|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Why evolution is killing atheism
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
I'm reminded of Proverbs 30:7-9: 'Two things I ask of you, Lord; do not refuse me before I die: Keep falsehood and lies far from me; give me neither poverty nor riches, but give me only my daily bread. Otherwise, I may have to much and disown you and say, "Who is the Lord?" Or I may become poor and steal, and so dishonour the name of my God.' (NIV) I've often thought of this as an interesting example of one of the writers of the Bible doing sociology!
Will the whole earth ever be so rich and 'advanced' as to dispense with God entirely? I think there's something strangely old-fashioned about this sort of (atheistic) prediction. It obviously contradicts the fears about climate change, over/underpopulation, the growing economic dominance of China and India, etc. And although the Westernisation of the world will be welcomed by liberal Westerners if it leads to more tolerance and personal freedom, it could also become a problem if everyone demands the living standards of the 'average American', which would famously require almost five planets to achieve!
Everything might turn out for the best in the best of all possible worlds, but I'm not betting on utter transformation.
[ 30. May 2014, 19:42: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
]Well done. You have carefully pointed out the 'confounds', which militate against a direct link between religion and fertility. It's like chocolate and longevity.
I'm sure it was unintentional, but that came across as a bit patronising!
Kaufmann (the chap I referred to earlier) doesn't deny entirely that there may sometimes be direct links between religion and fertility; the American Quiverful movement is, after all, a deliberate religious attempt to change society by having large families. This movement obviously isn't typical, but Kaufmann's wider argument is less about 'typical' religiosity, and more about the gains to be made by certain ultra-strict religious groups. You could say that some of these groups have 'evolved' to survive and even thrive in particular conditions, whereas atheism hasn't.
It does look as though moderate forms of religion are likely to have the worst of both worlds, losing ground to stricter forms of religion in environments where religion has the most mileage, and losing out to non-religion in more secular environments. But there are lots of variables.
Sorry about that. I didn't intend to, but it does sound a bit like a comment on a student's essay. I'd give it a B++!
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Will the whole earth ever be so rich and 'advanced' as to dispense with God entirely? I think there's something strangely old-fashioned about this sort of (atheistic) prediction. It obviously contradicts the fears about climate change, over/underpopulation, the growing economic dominance of China and India, etc. And although the Westernisation of the world will be welcomed by liberal Westerners if it leads to more tolerance and personal freedom, it could also become a problem if everyone demands the living standards of the 'average American', which would famously require almost five planets to achieve!
As I said in my previous post, I don't expect religion to disappear, but I expect it to change. Ecological crises are likely, as they have in the past, to lead to upsurges in frenzied, millennial sects troubling deaf Heaven with their bootless cries.
Since religion is a human construct, we might even see the rise of a new one. It's a thing I find fascinating, the way an imaginative concept can leap time to be reborn in an individual consciousness. Every religion seems to me to originate in a Brilliant Idea - one that is simple, yet capable of infinite elaboration, that seems in one blazing metaphor to explain everything (it doesn't of course, once you get up close - but that's what the theologians are for).
Maybe our poetry (since that is what it is) will save us, or maybe it will be the death of us.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ramarius
Shipmate
# 16551
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
Interesting. Where's the evidence that children of theists in African, Asian and South American countries are less likely to be theists than their parents?
Europe.
Just to be clear, that isn't even the claim. The fact that you think that's the claim just demonstrates that you haven't understood what I or several others have said. Go back and read again. The claim is NOT that there's zero correlation between ones beliefs and ones parents beliefs. The point is that it's not genetically inherited.
And in that you are absolutely right. You need to have a look at the original article. The correlation between the decline of atheism and regional birth rates is sociological. The fact that the person raising the issue is a geneticist isn't the key point.
The fact that he's raising birth rates is the key point, because it is a false assumption that the children of theists will consistently remain theists. The children of European theists did not consistently remain theists, did they?
It's fundamentally flawed to look at the situation right here, right now, label Europe as 'atheist' and ignore that it hasn't always been 'atheist'. The failure of theism to be successfully passed down the generations in Europe is the most perfect demonstration I can think of that theism is not simply inherited, which disproves the thesis at one stroke.
Not sure anyone's arguing that theism is "simply inherited." It's more a case that theism and atheism are worldviews that are embedded in different societies. The former are expanding whereas the latter are declining. You would need a reason to argue persuasively that the decline in theism in Europe ine that's two hundred or so years will be repeated elsewhere. Looks more like this trend is localised in both time and geography.
