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Source: (consider it) Thread: A misunderstood man?
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Maybe not, but I'd hate to live there. And I wouldn't want the whole country to be like London. Would you?

And yes, I do live in the West Midlands conurbation (pop. density just over 4k). But I've always lived on the outskirts, within very easy reach of nice open countryside where I can go if I need some space to breathe.

There is a series of maps, which I'm singularly failing to find, of what the UK would look like if we all lived in one city. IIRC, we can all fit in a 1k stretch on the south coast, at Manhattan density. The rest of the country is completely uninhabited. So you'd live 1k from open fields, no matter where you lived.

Britain is not full. That's a meaningless phrase. Any figure you put on it is arbitrary and based solely on how 'full' you feel it is. And the point is that the 8.3 million people who live in London do so, mostly without killing each other.

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Forward the New Republic

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Oscar the Grouch

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One aspect of the issue of controlling immigration that has never made sense to me is that it is typically the free-market ideologues who are most in favour of restricting immigration.

But if you believe in the free market, surely you believe in the free labour market as well? If one of your core beliefs is that government should interfere as little as possible with the freedom of businesses to carry out their business, why should you then place restrictions on a key part of any business - its work force.

From a theoretical and purely economic point of view, right wing freetraders should be lining up to defend the freedom of people to move across boundaries in search of work. Or have I missed something?

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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
IIRC, we can all fit in a 1k stretch on the south coast, at Manhattan density.

Why on earth would we want to live at Manhattan density though?

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Hail Gallaxhar

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rolyn
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The problem with Europe is that it doesn't do 'theoretical' .
In theory Europe should not have invited the misery of two world wars. But it did . In theory Europe should now function like the United States of America. But it won't .

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Stetson
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Oscar wrote:

quote:
One aspect of the issue of controlling immigration that has never made sense to me is that it is typically the free-market ideologues who are most in favour of restricting immigration.


Actually, I think most free-market PURISTS are in favour of unrestricted immigration, which they think will keep wages low and, on a loftier moral ground, enhance the individual's right to free movement.

Here, for example, is a right-wing libertarian magazine from the US attacking Farange's anti-immigration stance...

The UKIP Was Wrong About Immigration

However, for complex reasons, in practical politics, free-marketers have formed a political alliance with social-conservatives and what you in the UK call "Little Englanders", which means market-oriented views on immigration get shunted to the side in order to play to the nativist crowd.

It's sort of like how free-marketers SHOULD be the biggest supporters of pornography publishers, because they are independent businesses that stay afloat by selling a product that the consumer wants to buy. But, of course, conservatives have to appeal to the Religious Right as well, so...

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
IIRC, we can all fit in a 1k stretch on the south coast, at Manhattan density.

Why on earth would we want to live at Manhattan density though?
Why wouldn't we? You already live in a high density city: you'd not notice.

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Forward the New Republic

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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Here, for example, is a right-wing libertarian magazine from the US attacking Farange's anti-immigration stance...

The UKIP Was Wrong About Immigration

In most metrics, right libertarians see right authoritarians (aka 'national socialists') as wrong.

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Forward the New Republic

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Stetson
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# 9597

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Doc tor wrote:

quote:
Why wouldn't we? You already live in a high density city: you'd not notice.


Yeah, I live in Korea, where the density is off-the-charts. The South alone has more people than Canada, while being geographically smaller than a mid-sized Canadian province.

But you don't really notice it on an everyday level. They build vertically, with most people living in high-rise apartment blocks, so residential isn't really taking up that much space. And it's not like there are people awarming all over the place. Some parts of the cities I've lived in can seem quite barren most of the time.

That said, compared to my hometown, and Canada generally, there isn't a lot of green space. You can't really go out to the country and look around without seeing some nearby sign of human habitation. But I'd imagine you get the same thing in most European countries.

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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!

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Stetson
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# 9597

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Here, for example, is a right-wing libertarian magazine from the US attacking Farange's anti-immigration stance...

