are 'How Jews See it' "How Post Mills see it" "How God sees it".

Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641

 - Posted      Profile for chris stiles   Email chris stiles   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:

If nobody here adopts either extreme, mere ridicule is not enough to address the issue of how passages like that relating the mark of the beast are to be understood.

If they bear absolutely no relation to technological progress and how it is being used or envisaged, that case needs to be made.

I'm not entirely sure how to understand the two paragraphs above - as nobody here appears to adopt either view I'm not sure why we have to deal with that particular reading of those passages. As a side note; I presume by full historic you mean 'full preterism' - which tbh I have only ever encountered on the internet.

On the level of those particular verses, I feel that a largely symbolic reading of them is indicated by the text - including the language used, and the parallels drawn with other parts of scripture.

Now taking the view - for a moment - that these symbolic readings are merely a shadow of the real thing when such a regime will be put in place literally. I'd have to say that I hope that all Christians would oppose such a thing purely on the basis of being good citizens (before we even got to the religious implication), secondly if that reading assumes such a thing is indeed 'inevitable' then worrying about overly seems misplaced.

I personally take a rather dim view of these kind of readings, because it seems to me that their purpose is largely religious titillation - whereas on privacy issues those same groups who purport to fear such developments are completely silent.

I mean, when was the last time you heard any church leader in the US talk about the NSA revelations that have been in the news, and actually deal with them seriously, rather than as a device to scare the faithful (which I expect is rather rare anyway, because these were 'our' spies).

Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

 - Posted      Profile for Eutychus   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
I mean, when was the last time you heard any church leader in the US talk about the NSA revelations that have been in the news, and actually deal with them seriously, rather than as a device to scare the faithful (which I expect is rather rare anyway, because these were 'our' spies).

That's sort of the question I was trying to ask, really.

If it is not just (sorry) preterism, then I think there is material in Revelation which could form a legitimate basis for churches addressing the kind of issue you raise, from a non-titillatory point of view. But I'm having trouble seeing how such an approach would avoid arguing in favour of a complete withdrawal from society.

--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Steve Langton
Shipmate
# 17601

 - Posted      Profile for Steve Langton   Email Steve Langton   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
My own position on this is 'A-millennial' (or more accurately, that I believe the millennium not to be a literal 1000 years but a symbolic representation of the age of the gospel.

That goes with interpreting Revelation in a 'parallelist' manner. For a full version see the book "More than Conquerors" by William Hendriksen - I have a late 1960s IVP edition, but it's probably still in print. Basically each section of Revelation is taken to refer to pretty much the whole gospel age from different angles. It would be a bit like one of those films that follows a group of disparate individuals in parallel through their day till everything is resolved when they come together in a train crash or some such at the end. Note that the sections are 'marked off' by a repetitive 'chorus' about every three chapters.

One real life point which impressed me quite a bit was to come across a late 19thC edict from the Russian Orthodox Church dealing with heretics - aimed mainly I understand at 'Old Believers', Russian Orthodox followers who had refused to accept a kind of modernisation of liturgy etc (a bit like the later RC bishop Lefebvre). The edict declares that it will be made impossible for these people to live in Russia - they will not be able to buy and sell, to own land, and so forth, and their children will be taken from them. All sounding very like the edict put out by the Beast against those who do not bear 'The Mark'. I don't know whether there may be a more developed thing of that kind nearer the 'last days' but I think edicts like that and similar in his own time would be what John had in mind.

Posts: 2245 | From: Stockport UK | Registered: Mar 2013  |  IP: Logged
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641

 - Posted      Profile for chris stiles   Email chris stiles   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:

If it is not just (sorry) preterism, then I think there is material in Revelation which could form a legitimate basis for churches addressing the kind of issue you raise, from a non-titillatory point of view. But I'm having trouble seeing how such an approach would avoid arguing in favour of a complete withdrawal from society.

I'm not sure where you picked up that I was arguing from complete withdrawal from society? Or maybe I misread you.

I'm just saying that there are sensible reasons for opposing these things as good citizens - even before we get to the religious aspects of this.

Furthermore, as we do so in the public square we have to do so on the basis of some kind of natural law because an argument based on Revelation is going to be fairly incoherent to those who don't share those beliefs.

Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644

 - Posted      Profile for Beeswax Altar   Email Beeswax Altar   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
This good-natured and nostalgic ramble through the more arcane backwoods of pre-tribulationism is all very well, but as I pointed out earlier on, it seems to me that there's a lot of eschatalogical room between that and a purely historicist view.

If nobody here adopts either extreme, mere ridicule is not enough to address the issue of how passages like that relating the mark of the beast are to be understood.

If they bear absolutely no relation to technological progress and how it is being used or envisaged, that case needs to be made.

Much of Revelation is clearly symbolism recognizable to the first century church. Figuring out what it meant to the original readers is key. What did they think it predicted? From there, we can attempt to discern how Revelation is relevant today. Like I said, the microchip thing would give me pause.

Coincidentally, I'm plan on doing a bible study over the Book of Revelation this Fall.

--------------------
Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan

Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Eutychus. You have my sympathy. I've lost my side bet on any eschatology whatsoever. I'm post-historicist. Post-futurist. Therefore preterist. All I can know is what was going on at the time of writing. Like God the Father can only be known in Jesus, not in much older Jewish myths.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

 - Posted      Profile for Eutychus   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Steve Langton, I think I have more commentaries on Revelation than any other book in the Bible! I have More Than Conquerors, Michael Wilcock's I Saw Heaven Opened, a dispensational tome in French by one John Alexander, plus a cassette series by Roger Forster.

Forster (pre-millenial) has in my view the most uplifting approach (Revelation is first and foremost about worship) and Wilcock (amillenial) makes the most sense (at least to me). I have at various points in my life been most things except dispensational pre-millenialist. These days I'm more of what a pastor I knew referred to as a "pan-millenialist": hoping it will all pan out in the end.

quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
I'm not sure where you picked up that I was arguing from complete withdrawal from society? Or maybe I misread you.

You misread me. What I was trying to say is that the mark of the beast episode, if it is not purely symbolic and/or preterist, seems to indicate a cut-off point at which the faithful have to withdraw from society if only to keep on being able to have food.

Steve Langton has referred to one such later historical incident and inferred that you don't have to be a dispensationalist pre-tribulation rapturist to see it as echoing Revelation. And even allowing for some literary pareidolia, I find it hard not to see a parallel.

What I do find odd though is that this seems to indicate there is a point at which christians are supposed to stop engaging with society (as Jesus enjoined) and pull back, for their own (eternal) safety.

Is that any clearer?!

[ 20. May 2014, 05:14: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641

 - Posted      Profile for chris stiles   Email chris stiles   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Just to say that the parallel with the Old Believers is imperfect - that was a system imposed on them, not one they chose themselves.

Anyway ..

quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:

What I do find odd though is that this seems to indicate there is a point at which christians are supposed to stop engaging with society (as Jesus enjoined) and pull back, for their own (eternal) safety.

Is that any clearer?!

Well, the point surely was that the original audience would have understood it as having primarily spiritual (rather than economic) parallels - specifically on the placement of the various marks.

So in that sense, if you can discern a spiritual import behind some of these technologies, the you should in conscience refuse them.

OTOH these technologies (or at least their specific implementation) are worth opposing in the public square because as Christians we have a duty to be good citizens, and in a democratic context that requires putting power under scrutiny.

Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644

 - Posted      Profile for Beeswax Altar   Email Beeswax Altar   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Why do you say surely? Eutychus is likely right that means withdrawing more and more from society. Given our own current understanding of Christianity, we might find that hard to accept. However, if that is what John the Revelator (I like the song) meant, then Revelation could be interpreted as giving signs to the church in any generation about when to withdraw. The questions would then always be is now such a time and how do we withdraw.

--------------------
Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan

Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379

 - Posted      Profile for Belle Ringer   Email Belle Ringer   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I have a friend who envisions the "neither buy nor sell without taking the mark of the beast" as the formation of a separate society, Christians living in the midst of secular society but not part of it. We thrive without needing to buy or sell because we support each other. One grows crops and gives it to whatever other Christians need food; another is a carpenter and helps repair houses of Christians.

This is somewhat like the ethnic groups in some cities who mostly use each other's businesses. In some USA communities new immigrants from south of the order never need to learn English, they can do all they need within the Spanish-speaking community. Think of those Jewish families who ignore Christmas in spite of the culture around them being inundated with it. That mainstream cultural activity is irrelevant to their own lives.

