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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Spiritual attacks???
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Siegfried
Ship's ferret
# 29
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Squirrel:
Our pal Jack Chick has a particularly hilarious tract about what could be called a Spiritual Attack. A teenager shoots himself. His parents are into masonry. A wise neighbor convinces them that the kid did it because they brought "witchcraft" into their home. They burn Dad's Shriner fez and of course the kid recovers.
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1074/1074_01.asp
Nice oops there--in order to become a Shriner you have to already be a high ranked Mason (at least until 2000). Oh Jack... the gift that keeps giving.
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Siegfried
Life is just a bowl of cherries!
Posts: 5592 | From: Tallahassee, FL USA | Registered: May 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
I'm not a 'demons under every stone' kind of person but we mustn't just dismiss what scripture says:
Job was allowed to be subjected to 'attack'.
Jesus himself was tempted - 'put under pressure', if you like - by the devil.
The NT tells us that the Devil roams around like a roaring lion seeking those he can devour.
We're told to put on the whole armour of God so that we can stand defensively.
Paul tells us that our fight is not with flesh and blood but against principalities and powers, etc.
Of course we shouldn't be obsessed with them but there is nothing wrong in being aware that whereas the difficulties we face are from the world - our environment, other people, etc - the flesh - our own mental state, emotions and health - there will be times when something 'spiritual' may be influencing us negatively.
Know your enemy, I say!
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Caissa
Shipmate
# 16710
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Posted
Job is a piece of myth.
Posts: 972 | From: Saint John, N.B. | Registered: Oct 2011
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
Job is a piece of myth.
Though not disputing the assertion, can you please define precisely what you mean by 'myth'? It's one of those tricky words that lots of people can take to mean different things. I'd just like to check that my understanding is in accordance with your intention (and for the benefit of everyone else here).
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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
Posts: 3791 | From: On the corporate ladder | Registered: Jan 2012
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
The territorial spirit theology is largely based on one verse in Daniel, after all.
I think a more realistic place to start with regard to territorial spirits is 2 Cor 10:4-5 where Paul talks of demolishing strongholds, arguments and pretensions.
Inasmuch as I have a work of reference on this subject it is not some weighty doorstop tome from Wagner or the like but a 60-page booklet called Principalities and Powers by Tom Marshall, a name some of you may remember.
In it he mentions how it is common even in secular language to refer to the 'spirit' of an organisation and the way it endures even as people come and go. Sociologists (thinking here of Peter Berger quoted in Os Guiness' The Gravedigger File) talk in terms of the social reality of religion and its plausibility*.
In other words, there appears to be a broad acceptance of the idea of some sort of intangible corporate influence on mindsets and behaviours.
I don't have an issue with this per se - and this is a topic on which Walter Wink is also worth reading on. Similarly I have no issue with personalised evil, when considered carefully amongst other things - it's instructive that exorcists within the CofE operate alongside other experts including medical professionals.
However, on the fringes of the march for Jesus, there was definitely the idea that there was an analogue to the 'Prince of Persia' that had to be defeated for each particular city in order that revival might come through.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Caissa
Shipmate
# 16710
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Posted
Myth9NJew Webster's Collegiate Dictionary) traditional story of ostensibly historical events that serves to unfold part of the world view of a people or explain a practice, belief or natural phenomenon.
Posts: 972 | From: Saint John, N.B. | Registered: Oct 2011
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Siegfried
Ship's ferret
# 29
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:
quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
Job is a piece of myth.
Though not disputing the assertion, can you please define precisely what you mean by 'myth'? It's one of those tricky words that lots of people can take to mean different things. I'd just like to check that my understanding is in accordance with your intention (and for the benefit of everyone else here).
Job is usually grouped with Proverbs and Ecclesiastes as a Wisdom book, rather than historical. So, as I understand it, it has value in helping us understand God, but is not intended to be historical.
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Siegfried
Life is just a bowl of cherries!
Posts: 5592 | From: Tallahassee, FL USA | Registered: May 2001
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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
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Posted
The idea that Christians have evil spiritual forces to wrestle with predates the charismatic movement by quite some way. Someone upthread has already mentioned early monasticism, while Martin Luther talked pretty vividly about what would now be termed 'spiritual warfare'. I don't think some of the stupid teaching which has clustered around the subject necessarily invalidates it.
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
However, on the fringes of the march for Jesus, there was definitely the idea that there was an analogue to the 'Prince of Persia' that had to be defeated for each particular city in order that revival might come through.