The UKIP Was Wrong About Immigration

In most metrics, right libertarians see right authoritarians (aka 'national socialists') as wrong.
Which gets to something else I was wondering about...

Does the UKIP present itself as a free-market party? I know they're against regulation from "Brussels", but do they advocate things like protective traiffs and social-welfare spending undertaken by the UK government, for the supposed benefit of "Britons"?

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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!

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rolyn
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# 16840

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quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Does the UKIP present itself as a free-market party?

It does, as far as I can gather . So it strikes me as somewhat odd that UKIP finds favour among farmers and landowners . Price support for agricultural produce has come from the EU since WW2, presumably this would be withdrawn if Britain broke free from the EU. Whatsmore prices would fall if food could be freely sourced from anywhere in the world.

This is but one example of the irrationality of far right politics and, more importantly, the places from whence it's support arises.
Having said that I voted UKIP last night in the Euro election . So the question is ... Why have I , (a life-long liberal), and thousands like me , been moved to vote for far right politics ?

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Stetson
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Thanks, for the info, Rolyn.

quote:
Having said that I voted UKIP last night in the Euro election . So the question is ... Why have I , (a life-long liberal), and thousands like me , been moved to vote for far right politics ?


Umm, I dunno. Presumably there is only one person here who can answer the question about why you voted UKIP, and he/she has chosen to remain silent on the matter.

This Guardian column articulated some things that I've long thought about right-wing populist parties. I share the writer's dismissive attitude toward the word "community" as a left-wing shibboleth, since it's an empty concept that doesn't really mean much more than "a group of people sharing a common purpose or space". A bloke running around with the St George's Cross yelling "Pak*s out!" has as much a sense of community as someone attending a trade-union meeting in Manchester.

[ 23. May 2014, 18:38: Message edited by: Stetson ]

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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!

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rolyn
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Thanks for that link Stetson .

Indeed, if Farage's smile becomes even broader after next year's General Election then all sneering will cease .
Far Right politics is on the rise across Europe . I'm not popping champagne corks over that . On the contrary, I believe a very dangerous state of affairs could be on the horizon .

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
IIRC, we can all fit in a 1k stretch on the south coast, at Manhattan density.

Why on earth would we want to live at Manhattan density though?
Why wouldn't we? You already live in a high density city: you'd not notice.
Manhattan's population density is over six times that of Birmingham. I'd notice.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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stonespring
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A lot of voters for parties of the populist right want those parts if the welfare state that affect them (especially old age pensions) to remain untouched. Is the UKIP typical of this?
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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
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quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
They build vertically, with most people living in high-rise apartment blocks, so residential isn't really taking up that much space.

I prefer having a garden from which I can see the sun for most of the day. Can't get that in the middle of a forest of skyscrapers.

quote:
That said, compared to my hometown, and Canada generally, there isn't a lot of green space. You can't really go out to the country and look around without seeing some nearby sign of human habitation. But I'd imagine you get the same thing in most European countries.
No, pretty much all of them have nice big areas of countryside where you can be miles away from anything and anyone.

[ 23. May 2014, 19:34: Message edited by: Marvin the Martian ]

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Stetson
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quote:
No, pretty much all of them have nice big areas of countryside where you can be miles away from anything and anyone.

If that's the case, I stand corrected.
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967

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quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
I never said [Canada] was non-racist.

What I said was that the overall atmosphere was very different and in general, it is. Hugely different in my experience.

[...] As far as I can see, Canadian media in general is no where near as poisonous as the UK.

I have relatives in Canada, but have never visited myself.

Certainly, in 'young' country of migrants (apart from the much reduced indigenous population) it would hardly make sense for white Canadians to present themselves as the authentic repository of Canadian culture and industriousness. Moreover, Canada's a huge country with a relatively small population, so the unease some might otherwise feel at being outnumbered in certain cities and large towns is perhaps less of an issue.

