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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: A misunderstood man?
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
It might tell you something about the people who wrote the manifesto in 2010 (though probably not as much as you think) but not necessarily a lot about their activists in 2014, and certainly not much about people prepared to vote for them tomorrow.
Their manifesto was updated this year, and it's UKIP that are under discussion, not the people who might vote for them tomorrow.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
The liberal media's approach is self-defeating. If there is anything likely to increase UKIP's vote it's this dirty tricks campaign. I am amazed at how thick and stupid the mainstream media actually is at times.
Can I ask for clarification here: are we including the Mail and Telegraph under liberal media?
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
It might tell you something about the people who wrote the manifesto in 2010 (though probably not as much as you think) but not necessarily a lot about their activists in 2014, and certainly not much about people prepared to vote for them tomorrow.
Their manifesto was updated this year, and it's UKIP that are under discussion, not the people who might vote for them tomorrow.
Terribly sorry I didn't realise that the terms of the discussion were yours to set. My mistake.
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
Can I ask for clarification here: are we including the Mail and Telegraph under liberal media?
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
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EtymologicalEvangelical
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# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd
Can I ask for clarification here: are we including the Mail and Telegraph under liberal media?
Why not? The word 'liberal' covers a multitude of sins, as I am sure you know (assuming you know the range of meanings of the word).
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
Can I ask for clarification here: are we including the Mail and Telegraph under liberal media?
UKIP are, as has been noted, simply taking the last 10 years of Daily Heil headlines and turning them in policy.
Now the Right-wing vote has fractured, and the Right-wing press is having conniptions over it. You reap what you sow.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd
Can I ask for clarification here: are we including the Mail and Telegraph under liberal media?
Why not? The word 'liberal' covers a multitude of sins, as I am sure you know (assuming you know the range of meanings of the word).
Well, yes, but I'm buggered if I can think of one in unqualified common use that'd cover the Mail, even if you could make an argument for the Torygraph being economically on the side of classical liberalism, at least in its Thatherite incarnation.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
The liberal media's approach is self-defeating. If there is anything likely to increase UKIP's vote it's this dirty tricks campaign. I am amazed at how thick and stupid the mainstream media actually is at times.
Can I ask for clarification here: are we including the Mail and Telegraph under liberal media?
I don't know if anyone else around these parts is a Private Eye reader, but I've been greatly enjoying its "street of shame" pages over the past couple of weeks, chronicling as they are the newish Editor in Chief of the Telegraph's battles against reality. Allegedly, according to the Eye, not content with "pruning" the journalists on staff, a series of readers' focus groups have been held which, sadly (and unbelievably), have not as hoped supported the belief that it would be possible to reposition the editorial line of the Telegraph as right-on-metropolitan-London-liberal....
For those not totally familiar with how the Eye works, this is being reported in the news pages at the front, *Not* the satire pages at the back - it's really happening...
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
And every racist proverbally has several best friends who are black.
Yes, so they all say.
I think there's a business opportunity there. An organisation for putting right-wing political candidates in contact with members of minority groups (black, Muslim, disabled, all the varieties of queer...) who are prepared to rent out their friendship on a per hour basis. Sort of like an escort agency, but more immoral.
I know you're joking, but, trust me, there are lots of political consultants who, while perhaps not actually hiring out the minorities, are steadfast about advising their right-wing clients to be seen in their company. Not to mention expert at knowing how to arrange the photo-ops.
A couple of years back, a ukip-ish populist party in my home province of Alberta lost an election they had been expected to win, partly as a result of racially offensive comments made by one of their candidates, which were regarded by some as reflecting overall party attitudes.
A few weeks back, their leader decked herself out in a hijab to give a speech on relgiious tolerance to a group of Muslims.
[ 21. May 2014, 15:22: Message edited by: Stetson ]
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Migration in the EU works both ways. UK citizens are free to work elsewhere in Europe, and many do.
If there are so many great jobs for people to do elsewhere in Europe, why are so many people from elsewhere in Europe coming to Britain in search of work? Why aren't they just taking the jobs that exist where they already are?