Yes, I know, and somewhere in my dusty archives is a defence of that theory as expounded in Taking our cities for God that I wrote in rebuttal to a (with hindsight) much saner pastor to whom I gave much grief. Si jeunesse savait, si vieillesse pouvait* ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
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*"If only youth knew; if the aged only could"
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Alex Cockell
Ship’s penguin
# 7487
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twangist:
"Spiritual attack" is often charismatic-ese for "bad luck".
Lots of our problems are due to the influences of the world, the flesh, and the devil. It's not wise or very honest to only blame the last member of this unholy trinity.
Any "theology" which causes people to focus more on Satan than on Christ and produces gnostic or even, as Euythcus calls them, Christianised witchcraft type practices is probably best given a wide berth (despite the needle of truth in the haystack of error).
Have you seen the TVTropes page on Jack Chick?
Tropes page - http://tinyurl.com/p2jmd6r
As hammy as he gets - http://tinyurl.com/nevn5zw
Posts: 2146 | From: Reading, Berkshire UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Siegfried:
quote:
Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:
quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
Job is a piece of myth.
Though not disputing the assertion, can you please define precisely what you mean by 'myth'? It's one of those tricky words that lots of people can take to mean different things. I'd just like to check that my understanding is in accordance with your intention (and for the benefit of everyone else here).
Job is usually grouped with Proverbs and Ecclesiastes as a Wisdom book, rather than historical. So, as I understand it, it has value in helping us understand God, but is not intended to be historical.
I don't mind Job being a 'myth' or a parable or an allegory or whatever; but it being so doesn't remove the possibility of there being a satan just as it doesn't remove the idea that there are people and livestock. I would have thought that the Bible's component books taken as a whole would be heavily weighted in favour of the spiritual realm being as real as the physical
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
The idea that Christians have evil spiritual forces to wrestle with predates the charismatic movement by quite some way. Someone upthread has already mentioned early monasticism, while Martin Luther talked pretty vividly about what would now be termed 'spiritual warfare'. I don't think some of the stupid teaching which has clustered around the subject necessarily invalidates it.
I agree. I think you can go too far and start seeing demons under every bush, but it's possible to be balanced about it. I, er, wrote a book on the subject (see sig below). One of the things I say right off the bat to anyone who thinks they're being attacked is to go get a medical check-up. And it's true that "shit happens," but it's also true that shit happens disproportionately to certain people on the front lines of the Kingdom (e.g. missionaries, pastors and other leaders, lay people who are doing work that is on the edge in some way*, whether secular or not; also the first few converts in an otherwise non-Christian people group, village, or extended family.)
* on the edge--I'm thinking, for example, of anyone who is working in an area where there could be a breakthrough alleviating human misery (or heck, animal misery etc.). For example, water supply work in Africa, anti-cancer research, public policy makers regarding poverty, crime, whatever. Any Christians among them would do well to look over their shoulders once in a while. And pray!
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Missed the edit window (drat). Wanted to say that I'm a Lutheran. We're not exactly known for going off the deep end with fancy emotional experiences and nifty ways to get rid of demons (we prefer to bore them to death at synodical conventions). So if anybody's wondering, the book is NOT filled with freaky suggestions or bizarre practices. More practical stuff that has proven useful to us over thirty years of Christian life and missionary service. Sorry. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
[ 19. June 2014, 23:51: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I think you can go too far and start seeing demons under every bush, but it's possible to be balanced about it. … One of the things I say right off the bat to anyone who thinks they're being attacked is to go get a medical check-up.
Balanced, indeed. Just as Man (human beings) can be considered a mysterious composition of Mind, Body, and Spirit, so we should treat the illnesses of each with remedies (therapies) specific to each.
There are Illnesses of the Mind; they require therapies suited to the Mind.
There are Illnesses of the Body; they require therapies suited to the Body.
There are Illnesses of the Spirit and for these spiritual therapies are required.
Obviously these illnesses bear on each other, so that an underlying bodily or mental illness of clinical depression (to pick the most neuralgic example on these boards) can be compounded by the spiritual illness of despondency ("The Noon-day Demon").
The basic features of poverty (say, malnutrition and stress) will tend to induce illnesses in mind, body, and spirit.
It makes no sense to tell one bearing the yoke of poverty to only apply the remedies of patience and gentleness to relieve the spiritual illness of anger when the heel of oppression of the wealthy grinds them down.
To suggest to the clinically depressed that only perseverance, labor, patience, and the rest are alone the proper remedies for acedia is spiritual malpractice.