I also get the impression that on the whole Canada attracts a better educated and better off international immigrant overall than the UK does, which obviously helps with acculturation and community cohesion. I don't know how well it compares with the UK as a destination for immigrants who are poorer and less qualified.

Regarding British newspapers, I think they seem worse online than they do in reality. This is because the internet often attracts commentators who are more wary of immigration than the newspapers themselves. This is just as true for 'The Guardian' as it is for 'The Daily Mail' or 'The Telegraph'. And none of these papers has come out as pro-Nigel Farage, as far as I'm aware!

To end on a multicultural note, let's remember that London is now described as one of the most (if not the most) ethnically diverse cities in the world. White Britons are now in the minority in four English and cities, and others (including mine) are set to follow. People have come here in unprecedented numbers over the past 15 years because it's an appealing place to be - and it makes sense for politicians, newspapers and businesses to appeal to an increasingly important constituency.

[ 23. May 2014, 22:39: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
But you're making comparisons against other countries which are vastly different to the UK.

I'll grant you that. But I didn't start it - that would be all those who were saying "other countries have a higher percentage of immigrants, so what are you complaining about?"

If the comparison is invalid one way, it's invalid both ways. Conversely, if it's valid one way then it's valid both ways. I'm happy to go with either option.

They're not all the same comparison, though. Saying 'the comparison' is trying to suggest that every kind of comparison is relevant to the issue.

The percentage of people that are immigrants is highly relevant to any kind of 'having too many immigrants disrupts things' argument.

Announcing that we have more room, as if we could cart all the immigrants off to a nice empty spot and dump them there instead of having them distributed across the general population, strike me as completely IRrelevant. People live where they live. They quite frequently gravitate to places where other people also live. The percentage of immigrants is a sensible comparison because it reflects what proportion of the people you see around you are likely to be foreigners.

If you're just bothered about HOW MANY people you see around you, and don't care whether they came from nearby or far away, then that's not racist, but it doesn't have all that much to do with immigration either because the majority of people you're running into are born in your country. It's your own bedrooms that are crowding you out, not the adult arrivals.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Dave W.
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# 8765

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quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
I agree that the choice of a second language is less obvious for children in the UK than for those in other European countries, but this doesn't really seem to imply the British are thus at a disadvantage with respect to finding foreign employment.

After all, those English-learning continentals aren't all emigrating to English-speaking countries. If the ability to speak English can help a German get that good job in Milan, the native English speaker should have even more of an advantage; and if knowing English isn't generally helpful, the German faces the same difficulty of choice that the Brit does.

No, but learn one and you can probably pick up another one. Those children learning English for the purpose of films and rock music might find it easier to then, later in life, learn Italian or whatever.

Grow up monoglot, with no obvious-to-a-teenager reason to learn anything else, and your always trying to add one to English, not x to native plus English.

At this point I think any UK disadvantage appears extremely attenuated. I doubt fluency in three languages is sufficiently common to count as a significant advantage for non-UK Europeans.
quote:
If I was interviewing only two candidates for a job in Milan for which English was useful but Italian was necessary and they were a monoglot Englishman and a German who spoke English, I would definitely (all other points being equal between them) go for the German, because I'd have more confidence that the Italian would come in time.
This is kind of an absurd hypothetical. If the ability to speak Italian is necessary, it sounds like neither of your two candidates is acceptable; and if you're hypothesizing some other aspect of the job that disqualifies every Italian, I think you've sufficiently narrowed the scope of the example to render it irrelevant.
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Stetson
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Robert Fulford, a conservative Canadian columnist, has a theory about the psychological underpinnings of anti-EU sentiment.

Paragraphs 9, 10, and 11

That's from the National Post, founded by the aforementioned Conrad Black. It's owned by someone else now, but Black still writes for them and mantains a "spiritual grip" on the paper.

