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Thread: Perp walks, HR's new best practice.
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Are you familiar with the human resource practice. An employee is being downsized, laid off or otherwise fired. The boss informs via email, memo or otherwise that there's a meeting tomorrow at 9 a.m. The worker attends the meeting, the boss brings in a couple of HR professionals, the worker is handed a letter, and then the security personnel walk in, the fired employee turns in keys and access cards, is marched through the office in front of all the other employees and into the parking lot. Best practices? Wow.
This came up after the university president at a western Canadian university fired the dean of a school within the university who disagreed with the top-down plans for his school. It ended with the president and vice president fired/resigned instead. It made national news in Canada, and family who live in Asia also saw the story on international news.
Link: Perp walk reflects badly on HR professionals
quote:
above link
We have seen it most recently at the university, but the so-called perp walk, when fired employees are paraded off the premises, under escort, right past their dismayed former colleagues, sadly, is becoming the new labour standard.
Human resources professionals who prescribe the perp walk defend it as "best practice."
"Best practice for who?" asks Dionne Pohler, a professor at the Edwards School of Business who specializes in human resources.
Do they do this in your area or the world? Should they?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
A friend is a senior manager at my place of work, and had to fire about half a dozen people last year (because of general downsizing - not for cause). HR insisted that the "perp walk" technique be used. My friend arranged to meet the firees in some location away from his office or theirs, so that they'd have some privacy and wouldn't be frog-marched past their colleagues, but he was unable to convince HR that the security guard was unnecessary.
The HR folks were genuinely scared that someone getting fired might flip out, grab some kind of weapon and attack them.
I don't think I can overstate how angry basically every one of my non-HR colleagues - from new hires to one level down from the CEO - is with the perp walk, and I have some hope that it won't be happening again.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
Employees judge their company partly by how they see fellow employees treated, so I think this backfires.
In one job decades ago when our section was to be significantly downsized, the boss said he was suppose to tell people on a Friday afternoon they were terminated and walk them to their desk to get their things then to the door, the theory being terminated employees are poison who will drag down the morale of the whole remaining office spewing anger so you have to not let them stick around after they know they are losing their job.
He said he trusted us to behave professionally and gave us 6 months notice instead of waiting to the end of the 6 months to tell us on the last Friday. I have long felt grateful to him, it gave us time to job hunt or decide whether to go back to school and land on our feet while still churning out decent work that last 6 months.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
The only reason I know about this behaviour is because aspects of it are fundamental to the movie Up In The Air. Specifically, the idea of calling in 'professionals' to handle the dismissal process. It does involve people being told to collect their things. I can't recall whether it shows security being present for this.
I've never seen such behaviour in real life. But then, I work in the public sector, maybe the local private sector does see this kind of thing.
[ 30. May 2014, 02:41: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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ToujoursDan
Ship's prole
# 10578
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Posted
I work in HR and this is fairly standard practice (except it is usually handled much much more discreetly.) But generally once the decision is made to terminate the employee, they aren't given access to their office. It seems (and is) harsh to the employee, but is meant to protect the assets of a company from retaliation or sabotage.
An employee who has been terminated may attempt to go in and delete important files or emails or misuse equipment or claim an onsite injury which can be used to stop a termination.
99.999999% of employees who have been involuntarily terminated aren't going to do anything but the 1980s and 1990s are littered with disgruntled employees shooting up a workplace or claiming injury to stay employed or other actions, so this has become the accepted practice to handle these decisions are made.
[ 30. May 2014, 02:44: Message edited by: ToujoursDan ]
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"Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola
Facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan
Posts: 3734 | From: NYC | Registered: Oct 2005
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
99.999999% of employees who have been involuntarily terminated aren't going to do anything but the 1980s and 1990s are littered with disgruntled employees shooting up a workplace or claiming injury to stay employed or other actions, so this has become the accepted practice to handle these decisions are made.
Sorry, but I don't grasp the logic of this. Certainly not in relation to something like 'shooting up a workplace'. All you do is turn the headline from 'shooting spree by disgruntled employee' to 'shooting spree by disgruntled ex-employee'.
File security, yes, but in this day and age your file security and back-up should be a HELL of a lot more thorough than 'if a cranky person decides to delete it, it's gone'. That might have been a justification in the 1980s or 1990s. I can't see that being a sensible justification in 2014.
