homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   »   » Oblivion   » Spiritual attacks??? (Page 3)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2  3 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: Spiritual attacks???
Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649

 - Posted      Profile for Raptor Eye     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Starbug:
I have a problem with this idea of 'righteous anger' versus 'wrongful anger'. The Bible says 'in your anger, do not sin'; it doesn't say 'don't get angry because you're just being selfish'.

One of the reasons I fell heavily away from the charismatic church was this feeling of constantly having to tie myself up in knots - 'Is my anger righteous or not? Am I allowed to feel like this or should I repent of it? Is God going to judge me for feeling angry about this?'

It's just too exhausting. Surely anger is just anger, whatever the cause? Maybe I was getting it wrong, but I got to the point where I just couldn't do the mental gymnastics any more.

I think that there is a good reason for every emotion, so that it may be expressed and harnessed in a good way or in a harmful way.

I do believe that it is important that we make every effort toward self control and self knowledge, so that we know ourselves enough to recognise our triggers and danger points and are able to keep ourselves from harmful behaviour and from harmful thought. This is not obsessive, it's what is required of us imv, as it helps us to grow spiritually.

It shouldn't be confusing or exhausting or debilitating, rather it should be liberating.

--------------------
Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10

Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I think that's rather different to what Starbug is describing, Raptor Eye. I can see what you are getting at but in some charismatic churches there's an expected 'code' of behaviour that you feel obliged to live up to ... one of constant 'victory' and rejoicing, glory, glory, glory all the way ...

You can't live life at that kind of pitch. That's why there is so much 'burn-out' in charismatic and Pentecostal circles. The burn-out rate for Pentecostal pastors, for instance, is statistically a lot higher than it is for ministers and clergy from other churches.

Sure, I think it's right to aim for an equilibrium, to control the 'passions' as the old Fathers and Mothers would have it.

But a rather souped-up and frenetic form of the faith isn't necessarily the right way to go about achieving that.

'In quietness and confidence is your strength'.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649

 - Posted      Profile for Raptor Eye     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I think that's rather different to what Starbug is describing, Raptor Eye. I can see what you are getting at but in some charismatic churches there's an expected 'code' of behaviour that you feel obliged to live up to ... one of constant 'victory' and rejoicing, glory, glory, glory all the way ...

You can't live life at that kind of pitch. That's why there is so much 'burn-out' in charismatic and Pentecostal circles. The burn-out rate for Pentecostal pastors, for instance, is statistically a lot higher than it is for ministers and clergy from other churches.

Sure, I think it's right to aim for an equilibrium, to control the 'passions' as the old Fathers and Mothers would have it.

But a rather souped-up and frenetic form of the faith isn't necessarily the right way to go about achieving that.

'In quietness and confidence is your strength'.

I wonder whether what you describe might be compared with trying to live the teenage lifestyle without ever reaching maturity?

On the other hand, some churches may not allow for the energetic spiritual infant, child or teenager, assuming maturity where it hasn't been reached.

There is surely a place for energetic faith.

--------------------
Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10

Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

 - Posted      Profile for Lamb Chopped   Email Lamb Chopped   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I think Starbug was referring to the tiredness that comes with what some of us would call scrupulosity--the compulsion to examine one's thoughts, feelings, actions, etc. on every occasion in the narrowest detail to figure out whether they are sinful or not. The exact opposite of "Ah, let it go, Jesus will deal with it, thank God!"

I've had this disease and it is exhausting beyond belief. Took me years to get over it.

--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Starbug
Shipmate
# 15917

 - Posted      Profile for Starbug   Email Starbug   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Yes, thank you, Gamaliel and Lamb Chopped - that's exactly the kind of exhaustion I was trying to describe. I felt under a constant need to scrutinise what I was doing, feeling, experiencing... I just couldn't keep up.

It probably didn't help that I've suffered from anxiety and OCD in the past, so the weekly 'altar calls' (albeit without an altar) and the perceived need to be a constantly happy sunbeam for Jesus took their toll. I remember going forward for prayer for a particular issue for a second time - the girl actually said 'but we prayed about this last time', which left me feeling a failure for not being 'fixed' the first time.