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Oscar the Grouch

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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
To end on a multicultural note, let's remember that London is now described as one of the most (if not the most) ethnically diverse cities in the world. White Britons are now in the minority in four English and cities, and others (including mine) are set to follow. People have come here in unprecedented numbers over the past 15 years because it's an appealing place to be - and it makes sense for politicians, newspapers and businesses to appeal to an increasingly important constituency.

And it is worth noting that the council election results have shown that London is the place where UKIP has failed to make much of an impact.

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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu

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quetzalcoatl
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I think anti-EU sentiment has less appeal in London, as so many companies use London as a gateway to Europe, so probably, quite a lot of people see leaving EU as a disaster for jobs. Also, I suppose since London is already so mixed in terms of nationalities, people aren't so fussed about it.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Anglican't
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Also, London is a left-leaning city and UKIP is a right-wing party.
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rolyn
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quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
And it is worth noting that the council election results have shown that London is the place where UKIP has failed to make much of an impact.

No coincidence that the London bubble zone, unlike the rest of the UK, is beginning to enjoy that post-recession feeling.

If the tories pray hard enough for a general Countrywide recovery then maybe, just maybe they'll be able to halt the advance of a previously obscure political party.

An electorate with a full purse is so much more easily pacified.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Arethosemyfeet
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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
No coincidence that the London bubble zone, unlike the rest of the UK, is beginning to enjoy that post-recession feeling.

If the tories pray hard enough for a general Countrywide recovery then maybe, just maybe they'll be able to halt the advance of a previously obscure political party.

An electorate with a full purse is so much more easily pacified.

I think this the key. The tory right wing are part of the story, but the bigger issue are the same white working class folk who were seduced by the BNP a few years ago. They've seen no improvement in living standards pretty much since the 70s. Cheap electronics, sure, but it's got no easier to afford food, heat, power and rent. Fascists are able to exploit this by blaming it on immigration, rather than the (actually culpable) Thatcherite consensus that has meant only the rich have got the benefits of economic growth. The good news is that British fascists are lousy at running things, so once people have had 5 years of useless UKIP councillors they'll drop them, just as they did the BNP.
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betjemaniac
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quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
No coincidence that the London bubble zone, unlike the rest of the UK, is beginning to enjoy that post-recession feeling.

If the tories pray hard enough for a general Countrywide recovery then maybe, just maybe they'll be able to halt the advance of a previously obscure political party.

An electorate with a full purse is so much more easily pacified.

I think this the key. The tory right wing are part of the story, but the bigger issue are the same white working class folk who were seduced by the BNP a few years ago. They've seen no improvement in living standards pretty much since the 70s. Cheap electronics, sure, but it's got no easier to afford food, heat, power and rent. Fascists are able to exploit this by blaming it on immigration, rather than the (actually culpable) Thatcherite consensus that has meant only the rich have got the benefits of economic growth. The good news is that British fascists are lousy at running things, so once people have had 5 years of useless UKIP councillors they'll drop them, just as they did the BNP.
Totally agree with your reading of the runes, but categorising UKIP as fascist is both wrong and part of the problem. I don't doubt they've got some unsavoury supporters but it's an odd definition of fascist that pulls together social conservatives and extreme libertarians. Now, if UKIP tacks towards its northern working class supporters and away from Essex Man in the future it could represent a more corporatist entity - akin to authoritarian regimes in Spain or Portugal - than it in any way currently does, and then one could call them fascist.

At the moment, slinging accusations of fascism around at what is basically a viewpoint that would have been legitimate strands of both Tory and Labour thinking well into the 1950s just gets these people's backs up and pushes them more into the UKIP camp. They're not fascist, they don't believe they're voting for a fascist party (which is not something that could have been said about those voting BNP in the 1990s), and they certainly do not become more enamoured of the political mainstream when that mainstream goes out of its way to call them deluded, fascist, or below the salt.

