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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Some steps forward, other steps back
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Chocoholic
Shipmate
# 4655
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Posted
We often hear of how things were "better in the old days", but there are many things that have improved: access to healthcare, clean drinking water, housing etc etc.
However some things certainly seem to be going downhill with an increase in antisocial behaviour, selfishness and violent crime and economic equality worsening. This makes me wonder if social justice and generosity will become less and less common.
While this isn't a straightforward situation, and is likely to vary depending on where in the world you are, what do shipmates think about this and what the general trend is?
Posts: 773 | From: London | Registered: Jun 2003
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
Which 'old days' had you in mind? If you think there's unchecked crime now, how about before there was a police force? Public drunkeness? 'Drunk for a penny, dead drunk for tuppence'. Kindliness? Have you read the 'Jest Books' whose staples are jibes at physical disability? Bedlam, anyone?
The squalor and danger of our ancestors' lives is difficult for us to imagine: the casual cruelty and barbarous inequalities of everyday life are there in the literature of the past - but even more so in that part which is less read: the newspapers and ballads and pulp fiction and public records.
Today may not be great, but as the man said about being 80, I prefer it to the alternative.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
I read Victorian newspapers regularly and I think life is far better today. Infanticide, for one thing; unwanted babies are no longer routinely disposed of in the nearest canal. In my nearest city, I think about one dead baby a month was found. Women with PND rarely jump down wells these days; in Victorian times there were regular reports of post natal suicides.
Public executions are no longer regarded as a fun family day out.
There's much, much less violence; children aren't subject to corporal punishment in schools, and it's less socially acceptable to hit your children as a means of discipline. Domestic violence isn't regarded as a private matter between husband and wife.
Aberdeen, my nearest city, was a quarter of the size in 1897 it is now, but it had more prostitutes then. The police reckoned that once a woman became a prostitute in Aberdeen her life expectancy was four years. Four years.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Chocoholic
Shipmate
# 4655
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Posted
Don't get me wrong, I know all these things are amazingly better, but some things seem to be getting worse compared to maybe 10 years ago - I suppose I was wondering if we have peaked and are now declining in some areas?
Posts: 773 | From: London | Registered: Jun 2003
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
I think that whilst it's easy to make comparisons between, say, 1814, 1914 and 2014, it's much harder to make comparisons between 2004 and 2014.
My gut feeling, though, is that we are on a steady upwards trajectory.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
We were on an upwards trajectory until perhaps the early eighties last century. Things have flattened out since then for those of us who aren't obscenely rich.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
Crime isn't the only dimension, but it's one which is cited most often. Here's a report from the BBC in January this year..
In quite a few of the comments it's apparent that people simply don't believe the statistics, mostly because (IMHO) it is contrary to their preconceptions.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
People regularly believe that crime rates are going up even when they are going down. For the simple reason that they notice the reporting of crime in the media, constantly, and don't notice the non-reporting of non-crime.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Have a look at THE BETTER ANGELS OF OUR NATURE, by Stephen Pinker. His argument is that things have definitely been getting better over time. And he cites statistics to bolster his case.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
I think you can see quite a bit of difference in the past 20 years.
Look no further than the computer you are using and the internet. 20 years ago you probably would have had a dial up modem that was 5 kb speed. Heck, I can remember when we upgraded to 10kb. I thought my face was being ripped off.
Cell phones are everywhere now and they are getting smarter. The little cameras they use are much better than the digital camera I bought five years ago.
Cars are much more efficient and improving every model year. The quality of vehicles are much better.
Crime continues to trend down.
Medical advances continue.
Yes, there is this pesky thing called climate change, but we can still mitigate its impact.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
We were on an upwards trajectory until perhaps the early eighties last century.
Who are "We"?
Those living in the UK?
Westerners in general?
The global middle classes?
Humanity in general??
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
Whenever I think about obscenities which were accepted in the past without thought or comment, I try to imagine what subsequent generations will look back on which we (Western middle-class people) tolerate now, and be moved to say, "What were they thinking?"
