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Source: (consider it) Thread: The Gaping Maw of Hell
Evensong
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Confirmation bias may be "largely" unconscious in the way you describe (but you're redefining the term there do you realise?) but it still requires pre-conceived notions.

I didn't have any about Jesus. I didn't know anything about him: conscious or unconscious.

[ 19. June 2014, 13:35: Message edited by: Evensong ]

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a theological scrapbook

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Confirmation bias may be "largely" unconscious in the way you describe (but you're redefining the term there do you realise?) but it still requires pre-conceived notions.

I didn't have any about Jesus. I didn't know anything about him: conscious or unconscious.

Well, I think we began by talking about evidence, as you seem to think that your own experiences are evidence. OK, my friends who have experienced past lives cite that as their evidence.

So for me, all these beliefs are similar, and I am equally skeptical about them; but I suppose Christians like to say that their evidence is that little bit extra special because the capo de tutti capi has vouchsafed them! You have to admire the chutzpah anyway.

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Evensong
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I think we began by talking about evidence, as you seem to think that your own experiences are evidence. OK, my friends who have experienced past lives cite that as their evidence.

So for me, all these beliefs are similar, and I am equally skeptical about them

Your confirmation bias speaking there? [Razz]

quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I suppose Christians like to say that their evidence is that little bit extra special because the capo de tutti capi has vouchsafed them! You have to admire the chutzpah anyway.

I didn't say my particularly Christian mystical experience was extra special. I pointed out similar corollaries for evidence could be established in other traditions (as I mentioned above with Islam).

Oh look, more confirmation bias! [Razz]

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a theological scrapbook

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PaulTH*
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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
The doctrine of the atonement says very clearly that all mankind is at enmity with God as the default position - Jesus said we are condemned already ;

It's a good thing that modern scholarship is doing so much to challenge the tired old evengelical interpretations of Scripture. Jesus spoke in Aramaic. By the time the New Testament came to its present form it was in Greek, which was subsequently translated into most of the world's languages. Something is always lost in translation. If you read N T Wrights books, "The Resurrection of the Son of God" and "Surprised by Hope" you will see that what John calls eternal life is synonymous with what Matthew calls the kingdom of heaven, and they have nothing to do with what happens when we die.

John 17.3 reads, " And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.". So here, eternal life means to have an interactive relationship with the only true God and with Jesus Christ, his messenger. The same as being in the kingdom of heaven. An abundant life centred on a relationship with God. The use of the word eternal, or aionios in Greek means pertaining to the age, so eternal damnation could correctly be rendered as age-enduring correction. In Jesus' culture, there was the present age, and the age to come, so correction endures to the end of the present age.

A bg question also hangs over the use of the word belief, or pistis in Greek. It is much more closely related to faith or faithfulness, than it is to mental assent. So where Mudfrog would say that those who don't believe in Jesus go to eternal damnation, I take that to mean that those who don't faithfully obey His commandments go to a punishmnent whch shows them the error of their ways. True repentance with purposeful ammendent of life can, of course, remit the punishments due for sin. In Hebrews 5:8, we read;

"Although he was a Son, he learned obedience through what he suffered; 9 and being made perfect he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him."

To obey him! No mention of compulsive belief! Himself, he said, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments."(John 14:14) and "This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you." (John 15:12). So I simply don't agree that the overall message of Scripture is about believing in order to avoid eternal hell. It's about loving in order to do God's will, in the promise of the resurrection to a new cosmos freed from the decadence of corruption.

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Do you have to believe to be a Christian, or can you just act like one? Behaving as if you believe? Isn't this good enough? What about those who profess to believe buy refrain from acting like they do?

I would say unequivocally that someone who acts as a Christian even where their belief is lacking (eg Mother Theresa at times) is a much better Christian than a "believer" who does nothing. In the Parable of the Two Sons (Matt 21:28-32) Jesus makes it clear that the son who refused to help, but repented and did the job did the will of his father, while the son who offered to do the job but didn't, had not.