[ 30. May 2014, 02:48: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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ToujoursDan
Ship's prole
# 10578
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Posted
In most large companies (which is what I'm familiar with) you have to go through a level of security to get into the workplace. It's far more difficult for an ex-employee to commit workplace violence than a current but involuntarily terminated employee. Again, it probably has to do with how security is physically managed at a worksite. We're talking about degrees of protection.
Every company I work at does daily backups of email and files but while email can be backed up, I don't know that anyone has an up-to-the-minute ability to back up files.
It's believed to be far less problematic to remove a fired employee than to keep him/her onsite. The potential risk is lower.
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"Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola
Facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan
Posts: 3734 | From: NYC | Registered: Oct 2005
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
I work in HR and this is fairly standard practice (except it is usually handled much much more discreetly.) But generally once the decision is made to terminate the employee, they aren't given access to their office. It seems (and is) harsh to the employee, but is meant to protect the assets of a company from retaliation or sabotage.
An employee who has been terminated may attempt to go in and delete important files or emails or misuse equipment or claim an onsite injury which can be used to stop a termination.
99.999999% of employees who have been involuntarily terminated aren't going to do anything but the 1980s and 1990s are littered with disgruntled employees shooting up a workplace or claiming injury to stay employed or other actions, so this has become the accepted practice to handle these decisions are made.
I'd like to see actual statistics about the disgruntled doing bad things. When you say "littered", it contrasts with the 99.99999%. Do you have any? Mightn't security showing up cause problems? It would certainly get my negative attention. In this case, a dean of a university school. Senior administrator and academic. Doesn't sound like HR involved making judgements. Merely getting out the hit squad. Highly inappropriate.
I've heard of this before this occasion I posted about. The last one was also in the public sector.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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ToujoursDan
Ship's prole
# 10578
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Posted
What? Terminated employees returning and committing violence? According to the Bureau of Labour Statistics, in the U.S. alone there are about 70 workplace shootings committed by co-workers each year. The number that are prompted by a termination isn't broken out and the number of other acts of violence (where a firearm isn't used) isn't broken out either. Of course, this is a tiny fraction of the number of employees that are dismissed each year however it's a big enough concern that all the HR departments I have worked in over 30 years at 7 companies use similar preventive action when dealing with an involuntary termination.
[ 30. May 2014, 03:15: Message edited by: ToujoursDan ]
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"Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola
Facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan
Posts: 3734 | From: NYC | Registered: Oct 2005
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Arabella Purity Winterbottom
Trumpeting hope
# 3434
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Posted
I'm fairly sure you couldn't sack employees in permanent positions without some (more than an hour's) prior notice here in NZ. And I've never heard of the perp walk - thank God. I suspect the perpetrators of it would end up with their asses in the Employment Court being done over for improper practice.
Even in cases I know of where there has been just cause the employee was escorted in and out of the building after hours so they weren't exposed to the stares of everyone else - we had two such early on in my current place of employment.
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Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal
Posts: 3702 | From: Aotearoa, New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2002
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
It's varied at the companies I've worked at. In general the general plan is to make the employee go away without being seen by fellow employees. In mass layoffs, people will be called into two separate meetings. The ones being fired will be escorted to their desks to get personal belongings and leave before the other meeting is finished. In single terminations, the person is usually walked out and a time after work is scheduled to clean out personal belongings.
I did have a boyfriend once who was at a company that had such a mass layoff on a Friday. Around Tuesday they realized they had let go the wrong group and there were a lot of hasty phone calls to try to get them back.
I think it's as much not to depress the remaining employees as safety considerations. I work in software development so things are fairly loose, in part because it is not unusual to have to call said terminated employee with a technical question. Sales and Marketing people were treated much more strictly to make sure confidential customer information did not leave with the employee.
Of course this is fairly nonsensical in that you can copy all the information you want before you are terminated if you suspect it's going to happen. And the typical behavior at the places I've worked included drinks of the still working with the terminated at the end of the work day.
Some of the nicer layoffs included help with a job hunting consultant at a different location to help get a new job. Those don't seem as common these days.