I suspect it might include our treatment of animals.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
The closest we ever came to a "Golden Age" in terms of less crime was probably in the 1950s, where people were still trying to recover from the devastating effects of the war and had neither the energy nor inclination to go looking for trouble.
But in that era there would have been a lot of people who were struggling with stress, mental illness, loss, deep trauma, much of it brought on by the war, some of it undiagnosed, and young people who hadn't been through the war getting into trouble. Also the rationing that went on in that era made life very grey and dull, though it was probably a safer era in that there was less crime, drugs weren't half as much of a problem and neither was terrorism as it is today.
I can't think of any other era that was a shining light in terms of less crime. There have always been no-go areas in cities - these days they're policed better - and in Victorian London a woman out on her own might well attract unwelcome attention if she deviated from the norm in any way - even just for the design of her hat as much as inadvertently taking a wrong turning. People felt free to yell abuse or misbehave in a way they wouldn't half as much today, given the police and CCTV around now.
I think what you're possibly getting is is that there is less of a community feeling these days. It's entirely possible to live in a block of flats for years and never know your neighbours' names, or build up social contacts in an area because you commute a long distance to work and your life is more there than at "home", and all you want to do at the end of the day is slump in front of the television.
I'd agree that people do seem to be ruder and more selfish than when I was growing up and courtesy has become more perfunctory - giving up seats on public transport and writing thank-you notes are two things that spring instantly to mind, and there are probably more; but I think eventually the pendulum will swing the other way.
[ 01. June 2014, 08:48: Message edited by: Ariel ]
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
What we always have to remember is that the big view of history that we take is written and controlled by the successful.
Nigel Farages vision of a past in which Britain was great is actually true - it was good. For his class. The history he sees and portrays is one which ignores the huge suffering by the many - including children.
Whereas today, we have a much wider perspective of how things are. This is not "today" as in at this stage of development, it means the point at which we currently are. What we see now is always a different type of picture to the one we have of history.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
We were on an upwards trajectory until perhaps the early eighties last century. Things have flattened out since then for those of us who aren't obscenely rich.
Apart from the questions you've already been asked about this, just give a few moments thought to the general improvement in the treatment of some medical conditions. Lothlorien's granddaughter, suffering from acute lymphatic leukaemia, now has a much better than 90% chance of going into remission in a couple of years. 10 years ago, that was 50%; 20 years ago, less than 10%. What a dramatic improvement and with minimal publicity. The success rate for women with breast cancer has also had a great improvement, even if not to the same extent. There are similar stories in the treatment of those suffering from AIDS, from non-Hodgkin's lymphoma and a range of other illnesses.
Now, of course these successes have largely been in advanced economies, and a child in sub-Saharan Africa is still at much greater risk of either suffering from AIDS themselves or to have had at least 1 parent die from it. OTOH, such quiet work as that of the Hamlin fistula centres in Ethiopia are making a difference. The great improvements in public health in the Western countries from WW II onwards are being extended to more and more countries.
Perhaps you could answer the questions already posed and one further - define and explain what you mean by "things".
[ 01. June 2014, 09:58: Message edited by: Gee D ]
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
In most Western societies, we no longer automatically imprison people for "being gay" (although there still are those who want to)
At least in my area, a teen mum is not shunned; rather, she is helped by her friends, by the school and by the community. No more "going to visit her aunt" and then into domestic service.
Churches are no longer automatically the center of All That is Good. This may or may not be a Good Thing, depending on your experience, but it has removed the "odour of sanctity" from some pretty nasty stuff.
The police are subject to much more supervision, given that everyone seems to have a cellphone camera. so their job is both harder and easier, for different reasons.
We no longer respect education, now that everyone has access, even those who have absolutely no desire for it. In some areas, it is a point of pride for politicians to demean education and educators.
Our political parties are driven by polling and simple partisanship, with little regard for the good of the country. And the polling is becoming less accurate, now that (again) most people use cellphones (so they don't receive the polling calls)
We rely far too much on individual automobiles, so there is far less sense of community. From house to car to parking to work means no interactions at the casual "Good Morning" level.