A Polish HGV driver moving to Britain to drive HGVs must be doing so because either (a) there aren't any HGV-driving jobs in Poland or (b) HGV driving jobs in the UK pay considerably more. So what good will your "just go and work somewhere else" do for the British HGV driver who just lost his job to the Pole?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Migration in the EU works both ways. UK citizens are free to work elsewhere in Europe, and many do.
If there are so many great jobs for people to do elsewhere in Europe, why are so many people from elsewhere in Europe coming to Britain in search of work? Why aren't they just taking the jobs that exist where they already are?
More of them are going to Germany. And substantial numbers are going to Italy and France. There are proportionally more internal EU migrants in Spain, Sweden, Austria and Belgium than there are in the UK (figures for 2010, so they'll have changed).
In 2012, EU migration was 148,000 to the UK. UK citizens leaving the country was 131,000. I'll let you do the maths, and you can decide if that works out as "so many".
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Forward the New Republic
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
Well haven't you just gone and stereotyped people who live in tiny villages. Do you really think that all of us rural types are completely unsophisticated, dense and xenophobic?
Only some of the members of the cricket club in one small village on one occasion. And certainly there was no xenophobia, nor were they dense or as far as I know unsophisticated. Just, jumping to an unwarranted conclusion on the basis of a single feature. As Mr Farage sometimes does.
The vicar asked B's wife if she would like to sing with the choir since he had heard she sang with a large and successful London choral group and there was nothing equivalent nearby. He said that obviously she might have religious objections, but Jews, like everyone else, have all sorts of views on every subject: she was welcome if she wanted to join but he would understand if she didn't. That seems a very good and sensible response.
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
So I will respond.
Racist - he did say he didn't want a Hungarian living next door. That counts as racist to me, and he does seem identify people by their nationalities quite a lot.
Xenophobic - He so often talks about people like "Hungarians and Romanians", dismissing the "others". In fact, he seems to love stoking the fear of "them".
Vile policies - the party does want to roll back employment law by decades. In fact, back to a time when the wealthy did very nicely, at the expense of most others.
It is a very cheap tacky shot to say "You liberals don't like others disagreeing with you". I know other people disagree with me. Everyone disagrees with me. I don't have a problem with that. I have a problem with people who preach hatred, be it the Phelps or the Farage.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Signaller:
He's trying to be a politician, but he isn't very good at it.
Regardless of ideology, he's a prat.
Nevertheless, he is excellent at getting publicity and putting himself up there with parties which actually have MPs.
I am pretty sure that, come the general election, he will diminish the Tory vote, which can only be a Very Good Thing.
So, hateful 'tho all his policies are - I hope he gets lots of votes!
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Garden. Room. Walk
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
So I will respond.
Racist - he did say he didn't want a Hungarian living next door. That counts as racist to me, and he does seem identify people by their nationalities quite a lot.
Xenophobic - He so often talks about people like "Hungarians and Romanians", dismissing the "others". In fact, he seems to love stoking the fear of "them".
Vile policies - the party does want to roll back employment law by decades. In fact, back to a time when the wealthy did very nicely, at the expense of most others.
It is a very cheap tacky shot to say "You liberals don't like others disagreeing with you". I know other people disagree with me. Everyone disagrees with me. I don't have a problem with that. I have a problem with people who preach hatred, be it the Phelps or the Farage.
Problem is though that he's a hell of a lot more sophisticated than that (certainly more so than Phelps). I don't think it's right to say that he preaches hatred, because actually he doesn't - certainly not to the degree Phelps did (and sadly, I do think the question of degree matters - the whole schtick here is that to a worryingly large number of people Farage does come across as reasonable, Phelps by the end couldn't even manage that within his own family). I would agree that he certainly stokes fear, however...
In the spirit of know your enemy (and because it was £2 in The Works), I've read his autobiography. He's an entertaining writer, and, if you let yourself, he's also plausible. I came away really pretty worried, because what he was saying was of course execrable, but at the same time the man's very talented and I could see w
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
god knows where the other half of that has gone...
to summaraise the missing 500 words:
half his followers aren't in the mood to listen to the media or mainstream parties when they attack him, the other half don't care. A worrying number probably think he doesn't go far enough.
never understimate the appeal outside the larger British cities of a talented populist peddling
"backwards to a brighter yesterday"
but hopefully Westminster first past the post next year will be less kind to him than Party List is probably going to be tomorrow.