I am far from convinced, because I'm uncomfortable with the idea that at some point we are no longer to see "not one of us" as our neighbor. Give food to Christians only, ignore the starving Samaritan?

But it's an intriguing idea, "they don't bother us and we don't bother them" while living next door to them.

(My own interpretation is no longer that literal.)

But as to when should churches separate from the local culture - long ago. Too many churches pick up and reflect some secular cultural values that are inconsistent with Christianity (as I understand it). I'll mention one incident.

Decades ago I gave my one time bonus check to a specific evangelistic association whose work and materials I appreciated (with a note it was a one-time gift). They sent me a receipt - and special invitation to attend their conferences and be seated in special seating for major donors. Boy did that raise my eyebrows! But a lot of churches give some special honor - quiet or public - to the rich members, if only because they think they have to cater to the rich for their own financial survival.

(Local Methodist district meetings here, the pastors of churches that paid the full yearly apportionment get seated in a special place. Might sound like proper recognition of pastors who are doing their job right, 'til you look behind the scenes and see the distorted behavior caused by focusing on money for honor.)

Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641

 - Posted      Profile for chris stiles   Email chris stiles   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Why do you say surely? Eutychus is likely right that means withdrawing more and more from society.

Because the emphasis seems to be on the marks which are a direct repudiation of the 'true marks' of the believer, with the economic consequences as second order effects.

So I'm not disagreeing with Eutychus necessarily, however adopting some of these technologies do not - in and of themselves - constitute a rejection of being a believer - or at least it has to be shown that they do.

Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
Steve Langton
Shipmate
# 17601

 - Posted      Profile for Steve Langton   Email Steve Langton   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
by chris stiles;
quote:
Just to say that the parallel with the Old Believers is imperfect - that was a system imposed on them, not one they chose themselves.

Not really suggesting the parallel is perfect; it's an example of a state religion making life difficult for dissenters in a way that at least echoes the situation in Revelation, and similar examples have been seen elsewhere, including when the Roman state attempted to impose emperor worship in the days of the early church.
Posts: 2245 | From: Stockport UK | Registered: Mar 2013  |  IP: Logged
Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379

 - Posted      Profile for Belle Ringer   Email Belle Ringer   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Langton:
An example of a state religion making life difficult for dissenters in a way that at least echoes the situation in Revelation, and similar examples have been seen elsewhere, including when the Roman state attempted to impose emperor worship in the days of the early church.

North Korea today? Bow to the statue of "Dear Leader" or go to prison. Whatever happened back then, still happens, only the location and name of the leader change.

[code]

[ 21. May 2014, 21:11: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
shamwari
Shipmate
# 15556

 - Posted      Profile for shamwari   Email shamwari   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Revelation got into the Canon by the skin of its teeth and by virtue of a bit of horse trading between East and West.

Never mind microchips.

Just read Wm Barclay and all is revealed.

Posts: 1914 | From: from the abyss of misunderstanding | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152

 - Posted      Profile for Garasu   Email Garasu   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Nevertheless, it got in. Either you accept the Canon, or you accept that any text could count...

--------------------
"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.

Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

 - Posted      Profile for no prophet's flag is set so...   Author's homepage   Email no prophet's flag is set so...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Much of Revelation is clearly symbolism recognizable to the first century church. Figuring out what it meant to the original readers is key. What did they think it predicted? From there, we can attempt to discern how Revelation is relevant today. Like I said, the microchip thing would give me pause.

Coincidentally, I'm plan on doing a bible study over the Book of Revelation this Fall.

ISTM that Revelation, in its general idea of an end and tribulation etc, it's the general theme and thrust of far too much science science fiction and zombie movies.

Regarding your bible study, I'd be highly interested in knowing anything you'd care to share about it. Never seen a bible study on this book.

--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152

 - Posted      Profile for Garasu   Email Garasu   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Never seen a bible study on this book.

A start?

--------------------
"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.

Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012  |  IP: Logged
Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597

 - Posted      Profile for Stetson     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
no prophet wrote:

quote:
ISTM that Revelation, in its general idea of an end and tribulation etc, it's the general theme and thrust of far too much science science fiction and zombie movies.