As the churches decline, there are fewer places where we meet even those people who Think Like Us.
Health care solutions are improving, but the level of demand is also increasing, so there are more people not receiving some of those benefits.
Which is better or worse?
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
I think that you could take almost any year in history and find something in the newspapers which reflected a feeling that, in some way, society was collapsing.
Then, when society fails to collapse, it's easy to forget that there was ever a huge level of concern.
From my own area of academic knowledge, there was a certain amount of panic when the birth rate amongst the middle classes dropped in the 1920s, but the birth rate amongst the working classes and, in particular Irish immigrant Roman Catholics, remained high. Graphs were drawn showing the point at which Protestant society could be expected to collapse, along with the educational system.
Then there was panic over pollution and the increase in respiratory illnesses. Headlines asked "Will this be the first generation in which parents' life expectancy is longer than that of their children?" (I've seem similar questions asked now re increasing obesity) What actually happened was the introduction of the Clean Air Acts etc, but there was a point at which society seemed to be about to cough and choke its way into inevitable collapse.
The "golden age of education" seems to be pretty much fixed at thirty years earlier - the earliest I've found was a speaker in the 1880s who felt the "golden age" had been in the 1850s, but every decade since then, I've found someone on record complaining about declining standards of education. In the 1890s, businesses were complaining of the difficulty of recruiting clerks with good spelling skills; I've heard the self-same complaint made today.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Let's pick up on Horseman Bree's post. There was a book launch the other day for a biography of Murray Gleeson QC, who was consecutively Chief Justice of NSW and then Australia. The succeeding Chief Justice of NSW made the point that when Gleeson went to the Bar, the fact that he was a Roman Catholic was important and meant that originally he did not receive briefs from many of the leading firms of solicitors. By the time he was appointed Chief Justice of NSW, religion had become an irrelevant point. In a period of 25years, sectarianism had largely vanished.
Is that not also an improvement? Similar improvements include the now-irrelevance of a sportsperson's sexual preferences, and the overwhelming public support for the removal of the present requirement that married partners be of different sex.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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IconiumBound
Shipmate
# 754
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Posted
Is the base issue behind all of these comments one of the decline, real or imagined, in civility? Certainly, as a people we are much closer in contact with our friends, neighbors and even globally with the internet and social Media. But are the exchanges more or less civil than the "good old days"?
Posts: 1318 | From: Philadelphia, PA, USA | Registered: Jul 2001
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
Horseman wrote:
quote:
Our political parties are driven by polling and simple partisanship, with little regard for the good of the country. And the polling is becoming less accurate, now that (again) most people use cellphones (so they don't receive the polling calls)
Politics is one area where "Golden Age" longings should be treated with particular skepticism.
Yes, our leaders are obsessed with polling. That's because they actually have to win elections. There was presumbaly less obsession with public opinion back in the days of feudalism, or even the early modern era when only propertied males were allowed the ballot.
As for "partisanship vs. the good of the country", well, the idea of an adversarial system is that the good of the country is best served by all parties pursuing their partisan interest against one another. The job title is Leader Of The Opposition, not Leader Of People Trying To Help The Government Implement Its Agenda.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
Iconium wrote:
quote:
But are the exchanges more or less civil than the "good old days"?
It's one of those questions where you can make either viewpoint sound plausible, depending on the examples you use.
"Gosh, we're soooo oversensitive these days. You tell someone that they're lazy, and they start whining about how bad it is for their self-esteem and you're lucky if they don't sue you for emotional damages."
Or, conversealy...
"Gosh, we're soooo crass and vulgar these days. You go onto the internet, and it's "d*uchebag" this and "d*uchebag" that, and the way those politicians talk about each other, well, I just don't know what this world is coming to."
Admittedly, some of this likely depends on whose proverbial ox is being gored. With politics, if the leader of Party X calls the leader of Party Y a "d*uchebag", Party Xers will probably cheer him on for "having the guts to tell it like it is". But if it were reversed, the Party Xers would launch into maudlin lamentations about how such rhetoric "degrades the civic conversation" and whatnot.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Candide
Apprentice
# 15755
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Posted
Whenever the issue of lost civility rears its head, I can't help but recall Mozart's delightful little ditty, Leck mich im Arsch. ("Lick me in the arse"). Or one of the other scatological pieces that man produced.