I'm sure Iwas going to say something else, but can;t remember what it was. In future, I might try writing it up offline first....
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
Terribly sorry I didn't realise that the terms of the discussion were yours to set. My mistake.
Set by the OP. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd
Can I ask for clarification here: are we including the Mail and Telegraph under liberal media?
Why not? The word 'liberal' covers a multitude of sins, as I am sure you know (assuming you know the range of meanings of the word).
The problems with words that cover a range of meanings is that they're terribly prone to the fallacy of ambiguity. For example, the word 'liberal' used of the Daily Mail could mistakenly give the impression that it is meant in some sense in which it would primarily apply to the Guardian.
Supporters of Nigel Farage would like to give the impression that the political establishment has been dominated by Guardianistas for decades, and that no mainstream politicians or newspapers have ever spouted UKIP-style rhetoric.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Migration in the EU works both ways. UK citizens are free to work elsewhere in Europe, and many do.
If there are so many great jobs for people to do elsewhere in Europe, why are so many people from elsewhere in Europe coming to Britain in search of work? Why aren't they just taking the jobs that exist where they already are?
More of them are going to Germany. And substantial numbers are going to Italy and France. There are proportionally more internal EU migrants in Spain, Sweden, Austria and Belgium than there are in the UK (figures for 2010, so they'll have changed).
In 2012, EU migration was 148,000 to the UK. UK citizens leaving the country was 131,000. I'll let you do the maths, and you can decide if that works out as "so many".
None of that has anything to do with what I was saying, which was to point out the craziness inherent in a comment that boils down to "if you're worried about foreigners using EU law to come here and steal your jobs, then why not use the same law to go to their countries and steal theirs?"
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd
The problems with words that cover a range of meanings is that they're terribly prone to the fallacy of ambiguity. For example, the word 'liberal' used of the Daily Mail could mistakenly give the impression that it is meant in some sense in which it would primarily apply to the Guardian.
Supporters of Nigel Farage would like to give the impression that the political establishment has been dominated by Guardianistas for decades, and that no mainstream politicians or newspapers have ever spouted UKIP-style rhetoric.
OK. I concede the point. I shouldn't have used the word 'liberal'. It was hasty and wrong.
"Mainstream media" is the correct term.
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
Just in case it might help understand demographics -
betjemaniac wrote: quote:
never understimate the appeal outside the larger British cities of a talented populist peddling
"backwards to a brighter yesterday"
The demographics of UKIP and similar parties in Western Europe have been fairly well put through the academic mill. What seems to come out is that their support is essentially suburban - what Will Self referred to as "flag-waving heartlands" Of course there will be supporters everywhere, but that's where they concentrate most.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd
Can I ask for clarification here: are we including the Mail and Telegraph under liberal media?
Why not? The word 'liberal' covers a multitude of sins, as I am sure you know (assuming you know the range of meanings of the word).
The problems with words that cover a range of meanings is that they're terribly prone to the fallacy of ambiguity. For example, the word 'liberal' used of the Daily Mail could mistakenly give the impression that it is meant in some sense in which it would primarily apply to the Guardian.
Supporters of Nigel Farage would like to give the impression that the political establishment has been dominated by Guardianistas for decades, and that no mainstream politicians or newspapers have ever spouted UKIP-style rhetoric.
I think it's safe to say that, at least in the anglosphere, when the word "liberal" is put in front of the word "media", it is meant to be understood as meaning something like "left-wing media" or maybe "centre-left media"(the latter if the speaker distinguishes between someone like Tony Benn and someone like Tony Blair, which many right-wingers do not). And it's almost always meant pejoratively.
If left-wingers want to criticize the media for being NEO-liberal, they will say "neo-liberal media", or more likely "corporate media" or just plain old "right-wing media". It is extremely rare in popular discussion to hear someone use "liberal" to mean something like "adhering to the economic theories of Adam Smith.
[ 21. May 2014, 17:46: Message edited by: Stetson ]
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
Maybe one could ask what Marta Andreasen what she thinks of Nigel Farage? She was one of the few UKIP-ites I respect.