[ 30. May 2014, 03:54: Message edited by: Palimpsest ]
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
I have heard of worse, mainly in financial institutions. People came to work and their security passes didn't function, they were then taken by security into a room and en masse told that they were being retrenched.
I also understand that in many US companies, if you resign as well as if you are terminated, you will do the perp walk-they give you a box and security takes you to your desk, you put your coffee mug and any personal effects in it and you are escorted off the premises. Supposedly it prevents you either stealing the company's intellectual property and/or sabotaging anything, eg computer data etc.
IMO, you are only surprised to think that the perp walk is HR best practice if you labour under the false impression that HR gives a rat's a*&e about the people who work in the company-they exist to protect the company, they are not the employee's friend-ever.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Palimpsest: quote:
I think it's as much not to depress the remaining employees as safety considerations. I work in software development so things are fairly loose, in part because it is not unusual to have to call said terminated employee with a technical question.
And they don't tell the inquirers to stick it in their ear? Amazing.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
1980s and 1990s are littered with disgruntled employees shooting up a workplace
Most people don't take weapons to work on a regular basis. On the other hand, which thing do you think is going to make someone more likely to go home, get his guns, then return to work and start shooting people? Being treated like a decent, honest human being (and if you were employing him yesterday, presumably you do think that he's a decent honest human being) or being treated like a criminal?
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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DangerousDeacon
Shipmate
# 10582
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Posted
Is this one of those "only in America things"? AFAIK in Australia most terminations are with notice (so the person has weeks or months to finish work) and the "perp walk" would only be used in rare circumstances (possibility of violence, classified information, etc).
The only time I was terminated (my contract as a University lecturer came to an end) about a week after semester finished and the results were all in, I just packed up the office, had drinks with colleagues, and drove into the sunset. Mind you, when they asked for my help a few months later I told them to ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
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'All the same, it may be that I am wrong; what I take for gold and diamonds may be only a little copper and glass.'
Posts: 506 | From: Top End | Registered: Oct 2005
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Starbug
Shipmate
# 15917
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Posted
I work for local govt in the UK. I just had to suspend an employee who has access to the whole computer system and, in the words of our security guy, could 'delete a whole department'. I took him up to HR, where an advisor and I met with him. We gave him a few minutes to go back to the office and get his things, while the HR advisor rang through my boss to get his IT account disabled When he came back, we checked whether he needed a lift home and then I took his security pass and escorted him out of the building. The HR advisor told me this is common practice if theperson is beleived to be a risk due to their securitty or IT access.
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“Oh the pointing again. They're screwdrivers! What are you going to do? Assemble a cabinet at them?” ― The Day of the Doctor
Posts: 1189 | From: West of the New Forest | Registered: Sep 2010
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Palimpsest: quote:
I think it's as much not to depress the remaining employees as safety considerations. I work in software development so things are fairly loose, in part because it is not unusual to have to call said terminated employee with a technical question.
And they don't tell the inquirers to stick it in their ear? Amazing.
It is hard to resist answering if the answer includes pointing out how your odious manager insisted on doing things the wrong way leading to the very problem they are asking about ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I work in the NHS, and I used to be a union rep.
In my experience, if you are being made redundant you gets months of notice. There is an internal redoployment process first (where they try and move you into any existing other vacancy you are qualified for) because they don't want to have to pay out for the redundancy if they can avoid it. Often, in that situation, staff would rather get the redundancy package - negotiate for early retirement or whatever.
If, on the other hand, you are suspended for investigation around some issue, they will walk you off the premises, and you wouldn't pack your stuff up or anything (no box with mug etc). Colleagues may not contact you until the investigation is over etc., but that is most likely to happen if you are accused of abusing a patient in some way.
Security wouldn't be involved though. Largely because we don't really have anything much. If we have security issues - e.g a few months ago someone lay down in the lobby in protest and wouldn't leave, we call the police. (And of course the police are not going to turn up to sort out our HR issues.)
[ 30. May 2014, 06:37: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
ing about degrees of protection.
Every company I work at does daily backups of email and files but while email can be backed up, I don't know that anyone has an up-to-the-minute ability to back up files.
I have this on my thesis computer. That is me as an individual person, not me as a multinational corporate body. What is more, it is both offsite and onsite backup. I suppose you can tell I work in computing by this. I also carry a third copy of my thesis around on my USB stick.