It was the same church that did the steps to freedom in Christ event. I have to say, I didn't find that helpful at all. It was just another added pressure. Neil Anderson implies that you have to be constantly vigilant and on your guard to prevent Satan from taking over your life. As I said, probably not the best course for someone who already tends towards scrupulosity.

--------------------
“Oh the pointing again. They're screwdrivers! What are you going to do? Assemble a cabinet at them?” ― The Day of the Doctor

Posts: 1189 | From: West of the New Forest | Registered: Sep 2010  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

 - Posted      Profile for Baptist Trainfan   Email Baptist Trainfan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I think that's rather different to what Starbug is describing, Raptor Eye. I can see what you are getting at but in some charismatic churches there's an expected 'code' of behaviour that you feel obliged to live up to ... one of constant 'victory' and rejoicing, glory, glory, glory all the way ...

You can't live life at that kind of pitch. That's why there is so much 'burn-out' in charismatic and Pentecostal circles. The burn-out rate for Pentecostal pastors, for instance, is statistically a lot higher than it is for ministers and clergy from other churches.

I think it was the wise Pentecostal theologian Walter Hollenweger who described the tension in a young pastor he knew, who was going through a time of great difficulty in his personal life but still had to project an image of happiness and victory to his congregation. The contrast and essential dishonesty were tearing him apart.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

 - Posted      Profile for Lamb Chopped   Email Lamb Chopped   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
OCD is a bitch. And VERY difficult to distinguish between this and spiritual attacks proper. It feels so much like an outside attack.

--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

 - Posted      Profile for Eutychus   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Spiritual warfare: now with added poppies. There's nothing I can say about this in Purgatory.

--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110

 - Posted      Profile for Barnabas62   Email Barnabas62   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I remember from a few years ago hearing something from Rob White on this issue that I found helpful. After a gentle dig at folks who either "spiritualise" everything or become morbidly fascinated with demonologies, he observed that the most prevailing pressures on our lives were "the same old things". Coping with that which cannot be solved and therefore must be managed somehow. The wearing effects of dysfunctional relationships in all kinds of families; the pain, discomfort and frustrations of chronic illnesses; noisy or otherwise inconsiderate neighbours; long term unemployment; etc.

You can add your own to this list. The things which get us down, wear us out, rob us of joy. Now these things are real and as observed earlier much of this sort of pressure can be placed at the door of human imperfections. But these are the things which make us sad, or angry, or frustrated, or depressed.

Whereas the "poppy painting" type approach can actually getting in the way of recognising that such "calls to intercessions" do not in practice do nearly as much as the kindness of others in providing practical helps with the chronic burdens. These cannot be "magicked away". In this world we do have trouble. Burden bearing is in general a better Christian response. As is recognising that we are in trouble because of the burdens we are carrying, and asking for help.

--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

 - Posted      Profile for Boogie     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
These cannot be "magicked away". In this world we do have trouble. Burden bearing is in general a better Christian response. As is recognising that we are in trouble because of the burdens we are carrying, and asking for help.

Well said.

I found the charismatic stuff a temporary relief, much like a glass of wine or a good walk in the country.

Prayer is primarily a selfish pursuit, I would say - it make us feel better. Sharing burdens is the real sacrifice, I think.

--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk

Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641

 - Posted      Profile for chris stiles   Email chris stiles   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

Prayer is primarily a selfish pursuit

I don't think Prayer about oneself is inherently a selfish pursuit - the judgement at the end of Job tells me that there is a fair amount of latitude that God allows those who suffer.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Aye, anything that distracts us from sharing the obvious haemorrhaging in front of us, within us; the denied, killing, mundane burdens, is a spiritual attack, a deception.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Yes, Baptist Trainfan, and I suspect that this is one of the reasons why, statistically, the incidences of pastoral burn-out are higher among Pentecostal ministers than other types of church-leader and clergy.

@Raptor Eye, yes, there is certainly room for energetic faith - and there are different types of energy ... there's the long-haul energy of the marathon runner and the concentrated, quick-burst energy of the 100 metre sprinter.

It's the kind of over-egged scrupulosity and white-knuckle ride spirituality that characterises so much of the contemporary charismatic scene that can cause the problems.

I was a member of a full-on charismatic fellowship for 18 years and whilst we had a lot of good times, it tended - for all the upbeat rhetoric - to reinforce a sense of inadequacy ... there were constant 'altar-calls' and it created a form of dependency. It became very much a dependency-culture where people found it increasingly difficult to stand on their own two feet.