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Yours in Christ
Paul

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Mudfrog
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quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
The doctrine of the atonement says very clearly that all mankind is at enmity with God as the default position - Jesus said we are condemned already ;

It's a good thing that modern scholarship is doing so much to challenge the tired old evengelical interpretations of Scripture. Jesus spoke in Aramaic. By the time the New Testament came to its present form it was in Greek, which was subsequently translated into most of the world's languages. Something is always lost in translation. If you read N T Wrights books, "The Resurrection of the Son of God" and "Surprised by Hope" you will see that what John calls eternal life is synonymous with what Matthew calls the kingdom of heaven, and they have nothing to do with what happens when we die.

John 17.3 reads, " And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.". So here, eternal life means to have an interactive relationship with the only true God and with Jesus Christ, his messenger. The same as being in the kingdom of heaven. An abundant life centred on a relationship with God. The use of the word eternal, or aionios in Greek means pertaining to the age, so eternal damnation could correctly be rendered as age-enduring correction. In Jesus' culture, there was the present age, and the age to come, so correction endures to the end of the present age.

A bg question also hangs over the use of the word belief, or pistis in Greek. It is much more closely related to faith or faithfulness, than it is to mental assent. So where Mudfrog would say that those who don't believe in Jesus go to eternal damnation, I take that to mean that those who don't faithfully obey His commandments go to a punishmnent whch shows them the error of their ways. True repentance with purposeful ammendent of life can, of course, remit the punishments due for sin. In Hebrews 5:8, we read;

"Although he was a Son, he learned obedience through what he suffered; 9 and being made perfect he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him."

To obey him! No mention of compulsive belief! Himself, he said, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments."(John 14:14) and "This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you." (John 15:12). So I simply don't agree that the overall message of Scripture is about believing in order to avoid eternal hell. It's about loving in order to do God's will, in the promise of the resurrection to a new cosmos freed from the decadence of corruption.

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Do you have to believe to be a Christian, or can you just act like one? Behaving as if you believe? Isn't this good enough? What about those who profess to believe buy refrain from acting like they do?

I would say unequivocally that someone who acts as a Christian even where their belief is lacking (eg Mother Theresa at times) is a much better Christian than a "believer" who does nothing. In the Parable of the Two Sons (Matt 21:28-32) Jesus makes it clear that the son who refused to help, but repented and did the job did the will of his father, while the son who offered to do the job but didn't, had not.

Yes, I agree that there is so much more to the word 'eternal' than the concept of 'everlasting' as translated by those pesky evangelicals in the King James Bible of 1611 in John 3 v 16!!

Reading your post you are trying to demolish my argument through the use of scripture and up to date scholarship. It's ironic that you only appeal to the Bible and your new interpretation - a kind of liberal 'sola scriptura'.

What about Tradition - that which has always and everywhere been believed?
What about the teaching of the Church - orthodox, catholic and evangelical, for the last 2000 years?

Are you saying that the Church Universal is all wrong for teaching, as she does, that faith in Christ is necessary for salvation? Are you suggesting that Jesus himself had no concept of the afterlife to which he was calling people?
Are you saying that the Kingdom of God which has come near, is ended by death?

I appreciate what you say about the Kingdom of God being a present reality in this age. That is entirely evident from Scripture and from our own experience, but death does not destroy that - it is merely the gateway into the fullest experience of that Kingdom.
But the teaching of the New Testament is that we must believe the truth (which will set us free) as well as do the will of the Father in this world. Doing the will of God cannot be divorced from personal faith and trust in Christ as the Christ, the Saviour and his atoning work and shed blood on the cross.

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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

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Evensong
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Well you can have one without the other (orthodoxy vs orthopraxy) but they are a bit limp without each other.

Justification by faith/belief is just as bad as justification by works.

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Lamb Chopped
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quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
Jesus spoke in Aramaic. By the time the New Testament came to its present form it was in Greek, which was subsequently translated into most of the world's languages. Something is always lost in translation.