The technology is there, the companies who are not doing it are just too tight arsed to pay for it. Which shows how much they really value their data.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Dan
Here is the Wikipedia Article. Now go and read Piglets recent posts on the British thread in All Saints. Companies that need to have up to the minute data stored must implement these as virus creators are now getting viruses to hide the data and hold the data to ransom.
Jengie
[ 30. May 2014, 07:59: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
I just checked, there are minimum notice periods under Australian law.
Although I suspect that technically this is about how long you are paid for. It is probably still possible to instruct someone not to come into work during the notice period.
EDIT: And then, like a smart person, I followed the link to another page and confirmed you can be paid out.
[ 30. May 2014, 08:15: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
Standard practice in the Financial Sector since at least the early 1990's.
The worst case I've come across at first hand experience was someone who was sacked like this, his PA was told to bring take him home in his company car and bring it back. Whereupon she was dismissed in the same way.
The law may have changed but in the UK you could be dismissed for redundancy without any notice provided you were paid in lieu of that notice.
If the payoff was above a certain amount 9at one time £30k), then no one was bothered about abuse of process - the court couldn't award any damages as the person had already received more than £30K. In one well known UK Financial Organisation (still trading healthily) I was at a meeting where it was said "We're not concerned about a few industrial tribunals." Knowing a few of the current senior execs, I doubt much is changed.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Bob Two-Owls
Shipmate
# 9680
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Palimpsest: quote:
...it is not unusual to have to call said terminated employee with a technical question.
And they don't tell the inquirers to stick it in their ear? Amazing.
Happened to me a few years ago. I was made redundant by an aerospace company which was downsizing its top security work. I was called a few weeks after my leaving date and quizzed by the one remaining person with a Top Secret rating about the work I had left. I replied that I had left everything with the project manager and the librarian and he should go and see them. It turned out that both my former manager and colleague had lost their security ratings during a police crackdown on kerb-crawlers and neither of them could access any part of the project documentation to pass on to a new project engineer. They wanted me back for a month to hand the project over to another division, the only time I ever had the ultimate power over negotiations! I made the dirty beggars rue the day.
As for how I was finished, I got stopped at the gatehouse one morning and all my security passes were taken from me. I was then presented with a cardboard box with all my personal effects from my desk and told to report to an office on the other side of town. I basically spent a month reading sci-fi and playing on an x-box in a rented office while people rang me up to ask me about various project documents, along with the other dozen or so people being made redundant. Not much fun being sent to Room 101 (I kid you not) but the company did not allow leaving employees to go on "gardening" leave, you had to report in every day or lose your enhanced redundancy pay.
Posts: 1262 | Registered: Jul 2005
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
I was made redundant from a FTSE 100 company. When I was told I was given a new IT login and ID card to enter the building that limited my access to confidential information. I was allowed to return to my desk and say goodbyes to my colleagues for as long as I wanted that day, but once I exited the building I'd only have access to the ground floor and HR floors thereafter until the end of the notice period.
I don't see how a security guard escort out of the building is the best way to protect data, it probably costs more, and it humiliates the person who has been let go. And in terms of violence - if as in my case the person has no access to their former desk once exiting the building, how can they go on a shooting spree? Do people have guns in their desks?
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
I only know of one person who has been escorted out of the building, though that was not for a redundancy or firing, but because he had handed in his resignation and told his line manager that he had accepted a job offer from his company's main rival. As he had access to client lists, the guard was there to ensure that he didn't breach the post-termination clauses of his contract.
I was "fired" once after highlighting a potential irregularity in the finances. I didn't have enough evidence to go whistleblowing to the audit committee but I mistakenly trusted the group financial controller. As I had only been there a couple of months, I was on a probationary period. After getting some unimportant subsidiary accounts signed, I was invited to a debrief meeting regarding these accounts. Then the meeting got pushed back from 4pm to 6:30pm. Then it got moved from someone's private office to the board room. When I walked in, a small panel were waiting for me with documents laid out on the table. I was informed that I had not passed my probationary period and that my employment would be terminated immediately. While I was in that meeting, my IT access was cut so I couldn't gather any necessary evidence that may have been helpful.