(Marta Andreasen was an auditor for the European Commission, refused to sign off their accounts and was sacked for whistleblowing. IOW her antipathy towards the EU is based on personal experience and has actually cost her something, unlike Mr Farage who seems to be doing rather well out of his MEP-hood.)
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
Refusing to sign off the EU's accounts is not unusual. AFAIK it is very unusual for the EU accounts ever to be signed off.
Almost as rare as HMRC's accounts, what with the Mapeley STEPS affair under which many crown building maintenance contracts were let to a company based in Bermuda and Guernsey, two countries known for totally above the board and transparent bank regulation.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Migration in the EU works both ways. UK citizens are free to work elsewhere in Europe, and many do.
If there are so many great jobs for people to do elsewhere in Europe, why are so many people from elsewhere in Europe coming to Britain in search of work? Why aren't they just taking the jobs that exist where they already are?
A Polish HGV driver moving to Britain to drive HGVs must be doing so because either (a) there aren't any HGV-driving jobs in Poland or (b) HGV driving jobs in the UK pay considerably more. So what good will your "just go and work somewhere else" do for the British HGV driver who just lost his job to the Pole?
Maybe the Pole is a better driver than available British counterparts?
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Migration in the EU works both ways. UK citizens are free to work elsewhere in Europe, and many do.
If there are so many great jobs for people to do elsewhere in Europe, why are so many people from elsewhere in Europe coming to Britain in search of work? Why aren't they just taking the jobs that exist where they already are?
It is a simple fact that in many countries of eastern europe there isn't enough work, or doesn't pay particularly well. As pointed out, there are many more of those immigrants working in Germany and other EU nations, a small number come to the UK. And, many are on short term contracts and will return home after a short time here, with new skills and some money in their pocket - paying taxes in the UK but not putting much strain on services (no children in schools, no health care needs, no state pensions).
At present there are less UK citizens moving to other parts of Europe, and many of those will be professionals. It wasn't that long ago, however, when the UK was going through economic troubles and lots of relatively low skilled Brits went to other parts of Europe to work - construction workers in Germany were made famous by Auf Wiedersehen, Pet as an example.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
The whole concept of "stealing people's jobs" is a manifestation of the Lump Labour Fallacy.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
Problem is though that he's a hell of a lot more sophisticated than that (certainly more so than Phelps). I don't think it's right to say that he preaches hatred, because actually he doesn't - certainly not to the degree Phelps did (and sadly, I do think the question of degree matters - the whole schtick here is that to a worryingly large number of people Farage does come across as reasonable, Phelps by the end couldn't even manage that within his own family). I would agree that he certainly stokes fear, however...
In the spirit of know your enemy (and because it was £2 in The Works), I've read his autobiography. He's an entertaining writer, and, if you let yourself, he's also plausible. I came away really pretty worried, because what he was saying was of course execrable, but at the same time the man's very talented and I could see w
I think Phelps preached fear which promoted hatred. He eventually started to believe his own words, and became more and more ridiculous.
Farage preaches fear (and I would accept that clarification), which tends to lead to hatred amongst those who listen to him and accept his ideas. the end result is a dangerous hatred of "others".
Yes he a lot more complex than that. He is playing a political game, of pretending to be an ordinary working class man, with a simple idea that want to put over. But he is more than that, (and less than that too) and that is dangerous. He is telling political lies just as much as Cameron is. He knows what he is doing, but pretends he is just an ordinary chap.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
In the case of lorry drivers, of course a lot of overseas drivers on our roads are employed in their own country. They just happen to have a route that brings them here to deliver/collect goods. It's called free trade.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
None of that has anything to do with what I was saying, which was to point out the craziness inherent in a comment that boils down to "if you're worried about foreigners using EU law to come here and steal your jobs, then why not use the same law to go to their countries and steal theirs?"
Well, I think you're wrong. If the UK, due to its relatively advanced post-manufacturing economy trains more computer programmers than we have jobs for, they're going to go abroad to work. Conversely, we seem to be sadly lacking in people willing to pick fruit and veg, plumbers and dentists (and doctors, if my son's recent tonsillectomy was anything to go by).