This is most certainly true. However...

we do not have the Aramaic,
we can only guess at it,
and the Holy Spirit has chosen (for whatever reasons!) to make Koine Greek the language of the New Testament. Disregarding that is IMHO a big mistake.

quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
John 17.3 reads, " And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.". So here, eternal life means to have an interactive relationship with the only true God and with Jesus Christ, his messenger. The same as being in the kingdom of heaven. An abundant life centred on a relationship with God.



I'm going to say "Whoa!" here. Not every faithful Christian experiences the "interactive relationship" you speak of, in this world at least. The emphasis on that seems to be a twentieth century fashion. Knowing God does indeed mean more than simple mental assent, but it doesn't always work itself out in touchy feely terms. A lot of people (especially historically) seem to have had this knowing God thing carried through the medium of the Christian church--through worship, liturgy, communion, service, etc.


quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
A big question also hangs over the use of the word belief, or pistis in Greek. It is much more closely related to faith or faithfulness, than it is to mental assent.



Both ideas are conveyed in it, and also the concept of reliance or trust. It's hard, probably impossible, to separate these ideas out from each other. In fact I wonder if premodern cultures ever routinely distinguished mental assent and the consequent actions of it. I suspect that for 99% of them, to assent was also to act. Though it would take a historian of ideas to prove it, I think. Our own routine distinction seems to me to be a symptom of a pretty unhealthy split in our modern mind/bodies.

quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
True repentance with purposeful amendment of life can, of course, remit the punishments due for sin.



No--Jesus does this, out of sheer grace and mercy.

quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
In Hebrews 5:8, we read;

"Although he was a Son, he learned obedience through what he suffered; 9 and being made perfect he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him."

To obey him! No mention of compulsive belief! Himself, he said, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments."(John 14:14) and "This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you." (John 15:12).



Not to devalue the passages you mention, but there's one even more closely related to the question of obedience and belief:

quote:
Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing pthe works of God?” Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent." (John 6:28-29)
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
I would say unequivocally that someone who acts as a Christian even where their belief is lacking (eg Mother Theresa at times) is a much better Christian than a "believer" who does nothing.



Agreed. Though your example makes my point beautifully. Based on her journals, Mother Theresa suffered from an absence of the sense of God for really long, long periods of time. Maybe I should call that "a sense of the absence of God." Either way, it's a terribly painful condition. But it is wholly consistent with the experience of the saints of all ages, and with that of Jesus himself. "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

Christian faith is probably at its purest under those conditions, where every emotional reward is withdrawn and the person continues faithful and faith-full. Lewis' Screwtape devil character describes this better than I ever could:

quote:
“Do not be deceived, Wormwood. Our cause is never more in danger than when a human, no longer desiring, but still intending, to do our Enemy's will, looks round upon a universe from which every trace of Him seems to have vanished, and asks why he has been forsaken, and still obeys.”


--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I think we began by talking about evidence, as you seem to think that your own experiences are evidence. OK, my friends who have experienced past lives cite that as their evidence.

So for me, all these beliefs are similar, and I am equally skeptical about them

Your confirmation bias speaking there? [Razz]

quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I suppose Christians like to say that their evidence is that little bit extra special because the capo de tutti capi has vouchsafed them! You have to admire the chutzpah anyway.

I didn't say my particularly Christian mystical experience was extra special. I pointed out similar corollaries for evidence could be established in other traditions (as I mentioned above with Islam).

Oh look, more confirmation bias! [Razz]

One thing that puzzles me about hell is that without it, Christianity makes no sense, does it? If Christ is the bulwark against it, but it's not there, then why do we need a bulwark?

Yet with hell, we seem to have a kind of celestial sadism, no?

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
One thing that puzzles me about hell is that without it, Christianity makes no sense, does it? If Christ is the bulwark against it, but it's not there, then why do we need a bulwark?

There is a hell, but it is empty. And it is empty because of Jesus.

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
One thing that puzzles me about hell is that without it, Christianity makes no sense, does it? If Christ is the bulwark against it, but it's not there, then why do we need a bulwark?

There is a hell, but it is empty. And it is empty because of Jesus.
How do you know this?