Since then, both the finance director and the chief executive have resigned, I complied with all requests made by the serious fraud office who were informed by an anonymous whistleblower (not me, though I think I know who it was) and the company has since changed its name.
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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
Posts: 3791 | From: On the corporate ladder | Registered: Jan 2012
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
I've heard of heard of a number of examples of this kind of thing. Two of which happened to close friends of mine (both in North America).
In the first instance, everyone was taken into a room. Were told that there would be an envelope on a tray at the back of the room with their name on it. The envelopes sent people to one of two rooms. One lot were told they were being kept on - the other lot were let go. Shades of the sheep and goats here.
In the other instance everyone was told to pack their bags, and sit at their desks with their coats on and expect a phone call from HR that would tell them whether to leave, or stay.
Ironically, in the canonical example of people 'going postal' they were actually employed in a place that wouldn't have a 'fire at will' policy (The US Postal Service). I suspect what's happened is that whilst the actual incidences of people flipping out after being fired is tiny - the FEAR of it is huge, and this is what leads to silly HR policies.
In reality most of those workplace shootings seem to have occured whilst the individual was still in full time employment.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
If the payoff was above a certain amount 9at one time £30k), then no one was bothered about abuse of process - the court couldn't award any damages as the person had already received more than £30K. In one well known UK Financial Organisation (still trading healthily) I was at a meeting where it was said "We're not concerned about a few industrial tribunals." Knowing a few of the current senior execs, I doubt much is changed.
Yes, it's very much seen as just a cost of doing business, and will remain so as long as breaking the law of the land ends up with derisory penalties.
When a prior employer went into chapter 11, the large accountancy firm that was employed to manage costs pulled a number of employees into a room to fire them. It was pointed out that they were all over the age of 55 and so would have been expensive to make redundant in normal circumstances. The accountants admitted on recorded audio that this was the case - afaict even though the case went to court the sanctions were a tiny fraction of the fee being charged.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Candide
Apprentice
# 15755
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Posted
Norway has a minimum termination period of one month. (14 days during the probationary period). I've seen others mention similar periods in other countries. To my knowledge, this hasn't really been a problem. No serious destruction of the former employers property, no deleting of work. (I work with the unemployed, and see a huge amount of cases on a daily basis.)
This makes me think that it might be the time frame itself that (at least partially) triggers those few cases that ToujoursDan talk about. Panic and anger at having everything pulled away from you, with no real time to let the news settle. Ordinary people committing acts of vandalism, tends to be the result of extraordinary circumstances. By having a significant notice period, the normality of the situation is to some extent returned, and gives the employee a time frame to work on getting a new job.
Posts: 36 | From: Norway | Registered: Jul 2010
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Caissa
Shipmate
# 16710
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Posted
When I received a layoff notice 8 years ago my supervisor took me to a meeting with HR, encouraged me to ask all the questions I needed answered, and to take the rest of the day off if I needed to do so. I think I received 4-6 weeks notice. Fortunately, during that time period another job was found for me in the department. I filled in for a mat leave and when she decided not to return I remained in that position.
Posts: 972 | From: Saint John, N.B. | Registered: Oct 2011
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
In my own redundancy in 1995 I was given 3 months notice. On my last day I was out of the office until 4.30 ish. On my return they'd already removed my initials from my reserved parking spot.
Last laugh: I went back to the same desk next day as a freelance consultant on double the pay.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
This happened a loooong time ago.....
One of the companies I worked for had a boss who was renowned for her ruthlessness in firing people. One employee famously went off on holiday for two weeks. On his way home, he dropped off at the office to check how things had gone (which shows that he was probably more conscientious that I ever would have been). As he walked into reception, he was puzzled by the strange looks people were giving him. Conversation with work colleagues was rather strained. Then the boss appeared.
"Have you been home yet?" She asked.
"No - I'm just going home now."
"Well, I suggest you go home now."
There, waiting for him, was the letter telling him he had been fired and the box of stuff from his desk.
(And yes - she DID know he was on holiday. The timing was not accidental)
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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decampagne
Shipmate
# 17012
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Posted
Sounds unnecessarily horrific, as a general rule.