Posts: 950 | From: Virtually anywhere | Registered: Jul 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ramarius
Shipmate
# 16551
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Candide:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
It's not that religion always makes people have more children; rather, the circumstances that make people religious may also make them have more children. Rural people who have a need for many children to work the land and to provide them with security may be religious because their lives are precarious; and the connection between their way of life and a God who provides is fairly direct.
European atheism was a product of urban life, and of an expanding middle class. Now, those values have spread throughout society as society has changed.
I agree. Atheism, or at least lack of interest in religion, is at least partially the result of wealth, in particular reasonably well-divided wealth.
Some other people in the thread has shown that birth rates are dropping many places, not just the West. By being materially secure, then the need for security in the shape of organized religion, no longer has the same appeal.
(There might be other forms of spirituality explored, indeed the West has seen a lot of New Age-y stuff, but that becomes a somewhat different ballgame).
If that's the chief cause for growth or decline of religion, then whether or not atheism will fall, depends on the level of prosperity in society as a whole. .
The correlation between prosperity and atheism is a complex one. The United States is the world's largest and most prosperous economy. If the logic is true that greater prosperity = greater atheism, then you would expect the US to be leading the decline in theism. Yet Christianity remains the dominant worldview (Niall Ferguson has written some interesting stuff on this). The situation in emerging economies is also instructive in this regard. Christianity is growing at a phenomenal rate in China at the same time that the Chines economy is expanding. Brazil has a bigger and faster growing economy than all but three EU members and continues to have a society that is overwhelmingly theistic.
Using Europe as the lens through which to interpret the direction of other societies is too narrow. The point that the article is making is that we need to consider the future of Europe in the light of wider influences.
--------------------
'
Posts: 950 | From: Virtually anywhere | Registered: Jul 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ramarius
Shipmate
# 16551
|
Posted
@Firenze
You wrote Maybe our poetry (since that is what it is) will save us, or maybe it will be the death of us.
What do you reckon we need "saving" from?
[code]
[ 31. May 2014, 10:17: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
--------------------
'
Posts: 950 | From: Virtually anywhere | Registered: Jul 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Candide
Apprentice
# 15755
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
quote:
Originally posted by Candide:
I agree. Atheism, or at least lack of interest in religion, is at least partially the result of wealth, in particular reasonably well-divided wealth.
Some other people in the thread has shown that birth rates are dropping many places, not just the West. By being materially secure, then the need for security in the shape of organized religion, no longer has the same appeal.
(There might be other forms of spirituality explored, indeed the West has seen a lot of New Age-y stuff, but that becomes a somewhat different ballgame).
If that's the chief cause for growth or decline of religion, then whether or not atheism will fall, depends on the level of prosperity in society as a whole. .
The correlation between prosperity and atheism is a complex one. The United States is the world's largest and most prosperous economy. If the logic is true that greater prosperity = greater atheism, then you would expect the US to be leading the decline in theism. Yet Christianity remains the dominant worldview (Niall Ferguson has written some interesting stuff on this). The situation in emerging economies is also instructive in this regard. Christianity is growing at a phenomenal rate in China at the same time that the Chines economy is expanding. Brazil has a bigger and faster growing economy than all but three EU members and continues to have a society that is overwhelmingly theistic.
Using Europe as the lens through which to interpret the direction of other societies is too narrow. The point that the article is making is that we need to consider the future of Europe in the light of wider influences.
I agree that it is just one of many possible causes. However, the evidence seems to point to a decent correlation between wealth and atheism, when the wealth is substantial, roughly evenly divided between the population, and has been in existance for long enough to be accepted as the normal situation.
Take a peek at this Wikipedia map on economic inequality inside a country. The areas with high equality, correlate considerably with those who have a lower level of interest in organized religion, Europe, Australia and Canada. (The areas in central Asia, with a high level of economic equality, are also relatively low-income areas).
While hardly a perfect match, then it does seem to indicate that those countries who has great prosperity, but also are countries with either high or growing interest in organized religion, are countries with an uneven distribution of wealth, Brazil, China and the US among them.
Posts: 36 | From: Norway | Registered: Jul 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
What I've heard about religiosity in the USA is that the stats are driven up by the South, which is poorer but also far more religious than the North. Is that feasible?
In the UK, though, the most religious people are often better-off and better educated than average, if by 'religious' we mean people who go to church or engage in other specifically religious rituals. Nominal Christians tend to be poorer and have fewer qualifications than atheists, though.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ramarius
Shipmate
# 16551
|
Posted
@Candide. Thanks for the link re income equalit and the Gini index. It adds an interesting slant on the wealth/belief question. I did notice this rider from Investopedia:
"Don't mistake the measurement of income distribution with the measurement of wealth. A wealthy country and a poor country can have the same Gini coefficient, even if the wealthy country has a relatively equal distribution of affluent residents and the poor country has a relatively equal distribution of cash-strapped residents. "
Is that enlightening or benighting?