Rather than seeking out a demon under every bush, one ought to see to the relief of malnutrition and stress, to provide clean water and effective waste water treatment, to order the right laboratory and medical tests, and to prescribe the proper medications and talk therapies.
[ 20. June 2014, 01:53: Message edited by: The Silent Acolyte ]
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Paul.
Shipmate
# 37
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
There are Illnesses of the Spirit and for these spiritual therapies are required.
What are spiritual illnesses and how does one distinguish them from mental ones? The examples you give, despondency and anger, to me are emotions not illnesses. They may be symptoms of mental health issues like depression.
I ask not to dismiss the idea but because I can't distinguish them enough for it to be a useful second category. As you say there's overlap and connection between say physical and mental problems but we can more easily distinguish them.
Posts: 3689 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Late Paul:
What are spiritual illnesses and how does one distinguish them from mental ones? ...I ask not to dismiss the idea but because I can't distinguish them enough for it to be a useful second category.
I suppose this is one thing the gift of 'discerning of spirits' (see 1 Corinthians 12:10) is for; discerning when there is a spiritual element to a certain issue or difficulty. Having said that, I agree with everyone above about the dangers of seeing demonic influence behind every illness, misfortune and tragedy. Often, it is indeed that shit happens, IMO.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
The problem is, South Coast Kevin, most of the people I've met who claim to have 'discernment' have anything but ...
Real spiritual discernment doesn't involve going around with a badge proclaiming, 'I've got spiritual discernment'.
I certainly agree with Mudfrog that there is a spiritual dimension that is very, very, very real ...
But at the same time, like him, I don't go around seeing demonic - or angelic - forces at work behind everything that happens.
This is one of those areas where the charismatic scene has to get a grip and stop taking itself so seriously, I'm afraid. You'd have thought they'd have learned by now ... but they still seem to be repeating the same mistakes.
It's all over-egged and over-realised - and I make no apologies for over using the 'over-egged' phrase just as I overuse the both/and not either/or trope.
I'm sorry, but there it is ...
Some of these people ought to get a bloody grip. The next ding-a-ling I hear talking about spiritual warfare and spiritual opposition or spiritual attack yadda yadda yadda I'll buy an airline ticket to Syria or to Iraq or some run-down area of Mexico ruled by drug-barons and send them there ...
Then they'll have something to complain about.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
...most of the people I've met who claim to have 'discernment' have anything but ...
Real spiritual discernment doesn't involve going around with a badge proclaiming, 'I've got spiritual discernment'.
Here, I agree with you. Much like humility, it's a tough gift to handle. One doesn't want to go around shouting about it, but then we ought not, in my view, hide our gifts under baskets quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Some of these people ought to get a bloody grip. The next ding-a-ling I hear talking about spiritual warfare and spiritual opposition or spiritual attack yadda yadda yadda I'll buy an airline ticket to Syria or to Iraq or some run-down area of Mexico ruled by drug-barons and send them there ...
Then they'll have something to complain about.
In my church (yes, a charismatic one) some of those who do speak of spiritual warfare do go to such places. I was talking on Sunday with one gentleman who regularly goes to Afghanistan and has witnessed more death than anyone ought to and he was telling me of a number of medics who he has spent much time with over the last few years who'd been killed within days of one another.
Yet in his view (not saying I agree with it wholly), 'spiritual attacks' are no less real than the Taliban. They're just less tangible.
So I would be hesitant about offhandedly saying that charismatics don't know what they're talking about.
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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
Posts: 3791 | From: On the corporate ladder | Registered: Jan 2012
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
The problem is, South Coast Kevin, most of the people I've met who claim to have 'discernment' have anything but ...
Let me be clear; I think there's a genuine danger of over-spiritualising things and seeing the demonic behind every unfortunate event. But might I also gently suggest that your personal experiences of having been a 'full-on' charismatic and subsequently moved away from that position, are perhaps colouring your assessment of this spiritual gift?
You might even be absolutely correct in your assessment. But so what? I thoroughly agree that we should be cautious in ascribing a spiritual / demonic cause to every tragedy or unwanted occurrence. But let's remain open to the possibility, is all I'm saying. And personally I don't see the harm in praying along the lines of 'If there is anything of the evil one at work here, then I stand in Jesus' power and command you to leave'. That kind of prayer carries no condemnation with it (no 'You've sinned and given the devil a foothold' stuff) but does address the possibility of malign spiritual influence.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twangist:
"Spiritual attack" is often charismatic-ese for "bad luck".