So the numbers add up. We're not "stealing each other's jobs", we're enjoying the free movement of labour. Long may it continue.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
Lorry driver bollocks. It is well shown that immigration makes an overall positive contribution to the economy. Farage himself admits this, and instead argues that the problem with immigration is a social one, rather than one of employment or economy. The immigrants aren't English. They're different. Different is bad.
Whats so repulsive about the whole thing is just how popular the vile sentiment actually is. I truly despair of the ugly ignorance of mankind.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
None of that has anything to do with what I was saying, which was to point out the craziness inherent in a comment that boils down to "if you're worried about foreigners using EU law to come here and steal your jobs, then why not use the same law to go to their countries and steal theirs?"
Well, I think you're wrong. If the UK, due to its relatively advanced post-manufacturing economy trains more computer programmers than we have jobs for, they're going to go abroad to work. Conversely, we seem to be sadly lacking in people willing to pick fruit and veg, plumbers and dentists (and doctors, if my son's recent tonsillectomy was anything to go by).
So the numbers add up. We're not "stealing each other's jobs", we're enjoying the free movement of labour. Long may it continue.
Yes, the classical free movement is of goods, labour, services and capital. The EU is supposed to promote all of those, I suppose.
Withdrawing from the EU might presumably impede all of these, although to stop the movement of goods and capital would snarl up business and seems pretty impossible.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Lorry driver bollocks. It is well shown that immigration makes an overall positive contribution to the economy. Farage himself admits this, and instead argues that the problem with immigration is a social one, rather than one of employment or economy. The immigrants aren't English. They're different. Different is bad.
Whats so repulsive about the whole thing is just how popular the vile sentiment actually is. I truly despair of the ugly ignorance of mankind.
Yes, it depresses me. I grew up near Oldham, where there were bad riots between Asian and white areas, and there were all the usual fantasies, that 'they' are getting all the nice houses, jobs, higher wages, benefits, and so on. I suppose Farage is able to milk this kind of sentiment.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
Terribly sorry I didn't realise that the terms of the discussion were yours to set. My mistake.
Set by the OP.
The OP is specifically about whether Farage is a misunderstood man. That would seem to allow discussion of why people are voting for his policies. So enough rolling of your eyes please.
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003
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aunt jane
Shipmate
# 10139
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Posted
I don't think Farage is a "misunderstood man". Following the outburst about Romanians living next door, his views have now been seen for what they are.
UKIP themselves might or might not have a legitimate point of view about whether Britain should be in the EU. That does not excuse the posters they have been displaying near where I live, repeatedly trying to stoke fears about alleged mass immigration from eastern Europe.
Posts: 97 | From: South East of England | Registered: Aug 2005
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
If the UK, due to its relatively advanced post-manufacturing economy trains more computer programmers than we have jobs for, they're going to go abroad to work. Conversely, we seem to be sadly lacking in people willing to pick fruit and veg, plumbers and dentists (and doctors, if my son's recent tonsillectomy was anything to go by).
So the numbers add up. We're not "stealing each other's jobs", we're enjoying the free movement of labour. Long may it continue.
Well maybe, rather than training all those computer programmers we have no use for, we should train some of them as veg pickers, plumbers and dentists. That way we wouldn't have to bugger off to other places and have the people from other places buggering off from there to here.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Well maybe, rather than training all those computer programmers we have no use for, we should train some of them as veg pickers, plumbers and dentists. That way we wouldn't have to bugger off to other places and have the people from other places buggering off from there to here.
Why not?
I think it's great. My son is nursing in Heidelberg and loving it. Why on Earth shouldn't he?
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
Of course, if we were to precipitously and completely withdraw from the EU, we would be in shtuk.
There are EU workers who enable our agriculture to survive - because local people will not do the work for the money a lot of the time. Good or bad, without them, we would struggle.
So many of the multinationals who have a base here (Toyota, Nissan for example) are here because it provides them a gateway into Europe. If we withdrew, they would not come here, and where possible, would leave, and move to another EU country. That would be a very large number of jobs. And this might include some of the banks or financial institutions.
Smaller companies based in the UK who rely on exports would be disadvantaged - many would go out of business. Today, because we have lost so much of our manufacturing business, this applies to most small businesses.