Posts: 950 | From: Virtually anywhere | Registered: Jul 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
@Firenze
You wrote Maybe our poetry (since that is what it is) will save us, or maybe it will be the death of us.
What do you reckon we need "saving" from?
[code]
Ourselves, of course. The context of my remark is the malleability of religion to serve our ends, be it to authorise hierarchy or justify the revolution; legitimise wealth or enjoin poverty; support killing or inspire works of mercy. At the moment, AFAICS, it is batting for the subduing of nature and the exploitation of natural resources, the increasing of humankind, and the rise in material prosperity. Unfortunately, this is not going to end well.
It's possible that a religion could arise that venerated the Earth, and elevated simplicity and abstinence. (Actually, I think it has from time to time, but it's never taken).
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
Not sure anyone's arguing that theism is "simply inherited." It's more a case that theism and atheism are worldviews that are embedded in different societies. The former are expanding whereas the latter are declining. You would need a reason to argue persuasively that the decline in theism in Europe ine that's two hundred or so years will be repeated elsewhere. Looks more like this trend is localised in both time and geography.
And I'd say that you would need a reason to argue persuasively that history isn't going to repeat itself. At the very least, you should be a lot more wary about arguing that it ISN'T. "Embedded"? What basis can you give for 'embedded' theism that successfully distinguishes Europe and explains that really, theism/Christianity was just a passing phase there?
Alternatively, what convincing basis do you have for arguing that atheism is a passing phase in European culture?
[ 31. May 2014, 23:32: Message edited by: orfeo ]
--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Candide
Apprentice
# 15755
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
@Candide. Thanks for the link re income equalit and the Gini index. It adds an interesting slant on the wealth/belief question. I did notice this rider from Investopedia:
"Don't mistake the measurement of income distribution with the measurement of wealth. A wealthy country and a poor country can have the same Gini coefficient, even if the wealthy country has a relatively equal distribution of affluent residents and the poor country has a relatively equal distribution of cash-strapped residents. "
Is that enlightening or benighting?
Neither, really. It simply underlines the fact that both reasonably high levels of prosperity for society as a whole, and high levels of equal distribution, are important.
Compare it with a map of GNP per capita. By and large, places that rank high in both GNP per capita, AND equal distribution of wealth, tend to be the countries that have a considerable amount of non-religious / atheists.
Posts: 36 | From: Norway | Registered: Jul 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Iran's fertility rate declined by more than 70 percent between 1975 and 2005. Its level is comparable with the New England states, the region in America with the lowest fertility.
A woman in Oman today has 5.6 fewer babies than a woman in Oman 30 years ago.
Algeria, Bangladesh, and Morocco all have fertility levels corresponding to the state of Texas, while Indonesia's is almost identical to Arkansas'.
Lebanon's fertility level is lower than New York State's.
Those are interesting figures. The UN projects declining birthrates across the developing world, although their birthrates will remain higher than in the developed world. Interestingly, the UN calculates that birthrates in the developed world will rise. This could be as a result of the increasing immigration (as in Texas and New York State, for example?) of younger, fertile people from the developing world, and also because many Western women are having children later in life.
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
Since religion is a human construct, we might even see the rise of a new one.
There are new religions starting all the time. The question is, will there be one to challenge the dominance of Christianity or Islam? Not for about 100 years, according to the stats I've seen.
quote:
Originally posted by Candide:
By and large, places that rank high in both GNP per capita, AND equal distribution of wealth, tend to be the countries that have a considerable amount of non-religious / atheists.
I suppose one might ask whether the world's leaders would be able or willing to sustain a social and financial situation like this at the global level, or whether places like Sweden and Denmark benefit from the confluence of particular conditions that have made it convenient for them. It might even be the case that their wealth and social equality rely to some extent on lower wages and greater inequality in other parts of the world. I don't know, but consumerism elsewhere in the West has been partly blamed on this.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Socratic-enigma
Shipmate
# 12074
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
Not sure anyone's arguing that theism is "simply inherited." It's more a case that theism and atheism are worldviews that are embedded in different societies. The former are expanding whereas the latter are declining.
Huh? On what do you base such a comment? From all the information I have been able to garner, ‘No Religion’ (including atheism) continues to be the fastest growing affiliation, whether in the United States, Australia or the United Kingdom.
I wonder if your observation amounts to anything more than wishful thinking?
S-E
--------------------
"Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office than to serve and obey them."
David Hume
Posts: 817 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Nov 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
