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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The old Eskimo joke and the Priest's response
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
Not presuming to answer on behalf of Mere Nick, but answering because I would have chosen some of the same Scriptures to post -- if there is no immortal soul, and immortality is given only as a gift of God to those who believe, then the Inuit person in the joke is not threatened with an eternally burning hell. He is threatened with, at worst, a non-conscious non-existence after death. The priest comes to offer him the hope of eternal life, which can only be received as a gift from God (it is not inherent to our natural state as humans, since we are mortal).
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Books and things.
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
Thanks Trudy.
So as I've mentioned upthread, does this mean that the advent of Jesus makes both eternal life AND eternal damnation possible whereas they were not before?
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yonatan:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I'm afraid I don't follow. What is the connection between the scripture quotes?
Presumably, that the soul isn't inherently immortal. Only God is.The human soul is a creation of God, and can be destroyed.
Yes, that's how it looks right now. The soul that sins shall die. Eternal life is a gift from God.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
Not presuming to answer on behalf of Mere Nick, but answering because I would have chosen some of the same Scriptures to post -- if there is no immortal soul, and immortality is given only as a gift of God to those who believe, then the Inuit person in the joke is not threatened with an eternally burning hell. He is threatened with, at worst, a non-conscious non-existence after death. The priest comes to offer him the hope of eternal life, which can only be received as a gift from God (it is not inherent to our natural state as humans, since we are mortal).
Pretty much, but it looks like a lost soul will receive punishment, being destroyed in hell. The punishment is eternal. Once destroyed, you stay destroyed. That's how it looks to me.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Thanks Trudy.
So as I've mentioned upthread, does this mean that the advent of Jesus makes both eternal life AND eternal damnation possible whereas they were not before?
It appears to me that it makes eternal life possible. With the, I suspect probable to certain, exception of children and those possessing sufficient mental defect, eternal destruction was the default end of us wicked folks.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
Ah! You see Hell as annihilation (The End), as opposed to a place of eternal torment and suffering.
While that's certainly a more palatable and OT solution, I don't think it takes account those scriptures in the New Testament that speak of eternal torment and suffering and punishment. They are still a problem.
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a theological scrapbook
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Ah! You see Hell as annihilation (The End), as opposed to a place of eternal torment and suffering.
While that's certainly a more palatable and OT solution, I don't think it takes account those scriptures in the New Testament that speak of eternal torment and suffering and punishment. They are still a problem.
Ok. I can start a threat about it all, ok?
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
From the OP of your other thread, I take it you're not an innerantist then. I thought perhaps you were.
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
So as I've mentioned upthread, does this mean that the advent of Jesus makes both eternal life AND eternal damnation possible whereas they were not before?
Does no one agree with this idea as a possibility?
The OT does not have Hell. The NT does.
[ 08. June 2014, 11:15: Message edited by: Evensong ]
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a theological scrapbook
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blackbeard
Ship's Pirate
# 10848
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Posted
Just about every theory I have seen on this general theme - not just on this thread, or even on this board, but generally - seems to consist of speculation based on a few Bible verses, but ignoring others. I haven't seen a single one which is compatible with the Bible as a whole. Can I (yet again) put forward the idea that the problem lies in our understanding, that we are not smart enough to figure out God's mind, and that the snippets of information which we have are, as it were, just single facets of the complete gem? and that some of these facets are, perhaps, of an illustrative or allegorical nature? and that God can combine justice, and mercy, and love in a way which we can't yet comprehend?
... and that some theologians who have tried to lay down how things are, and command our belief in what they have said, are not nearly so clever as they think they are?
... and, while we are here; it seems to me that external extinction of what was once a human being is only marginally less scary than eternal torment, and I am more than a bit reluctant to believe in either?
... and before this gets all too heavy ... the Bible says - yes, Jesus' own words - that prostitutes and even tax gatherers will get into the Kingdom of Heaven before the Holy Joes. Should this guide our lifestyle choices? how about a career in the Inland Revenue?
Posts: 823 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by blackbeard:
Just about every theory I have seen on this general theme - not just on this thread, or even on this board, but generally - seems to consist of speculation based on a few Bible verses, but ignoring others. I haven't seen a single one which is compatible with the Bible as a whole. Can I (yet again) put forward the idea that the problem lies in our understanding, that we are not smart enough to figure out God's mind, and that the snippets of information which we have are, as it were, just single facets of the complete gem? and that some of these facets are, perhaps, of an illustrative or allegorical nature? and that God can combine justice, and mercy, and love in a way which we can't yet comprehend?
Nicely said.
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a theological scrapbook
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by blackbeard:
Just about every theory I have seen on this general theme - not just on this thread, or even on this board, but generally - seems to consist of speculation based on a few Bible verses, but ignoring others. I haven't seen a single one which is compatible with the Bible as a whole. Can I (yet again) put forward the idea that the problem lies in our understanding, that we are not smart enough to figure out God's mind, and that the snippets of information which we have are, as it were, just single facets of the complete gem? and that some of these facets are, perhaps, of an illustrative or allegorical nature? and that God can combine justice, and mercy, and love in a way which we can't yet comprehend?