Speaking of Mozart though. One of the sometimes publicly deplored failures of contemporary society, compared to various time periods of the last 3-4 hundred years, is preserving and advancing the cause of culture. Instead of Mozart, we get Miley. Instead of Beethoven, we get Bieber.
The quality of cultural expressions is notoriously hard to rank, if at all possible. Still - can the argument be made that we've lost something?
Musical education of any substantial quantity and quality, is no longer a norm amongst those who consume the music of the celebrities of our age. This lack, tends to allow simpler musical expressions to gain a bigger following than they perhaps otherwise would.
The loss then is that when education / learning is limited, then the cultural product doesn't have to be as complex as previously, to appeal to the listener / viewer / whatever.
(The same argument can probably be made on other topics. Lack of a scientific education would likely make for a loss of interest in for instance string theory, and perhaps a greater fascination for why apples fall on heads once again.)
Of course, in a complex world, then broad, generalized educations tend to be the exception. We usually need more specialists. This leaves little room for teaching subjects not absolutely necessary. Still, it is not a development without a price.
Posts: 36 | From: Norway | Registered: Jul 2010
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
The 1950s were of rare charm, if you were a white Anglo-Saxon Protestant male in a first-world country. If you weren't, you probably had a very different opinion.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
The 1950s were of rare charm, if you were a white Anglo-Saxon Protestant male in a first-world country. If you weren't, you probably had a very different opinion.
This. In the US, the evils of racism and Jim Crow in the 1950s are what led to the Civil Rights movement. It was not a great decade to be black in America.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
The "golden age of education" seems to be pretty much fixed at thirty years earlier - the earliest I've found was a speaker in the 1880s who felt the "golden age" had been in the 1850s, but every decade since then, I've found someone on record complaining about declining standards of education. In the 1890s, businesses were complaining of the difficulty of recruiting clerks with good spelling skills; I've heard the self-same complaint made today.
That might be because those complaining have usually been educated 30 years ago.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Indeed, I've no doubt that's the reason. Whatever the decade, people appear to hark back to a point 30 years earlier when education was "better."
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
Whenever I think about obscenities which were accepted in the past without thought or comment, I try to imagine what subsequent generations will look back on which we (Western middle-class people) tolerate now, and be moved to say, "What were they thinking?"
I suspect it might include our treatment of animals.
Oh yes, I wonder this too. Being a yogurt-knitting, mostly vegetarian liberal, I also think how we treat animals will feature highly on such a list. As IMO will our use of resources, e.g. growing crops to feed livestock (apparently a very inefficient use of farm land) and driving gas-guzzling cars.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
People regularly believe that crime rates are going up even when they are going down. For the simple reason that they notice the reporting of crime in the media, constantly, and don't notice the non-reporting of non-crime.
This needs to be emphasized. Crime is dropping in most places after peaking in thr 1980s.
Also, no one has to go deaf, blind, sterile or be born deformed. Vaccinations for diseases like mumps, rubella, measles prevent these.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Candide
Apprentice
# 15755
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Posted
One of my old history professors once remarked that perhaps the biggest flaw in how history was viewed in the mainstream, was that a fair number of people often see development as constant. Things either become incrementally better, or incrementally worse. There wasn't really a lot of room for things to go up, down, back up, sideways a bit, and then in whatever direction it felt like.
Still. History is an important part of personal identity. As such, it tends to stop being academical, and instead become a story to legitimize how one chooses to live.
Posts: 36 | From: Norway | Registered: Jul 2010
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
As IMO will our use of resources, e.g. growing crops to feed livestock (apparently a very inefficient use of farm land) and driving gas-guzzling cars.
You know what's worse than growing corn to feed cattle? Growing corn to feed cars...
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
You know what's worse than growing corn to feed cattle? Growing corn to feed cars...