"Bad luck" is often the Pagan-ese for "spiritual attack". ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I'm not saying that charismatics in general don't know what they are talking about, simply that, as with much else, the rhetoric belies the reality - and it's not just charismatics who can be guilty of that.
I'm not saying that these things don't exist, nor am I saying that charismatics (and others) don't do good work in places like Afghanistan.
I'm simply suggesting that some of those who bang on about these things the most ought to spend some time in places like that in order to get a reality check. I'm not counting those who actually do spend time in such places.
Nor am I attempting to dismiss all matters charismatic ... a year or two back I heard a very convincing first-hand account of some charismatic activity in a favella in Brazil from someone who stood to gain nothing whatsoever from the account either in terms of personal kudos or anything else.
This is the Magazine of Christian Unrest so most of my postings about matters charismatic are going to be about the 'unrestful' aspects rather than the 'Oh, isn't it marvellous' aspects.
As for the kind of prayer that South Coast Kevin advocates - well, yes, if it floats your boat. I'd have less difficulty with South Coast Kevin's version that kind of prayer than some of the 'binding and loosing' type prayers I've heard in years gone by.
But then, these prayers aren't addressed to me ...
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
I do, however, have an issue with 'prayers' or commands addressed to the Devil or the powers of darkness - unless it's by a properly sanctioned/qualified specialist of some kind - such as those that the CofE and the RCs and other 'historic' churches have.
It always strikes me as ironic that some of those who have the biggest issue with the invocation of Mary or the Saints seem perfectly unabashed about engaging the Devil and his legions in conversation ...
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Sure, I can see where they get it from with demons being commanded to leave etc in the Gospels and Acts ... but I'm not sure I want to go around engaging the forces of darkness in conversation.
I've been involved in evangelistic outreaches and other forms of church activity where 'ground has been claimed' or the forces of darkness have been addressed and rebuked before the activity commences - and I can't say I ever noticed any difference in terms of the success or otherwise of such ventures.
Hence, I'm happy to leave well alone. I'm not going to make putative 'If there is any evil influence hereabouts ...' type prayers because I largely feel these would be a complete waste of time.
Give me the lectionary, give me a litany. They were good enough for the disciples, they're good enough for me ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Sure, I can see where they get it from with demons being commanded to leave etc in the Gospels and Acts ...
Yes, there I was ready to say I'm merely following the New Testament example of directly addressing evil powers, but then you claim to be following the example of Jesus' first followers:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Give me the lectionary, give me a litany. They were good enough for the disciples, they're good enough for me ...
Maybe I'm not understanding what you mean by 'litany' and 'lectionary'. Could you explain what you mean by saying these were 'good enough for the disciples'? Thanks!
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
quote:
Originally posted by Twangist:
"Spiritual attack" is often charismatic-ese for "bad luck".
"Bad luck" is often the Pagan-ese for "spiritual attack".
Actually, New Age people have been talking about spiritual attacks for a long time. I remember 30 years ago, that I had friends who used to talk about it, and they even prepared 'spiritual fighting tactics', in order to combat the attacks. I can't remember what they were now, I suppose, growling and looking fierce maybe.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
More seriously, for my money the best book I've read on the subject is Nigel Wright's 'A Theology of the Darkside' (originally issued as 'The Fair Face of Evil')
I absolutely agree. As a card-carrying Baptist charismatic and a highly serious NT theologian, Nigel is ideally placed to comment. He is a great fan of Barth and has, I'm sure, forgotten more theology than I've ever known.
They had to change the book's title as the cover of the earlier edition rather gave the impression that Nigel himself was the said "fair face"! I've not read the updated version.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
South Coast Kevin - I was teasing, hence the smilies and the pokey-out tongue ...
I'm not seriously suggesting that the disciples had copies of the Lectionary (whether in its RC, Anglican or Orthodox or whatever other incarnations and forms it may have) nor the Litany ...
This is going to sound very patronising, but you are awfully sweet sometimes, bless your little cotton socks.
On a more serious note, the thing about the NT practice of addressing evil powers and commanding them to go and so on ... well, yes, but there are caveats to that as the sons of Sceva found in Acts 19:14 ... they presumed to go around casting out demons in the name of the Christ that Paul was preaching and were told, 'Jesus we know and Paul we know, but who are you?'
Ok, one could argue that they were Jewish exorcists and therefore not fully with the programme and that as believers we have 'spiritual authority' and so on and so forth.