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
One thing that puzzles me about hell is that without it, Christianity makes no sense, does it? If Christ is the bulwark against it, but it's not there, then why do we need a bulwark?

There is a hell, but it is empty. And it is empty because of Jesus.
How do you know this?
Just my 2 cents-- my own unsubstantiated speculation cuz that's what we do here. But it is one way that Christianity can "make sense" w/o an inhabited hell. Whether it is the actual "way things work"-- well, we'll just have to wait and see, won't we?

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
One thing that puzzles me about hell is that without it, Christianity makes no sense, does it? If Christ is the bulwark against it, but it's not there, then why do we need a bulwark?

There is a hell, but it is empty. And it is empty because of Jesus.
How do you know this?
Just my 2 cents-- my own unsubstantiated speculation cuz that's what we do here. But it is one way that Christianity can "make sense" w/o an inhabited hell. Whether it is the actual "way things work"-- well, we'll just have to wait and see, won't we?
That's fair enough, although it's a bit like inventing a problem for a solution, isn't it? Oh well, most of religion is like that, I guess. The Buddha says that he has found a solution for suffering, but that presupposes that suffering is a problem. So it goes.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
One thing that puzzles me about hell is that without it, Christianity makes no sense, does it? If Christ is the bulwark against it, but it's not there, then why do we need a bulwark?

There is a hell, but it is empty. And it is empty because of Jesus.
How do you know this?
Just my 2 cents-- my own unsubstantiated speculation cuz that's what we do here. But it is one way that Christianity can "make sense" w/o an inhabited hell. Whether it is the actual "way things work"-- well, we'll just have to wait and see, won't we?
That's fair enough, although it's a bit like inventing a problem for a solution, isn't it? Oh well, most of religion is like that, I guess. The Buddha says that he has found a solution for suffering, but that presupposes that suffering is a problem. So it goes.
um.... you were the one who "invented the problem", right? I was simply answering your question with my humble opinion.

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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cliffdweller
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perhaps my mistake was in assuming your question was serious, and not snarky...

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Freddy
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
One thing that puzzles me about hell is that without it, Christianity makes no sense, does it? If Christ is the bulwark against it, but it's not there, then why do we need a bulwark?

Great point!

It would be like taking precautions against financial ruin if the risk was actually negligible or nonexistent.

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
One thing that puzzles me about hell is that without it, Christianity makes no sense, does it? If Christ is the bulwark against it, but it's not there, then why do we need a bulwark?

Great point!

It would be like taking precautions against financial ruin if the risk was actually negligible or nonexistent.

Only if the "precautions" are something unpleasant or undesirable. When it comes to financial ruin then definitely there is a cost to the precautions you take-- the $$ socked away in your 401K is $$ you can't spend on a trip to Tahiti. But with Christianity, we believe the life in Christ is the best possible life you could have-- the life of the Kingdom, the abundant life as others have noted. So it's not at all about "taking precautions". It's about experiencing in the here and now a foretaste of the wonderful banquet to come.

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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South Coast Kevin
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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
But with Christianity, we believe the life in Christ is the best possible life you could have-- the life of the Kingdom, the abundant life as others have noted. So it's not at all about "taking precautions". It's about experiencing in the here and now a foretaste of the wonderful banquet to come.

Absolutely. The 'taking precautions' analogy is only at all valid if Christianity is merely the promise of a ticket to heaven for when you die. My Bible talks about rather more than that...

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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.

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PaulTH*
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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Are you saying that the Church Universal is all wrong for teaching, as she does, that faith in Christ is necessary for salvation? Are you suggesting that Jesus himself had no concept of the afterlife to which he was calling people? Are you saying that the Kingdom of God which has come near, is ended by death?