UKIP can dig its own grave with its hilarious view that failure in London was down to its lack of appeal to the educated and cultured young!

I've knocked on enough doors canvassing in the past couple of weeks to know that UKIP are a serious problem, but assuming that they're fascist and are thus doomed to failure is very dangerous. My worry is that they're on a LibDem like trajectory through local government, but in this case without the bien-pensant liberal views (obviously). This is ground up rage which has actually found a focus and is getting traction the BNP could only have dreamed of. The BNP never had a couple of hundred councillors or looked on course to win the Euro elections for a start.

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And is it true? For if it is....

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Sioni Sais
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I've got to chip in to agree with betjemaniac. UKIP has had some racist candidates and I have no doubt that some more have been elected. They attract quite a lot of the "racist vote" although the hardline racist vote is split between Britain First, the BNP and the English Democrats. UKIP councillors won't be as useless as those elected under the BNP banner because some will have served previously, mostly as Conservatives.

None of those parties are organised or disciplined enough to be described as fascist though, hence the splits in British far-right parties and keeping UKIP united will be a real test in the next few years.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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rolyn
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# 16840

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quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
I've knocked on enough doors canvassing in the past couple of weeks to know that UKIP are a serious problem, but assuming that they're fascist and are thus doomed to failure is very dangerous. My worry is that they're on a LibDem like trajectory through local government, but in this case without the bien-pensant liberal views (obviously). This is ground up rage which has actually found a focus and is getting traction the BNP could only have dreamed of.

Ukip , IMO, has succeed in becoming the 'thinking person's' BNp.

That "ground up rage" which you describe is highly apt.
Where has it come from ?
'Kettling' students to prevent a legitimate protest maybe ? Or being unable to stop post-crash bankers from continuing to award themselves ridiculous bonuses and leaving the masses to carry the can ?
Or could even general fear over climate chaos be a driver ?

Who knows . We'll have to await the General Election to see if renewed interest in far right politics is a merely a blip or an unstoppable trend.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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quetzalcoatl
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Well, presumably a general election will compel UKIP to produce some more policies, about which they seem rather coy at the moment. I suppose basing an election on anti-EU and immigration will work at the moment.

I keep hearing noises about other UKIP policies - e.g. getting rid of maternity benefit, employment laws, more privatization in the NHS, and so on. I don't know how real these are, as it seems quite difficult to find out!

But this might make a difference in a general election. Presumably, Labour would be able to counter-attack on some of these issues - do people really want maternity benefit and paid holidays got rid of?

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Anglican't
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A while ago, there was admission that UKIP didn't have any credible policies and they planned to approach think tanks to, effectively, buy them in. I don't know whether that ever came to anything.

I some respects, having policies on anything other than the EU seems a little strange. Given that UKIP pulls its support from both left and right (though admittedly not in equal measure) I wonder whether it can realistically produce a set of domestic policies that will hold it together?

There might be some merit in just saying 'we'll campaign for withdrawal from the EU and, once this has been achieved, we'll dissolve ourselves'.

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Doublethink.
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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
I've knocked on enough doors canvassing in the past couple of weeks to know that UKIP are a serious problem, but assuming that they're fascist and are thus doomed to failure is very dangerous. My worry is that they're on a LibDem like trajectory through local government, but in this case without the bien-pensant liberal views (obviously). This is ground up rage which has actually found a focus and is getting traction the BNP could only have dreamed of.

Ukip , IMO, has succeed in becoming the 'thinking person's' BNp.

If you know them to be the thinking person's BNP - why on earth did you vote for them ?

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:

There might be some merit in just saying 'we'll campaign for withdrawal from the EU and, once this has been achieved, we'll dissolve ourselves'.

Well, sure, and that makes sense from some points of view, but what is your hypothetical UKIP MP going to do about all those bits of parliamentary business that aren't about arranging a referendum?

It's not unreasonable for people to want to know.