But I'm not sure I'd want to go round trying it on and playing fast and loose with these things.
I'm not suggesting you are, either ... but I know my limitations and would rather leave this sort of thing to the experts and specialists.
@Baptist Trainfan - yes, I've got a lot of time for Nigel Wright. Yes, he's big on Barth from what I can gather.
I'm not sure what's changed in the updated version of his book - other than that his photos no longer accompanied by the legend, 'The Fair Face of Evil ...' ...
I've not read the original so I can't compare the two. It made sense to me, though.
Back in the day, in the aftermath of the Toronto Blessing and so on, it was the writings of Wright, Tom Smail and Dr Andrew Walker that kept me going and set me on the trajectory I'm on now ... ie. away from full-on charismaticism but with an appreciation of its saner elements.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'm not seriously suggesting that the disciples had copies of the Lectionary (whether in its RC, Anglican or Orthodox or whatever other incarnations and forms it may have) nor the Litany ...
Then I don't understand what point you were trying to make, sorry. What were you getting at behind your tease?
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Ok, one could argue that [the sons of Sceva found in Acts 19:14] were Jewish exorcists and therefore not fully with the programme and that as believers we have 'spiritual authority' and so on and so forth.
And I would argue exactly that; we have 'spiritual authority' to the extent that we are living in obedience to Christ, at least that's how I understand spiritual warfare.
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
But I'm not sure I'd want to go round trying it on and playing fast and loose with these things.
I'm not suggesting you are, either ... but I know my limitations and would rather leave this sort of thing to the experts and specialists.
Well, I think one's status as an expert and specialist resides in our obedience and conformity to Christ. Training and learning can help - I'm studying for a theology Masters so don't take me as an anti-intellectual! - but IMO the extent of our faith in Christ is far more important than anything else.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
And I would argue exactly that; we have 'spiritual authority' to the extent that we are living in obedience to Christ, at least that's how I understand spiritual warfare.
The 'Sons of Sceva' didn't have a lack of belief, they just had belief in the wrong thing. If our spiritual authority is related to our own obedience we are totally screwed. Not my faith, but the object of my faith.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Back in the day, in the aftermath of the Toronto Blessing and so on, it was the writings of Wright, Tom Smail and Dr Andrew Walker that kept me going and set me on the trajectory I'm on now ... ie. away from full-on charismaticism but with an appreciation of its saner elements.
Yes, I agree. There was also a relatively unknown book by the late Douglas McBain, who'd first been involved in the charismatic movement in Scotland as far back as the late 1950s, which emphasised sane and theologically-nuanced "charismania". I think that he and Tom Smail were local colleagues in those days, although McBain was a Baptist and Smail moved from the CofS to the CofE.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
The more serious point behind my tease was that I'm happy to stick with the meat and two veg of the lectionary and litanies and so on rather than to start exploring exotic territory - such as 'spiritual warfare' and so on.
These days I'd incline towards the 'classic' view of these issues as espoused in the more traditional Churches - and as has been highlighted upthread ie. it's about learning to control our own passions and weaknesses rather than some kind of conflict with demons and such ... although I do believe in dark powers and evil forces and so on.
I'd also concur with Chris Stiles's post. If it's dependent on the extent of my faith in Christ then I'm well and truly stuffed.
It's the object of my faith not the extent of it.
I'm not going to strut around claiming 'authority' over this that and the other. That way lies pride and self-deception. It becomes almost a Christian equivalent of witchcraft or some kind of mind-over-matter thing ... Christian Science or name-it-and-claim-it health/wealth type hoo-ey.
@Baptist Trainfan, yes McBain was a sensible guy too and he was indeed around in Scotland at the time Tom Smail was getting into the renewal thing. McBain's book 'Fire Over The Waters' charted the rise and influence of the charismatic movement from a Baptist perspective and contains some wise observations and caveats.
@Everyone - please don't get me wrong, I'm not eschewing everything charismatic, far from it. I'm simply sounding a note of caution in these things.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Oh, and by the way, I don't take you as anti-intellectual at all, South Coast Kevin - far from it.
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Twangist
Shipmate
# 16208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
quote:
Originally posted by Twangist:
"Spiritual attack" is often charismatic-ese for "bad luck".