I'm not saying any of those things. Though Jesus, having taken on the limitations of a human brain, was culturally conditioned, I'm sure His awareness of His Father was enough to inform Him of the reality of the afterlife, and that the kingdom doesn't end with death. But in both this world and the next, the reality of the kingdom is living the moment in God's presence, which can also be described as eternal life. As for the Church's teaching on faith:

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Though your example makes my point beautifully. Based on her journals, Mother Theresa suffered from an absence of the sense of God for really long, long periods of time. Maybe I should call that "a sense of the absence of God." Either way, it's a terribly painful condition. But it is wholly consistent with the experience of the saints of all ages, and with that of Jesus himself. "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

It also makes my point beautifully. I don't say there's no overlap between faith and belief, but Christianity has taught for so long that believeing in Jesus is the key to salvation, and IMO, it misses the point. I am familiar enough with the writings of the Christian mystics to know that the dark night of the soul is part of growing in faith. Those are the times when belief is at its weakest.

The salvific faith is to do as Mother Theresa did during those spiritually dry periods, which was to get on with her work of helping the poor. Faith is to persist in the face of all adversity, which for many in history has involved persecution. For others it involves long spiritual nights of dry doubt. Maintaining Christian integrity in all those situations is what makes saints.

--------------------
Yours in Christ
Paul

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
perhaps my mistake was in assuming your question was serious, and not snarky...

I wasn't being snarky at all. I see a lot of Christian views as trying to work out what the problem is, for which Christ is the solution.

This seems back to front to me. I can see that you have found a solution - but to what?

I suppose hell is a very obvious problem, but then if some Christians play down hell, or even don't believe in it, then what problem or problems are they left with? Well, there are an infinite number of things which we can see as problems of course.

But one solution is not to see them as a problem, isn't it?

--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Martin60
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THE problem is us doing NOTHING about the hell in front of our eyes.

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Love wins

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Freddy
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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
But with Christianity, we believe the life in Christ is the best possible life you could have-- the life of the Kingdom, the abundant life as others have noted. So it's not at all about "taking precautions". It's about experiencing in the here and now a foretaste of the wonderful banquet to come.

Excellent point. It's a win-win.

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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Freddy
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quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Absolutely. The 'taking precautions' analogy is only at all valid if Christianity is merely the promise of a ticket to heaven for when you die. My Bible talks about rather more than that...

That is so right.

The point is not about facing the pain of hell in the future. The point is that following Jesus takes away the pain now - and also forever.

It's really about the pursuit of happiness. What is happiness? It is what happens if we obey Jesus.

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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Lamb Chopped
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quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
The salvific faith is to do as Mother Theresa did during those spiritually dry periods, which was to get on with her work of helping the poor. Faith is to persist in the face of all adversity, which for many in history has involved persecution. For others it involves long spiritual nights of dry doubt. Maintaining Christian integrity in all those situations is what makes saints.

If you place the emphasis on "continue," then we may be saying the same thing. I call that kind of endurance, whether shown in action or in simple refusal to give up, faith; you appear to see it through the lens of works. And to be sure, faith always expresses itself in works, and cannot be without works, and as Luther put it,

“Faith is a divine work in us. It changes us and makes us to be born anew of God (John 1). It kills the old Adam and makes altogether different people, in heart and spirit and mind and powers, and it brings with it the Holy Spirit.

Oh, it is a living, busy, active, mighty thing, this faith. And so it is impossible for it not to do good works incessantly. It does not ask whether there are good works to do, but before the question rises, it has already done them, and is always at the doing of them.

He who does not these works is a faithless man. He gropes and looks about after faith and good works and knows neither what faith is nor what good works are, though he talks and talks, with many words about faith and good works.

Faith is a living, daring confidence in God’s grace, so sure and certain that a man would stake his life on it a thousand times. This confidence in God’s grace and knowledge of it makes men glad and bold and happy in dealing with God and all His creatures.

And this is the work of the Holy Spirit in faith. Hence a man is ready and glad, without compulsion, to do good to everyone, to serve everyone, to suffer everything, in love and praise to God, who has shown him this grace.

And thus it is impossible to separate works from faith, quite as impossible as to separate burning and shining from fire. ...

Therefore, pray to God to work faith in you. Else you will remain forever without faith, whatever you think or do.”