(It might actually be reasonable to have no party discipline on this at all, and leave it to individual members - so that you could in principle have a "Tory" UKIP MP who voted for withdrawal from the EU and also for IDS-style welfare reforms etc., and you could have a "Labour" UKIP MP who voted for withdrawal from the EU and for increased power for the unions.)

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Stetson
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quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
I've knocked on enough doors canvassing in the past couple of weeks to know that UKIP are a serious problem, but assuming that they're fascist and are thus doomed to failure is very dangerous. My worry is that they're on a LibDem like trajectory through local government, but in this case without the bien-pensant liberal views (obviously). This is ground up rage which has actually found a focus and is getting traction the BNP could only have dreamed of.

Ukip , IMO, has succeed in becoming the 'thinking person's' BNp.

If you know them to be the thinking person's BNP - why on earth did you vote for them ?
I've been wondering that myself since at least 23 May, 2014 14:37. Rolyn has taken the curious posture of being both a supporter of the UKIP, and a diagnostician of its "irrationality".

quote:
This is but one example of the irrationality of far right politics and, more importantly, the places from whence it's support arises.
Having said that I voted UKIP last night in the Euro election . So the question is ... Why have I , (a life-long liberal), and thousands like me , been moved to vote for far right politics ?




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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!

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Anglican't
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# 15292

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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
(It might actually be reasonable to have no party discipline on this at all, and leave it to individual members - so that you could in principle have a "Tory" UKIP MP who voted for withdrawal from the EU and also for IDS-style welfare reforms etc., and you could have a "Labour" UKIP MP who voted for withdrawal from the EU and for increased power for the unions.)

That might not be a bad idea. Whenever I've heard a Ukipper who isn't Nigel Farage interviewed, I've always got the impression that he's saying the first thing that pops into his head, rather than party policy. Why not formalise that arrangement?
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Hiro's Leap

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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
the hardline racist vote is split between Britain First, the BNP and the English Democrats.

Not sure about that. I was walking past a BNP rally the other day and one of the main speakers was saying "UKIP aren't perfect, but I'll definitely be voting for them".

Wish I had it on video for YouTube.
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Or could even general fear over climate chaos be a driver ?

That would be an odd reason, considering how anti-climate science they are. UKIP even had arch crazypants climate skeptic Lord Monkton as science adviser until recently.
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quetzalcoatl
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On the question of policies, it strikes me that they are a classic small businessman's party, hence, cut corporation tax, have a flat tax, get rid of sick pay and maternity pay - these all fit the 'small business' ethos, don't they?

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Doublethink.
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A thick small businessman's party, if they haven't noticed europe is important for trade.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Anglican't
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Isn't the point that UKIP makes repeatedly is that trading with Europe and being a member of the EU aren't the same thing? There can be discussion, sure, about the details of that (how would it work? Would there be advantages? Would there be disadvantages?) but holding that basic belief doesn't make one 'thick', does it?
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quetzalcoatl
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At the moment, I think a referendum on Europe would be pro, partly because enough people would be scared of the unknown implications. OK, you can argue that UK would still trade with the world, and so on, but people have actually got used to Europe, even if they moan about it.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Doublethink.
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Isn't the point that UKIP makes repeatedly is that trading with Europe and being a member of the EU aren't the same thing? There can be discussion, sure, about the details of that (how would it work? Would there be advantages? Would there be disadvantages?) but holding that basic belief doesn't make one 'thick', does it?

I think the assumption that will Britain will be able to throw its weight around successfully in such negotiations, is just as naive as the Scottish nationalist's assumption that they can walk straight into the same agreements the UK currently has.