"Bad luck" is often the Pagan-ese for "spiritual attack".
one could make an argument that Good luck is too
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JJ
SDG
blog
Posts: 604 | From: Devon | Registered: Feb 2011
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
Sure. Usually it comes packaged as some kind of impersonal "spiritual laws" to be followed which "guarantee" success of some kind. No, Paganism is alive and well in the church and it's called the prosperity gospel.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
Gamaliel, have you ever said Compline? There's loads of spiritual warfare in there, presumably because there's a spirit who makes war on the church.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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Starbug
Shipmate
# 15917
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Posted
At a Charismatic church that I attended a few years ago, we had an event based on Neil Anderson's Steps to Freedom in Christ. Basically, you have to repent of everything you've done wrong. The book has long lists of things to repent of, just in case you forget something.
I
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“Oh the pointing again. They're screwdrivers! What are you going to do? Assemble a cabinet at them?” ― The Day of the Doctor
Posts: 1189 | From: West of the New Forest | Registered: Sep 2010
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Twangist
Shipmate
# 16208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Starbug:
At a Charismatic church that I attended a few years ago, we had an event based on Neil Anderson's Steps to Freedom in Christ. Basically, you have to repent of everything you've done wrong. The book has long lists of things to repent of, just in case you forget something.
I
hmm reminds me of
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JJ
SDG
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Posts: 604 | From: Devon | Registered: Feb 2011
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Twangist
Shipmate
# 16208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Sure. Usually it comes packaged as some kind of impersonal "spiritual laws" to be followed which "guarantee" success of some kind. No, Paganism is alive and well in the church and it's called the prosperity gospel.
"well" is a value judgement
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JJ
SDG
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Posts: 604 | From: Devon | Registered: Feb 2011
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Starbug:
At a Charismatic church that I attended a few years ago, we had an event based on Neil Anderson's Steps to Freedom in Christ. Basically, you have to repent of everything you've done wrong. The book has long lists of things to repent of, just in case you forget something.
This is a bit old now, but here what I think of his book The Bondage Breaker.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Starbug
Shipmate
# 15917
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Posted
At a Charismatic church that I attended a few years ago, we had an event based on Neil Anderson's Steps to Freedom in Christ. Basically, you have to repent of everything you've done wrong. The book has long lists of things to repent of, just in case you forget something.
I
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“Oh the pointing again. They're screwdrivers! What are you going to do? Assemble a cabinet at them?” ― The Day of the Doctor
Posts: 1189 | From: West of the New Forest | Registered: Sep 2010
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Back in the day, in the aftermath of the Toronto Blessing and so on, it was the writings of Wright, Tom Smail and Dr Andrew Walker that kept me going and set me on the trajectory I'm on now ... ie. away from full-on charismaticism but with an appreciation of its saner elements.
Not surprisingly (given that we seem to have followed a similar journey), I agree about Wright, Smail and Walker. Their writings really helped when all I saw around me was Charismatic insanity.
The only difference I would make to your comment is that I, increasingly, can't even see much to appreciate even in the saner elements. Even when I see old friends from the church I was in back then, I find it hard to understand how they can still be in pretty much the same place (spiritually) as we all were back in the 80's and 90's. The whole thing really bores me now. But that's my problem, not anyone else's!
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Starbug:
At a Charismatic church that I attended a few years ago, we had an event based on Neil Anderson's Steps to Freedom in Christ. Basically, you have to repent of everything you've done wrong. The book has long lists of things to repent of, just in case you forget something.
I really hate the image of God that such teachings portray. You have to repent of everything specifically before God will do x, y or z. So where is the God of grace and love in all this? What kind of God are we worshipping who says "uh uh uh - you didn't repent of that thing you said 5 years ago. You're not getting ANYTHING."
True story.....
I once bumped into an old acquaintance on a train. We had been in the same (charismatic) church a few years before. We chatted about this and that. Then she started telling me about her problems with a bad back. She had injured her back about 12 months before and it was still causing problems. Just as she was getting off of the train, she said this to me: "I keep asking the Lord to show me what it is I need to repent of, so that I can be healed."
I was flabbergasted. She had developed an image of God who was playing games with her. "I'm not going to heal you because you haven't repented of a sin. but I'm going to make you guess what sin it is." God is NOT a cruel bastard like that.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I do, however, have an issue with 'prayers' or commands addressed to the Devil or the powers of darkness ...
Sure, I can see where they get it from with demons being commanded to leave etc in the Gospels and Acts ... but I'm not sure I want to go around engaging the forces of darkness in conversation.
Yep, this is why I ask Jesus to do it, if I suspect anything spiritually nasty might be going on. I figure he knows what the truth of the matter is, he has the authority, why not? Like siccing your big brother on the neighborhood bully.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Late Paul:
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
There are Illnesses of the Spirit and for these spiritual therapies are required.