I work in the publishing sector. Over the last few years our department has had a couple of rounds of redundancies. In general the way they were managed was reasonably satisfactory and humane:
Two meetings were called, on separate floors of the same building. All those whose positions were being retained were sent to one meeting, with our director; those who were being made redundant to another, with the head of HR. In both cases, a preprepared, identical, text was read - and no questions were taken, at that stage. But everyone being made redundant was then offered a series of meetings, over a period of weeks (the redundancies taking effect 1-2 months after he meeting), to discuss possible alternative positions, redundancy payments, and outsourcing placements to recruitment consultants. And then there were rounds of individual consulting meetings (at which a union rep or another chosen individual could attend alongside the person concerned.)
Posts: 86 | From: Oxfordshire | Registered: Mar 2012
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
A secretary at work was terminated with one full day notice so she could turn over all the records in neat order. No severance pay. She and the other secretaries pointed out that they are expected to give two weeks notice, shouldn't the company give the same transition courtesy?
From then on, any secretary who quit (that I knew of) gave no notice. She usually told her friends at work when she was ready to walk out the door at 5.
(I was a contractor, outside the direct employment system.)
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Palimpsest: quote:
I think it's as much not to depress the remaining employees as safety considerations. I work in software development so things are fairly loose, in part because it is not unusual to have to call said terminated employee with a technical question.
And they don't tell the inquirers to stick it in their ear? Amazing.
I was once let go without notice from an IT managerial position when the company, behind my back, decided to outsource the IT operation.
People used to e-mail me with technical questions for awhile afterwards, and I always answered back that they shouldn't take it personally, that they knew I thought the world of them, but that if the present IT support team could not answer their question, then the company might want to rethink its decision.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
This happened to me. Meeting at 10AM, "frog-marched" out of the office by security guy. The company had recently broken its union (labour jurisdiction: Ontario, Canada) and had a nasty reputation. I was there for 2.5 months. They did not provide a reason for this termination, which means they had no good one. No severance was due to me under Ontario law.
No it's crap and undignified. Also very rude.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
We have this discussion every few months on here it seems.
quote:
Originally posted by Arabella Purity Winterbottom:
I'm fairly sure you couldn't sack employees in permanent positions without some (more than an hour's) prior notice here in NZ. And I've never heard of the perp walk - thank God. I suspect the perpetrators of it would end up with their asses in the Employment Court being done over for improper practice.
..
Quite the opposite here in Canada.
Notice is provided in writing.
Severance is at the discretion of the employer but usually is given within Labour Law framework.
The phrase "perp walk" is not used by HR. You'd love to do this before anybody else gets there, but realistically, that's not going to happen. Any HR department that actually tries to humiliate somebody is going to get sued. Humiliating somebody does absolutely no good.
What you want to do, is let them go, escort them to their desk so they can get any personal items, and then escort them off the property.
Why?
Two reasons
a) The afore mentioned "they might do something"
b) so nobody accuses them of doing something (You'd all be surprised how often people don't actually like somebody who has been fired)
c) Cause having them talk with their now former colleagues while at work is going to cause a lot of issues.
This is not easy for anybody, and the idea that bosses enjoy this is false.
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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hilaryg
Shipmate
# 11690
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Posted
As a Brit working in the US in an "at will" state I've witnessed it several times in my office and it's horrific. The thing that shocks most is the way the ex-employee is whisked away without any opportunity to say goodbye, and they are never mentioned again. It's mostly happened for performance reasons, so the firing was not a surprise for everyone else but the method is awful and terribly demoralising for the rest of us.
Apart from my OK performance reviews, the only thing that gives me any sense of job security here is that it is in my contract that the company will pay full cost to repatriate me should they decide my services are no longer required. I'm expensive to 'let go'.
Posts: 261 | From: back home in England | Registered: Jul 2006
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
Quite the opposite here in Canada.
...The phrase "perp walk" is not used by HR. You'd love to do this before anybody else gets there, but realistically, that's not going to happen. Any HR department that actually tries to humiliate somebody is going to get sued. Humiliating somebody does absolutely no good.
What you want to do, is let them go, escort them to their desk so they can get any personal items, and then escort them off the property.