Weird, in a way that those actually seeking full blown independence from the UK wish to join the EU - whilst a party waving around the independence tag for rhetorical reasons does not wish to remain.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Sioni Sais
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If we want to trade with the current members of the EEA (the EU plus the old EFTA) then it will all have to be negotiated, which will provide an opportunity for the EU nations to drive a very hard bargain indeed. We might no longer then have our people at the European Commission, Council of Ministers and European Parliament, but we would still be subject to any directives and legislation that is trade related. All of that with no representation or participation whatsoever. Great. Well done UKIP and the other Euro-sceptics, you will have saved Britain's sovereignty.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

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betjemaniac
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Well, presumably a general election will compel UKIP to produce some more policies, about which they seem rather coy at the moment. I suppose basing an election on anti-EU and immigration will work at the moment.

I keep hearing noises about other UKIP policies - e.g. getting rid of maternity benefit, employment laws, more privatization in the NHS, and so on. I don't know how real these are, as it seems quite difficult to find out!


In fairness, a quick perusal of the other party websites shows a similar current disinclination to talk about policy in more than the broadest sense at the national level.

I don't think there's anything too sinister in it - it's where we are in the electoral cycle; no party has yet gone to market so to speak with what they're going to campaign on in 2015, but at the same time they've all got a vested interest in not highlighting what they stood for in 2010 in case they get called on it, and especially on any differences in the fine print between what they were saying then and the sort of noises they are making now.

Until about last year you could get the Labour, Tory, LibDem and UKIP manifestos for 2010 quite easily from their respective websites.

UKIP had a full manifesto in 2010 with as complete a set of policies across all departments as any of the other parties. It was drivel, but it existed.

The fact that Farage admittted a month or two ago that it was drivel,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-25879302

and that he'd put his name to it in 2010 *without having read it* may go some way to explaining why it now isn't on their website.

BTW, broadly all the policies you hint at were indeed correct the last time they went into a General Election. A lot of it was based around Direct Democracy blended with US style localism (elected county health, policing and education boards; health and education vouchers; privatisation of pretty much anything left in state ownership).

PS the main reason I know this is that those of us who do the legwork have to pretty well read everyone's manifesto so you can be prepared for where people you speak to on the doorstep are coming from. The 2010 UKIP manifesto was particularly memorably amusing - but then, in 2010 we weren't being forced to take them quite as seriously.....

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And is it true? For if it is....

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betjemaniac
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BTW, and this is as close as you can easily get on the internet to the 2010 UKIP manifesto comedy gold:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jan/23/the-ukip-politices-disowned-by-nigel-farage

highlights include:
- a return to proper dress in hotels, restaurants and theatres
-reintroduction of Pullman trains
- the resurrection of the Great Western Railway (last seen before nationalisation in 1948) - apparently just because really...
- government mandated return to traditional railway liveries
-banning university level European Studies courses

Also, there's some really quite sinister stuff in there as well, but you've got to take the laughs where you can get them otherwise this would be all really quite worrying

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And is it true? For if it is....

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Stetson
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quote:
a return to proper dress in hotels, restaurants and theatres

Well, in fairness, the article says that the UKIP promised to "encourage" proper dress in those places.

It's not unheard of for governments to engage in persuasion campaigns of that sort. My home province used to run ads advising people to smile more, in order to make tourists feel more comfortable.

And, while it wasn't an official campaign, I clearly recall candidate Barack Obama, circa 2008, blasting young males who walk around with low-hanging pants that reveal their underwear. Probably he wanted to be seen as tough-on-urban-punks, for the benefit of white voters.

The UKIP's proposal explicity situates itself in concerns about "Britishness", which would probably come off as more kitschy than anything else. I'd imagine that anyone under the age of 45 would consider it ridiculous to attend an entertainment venue dressed like the pictures in a Ladybird book.

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rolyn
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quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
If you know them to be the thinking person's BNP - why on earth did you vote for them ?

There have been a couple times in the past when I've been tempted to vote BNP but pulled back at the last minute . Without going into great detail it was all rage orientated .

In answer to Stetson's point. When it comes down to it I'd describe myself as apolitical . Voting Liberal since coming of age was pretty much influenced by my late parents who, in hindsight, tended to be anti-establishment/closeted tories.
I confess to being peanut gallery dweller really, and doubt very much that where I place a cross on a ballot paper will change the course of history.