What are spiritual illnesses and how does one distinguish them from mental ones? The examples you give, despondency and anger, to me are emotions not illnesses.
Late Paul, these spiritual illness (or, "thoughts" or demons) are well worth listing again. quote:
Originally posted here by The Silent Acolyte:
The Desert Fathers teach us that the demons are constantly at war with us, insinuating their lies into our minds, enticing us to act against God and our better interests. The demons—or, better—the Thoughts by which the attacks are made are these:- Gluttony
- Avarice
- Lust
- Anger
- Sadness
- Despondency
- Pride
- Vainglory
At the root of all of these is Self-love, which sets up the self as an idol in opposition to the one true God. The remedy of the sickness of these thoughts is the therapy of Humility and single-minded love of God.
That Anger, Sadness, and Despondence seem to be emotions to you does not mean that they are also not sicknesses of the soul. The anger that I hold in my heart against my brother or sister because of some offense of theirs against my pride or my person is a sickness of the soul, for Jesus taught me to love my enemies and to pray and have compassion upon those who hurt me. When I direct my anger against my brother ("thou fool!") I endanger the health of my soul; my anger should be directed only against the devil and his host.
The sadness that I feel when denied some pleasure in life is an illness (a wrongful sadness), for my only pleasure in life ought to derived solely from knowing God more fully. I may feel a rightful sadness or mourning or compunction when I consider the multitude of my sins, but this is not the same disordered sadness.
Similar things may be said about acedie.
While the words may denote, in their common senses, emotions, in this spiritual system they denote those faculties of my mind and spirit, which, when directed in a disordered fashion, constitute spiritual sickness.
quote:
They may be symptoms of mental health issues like depression.
Yes, these may well be symptoms of an underlying mental illness. They may well have their etiology in a physical malady such as stress or malnutrition or a chemical imbalance. We are creatures with mind, body, and spirit. Our maladies are those of the mind, those of the body, and those of the spirit, often cryptically interlaced. I ask you not, like a modern or a post-modern, to place human-kind, our character and defects, into this box or that box or the other box. quote:
I ask not to dismiss the idea but because I can't distinguish them enough for it to be a useful second category.
It's not a second category; one might consider the spiritual illnesses to be the first category. All our maladies derive from the Ancient Fault. That fault was not a bodily nor a mental defect, but it was rather the spiritual illness of pride (not creatures, but "ye shall be as gods"). As I've suggested the illnesses which beset human-kind are multi-valent. quote:
As you say there's overlap and connection between say physical and mental problems but we can more easily distinguish them.
So true. In the current centuries we are happy to measure and categorize physical phenomena and we seem to be quite good at it. I'm all in favor of this scientific enterprise, for, as I implied up-thread¹, it may be that much energy created by the charismaniacal focus on demons and spirits ought rather to be focused on providing jobs, improving nutrition, reducing stress, and making universal access to potable water, proper waste water treatment, and health care.
And as someone pointed out upthread, we suck when it comes to discerning the spirits.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
@Daronmedway - yes, I've been to a few Compline services and no, I don't have a problem with the idea that there is a spirit which makes war on the Church.
I've never said that I have an issue with that.
What I do have an issue with, as I'm sure you do too, is the way this is often tackled and spoken about in some - but by no means all - charismatic circles.
@Oscar the Grouch - yes, absolutely and yes I find even mildly charismatic stuff pretty thin and boring these days. That doesn't mean that I no longer believe in the 'charismatic dimension' - I do. It's simply that much of what passes for it is a cardboard cut-out pastiche of the real thing.
When I meet friends from my '80s/90s charismatic days I find them pretty much stuck in the same place that they were then with increasing levels of frustration and disillusionment yet some kind of in-built inability to see things in any other way ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I haven't the faintest idea where the world, the flesh and the spirit, including the Devil, begin and end.
And I have never experienced anything, or know of anything, that's anything (apart from the records of Jesus), no matter how frightening and disturbing and weird and nasty and ongoing in my own head, that isn't entirely explicable by my being an isolated mind-body. And I completely and utterly believe in transcendent-immanent economically Triune God.
So I'm discrete AND part of a perichoretic continuum of spirit.
I believe in the populated spirit world - angels and demons 'only', not the spirits of anyone or anything else - as Jesus unambiguously believed in them as a human being. Which isn't 110% proof.
Post-resurrection there is no confirmation?
I LIKE the idea of institutionalized evil. Meta-evil. Gestalt evil. It's explanatory, without requiring ANY literal demon.
