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Source: (consider it) Thread: The Fifth Marian Dogma?
South Coast Kevin
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quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Some of the imagery certainly does have theological implications, but the real power of it is as a vehicle for, and expression of, pure veneration.

Hmm, I'd be rather more wary than this about the theological implications. If we're using a litany, or a song, or anything really, and it has theological content which we don't actually agree with, I think that's a problem; surely we're bound to absorb the content to some extent.

In my church tradition, this issue mainly expresses itself through theologically dubious songs, but that's another topic entirely...

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Frankenstein
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quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
quote:
Originally posted by Frankenstein:
There is a Catholic (RC) Marian Litany which can be found on line. An example (I quote):
Vessel of honor,
pray for us.
Singular vessel of devotion,
pray for us.
Mystical rose,
pray for us.
Tower of David,
pray for us.
Tower of ivory,
pray for us.
House of gold,
pray for us.
Ark of the Covenant,
pray for us.
Gate of Heaven,
pray for us.
Morning star,
pray for us.
Health of the sick,
pray for us.
All romantic imagery and worthless (theologically speaking).
What is one to make of it?

I used to pray this litany silently as a devotion at Mass frequently (and I'm not RC; rather, Anglican). IMO the imagery allows one to enter into the devotional, meditative spirit of this prayer, focussing one's devotion on the BVM. It's effect is quasi-hypnotic (for me anyway). Some of the imagery certainly does have theological implications, but the real power of it is as a vehicle for, and expression of, pure veneration.
Well said.
My sentiments entirely.

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Forthview
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Frankenstiein - earlier on you classified the Litany of Loreto as 'worthless'. Now you agree with LSK that it can be 'devotional'.

It is of course poetic imagery , 'Tower of Ivory' coming from the Canticle of Canticles in the Old Testament.

In the olden days ,which you may remember, the Litany of Loreto would be recited publicly in church during May and October.I haven't heard it in a long,long time. I doubt if many young Catholics would know it,much as they probably wouldn't know many flowery Victorian hymns.

No Catholic is obliged to pray or even to express appreciation of the Litany of Loreto.

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seekingsister
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quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
In the olden days ,which you may remember, the Litany of Loreto would be recited publicly in church during May and October.I haven't heard it in a long,long time. I doubt if many young Catholics would know it,much as they probably wouldn't know many flowery Victorian hymns.

No Catholic is obliged to pray or even to express appreciation of the Litany of Loreto.

I heard it last month - May obviously - in my first attendance of an RC mass. I found it uncomfortable at best.

I take your word that Catholics are not obliged but it lasted nearly 10 minutes and involved a corporate response. I didn't see anyone who wasn't at least kneeling throughout.

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Forthview
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Kneeling can be a sign of devotion.
It need not have been enforced upon unwilling subservient slaves.

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Gamaliel
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I've attended RC Exposition/Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament and that made me feel jolly uncomfortable too ... but strangely moving at one and the same time.

I didn't know how to handle it, to be honest. It reminded me a bit of that scary thing in Lord of the Rings - The Eye of Sauron ... not that it was buzzing or emitting scary rays or anything ...

I felt a mix of embarrassment, concern and the kind of fellow-feeling you get when you are around people of genuine faith and devotion.

Oddly enough, I don't feel quite so hot-under-the-collar when the Orthodox venerate the consecrated gifts ... but then they partake of them rather than mounting them in a monstrance for people to admire ...

Intellectually, I can grasp what the practice is about but it still sits uncomfortably with me.

At the same time, I think I'd find the Loreto thing rather uncomfortable but I don't feel quite so uncomfortable about the Orthodox chant 'Rejoice Bride Unwedded'.

Here's a Russian version but you can find versions in English online.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6EurgsdeF8

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Gamaliel
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You can scroll down this Wiki page to find an English translation.

I find it a very beautiful and moving hymn.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agni_Parthene

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

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Gamaliel
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Apologies for the serial posting - but I think Seeking Sister isn't concerned that the RCs were being 'forced' to kneel, rather it was that they were kneeling in the first place as this would be a posture she would consider appropriate only for Christ rather than for Mary or the Saints.