Coming back to the fortunes of Ukip. If it keeps gaining ground then what must be addressed is the medium in which it has come to thrive . I'm guessing the media is also currently playing devil's advocate on this one . Politics has become so incredibly dull of late that even the news readers and analysts look half asleep.

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
I think the assumption that will Britain will be able to throw its weight around successfully in such negotiations, is just as naive as the Scottish nationalist's assumption that they can walk straight into the same agreements the UK currently has.


The UK is the world's sixth-largest economy. I think with the right team an amicable divorce is quite possible. We might debate how realistic that is, but I wouldn't have thought anyone arguing for or against that position was 'thick'.

(Also, it seems to me a perfectly acceptable negotiating tactic even if one prefers to remain in - saying 'I'd like a better deal, please, but if I don't get it I'll still remain a member of the club, don't worry' always struck me as an odd position to take.)

quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
highlights include:
- a return to proper dress in hotels, restaurants and theatres
-reintroduction of Pullman trains
- the resurrection of the Great Western Railway (last seen before nationalisation in 1948) - apparently just because really...
- government mandated return to traditional railway liveries
-banning university level European Studies courses

These do seem quite attractive, I have to say (except for the last one, though I'm suspicious of any course with 'studies' in the title). Wasn't it Evelyn Waugh who complained that the problem with the Conservative Party is that they don't conserve anything? That once elected to power they never try to turn the clock back to how things were?
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Doublethink.
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Tempted to vote BNP !?!

Possibly there is not a lot of point in our having a conversation. Because there is no way on God's green earth that was ever your only option for a protest vote.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Doublethink.
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
I think the assumption that will Britain will be able to throw its weight around successfully in such negotiations, is just as naive as the Scottish nationalist's assumption that they can walk straight into the same agreements the UK currently has.


The UK is the world's sixth-largest economy. I think with the right team an amicable divorce is quite possible. We might debate how realistic that is, but I wouldn't have thought anyone arguing for or against that position was 'thick'.

Possibly I was being too harsh.

But I do not understand how anyone sincerely believes that UKIP is somehow not essentially a racist party - piloted by a group of self-interested cynical bigots.

Looking at the history of the party tells you that, listening to the statements made by the candidates make tells you that, relying on claims debunked 5 years ago tells you that, taking money from the EU by tithing their MEPs to fund their own party tells you that, I could go on, at great length.

It is rather like my bafflement that anyone believed in the integrity of Jeffrey Archer or Neil Hamilton.

I strongly disliked and disagreed with Norman Tebbit, and likewise Thatcher - but I believed in their personal authenticity.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Oscar the Grouch

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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
The UK is the world's sixth-largest economy. I think with the right team an amicable divorce is quite possible. We might debate how realistic that is, but I wouldn't have thought anyone arguing for or against that position was 'thick'.

An amicable divorce is certainly possible. But it is highly unlikely that the terms of this will end up being more favourable to the UK than what we currently have. I can't imagine the Germans or the French saying "of course you can leave the EU. And your trade arrangements will be just the same as before."

Trade with the EU would almost certainly become more difficult and more expensive. Red tape (as abhorred by UKIP et al) would INCREASE. And there is no return to the world where the UK trades more with Commonwealth countries in compensation.

On any economic and business model, leaving the EU will cost the UK dearly. Which is why the Tories, for all their bluster, have never really been in favour of leaving. The eurosceptics may rant, but deep in its heart, the Tory party knows what is ultimately good for business. And that - ultimately - is what matters most for them.

UKIP are dangerous in that their drive to leave the EU is purely ideological and has no basis in reality. "What happens after the UK leaves the EU?" is not a questions that they have answered in any serious sense.

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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu

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Doublethink.
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And watch this, he captures something I can't quite articulate.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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