YET, I come from decades of fundamentalist influence to say the least. There are immensely powerful narratives of Satan and his demons throughout the Bible. Just as there are of God the Killer ...
I suppose I just don't understand what difference Satan and his demons make.
And then there's Gadara ...
If Satan is more than one of the greatest memes of all time - and always all be until we know - how does his catalysis work? How does his being the prince of the powers of the air (weather, 'atmosphere', broadcasting, jamming, amplifying OUR fear, OUR hatred, OUR lust) work?
Would we be nicer without him?
And in our at least two hundred thousand years of being modern humans, when did the 'pride' (another powerful meme, but a true phenomenon?) kick in? As we came up out of the Savannah two million years ago, when did we fall?
That's not fatuous, not facetious. The evolutionary narrative is all but utterly overwhelming and even shakes the big three caveats, the final one being human consciousness.
I suspect that the story is as ineffable as it can be. We evolved, INCLUDING our consciousness AND there is a Devil.
How does this ALL work? WHAT is to be discerned?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Starbug
Shipmate
# 15917
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Posted
I have a problem with this idea of 'righteous anger' versus 'wrongful anger'. The Bible says 'in your anger, do not sin'; it doesn't say 'don't get angry because you're just being selfish'.
One of the reasons I fell heavily away from the charismatic church was this feeling of constantly having to tie myself up in knots - 'Is my anger righteous or not? Am I allowed to feel like this or should I repent of it? Is God going to judge me for feeling angry about this?'
It's just too exhausting. Surely anger is just anger, whatever the cause? Maybe I was getting it wrong, but I got to the point where I just couldn't do the mental gymnastics any more.
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“Oh the pointing again. They're screwdrivers! What are you going to do? Assemble a cabinet at them?” ― The Day of the Doctor
Posts: 1189 | From: West of the New Forest | Registered: Sep 2010
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Starbug:
I have a problem with this idea of 'righteous anger' versus 'wrongful anger'. The Bible says 'in your anger, do not sin'; it doesn't say 'don't get angry because you're just being selfish'.
One of the reasons I fell heavily away from the charismatic church was this feeling of constantly having to tie myself up in knots - 'Is my anger righteous or not? Am I allowed to feel like this or should I repent of it? Is God going to judge me for feeling angry about this?'
It's just too exhausting. Surely anger is just anger, whatever the cause? Maybe I was getting it wrong, but I got to the point where I just couldn't do the mental gymnastics any more.
There are some distinctions that help me with this issue.
First is considering anger as a feeling. Feelings are not right or wrong, they are just raw data. They happen to you, like the weather. The question then is what you're going to do with them. THAT is where the moral choice comes in to do right or wrong. But it is not in itself a sin to be feeling anger, even at something petty. When you get "in your anger do not sin", it's clear that the Bible acknowledges that yes, you will feel anger, and yes, it is possible not to sin. Just keep your mouth and your actions under control till it passes.
The second consideration is the meanings of the phrases "righteous anger" and "wrongful anger." These are AFAIK not from the Bible, but they still impact our way of thinking. Righteous anger refers to anger that is justified, that is the correct response to something bad. Wrongful anger would be when I get mad at my blind dog for tripping me in the morning. It is not a correct response to blindness. Still, it happens (into every life a little anger must fall) and I then have the moral choice of what to do with that anger. At that point, it is possible to sin (or not).
If I curse the dog or kick him, I have sinned. If I mutter grrrrrrr to myself under my breath and then reach down and pet him, I have NOT sinned. I have acted appropriately by refusing to vent my wrongful (inappropriate) anger on him. Then I go off to the garden and weed furiously to use up the anger adrenaline. There is no sin in any of this.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
That's the nub of it Starbug. There's a telling quote in Andrew Walker's book about the 1980s 'Restoration' movement in the UK, 'Restoring The Kingdom' when a former leader in that movement tells Walker that he got fed up because, 'You couldn't even have a cold without it being a spiritual issue.'
That's where this sort of thing leads, to a kind of debilitating pernicketiness which is ultimately self-defeating. In other words, it's bollocks for the most part.
Sure, there are moderate charismatics and not all charismatic and 'enthusiastic' people take these things to extremes - of course they don't - but at the heart of it there can be a kind of extreme self-consciousness and unhealthy obsession with one's own personal spiritual responses that can get in the way of genuine spirituality.
Genuinely spiritual people enjoy life and just get on with things without obsessing about it.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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