So a Farage-like withdrawal would be a disaster. We should negotiate, discuss, argue our position, make it work right, but our future has to be as a part of Europe.
So even on his fundamental, core principle, he is wrong.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
So many of the multinationals who have a base here (Toyota, Nissan for example) are here because it provides them a gateway into Europe. If we withdrew, they would not come here, and where possible, would leave, and move to another EU country.
I've genuinely forgotten: can someone remind me which major car manufacturer recently relocated a plant from Britain to Turkey?
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Why not?
I think it's great. My son is nursing in Heidelberg and loving it. Why on Earth shouldn't he?
It's bad enough for local communities that people have to move all over the country looking for work. How much worse will it be when people have to move all over the continent? There won't even be a sense of national community any more.
Of course, that's what a lot of the pro-EU folk want in the first place...
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
Quite. I think Enoch Powell was on to something when he said that there cannot be a European democracy because there is no European demos.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Well maybe, rather than training all those computer programmers we have no use for
Oooeee. I think you'll find it's the people who want to train as computer programmers. 'We' don't train anyone - unless you're suddenly advocating a command economy with quotas for skilled jobs that have to be met by University #23 (formerly UMIST). Which would be a bit of a Damascene conversion, I have to say.
Folk are free to train in whatever the hell they like, be it hairdressing, phone sanitation or heaven forefend, computer programming. Thank God.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
And, the popularity of courses like computer programming is because they open up the opportunity of working abroad. An awful lot of people like to travel, to experience other cultures, and in a lot of cases to move there - either to work, or to retire. And, an awful lot of people like to live in a multicultural society where they can experience other cultures without having to find a job overseas.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
So many of the multinationals who have a base here (Toyota, Nissan for example) are here because it provides them a gateway into Europe. If we withdrew, they would not come here, and where possible, would leave, and move to another EU country.
I've genuinely forgotten: can someone remind me which major car manufacturer recently relocated a plant from Britain to Turkey?
Ford apparently, but I think there is a longer story here. Ford have been reducing their involvement in the UK for a long time.
Yes this will happen. But some will come to the UK because of our position in the EU. And because we sometimes make it beneficial to be here.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
I love experiencing other cultures. It's called "going on holiday". I just like having a culture of my own to go back home to afterwards as well.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
So many of the multinationals who have a base here (Toyota, Nissan for example) are here because it provides them a gateway into Europe. If we withdrew, they would not come here, and where possible, would leave, and move to another EU country.
I've genuinely forgotten: can someone remind me which major car manufacturer recently relocated a plant from Britain to Turkey?
Ford apparently, but I think there is a longer story here. Ford have been reducing their involvement in the UK for a long time.
Yes this will happen. But some will come to the UK because of our position in the EU. And because we sometimes make it beneficial to be here.
If multi-national companies are willing to relocate from EU countries to non-EU countries anyway, how can you say with confidence that if Britain withdrew 'they would not come here'?
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
Yes, it was Ford's Southampton Transit van plant.
But I'm not sure how that example helps. Turkey has had a customs/free trade union with the EU since 1995, so it is identical to being in the EU so far as non-agricultural goods are concerned. The UKIP strategy is that we renegotiate tariffs on a bilateral basis. We export around 80 to 90% of the cars we make if I remember the figures correctly, and they tend to be high-end models.
Plus the net trade in car imports vs. exports is only part of the story, as much of the value in cars is in the components and major unit assembly, which like Airbus manufacture is done in many countries as sub-assemblies. And these are not accounted for as cars.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I love experiencing other cultures. It's called "going on holiday". I just like having a culture of my own to go back home to afterwards as well.
There's a difference in experience between a couple of weeks holiday and working in another country, even on short trips. Someone coming to the Midlands would have a very different experience of the culture if they spend the vast majority of time with hotel and restaurant staff, in museums and other attractions etc than someone spending time with staff in your office. I've been told that the difference in experience is even greater when you spend extended periods working overseas ... in a few months I should be able confirm that.
In what way do you not have a culture to come home to? Does the presence of people with different cultures in your neighbourhood change you and the people you socialise with? Minority groups manage to maintain their cultural identity for generations, if they can do that why should a majority culture feel threatened by a few people with different ways of doing things?
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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