Plus, even in the original, never mind the Grade Z cinematic knock-offs, its over-run with chest-thumping triumphalism. Say what you will about Hal Lindsey and Jack Chick, they actually have a pretty good handle on the emotional themes permeating the book.

One of the kitschy tracts I've checked out in the past few days announced thusly...

"On the cross, God's love was for his enemies. Now, it's for his friends!!!"

Like the housewife crowing to the jilted mistress: "Oh yeah? You think he really loves you? Ha! He's coming back to ME now, you shameless tramp!"

Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
How does this that I posted upstream annoyingly hijack this thread?

"And the end and middle delimiters in bar codes are NOT 6 6 6."

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

 - Posted      Profile for Eutychus   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Why is that a hijack? I know barcodes don't have 666 in them and was never worried about them. But start wanting to implant some RFID chip in me and I will be worried - for more reasons than one, as chris stiles has pointed out.

--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I don't know but that's what Beeswax Altar says elsewhere.

Happy to RFID everyone and all wear Google Glass.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

 - Posted      Profile for Eutychus   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I can't see where he says that. But there you are.

--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
In 'another house', sorry, not anadromously.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

 - Posted      Profile for cliffdweller     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
Including such charts as this:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/assets/images/study/larkin/dispensationalTruth/c01.jpg

I love how the categories are 'How Jews See it' "How Post Mills see it" "How God sees it".

[Yipee] Seriously! How fun is that! And I love how, even tho this is apparently produced by some group that doesn't want to be identified with dispensationalists (inferred from the fact that the premillennial chart is not the "how God sees it" one) yet the entire presupposition is rooted in a dispensationalist worldview: that everyone-- Jew, pre-trib, post-trib-- everyone-- including sees history unfolding in distinct "ages" (dispensations). And that the only "right" way of seeing things can, of course, be described as God's way. Utterly delightful! [Killing me]

[code]

[ 22. May 2014, 04:56: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

 - Posted      Profile for cliffdweller     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:

Forster (pre-millenial) has in my view the most uplifting approach (Revelation is first and foremost about worship)

Eugene Peterson takes a similar position in his excellent commentary on Rev., Reversed Thunder.:

quote:
“It is difficult to worship God instead of his messengers. And so people get interested in everything in this book except God, losing themselves in symbolhunting, intrigue with numbers, speculating with frenzied imaginations on times and seasons, despite Jesus' severe stricture against it (Acts 1:7)… nothing is more explicit in this book than that it is about God. It is the revelation of Jesus Christ, not the end of the world, not the identity of the antichrist, not the timetable of history... Nothing has meaning apart from his lordship.”
On the note re: withdrawl from society I rather like this quote from Peterson's book:

quote:
"People who are preoccupied with the future never seem to be interested in preparing for the future, which is something that people do by feeding the poor, working for justice, loving their neighbors, developing a virtuous and compassionate life in he name of Jesus.”


[ 21. May 2014, 21:59: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Avila
Shipmate
# 15541

 - Posted      Profile for Avila   Email Avila   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:


(Local Methodist district meetings here, the pastors of churches that paid the full yearly apportionment get seated in a special place. Might sound like proper recognition of pastors who are doing their job right, 'til you look behind the scenes and see the distorted behavior caused by focusing on money for honor.)

Round here reward would be a dispensation (permission) to be somewhere other than the district synod!
[Biased]

--------------------
http://aweebleswonderings.blogspot.com/

Posts: 1305 | From: west midlands | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

 - Posted      Profile for Eutychus   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
That sounds great, cliffdweller; my experience ties in with the second quote, too.

I still get worried about the latest techno/retail/cashless/implant solutions though. There is Bablyon in Revelation as well as Jerusalem, after all.

--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641

 - Posted      Profile for chris stiles   Email chris stiles   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
[Yipee] Seriously! How fun is that! And I love how, even tho this is apparently produced by some group that doesn't want to be identified with dispensationalists (inferred from the fact that the premillennial chart is not the "how God sees it" one)

I think you misunderstand. It's the historic-premillennial view that is being described there ("How God Sees it" is the dispensational view - and Larkin's book was kind of the grand daddy of all the books that followed).
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641

 - Posted      Profile for chris stiles   Email chris stiles   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
That sounds great, cliffdweller; my experience ties in with the second quote, too.