Nicely said.
And true about far more than just this one topic.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
From the OP of your other thread, I take it you're not an innerantist then. I thought perhaps you were.
I think I probably am. If there is any error it would be in my understanding of what I try to understand.
quote:
The OT does not have Hell. The NT does.
They both describe the end of the wicked, though, don't they?
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
The OT does not have Hell. The NT does.
They both describe the end of the wicked, though, don't they?
But without an afterlife, "the wicked always get their comeuppance" is demonstrably false.
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
The OT does not have Hell. The NT does.
They both describe the end of the wicked, though, don't they?
But without an afterlife, "the wicked always get their comeuppance" is demonstrably false.
Yes. To me, though, the debate is between conscious unending torment and being destroyed with the misery and duration of the destruction being related to the evil one has done. It seems to me that the weight of the evidence is on the second outcome and it would be a real drag to find out the hard way.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
From the OP of your other thread, I take it you're not an innerantist then. I thought perhaps you were.
I think I probably am. If there is any error it would be in my understanding of what I try to understand.
So the bible is not in error (or contradictory), it's just you and your lack of understanding any apparent contradictions?
If so, on one level that seems ridiculous, on another level we accept other such contradictions in tradition (e.g. The Trinity) that defy rational understanding so what the hey - perhaps you're entitled to that opinion too.
I suppose the only caveat on that might be that scripture should be intelligible in the protestant tradition.....?
[ 11. June 2014, 11:20: Message edited by: Evensong ]
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
From the OP of your other thread, I take it you're not an innerantist then. I thought perhaps you were.
I think I probably am. If there is any error it would be in my understanding of what I try to understand.
So the bible is not in error (or contradictory), it's just you and your lack of understanding any apparent contradictions?
If so, on one level that seems ridiculous, on another level we accept other such contradictions in tradition (e.g. The Trinity) that defy rational understanding so what the hey - perhaps you're entitled to that opinion too.
I suppose the only caveat on that might be that scripture should be intelligible in the protestant tradition.....?
It seems the most accurate way to put it would be to say that I realize I don't know everything. I suspect anyone who reads the bible, listens to a sermon, talks with others about what passages mean, etc, is admitting the same thing.
If I run across what appears to be contradictory, that would cause me to go back and question some of my premises.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
In scholarship, the usual mode of operation is to give the author the benefit of the doubt until you can't any longer. Sometimes you just have to give up and say, "No matter how I slice it, this is internally inconsistent."
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
The OT does not have Hell. The NT does.
They both describe the end of the wicked, though, don't they?
But without an afterlife, "the wicked always get their comeuppance" is demonstrably false.
'course, I was daft enough to be fooled into that version of Christianity that says that even with an afterlife, the wicked don't always get their comeuppance, because of this thing called grace.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
The OT does not have Hell. The NT does.
They both describe the end of the wicked, though, don't they?
But without an afterlife, "the wicked always get their comeuppance" is demonstrably false.
'course, I was daft enough to be fooled into that version of Christianity that says that even with an afterlife, the wicked don't always get their comeuppance, because of this thing called grace.
These clearly aren't the wicked to whom Mere Nick was referring. Sorry, I must rule this irrelevant.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
The wicked get their comeuppance immediately by being wicked. It's its own reward. That's my experience of being wicked. It's hell. Endless hell. The guilt, the shame, the regret, the intrusive thoughts, the rumination, the dysfunctionality go on and on and on even though I'm as white as snow in Christ - I still DID it and the effects are indelible in this life. That's bad enough. But being wicked and NOT suffering those after effects is even worse. What's worst of all is NEVER experiencing regret. What punishment could be worse than that? Being reprobate. As Satan.
Why does anyone need punishing? By what? For what? For whom? All loss will be restituted. I want NO ONE punished on my account. Does our forgiveness not count? Of others? Does Hitler need punishing? Satan? HOW? To what end? We love having Hitlers and Stalins to compare ourselves favourably with. Consider Phlebas. And then some. How would the victims of the Holocaust benefit from Hitler's punishment? And should he like Jesus bear the punishment of the one million Germans who implemented the Holocaust? That poor little boy?
Sigh.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Frankenstein
Shipmate
# 16198
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
There is a joke that I often hear and circulates online fairly often (visual here ).
quote:
Eskimo: 'If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?'
Priest: 'No, not if you did not know.'
Eskimo: 'Then why did you tell me?'
What should the Priest's response be?
(Bear in mind Jesus says something similar to the Pharisees)
Wikipedia gives us: Eskimo is a term for the indigenous peoples who have traditionally inhabited the northern circumpolar region from eastern Siberia (Russia), across Alaska (United States), Canada, and Greenland.
For Eskimo insert any other people who do not have access to Christian theology, a very large percentage of the human race.
For priest read missionary/teacher of religious instruction.
The question remains the same but has something changed and what is it?
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It is better to travel in hope than to arrive?
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Kwesi
Shipmate
# 10274
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Posted
I'm not very impressed by the priest. He has not, evidently, read Roman's Chapter 1: verses 18 to 32- though you may think that is to his credit, Evensong!
Posts: 1641 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005
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