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Forthview
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When I go to'happy,clappy' worship,I feel uncomfortable when people ,whom I consider to be rational beings,raise their hands or arms in the air and mutter things like 'Praise the Lord' or 'speak in tongues'.

At the same time I realise that it is just a style of worship which I am not used to.It is an everyday part of worship to these brothers and sisters in Christ and then I accept it as that.

I like the poetry and the corporate veneration of the Blessed Virgin and am happy to honour her with these words of praise from the Litany of Loreto,though I have never heard it recited during a Mass.

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Forthview
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Why is it that some Anglicans would not want to kneel when saying prayers to the Queen of Heaven but are happy to bend the knee before the Queen of England ?
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Caissa
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Well because she is the Head of the Church. [Biased]
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Frankenstein
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quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
Frankenstiein - earlier on you classified the Litany of Loreto as 'worthless'. Now you agree with LSK that it can be 'devotional'.

It is of course poetic imagery , 'Tower of Ivory' coming from the Canticle of Canticles in the Old Testament.

In the olden days ,which you may remember, the Litany of Loreto would be recited publicly in church during May and October.I haven't heard it in a long,long time. I doubt if many young Catholics would know it,much as they probably wouldn't know many flowery Victorian hymns.

No Catholic is obliged to pray or even to express appreciation of the Litany of Loreto.

I see that the word 'worthless' is causing a problem. I differentiate between devotional sentiments and articles of faith. 'Star of the sea' is a pretty phrase, devotional, if you must, but to me, nothing else. (Regardless of its derivation)
The Litanies seem to have gone out of fashion since Vatican 2. No Catholic is obliged to attend any act of devotion other than the Mass. 'Benediction', the stations of the Cross and the Divine Office are other such devotions.

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Gwai
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quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
Why is it that some Anglicans would not want to kneel when saying prayers to the Queen of Heaven but are happy to bend the knee before the Queen of England ?

She's not my queen, but it makes perfect sense to me to make a show of physical respect that is real but is much less than prayer.

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seekingsister
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quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
Kneeling can be a sign of devotion.
It need not have been enforced upon unwilling subservient slaves.

I don't think they were forced into it, apologies.
I only mentioned the fact that everyone was kneeling and nearly everyone was participating in the corporate response "Pray for us" to point out that while it may not be an obligation, in that particular congregation the vast majority fully participated in the veneration.

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seekingsister
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quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
When I go to'happy,clappy' worship,I feel uncomfortable when people ,whom I consider to be rational beings,raise their hands or arms in the air and mutter things like 'Praise the Lord' or 'speak in tongues'.

At the same RC mass where I heard the litany there was a portion of the service where we all had to hold hands with our neighbors and then raise them into the air while singing. (Anyone know what this is by the way?)

Is it that different?

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Frankenstein
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quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
When I go to'happy,clappy' worship,I feel uncomfortable when people ,whom I consider to be rational beings,raise their hands or arms in the air and mutter things like 'Praise the Lord' or 'speak in tongues'.

At the same RC mass where I heard the litany there was a portion of the service where we all had to hold hands with our neighbors and then raise them into the air while singing. (Anyone know what this is by the way?)

Is it that different?

The saying of the Litany is not an integral part of the Mass. A Catholic might opt out of the Litany and still have 'heard' Mass.

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Chesterbelloc

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quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
At the same RC mass where I heard the litany there was a portion of the service where we all had to hold hands with our neighbors and then raise them into the air while singing. (Anyone know what this is by the way?)

An abomination.

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Frankenstein
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quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
At the same RC mass where I heard the litany there was a portion of the service where we all had to hold hands with our neighbors and then raise them into the air while singing. (Anyone know what this is by the way?)

An abomination.
A sop to the charismatic brigade, as well as being an abomination. I find 'happy clappy' nauseating.
Some people love it!

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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
At the same RC mass where I heard the litany there was a portion of the service where we all had to hold hands with our neighbors and then raise them into the air while singing. (Anyone know what this is by the way?)