Maybe so; I don't know enough about this to argue either way. But it's not really what I was getting at. I was mentioning two separate issues, one regarding what we eat and the other how we travel.
I gather that eating meat is far less efficient in terms of land, water and energy use than a vegetarian diet of equivalent nutrients, calories etc. And it's obvious that many people drive cars which are unnecessarily thirsty on fuel, never mind the possibility for many people of using mass transport more than they (or rather 'we' - I'm guilty too) currently do or simply making fewer journeys.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
I gather that eating meat is far less efficient in terms of land, water and energy use than a vegetarian diet of equivalent nutrients, calories etc.
I understand that for land/water use, the factor is about 7, although in some cases, livestock can be raised on land that is unsuitable for cultivation (think sheep on hillsides). I have absolutely no idea about how the labour necessary to raise pigs or cattle compares to the labour necessary to raise greens and pulses for human consumption.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
The veggies good, meat bad argument may work depending on where you live. Where I live in Canada, the fresh vegetables and fruits have to be brought by truck, 3000-4000 km depending on where they come from. The animals on the other hand eat grass, grain and hay which is local. There are farmer's markets which we all use, and most of us grow things in our gardens and some of us get additional community garden plots. But we will never come close to meeting even our summer needs in a growing season of about 90 days per year. Shorter farther north. Frozen vegetables are our friends.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Chocoholic
Shipmate
# 4655
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Posted
Originally posted by no prophet quote:
Also, no one has to go deaf, blind, sterile or be born deformed. Vaccinations for diseases like mumps, rubella, measles prevent these.
I think a trip to your local hospital, eye or audiology clinics might show that this isn't the case.
Posts: 773 | From: London | Registered: Jun 2003
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
It is a reduction in frequency. Sorry if unclear.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
We were on an upwards trajectory until perhaps the early eighties last century.
Who are "We"?
Those living in the UK?
Westerners in general?
The global middle classes?
Humanity in general??
Those living in the UK. I think it's also true of the US. It's probably also true of Westerners in general.
I believe living standards have flattened out for most people, and there has been some actual decrease for the people on the lowest incomes.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
[This needs to be emphasized. Crime is dropping in most places after peaking in thr 1980s.
Certainly violent crime is down, and for clear reasons.
It's more lucrative and harder to be caught to hack Mt Gox for Bitcoins or to steal millions of people's credit card data from Target (US big box store), than it is to break into a home to steal a TV with a street value of perhaps a few hundred dollars. And it's extremely difficult to sell a stolen car unless one is connected quite seriously into organized crime and can export it abroad.
Technology had made violent crime less rewarding and more difficult to gain from, so certainly we're better off now in terms of personal safety than in the 1970s - by a long shot. But we're at greater risk of identity theft and financial fraud. And instead of a TV or radio they can clear out your entire savings, so the scale is potentially greater as well.
Anyone who knows about crime stats - if I get my bank account details stolen by someone in a foreign country, does it count as a crime committed in my local authority?
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Cell phones are everywhere now ...
You say this like it's a good thing ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
The trouble I have with rose-tinted reminiscing of "good old days" is that it's often a mask for partisan politics. It can also then be used as an excuse for laziness.
For example, as has been pointed out, crime in the UK has been falling overall since the mid-80s. This has been used by successive governments to say how great they are, without proving beyond reasonable doubt the causation between their particular policies on crime and the statistics.
Should we not (he says, getting up on as high a horse as his little legs will manage) take a look not at trends, but merely what problems we have and look to solve them? Surely 1 violent crime is 1 too many. It doesn't matter whether or not the rate is falling, rising or steady - a society without crime is better than one with and so we should strive to improve it.
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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
Posts: 3791 | From: On the corporate ladder | Registered: Jan 2012
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Anyone who knows about crime stats - if I get my bank account details stolen by someone in a foreign country, does it count as a crime committed in my local authority?
If ten people from Country X go on holiday in Country Y and get shot dead by a spree-shooter, it would seem kind of unfair to list the murders in Country X's column. That would essentially be blaming, statistically speaking, Country X for murders it had nothing to do with.