I still get worried about the latest techno/retail/cashless/implant solutions though. There is Bablyon in Revelation as well as Jerusalem, after all.

Personally I think it won't be long before most people are 'implanted' with some kind of technology - be that something medical which gains additional functions, or something else entirely. I don't find this necessarily problematic - though as I noted above there are worrying trends.

I think that if Revelation is clear about anything it's that the acceptance of this technology was in some way tied to a subverting of worship. Of course, a wider application of this point could be made (see Postman and others).

My worry is that by focusing solely on the overtly religious dangers - or painting things in that light, we readily ignore the more subtle dangers and/or don't actually enter into intelligent discussion about these topics. In that sense the Christian critique ends up being reactionary in both senses of the word (Lindsay rather than Ellul?)

[I could draw parallels here - but the parallel I came up with was contentious enough that I didn't want to risk a tangent]

[ 22. May 2014, 08:54: Message edited by: chris stiles ]

Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

 - Posted      Profile for cliffdweller     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
That sounds great, cliffdweller; my experience ties in with the second quote, too.

I still get worried about the latest techno/retail/cashless/implant solutions though. There is Bablyon in Revelation as well as Jerusalem, after all.

My take-away from Peterson's quote it to continually ask myself, when Jesus returns, where will he look for me? Among the poor. So, in any given week, what are the odds that he'll find me there, among the poor, rather than in some other individualistic/ consumerist/ ambitious pursuit? Sadly, not that great.

Perhaps the "mark of the beast" is the marks of the dominant culture-- which in this case might be selfishness, consumerism, individualism or (from Walter Wink) adoption of the "myth of redemptive violence".

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

 - Posted      Profile for cliffdweller     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
[Yipee] Seriously! How fun is that! And I love how, even tho this is apparently produced by some group that doesn't want to be identified with dispensationalists (inferred from the fact that the premillennial chart is not the "how God sees it" one)

I think you misunderstand. It's the historic-premillennial view that is being described there ("How God Sees it" is the dispensational view - and Larkin's book was kind of the grand daddy of all the books that followed).
Ah, that makes sense. I didn't read the charts closely enough nor have I bothered to learn each group's paradigm enough to have caught that. Still, I think the point remains that the dispensationalist author of the chart not only presumes "God thinks like me", but also believes that everyone "thinks like me"-- i.e. that history is divided into various distinct dispensations. I just find that amusing.

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641

 - Posted      Profile for chris stiles   Email chris stiles   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:

I still get worried about the latest techno/retail/cashless/implant solutions though. There is Bablyon in Revelation as well as Jerusalem, after all.

I had a thought today, while reading on a different topic - it's a little inchoate at the moment, but I'll post it for consideration.

What if the religious part of the danger with these particular technologies lie less in ability to corrupt 'worship' and more in the temptation to attempt to acquire a power via the surveillance society - omniscience - that properly belongs only to God?

Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597

 - Posted      Profile for Stetson     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:

I still get worried about the latest techno/retail/cashless/implant solutions though. There is Bablyon in Revelation as well as Jerusalem, after all.

I had a thought today, while reading on a different topic - it's a little inchoate at the moment, but I'll post it for consideration.

What if the religious part of the danger with these particular technologies lie less in ability to corrupt 'worship' and more in the temptation to attempt to acquire a power via the surveillance society - omniscience - that properly belongs only to God?

But, by that logic, you could say that any effort at acquiring deeper knowledge of the world around us(or, for that matter, about peoples' personal behaviours) is an attempt to acquire omniscience. X-rays, space probes, tax audits, etc, all give us more knowledge about things.

There are arguments against state incursion into peoples' private lives, but I don't think they are to be found in the Book Of Revelation. The writer practically ejaculates when envisioning the violent destruction of the unfaithful. It's not exactly a treatise in defense of individual rights and freedoms.

My own view is that the passage about 666 is referring to a specific political leader, either one who had already been in power at the time of writing, or whom "John" thought would be coming to power at some point in the future, and whom he seeks to warn the reader against. The Beast is no more a stand-in for Evil In General than is a mugshot on a Wanted poster.

Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

 - Posted      Profile for Eutychus   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
What if the religious part of the danger with these particular technologies lie less in ability to corrupt 'worship' and more in the temptation to attempt to acquire a power via the surveillance society - omniscience - that properly belongs only to God?

I think the whole premise of Babylon, from Genesis to Revelation, is that it is trying to be like God, drawing on its own strength.

I find CS Lewis' so-called sci-fi trilogy makes a lot of sense, and it certainly works along similar lines.

--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Alex Cockell

Ship’s penguin
# 7487

 - Posted      Profile for Alex Cockell     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Ohhh - remember Texe MArrs's stuff?

His Wiki page

I had Mystery Mark of the New Age, Crossway Books, 1988, and thinking back - it was all a bit batshit insane..

But you're right - it was on the back of Hal Lindsey.

Posts: 2146 | From: Reading, Berkshire UK | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597

 - Posted      Profile for Stetson     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
But you're right - it was on the back of Hal Lindsey.


End-time Christian writers often walk a fine line between philo-semtitism and anti-semitism, and it sounds as if Marss was on the opposite side from Lindsey there.

I don't think Lindsey, who is(present tense; he is still active) a hardcore Christian Zionist would sell the Protocols or preach that Ashkenazi Jews are descended from Khazars, as Marss apparently does.

--------------------
I have the power...Lucifer is lord!

Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379

 - Posted      Profile for Belle Ringer   Email Belle Ringer   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Perhaps the "mark of the beast" is the marks of the dominant culture-- which in this case might be selfishness, consumerism, individualism or (from Walter Wink) adoption of the "myth of redemptive violence".

Yes, the forehead and hand are what you intentionally think and do. It's got to be talking about that, not some vaguely symbolic act that people can be fooled into thinking just the modern version of ID cards or cash, or that could be done to you in your sleep.

On a different topic [Smile] I distrust the idea of implanted chips simply because technology is unreliable. If they can distort your computer or phone with viruses, why not your chip? Every so often a credit card doesn't scan and they have to key in all the numbers, how do they key in the chip info if it fails?

Not counting the problem that an under-skin thing is going to cause allergic response or infections in some people. These days of superbugs and dying antibiotics, I'm not letting anyone do anything invasive that I can live without.

Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641

 - Posted      Profile for chris stiles   Email chris stiles   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:

There are arguments against state incursion into peoples' private lives, but I don't think they are to be found in the Book Of Revelation. The

I'm not trying to draw direct lessons from Revelation. I'm just trying to think about what a Christian critique of the technologies Eutychus mentioned would actually be.

Because I don't think in this particular case that the parallels to Revelation necessarily applies.

Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

 - Posted      Profile for cliffdweller     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Perhaps the "mark of the beast" is the marks of the dominant culture-- which in this case might be selfishness, consumerism, individualism or (from Walter Wink) adoption of the "myth of redemptive violence".

Yes, the forehead and hand are what you intentionally think and do. It's got to be talking about that, not some vaguely symbolic act that people can be fooled into thinking just the modern version of ID cards or cash, or that could be done to you in your sleep.

Uh, so not really a "yes" then, since what you're suggesting is something entirely different than what I was saying...

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379

 - Posted      Profile for Belle Ringer   Email Belle Ringer   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Perhaps the "mark of the beast" is the marks of the dominant culture-- which in this case might be selfishness, consumerism, individualism or (from Walter Wink) adoption of the "myth of redemptive violence".

Yes, the forehead and hand are what you intentionally think and do. It's got to be talking about that, not some vaguely symbolic act that people can be fooled into thinking just the modern version of ID cards or cash, or that could be done to you in your sleep.

Uh, so not really a "yes" then, since what you're suggesting is something entirely different than what I was saying...
OK, then I'm not understanding your comment. Selfishness, consumerism, individualism aren't shown in what we thing and do? People who reject these values think and behave differently than the selfish consumerist individualistic culture encourages. That's where I was coming from.

Love to hear more about your concept.

Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

 - Posted      Profile for cliffdweller     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Oh, OK, I follow you now...

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597

 - Posted      Profile for Stetson     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Apparently, Left Behind has been made into a film, starring Nicholas Cage.

I had to do a double-check to see if this was really the LaHaye/Jenkins book, and it is.

Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Nick Cage. Sigh. I remember when he made decent films. This'll gross him more than all the rest put together I'm sure. Public taste being what it is. American at that.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238

 - Posted      Profile for Crœsos     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Bumping this thread because I ran across this, and given the current American evangelical freakout over contraception (see this thread), it seemed like the perfect storm of religious and sexual anxieties.

quote:
New implantable, remote-controlled contraceptive lasts 16 years
A new candidate for the perfect contraceptive has surfaced - a wireless, remote-controlled implant that can be turned on and off at the push of a button.

Developed by US tech start-up MicroCHIPS, the device will begin pre-clinical testing in 2015. If the testing is a success, the device will be on the market by 2018.

According to Gwen Kinkead at MIT Technology Review, the device is just 20 x 20 x 7 mm, which is small enough to be implanted under the skin of the buttocks, upper arm, or abdomen. It uses a synthetic hormone called levonorgestrel, which is already featured in many current contraceptives, and it dispenses 30 mg of it per day via a special heat-activated seal.

"MicroCHIPS invented a hermetic [air-tight] titanium and platinum seal on the reservoirs containing the levonorgestrel. Passing an electric current through the seal from an internal battery melts it temporarily, allowing a small dose of the hormone to diffuse out each day,” says Kinkead.

Microchips AND contraception AND increased female autonomy?!? If this thing works it sounds like conservative Christians' worst nightmare!

--------------------
Humani nil a me alienum puto

Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716

 - Posted      Profile for ChastMastr   Author's homepage   Email ChastMastr   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
But if there is a 666 tattooed on the forehead or implanted in the arm, my ignorant reading says it's always a knowing intentional endorsement of a clear value system that anyone who even pretends to believe in a loving God says is wrong, deadly wrong, soul-destroyingly wrong, kill your neighbor's baby to feed to the pigs wrong.

It won't be a puzzling issue of "feeding my family is good so I guess I have to do it even though I'm a little disturbed about what it all means." That's just daily life on many jobs in the corporate world.

I agree. I do wonder if it might even be (gasp! In Revelation? No, really?) symbolic: Having the number of the Beast on one's head or hand might mean something more to do with serving the Devil in one's thoughts or actions than a conveniently avoidable tattoo or microchip. And certainly "buying and selling" in our (and perhaps any) economic system allows for a lot of callous mistreatment of, say, the poor for one's own gain, so it could even be about something predatory and self-serving--or just callous and uncaring or willfully ignorant--in our daily business.

--------------------
My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716

 - Posted      Profile for ChastMastr   Author's homepage   Email ChastMastr   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Oh. I hadn't read the rest of the thread before posting. [Hot and Hormonal] So I'm not the only one to think of this--and thus far I hadn't heard of other people saying it, so I was wondering if people would roll their eyes at me, but maybe not. [Smile]

--------------------
My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Antisocial Alto
Shipmate
# 13810

 - Posted      Profile for Antisocial Alto   Email Antisocial Alto   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Bumping this thread because I ran across this, and given the current American evangelical freakout over contraception (see this thread), it seemed like the perfect storm of religious and sexual anxieties.

quote:
New implantable, remote-controlled contraceptive lasts 16 years
...

...small enough to be implanted under the skin of the buttocks...

Microchips AND contraception AND increased female autonomy?!? If this thing works it sounds like conservative Christians' worst nightmare!
Yeah, they aren't real big fans of putting it in the butt either.
Posts: 601 | From: United States | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564

 - Posted      Profile for Leorning Cniht   Email Leorning Cniht   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:

Microchips AND contraception AND increased female autonomy?!? If this thing works it sounds like conservative Christians' worst nightmare!

Well, this thing dispenses levonorgestrel, which is the synthetic hormone in Plan B, so presumably Hobby Lobby doesn't like it (although it wasn't clear to me that they object to all contraceptives containing levonorgestrel, so their stupidity might not even have the semblance of surface consistency).

This is basically Norplant with a switch.

Personally, if it was me, I'd want to know a lot more about the security of the remote and about unalterable audit trails in the device itself before I relied on it. Specifically, I'd want to be sure that I could access a dispensary log and a settings log, so that I could verify that the device was operating in the way that I intended.

Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2  3 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
follow ship of fools on twitter
buy your ship of fools postcards
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
 
  ship of fools