Uh... which differs from the above-described "perp-walk" how, exactly? What you've described is EXACTLY what we've been talking about, just from the other side of the transaction. I can't see a single thing different in your chronology. So, while it may feel to you as an HR professional like you are being kind and avoiding humiliation and being responsible for all the reasons you just delineated... what you are actually doing is experienced quite differently by those you have terminated. Maybe you have good reasons for the way you are doing it, maybe you do hate it almost as much as the person who is now trying to figure out how to feed his/her family... but don't pretend it's not humiliating.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
There is a firm of solicitors here (no names, but they boasted of being part of a world-wide group in the days when that was basically unknown) where the practice was that an employee would return from lunch to find what had been the contents of the desk now in a green garbage bag on top. This without any notice - the actual dismissal followed.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
It seems to me that having an HR hitman or woman do the nasty is avoidant and allows supervisors who should look the person in eye to avoid confrontation. It sounds inauthentic in terms of relations with others. Lacks integrity. As a business owner, I have only ever let people go directly myself. I have consulted but cannot imagine contracting my responsibilities.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
c) Cause having them talk with their now former colleagues while at work is going to cause a lot of issues.
And having them talk to those same ex colleagues out of work, after the additional ignominy of the perp walk, isn't going to cause any issues at all?
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
The practice seems to assume vindictiveness, or at least the risk of it. Pay in lieu of notice used to be regarded as a kindness, enabling someone to start immediately and without distraction on the hunt for a new job.
In my mid-50's, I was made redundant (very willingly) as a result of a privatisation exercise. It was a good deal. I served three months notice, did some useful work during that period and organised a farewell "do" for friends and colleagues on my last day. At the "do", I was thanked publicly for my thirty-odd years of work for the same organisation and made an acceptance speech in reply. It was a good occasion; some regret but mostly thankfulness and relief. But it belonged to a different era, a different work culture - the public sector in the UK in the mid 1990's.
So the information on this thread came as a bit of a shock to me. The world of work has become more Darwinian, more ruthless, less concerned with the damage to "losers" in the battles which determine the "survival of the fittest". The approach seems likely to foster bitterness in those who leave and fear in those who remain. However it may be justified, it strikes me as nasty.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
We aren't like this yet in the UK public sector, and one of the reasons I like working there (more than I would in the private) is that this sort of vindictive public shaming isn't part of the culture.
The HR people who think this is "best practice" would in a former age presumably have been public hangmen, or held the whip hand in public floggings. Cunch of bunts if you ask me.
Essentially this is treating people as things. When that happens, the devil dances a happy dance.
[ 31. May 2014, 14:20: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Those are good points. Is there a sea change in the world of work, which I have missed and am behind the times?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hilaryg:
the method is awful and terribly demoralising for the rest of us.
Maybe that is why they do it - to keep everyone else 'on their toes', working harder, in case it's their turn next.
[ 31. May 2014, 15:45: Message edited by: leo ]
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by hilaryg:
the method is awful and terribly demoralising for the rest of us.
Maybe that is why they do it - to keep everyone else 'on their toes', working harder, in case it's their turn next.
I've never really been convinced that "pour encourager les autres" is a particularly successful style of management.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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hilaryg
Shipmate
# 11690
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Maybe that is why they do it - to keep everyone else 'on their toes', working harder, in case it's their turn next.
I've never really been convinced that "pour encourager les autres" is a particularly successful style of management.
It certainly doesn't at my place, it only encourages others to polish up their resumes. We've even had someone pulled out of a meeting they were running with external visitors to be fired, great PR.
On a related note, people who resign and generally give the polite-but-not-required two weeks notice are forbidden to tell anyone. What this secrecy is supposed to achieve I don't know, as the resulting disappearance of colleagues has exactly the same effect as the walk of shame.
I could write an essay on the differences I've found in employment culture in my industry on both sides of the Atlantic. As we have management reporting relationships that extend transatlantically, I've tried to make a point of explaining the UK culture and law a bit to my colleagues here. What I've found in my company is the US is more 'quick to hire, quick to fire' and has a higher turnover of staff. Whereas in the UK we are a lot pickier about who we employ - subsequent length of service is longer, and we put more effort into development of underperforming staff.
Posts: 261 | From: back home in England | Registered: Jul 2006
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Maybe that is why they do it - to keep everyone else 'on their toes', working harder, in case it's their turn next.
Alternatively, HR departments realise that if every dismissal is "difficult", they can claim that they're necessary to deal with these situations...
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012
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