On the other hand, crime rates are supposed to be tabulated according to the population, so how does that work if the victims aren't people who would normally be reckoned as part of the population?
And then, what about countries that have an indiginous criminal industry(eg. prostitution) that caters to foreigenrs? Things would be further complicated by the option currently exercised by governments, of trying criminal sex tourists in their own countries. (Though I think those prosecutions are still pretty rare).
In other words, I really don't know. I would guess that, in my example, Country Y would have to step up and take the blame for the murders, since to list them in Country X's rate would be VERY misleading.
[ 02. June 2014, 11:44: Message edited by: Stetson ]
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
South Coast Kevin: quote:
I was mentioning two separate issues, one regarding what we eat and the other how we travel.
I believe Leorning Cniht's point was that these are no longer separate issues, if they ever were (the Romans used oxen to pull carts and thought of beef as something only poor people ate).
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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WearyPilgrim
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# 14593
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Have a look at THE BETTER ANGELS OF OUR NATURE, by Stephen Pinker. His argument is that things have definitely been getting better over time. And he cites statistics to bolster his case.
Indeed. Pinker is a Harvard psych professor who has produced this massive, fascinating, meticulously researched tome ( thousands of footnotes) that nullifies much of the apocalyptic doomsaying of fundamentalism and politics. It's one of the most interesting books I've read in many years.
Posts: 383 | From: Sedgwick, Maine USA | Registered: Feb 2009
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Dafyd
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# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Have a look at THE BETTER ANGELS OF OUR NATURE, by Stephen Pinker. His argument is that things have definitely been getting better over time. And he cites statistics to bolster his case.
The review of Pinker's book have tended to be along the lines that he makes a good case in most of the book, except in the one area that the reviewer knows something about where he oversimplifies.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Brenda Clough
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# 18061
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Posted
Pinker's book is one of the very few which, when I had finished reading it, I prayed to God that he was right. If his thesis is correct then it is a marvelously hopeful and wonderful thing.
And, because of the power of words, people should read it. Oversimplified? Fine. Because if enough people believe it, that won't matter. It will be true. And may it be so.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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lapsed heathen
Hurler on the ditch
# 4403
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Posted
I'll just add that the last time we had an outbreak of nationalism in eastern Europe it ended in WWI, so far it's been remarkable how civilised this particular episode has been.
Are things getting better or worse? bit of both but progress means leaving things behind both good and bad, in the hope of finding better ahead.
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"We are the Easter people and our song is Alleluia"
Posts: 1361 | From: Marble county | Registered: Apr 2003
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Chocoholic
Shipmate
# 4655
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Posted
Picking back up from earlier, while a number of diseases and conditions are mercifully declined or even eradicated now, there are many conditions with an increasing prevalence including deafness, Parkinson's, Dementia, some cancers, diabetes and visual impairment. Mainly as people are living longer and so more likely to develop them, although things like allergies and asthma are also increasing and are not associated with ageing.
[ 02. June 2014, 19:47: Message edited by: Chocoholic ]
Posts: 773 | From: London | Registered: Jun 2003
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chocoholic:
This makes me wonder if social justice and generosity will become less and less common.
There's that little phrase "social justice". It appears, it seems to me, when poster wishes to tone down their real issue. If you replace the word "justice" with "ism", I think we'll get close to the OP's real intent.
Is making the world better through science, engineering and technology worth losing socialism for?
Yes of course it is. One is very good and the other is dangerous, sloppy and restrictive. We need science, engineering and technology, we don't need socialism.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Arch Anglo Catholic
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# 15181
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Posted
I rather like P J O'Rourke's answer to anyone who talks about a better time in the past:
"When you think of the good old days, think one word: dentistry."
He's right; today is really pretty good!
Posts: 144 | From: Shropshire | Registered: Sep 2009
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Odds are good that nearly everyone who reads this would be dead already, in 1500. I know I would. Contemplate your own medical history.
Only a few years ago my retina doctor saved the sight in my left eye. Intra ocular injections, ew! Unknown even ten years ago.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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