–Martin Luther, Commentary on Romans, Trans. J. Theodore Mueller (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1954), xvii.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Absolutely. The 'taking precautions' analogy is only at all valid if Christianity is merely the promise of a ticket to heaven for when you die. My Bible talks about rather more than that...

That is so right.

The point is not about facing the pain of hell in the future. The point is that following Jesus takes away the pain now - and also forever.

It's really about the pursuit of happiness. What is happiness? It is what happens if we obey Jesus.

But I am happy. Are you saying that I should be happier?

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
perhaps my mistake was in assuming your question was serious, and not snarky...

I wasn't being snarky at all. I see a lot of Christian views as trying to work out what the problem is, for which Christ is the solution.

This seems back to front to me. I can see that you have found a solution - but to what?

I suppose hell is a very obvious problem, but then if some Christians play down hell, or even don't believe in it, then what problem or problems are they left with? Well, there are an infinite number of things which we can see as problems of course.

But one solution is not to see them as a problem, isn't it?

But again, YOU were the one who raised it as a problem. YOU were the one who said you were "puzzled" by the fact that "Christianity doesn't work without hell". I was merely answering a question YOU asked, naively taking you at your word. So yes, I would conclude that YOU invented a problem to set up your snarky little response.


quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
.
I suppose hell is a very obvious problem, but then if some Christians play down hell, or even don't believe in it, then what problem or problems are they left with? Well, there are an infinite number of things which we can see as problems of course.

But one solution is not to see them as a problem, isn't it?

Which is precisely what I said. But that didn't allow room for your clever little quip about Christians having a "solution seeking a problem".

[ 21. June 2014, 05:36: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Absolutely. The 'taking precautions' analogy is only at all valid if Christianity is merely the promise of a ticket to heaven for when you die. My Bible talks about rather more than that...

That is so right.

The point is not about facing the pain of hell in the future. The point is that following Jesus takes away the pain now - and also forever.

It's really about the pursuit of happiness. What is happiness? It is what happens if we obey Jesus.

But I am happy. Are you saying that I should be happier?
*shrug* Why do you ask? For what purpose?

This tangent came, again, from your baiting question, in which you suggested that if there is no threat of hell, then our "precautions" would be wasted, as if following Jesus was some onerous burden reluctantly endured for some future benefit, like having to eat cauliflower or jogging. But we are suggesting that, quite the contrary, we experience the act of following Jesus itself as the reward, quite separate from whether or not there is some threat of hell behind it.

All we can do is share our experience-- which is based in the belief that Jesus calls us to a life that is better in an way utterly distinct from every other life. Whether that experience speaks to you and your own life is entirely up to you.

[ 21. June 2014, 05:42: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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quetzalcoatl
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cliffdweller

I don't really know why you call my questions 'baiting'. I think it's a fair question to ask of any religion - what is the problem, to which you proffer the solution? I ask it of everybody I meet who is religious, even the local shaman. People's replies vary from the profound to the idiotic, as one might expect.

I think your point about 'the act of following Jesus is the reward' is a good one, and it makes sense to me. It seems like a kind of existential view of religion, that the practice of it is itself satisfying. Well, I like that.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Martin60
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EXACTLY! It's its own reward. We need NO OTHER.

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Love wins

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Moo

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Here are two lines from a favorite hymn.

For thou art our salvation, Lord,
Our refuge, and our great reward.


Moo

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See you later, alligator.

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Martin60
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I sit corrected: it IS He Moo, yes.

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Love wins

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
cliffdweller

I don't really know why you call my questions 'baiting'. I think it's a fair question to ask of any religion - what is the problem, to which you proffer the solution?.

THAT would be a fair-- and interesting-- question... if that's what you had done. But it isn't. Instead, you asked a different question (how does Christianity "work" with a hell) and then when I answered it, you pulled a bait & switch and asked "why do you have a solution seeking a problem", as if I had brought in a defensive answer out of the clear blue sky, rather than responding directly to your question. Which seems to be indicating that the original question was not a real question, but simply a set up for your snarky response. fwiw, I hate that.
[Mad]

But I'm glad you liked at least part of my "answer seeking a problem" anyway. I'll leave it to that before we get hellish.