An abomination.
Indeed! In the US, the Charismatic Movement managed to invade many RC parishes with the practice of holding hands during the Our Father. Worse yet: Episcopalians taking liturgical cues from Rome, the abominable practice has invaded a percentage of MOTR TEC parishes.
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Frankenstein
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quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
At the same RC mass where I heard the litany there was a portion of the service where we all had to hold hands with our neighbors and then raise them into the air while singing. (Anyone know what this is by the way?)

An abomination.
Indeed! In the US, the Charismatic Movement managed to invade many RC parishes with the practice of holding hands during the Our Father. Worse yet: Episcopalians taking liturgical cues from Rome, the abominable practice has invaded a percentage of MOTR TEC parishes.
We come together to worship God.
We should demonstrate that we are a community and not just individuals at prayer.
This started in RC circles, with the kiss of peace.
We Anglo Saxons are so undemonstrative. In Latin countries a show of warm fraternity come easier.

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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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In Lithuania most Catholics just nod to one another st the Peace, and say "Ramybes" (peace) -- no touching, heaven forbid.
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Stetson
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quote:
Originally posted by Frankenstein:
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
At the same RC mass where I heard the litany there was a portion of the service where we all had to hold hands with our neighbors and then raise them into the air while singing. (Anyone know what this is by the way?)

An abomination.
Indeed! In the US, the Charismatic Movement managed to invade many RC parishes with the practice of holding hands during the Our Father. Worse yet: Episcopalians taking liturgical cues from Rome, the abominable practice has invaded a percentage of MOTR TEC parishes.
We come together to worship God.
We should demonstrate that we are a community and not just individuals at prayer.
This started in RC circles, with the kiss of peace.
We Anglo Saxons are so undemonstrative. In Latin countries a show of warm fraternity come easier.

Given that Catholics and Episcopalians are generally more willing than many other denominations to share saliva during the Eucharist, it is interesting that they evince(at least on this board) such hostility to other displays of phycial intimacy during worship.

Not that I don't understand the hostility myself. Not a huge fan of the emotionally demonstrative "happy-clappy" stuff, though I suppose I could appreciate it more in its "native setting".

[ 13. June 2014, 20:14: Message edited by: Stetson ]

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Forthview
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The custom of holding hands together during the 'Our Father' I first came across with German Lutherans many years ago.I don't know just how widespread it was,but I certainly saw it many times.
Wherever possible German Lutherans will stand in a circle round the altar to receive Communion and hold hands at the beginning,when they take their places round the altar.

It's not always possible depending on the layout of the sanctuary.

This custom was then taken up amongst some Catholics,holding hands during the recitation of the Lord's prayer and raising them high at the end of the prayer.

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Forthview
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When I say that I feel uncomfortable when I am with 'happy-clappy' Christians who raise one hand in the air and mutter sometimes incomprehensible phrases,I don't mean to say that I think this is necessarily wrong.These are simply acts of devotion which are quite normal to some Christians,but can be just as strange to some other Christians to whom the Sign of the Cross and even the recitation of the Litany of Loreto are commonplace.

We are used to what we are used to.We sometimes use incorrect language when describing what we are used to.

I'm not sure if Caissa was tongue in cheek or serious when (s)he said ' The Queen is the Head of the Church.' Jesus is the Head of the Church.
The Queen of England is the Supreme Governor of the Church of England.

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South Coast Kevin
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Goodness me, several folks upthread, don't you think 'abomination' is a rather strong word for worship practices you don't like? Think of a worship practice you consider to be very important or even vital as part of how we should praise God and show him our devotion. How would you feel if someone said such a practice was an 'abomination'?

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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quote:

So as far as God's graces come to us as "motherly care", I think we can imagine them coming "mediated by Mary" somehow. Not because Jesus is deficient. But rather because Jesus is fully human, and male, and hence attains a "motherly perspective" not in Himself but by relationship to women, and as a single, in particular by His relationship to His mother.

Holy Spirit. Father, Son, Mother. Never understood how Mary needed to be elevated like this. Except that mom is okay but wife or opposite sex partner is unpalatable to sexless or attempted sexless clergy.

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Martin60
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SCK, Chesterbelloc is joking you know.

We're all confessing our weaknesses, our prejudices, our enculturation here after all.