[ 21. June 2014, 13:31: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
cliffdweller

I don't really know why you call my questions 'baiting'. I think it's a fair question to ask of any religion - what is the problem, to which you proffer the solution?.

THAT would be a fair-- and interesting-- question... if that's what you had done. But it isn't. Instead, you asked a different question (how does Christianity "work" with a hell) and then when I answered it, you pulled a bait & switch and asked "why do you have a solution seeking a problem", as if I had brought in a defensive answer out of the clear blue sky, rather than responding directly to your question. Which seems to be indicating that the original question was not a real question, but simply a set up for your snarky response. fwiw, I hate that.
[Mad]

But I'm glad you liked at least part of my "answer seeking a problem" anyway. I'll leave it to that before we get hellish.

Well, the original question about hell was directed at Evensong, as we had been having an interesting discussion about various things, such as confirmation bias. So I wondered what her views were about hell, and how a Christianity without hell works. It's fine that you answered it, but I can assure you I was not doing a bait and switch at all. Rather sad that you should feel that; anyway, it's probably better if I discuss this with others.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Mudfrog
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quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
Here are two lines from a favorite hymn.

For thou art our salvation, Lord,
Our refuge, and our great reward.


Moo

I don't like the idea that heaven is a 'reward' - that might suggest to some that we get heaven as a reward for doing something, like we've earned it. In actual fact there is nothing we can do that would merit such a reward, given as it is entirely by grace.

I believe we are rewarded for our faithfulness and our good works in heaven - symbolised by crowns, etc - but we are not rewarded with heaven, as if it were some prize!

I believe that the greatest attraction of heaven is simply to be with Jesus.

[ 21. June 2014, 15:28: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]

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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

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Freddy
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
But I am happy. Are you saying that I should be happier?

There is no "should" about it. Happiness is relative anyway. I'm thinking that everyone seeks happiness, or seeks to maintain the happiness they have.

--------------------
"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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Moo

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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
Here are two lines from a favorite hymn.

For thou art our salvation, Lord,
Our refuge, and our great reward.


Moo

I don't like the idea that heaven is a 'reward' - that might suggest to some that we get heaven as a reward for doing something, like we've earned it. In actual fact there is nothing we can do that would merit such a reward, given as it is entirely by grace.
I agree completely. My point is that Jesus is our salvation, our refuge, and our great reward in this life.

Moo

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See you later, alligator.

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Mudfrog
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quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
Here are two lines from a favorite hymn.

For thou art our salvation, Lord,
Our refuge, and our great reward.


Moo

I don't like the idea that heaven is a 'reward' - that might suggest to some that we get heaven as a reward for doing something, like we've earned it. In actual fact there is nothing we can do that would merit such a reward, given as it is entirely by grace.
I agree completely. My point is that Jesus is our salvation, our refuge, and our great reward in this life.

Moo

...in this life, which never ends.

--------------------
"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

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Martin60
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Indeed. We have eternal life NOW.

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Love wins

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Mudfrog
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Indeed. We have eternal life NOW.

Yes. We are born again. A new creation. In the kingdom. We have life.

[Yipee]

--------------------
"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Well, the original question about hell was directed at Evensong, as we had been having an interesting discussion about various things, such as confirmation bias. So I wondered what her views were about hell, and how a Christianity without hell works. It's fine that you answered it, but I can assure you I was not doing a bait and switch at all. Rather sad that you should feel that; anyway, it's probably better if I discuss this with others.

hmmmmm.... well, certainly sorry to have intruded on your conversation. The fact that you quoted my comment above your response was what made me think you were responding to my comment.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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ChastMastr
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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Life is no fun ride, and whoever created this place was not designing it to the standards of equity, fairness and appropriate behaviour as discussed at the latest meeting of the union of kindergarden teachers. So why would you think that ultimate salvation is for the funsies? Get a bloody grip.

(raises hand, and speaks in a small quiet voice)

Um, didn't Jesus tell us to be like little children, for such is the kingdom of Heaven?

I'll go now...

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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

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Martin60
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Wherever you're condemned to by IngoB's God for that, can I come too?

[ 20. July 2014, 15:19: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]

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Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
THE problem is us doing NOTHING about the hell in front of our eyes.

This of course is the elephant in the room, the emperor with no clothes and about the most egregious and terrible thing about many Christians. You're not supposed to mention such things. Leave the apple cart upright dear Martin! Let us attend church to fertilise the garden of our lives and our afterlives, stepping on and over homeless people on the way, whilst our governments spend more money on bombs and support industry's the destruction of the natural world. Let us warm the planet up, making it hell for ourselves, and all the creatures and plants living on it. This is our holy mission!

Oh, time to soak my head.

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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

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ChastMastr
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Wherever you're condemned to by IngoB's God for that, can I come too?

[Hot and Hormonal] [Axe murder]

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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
The salvific faith is to do as Mother Theresa did during those spiritually dry periods, which was to get on with her work of helping the poor. Faith is to persist in the face of all adversity, which for many in history has involved persecution. For others it involves long spiritual nights of dry doubt. Maintaining Christian integrity in all those situations is what makes saints.

If you place the emphasis on "continue," then we may be saying the same thing. I call that kind of endurance, whether shown in action or in simple refusal to give up, faith; you appear to see it through the lens of works. And to be sure, faith always expresses itself in works, and cannot be without works, and as Luther put it,

“Faith is a divine work in us. It changes us and makes us to be born anew of God (John 1). It kills the old Adam and makes altogether different people, in heart and spirit and mind and powers, and it brings with it the Holy Spirit.

Oh, it is a living, busy, active, mighty thing, this faith. And so it is impossible for it not to do good works incessantly. It does not ask whether there are good works to do, but before the question rises, it has already done them, and is always at the doing of them.

He who does not these works is a faithless man. He gropes and looks about after faith and good works and knows neither what faith is nor what good works are, though he talks and talks, with many words about faith and good works.

Faith is a living, daring confidence in God’s grace, so sure and certain that a man would stake his life on it a thousand times. This confidence in God’s grace and knowledge of it makes men glad and bold and happy in dealing with God and all His creatures.

And this is the work of the Holy Spirit in faith. Hence a man is ready and glad, without compulsion, to do good to everyone, to serve everyone, to suffer everything, in love and praise to God, who has shown him this grace.

And thus it is impossible to separate works from faith, quite as impossible as to separate burning and shining from fire. ...

Therefore, pray to God to work faith in you. Else you will remain forever without faith, whatever you think or do.”

–Martin Luther, Commentary on Romans, Trans. J. Theodore Mueller (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1954), xvii.

I think Martin Luther would have to assume I'm doomed to the Divine Barbecue, going by the bit I've italicised. I think faith as described there is given to very few.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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ChastMastr
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Karl, mightn't he mean that God’s grace is "so sure and certain that a man would stake his life on it a thousand times"?

Take heart! [Axe murder]

--------------------
My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
Karl, mightn't he mean that God’s grace is "so sure and certain that a man would stake his life on it a thousand times"?

Take heart! [Axe murder]

It might. I don't think it does. The subject of the sentence appears to be "confidence". Either way, I can see no life staking on it in my department.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Lamb Chopped
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Luther (like most authors) uses hyperbole. He's meaning to underline the dependability of God's grace, not the awesomeness of some particular human being's faith. If you asked him if this passage was meant to praise someone's faith, you'd hear the snorting all the way from Wittenberg.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Mere Nick
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I started this thread and have come back to find close to three hundred replies. Dude, where to begin?

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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell

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Evensong
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# 14696

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I'm preaching on Hell in a few days. One of you (was it you Mere Nick?) provided me with a journal article from the Journal of Evangelical Theological Society titled "The Final End of the Wicked" by Edward Fudge which was quite helpful. Essentially argued for annihilation as the end of the wicked - not eternal torture of punishment.

PM me if anyone's interested and I can email it to you.

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a theological scrapbook

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South Coast Kevin
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It's available online here - I'll have a read later!

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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.

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