Post Roman minimalists do not and cannot understand Marianism at all although I FULLY understand the need for God to have maternal, sororal, filial attributes, to be related to in these personae. That's not something I've explored and don't feel the need and therefore may be I SHOULD.

Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras and Gamaliel are way ahead of me in exploring the uncomfortable, the radical in Roman and Greek worship. Although I must confess I went as a tourist in my wilderness years to see the Roman remains at St. Pancras whilst on business nearby and stayed and worshipped not just comfortably, in that I could reconcile it, make it work, but with a frisson of wonder in a full Marian service ...

In Triangle we've often, but not recently as our format has changed, stood in a circle, held hands and shared a blessing. Perfect equality.

That was inspired by Forthview's comments among others: last night I was struggling to respond to your comment about bowing the knee to Her Majesty but not to the Queen of Heaven. Hence my three paragraphs up. Feeling my way in reconciliation. Mary in The Pietà needs no elevation. I cannot let anyone else have faith for me in any regard that I don't 'see'. I don't, can't possibly see Mary in Roman or Greek dogmatic terms. Those outer concentric circles, beyond those of the gospels, Acts, epistles, the TaNaKh: the apocrypha, traditions, cultures, generations, centuries, millennia which surround, perichoretically suffuse, gave birth to and from the inner canonical circles have no authoritative weight for me and can't.

I was having to defend a creationist against a theistic evolutionist, having been both and now a full on evolutionist with the three vitalist caveats. I feel all of that weight. The authority is in not judging in matters of meat and drink, in vain disputations, argument.

Yet and so here I am. Wanting to reach out, as I do to all my children alienated from each other but demonstrably less so from me. A prodigal father, child and brother (for which I thank Father Henri Nouwen).

I CANNOT be Marian in any placist dogmatic regard. Neither can I be rabidly fundamentalist, a narrow, distorted 'Puritan'. Circles that I have left and want no part of, no echo of in myself. Despite their veiled presence in the beginning of this paragraph. A 3D animation of these circles in time would be a great creative challenge, De Kooning meets Kandinsky by Disney.

And now on the cusp of 60, with no capacity for change, I've been kicked in to a vast postmodern orbit, the outermost circle in dogmatic terms, not far to go to outer darkness [Smile] , where Thomas Merton and life make me nod and see God Zenning back. And I feel the need more than just nod at St. Ignatius of Loyola.

So, what is such a person to do? I am utterly incapable of receiving what I have no receptors, receivers, receptacle for. Whilst having them for much that is shared with Rome and Greece.

Can I stand in your circles and hold hands? You with Mary, me without? You with the actual body and blood of Jesus and me without?

Is there anywhere I can actually go and do that?

[ 14. June 2014, 10:20: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]

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Chesterbelloc

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[x-p'd with Martin]
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Goodness me, several folks upthread, don't you think 'abomination' is a rather strong word for worship practices you don't like? Think of a worship practice you consider to be very important or even vital as part of how we should praise God and show him our devotion. How would you feel if someone said such a practice was an 'abomination'?

SCK, since I brought the word up, I should probably say that my tongue was somewhat in my cheek - exaggerating for "comic" effect. On a serious note, the practice described is not one which is terribly conducive to the spirit of the Sacrifice of the Altar which the Church encourages us to inculcate. That is all.

[ 14. June 2014, 10:26: Message edited by: Chesterbelloc ]

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EtymologicalEvangelical
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quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
At the same RC mass where I heard the litany there was a portion of the service where we all had to hold hands with our neighbors and then raise them into the air while singing. (Anyone know what this is by the way?)

An abomination.
If "we all had to hold hands with our neighbors" then it was an abomination (no tongue in cheek).

Holding hands is not an abomination, of course.

Having to hold hands most definitely is.

There is not supposed to be any compulsion in religion (so says the Quran. Ooops! Wrong religion. But you get the point... [Snigger] )

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Forthview
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Martin - I don't understand half of your vocabulary but you should always be welcome to go into any Catholic church and simply pray with others who may be there.

You don't have to hold hands literally with the other people,but you can be 100% sure that the Good Lord will welcome you.His Catholic servants may or may not welcome you with open arms -they are not always just as perfect as the Lord.

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