Of course, not everyone was like that ... some people thrived on it and still do.

I wasn't one of them. At least, not after the first few years.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110

 - Posted      Profile for Barnabas62   Email Barnabas62   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I guess prayer can be selfish, but not if you listen as well. Prayer is a possible 'encounter time' during which that which we bring may come up against the agenda of Another Mind. Human Minds can be changed thereby.

Even if all that happens in listening time is human reflection, it is sometimes in those times that we can become more aware of our self-serving tendencies

--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
The Silent Acolyte

Shipmate
# 1158

 - Posted      Profile for The Silent Acolyte     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
quote:
Originally posted by Starbug:
I have a problem with this idea of 'righteous anger' versus 'wrongful anger'. The Bible says 'in your anger, do not sin'; it doesn't say 'don't get angry because you're just being selfish'.

One of the reasons I fell heavily away from the charismatic church was this feeling of constantly having to tie myself up in knots - 'Is my anger righteous or not?

There are some distinctions that help me with this issue.

First is considering anger as a feeling. Feelings are not right or wrong, they are just raw data. They happen to you, like the weather. The question then is what you're going to do with them. THAT is where the moral choice comes in to do right or wrong.

Taken alone, Anger might well be considered a feeling or an emotion.

But, it is better to consider Anger a Thought—along with the other Thoughts: Gluttony, Greed, Lust, Sadness, Acedie, Pride, and Vainglory.

The rest of what Lamp Chopped says is right on point; the key is how we respond.

Anger may seem to suddenly appear as an emotion or feeling—the irascibility surges without our bidding it—but in fact, once it presents itself to our mind, more akin to a thought, we can choose to engage or endorse it—to think it—or we can choose to dismiss it.

Depending on the author there are more or fewer stages by which Anger, for example, may approach us. Anger presents itself (some call it 'provocation'), we entertain it, we consent to it (some say 'couple' with it), and finally we become captive of the Anger.

In this system, anxiety is a form of anger. The irascible part of our mind leaps up in thoughts of danger or foreboding imagining the future in response to the anxiety-producing image that that same imagination presents. An occasional anxiety is normal for humans. A vexing anxiety can arise from a habit of mind (a spiritual illness)that nutures it ("Take no thought for your life"¹) or there can be mental or physical causes, or a combination of the three.

If anxiety is an anticipatory anger, an anger against the imagination, resentment is an anger produced by a disordered use of the memory. Instead of mourning our past sins, we pour over and nourish offenses done against us and we allow the resentful anger to colonize our minds, preventing us from feeling deep compassion toward those who have done us wrong.

Anger in general, and these two forms of anger in particular, are spawned by a habit of anger in the mind. Provoked by an image or a memory, our mind leaps to anger because that is its habit. Without the habit of anger, provoked by that same image or memory, we might rather respond with trust in God or compassion for our fellow human.

If we continue to regard anger and the other thoughts as merely emotions or feelings, then may remain under the illusion that we are powerless against them. But if we regard them as an activity of our mind, then we gain some control over if, when, and how we think them.

Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

 - Posted      Profile for Lamb Chopped   Email Lamb Chopped   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I'm really confused. What is the connection between anxiety and anger?

Because I basically live in permanent anxiety (it seems to be a brain chemical problem) but don't usually get angry easily. Though I know some people do.

It concerns me a bit, because you seem to be classing this kind of anger as a sin.

--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
The Silent Acolyte

Shipmate
# 1158

 - Posted      Profile for The Silent Acolyte     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I tried to be careful to qualify by saying that there could be mental or physical causes of anxiety beyond the spiritual. So, if the anxiety is rooted in brain chemistry, there oughtn't be a sense of personal sin. All the brokenness of human nature (spiritual, mental, and physical) is due to sin, but not all the sin that is attendant to our lives is sin over which we have control. If I experience sin through, say, a cancer that riddles my thorax as a result of drinking fouled water, I am not personally responsible for my cancer.

Disordered or sinful anger and sinful fear result when our rational nature fails to govern our irascible nature. We should be angry at the devil and injustice. We should not be angry with our fellow humans, but should feel compassion. When we feel anger at our fellow, our rational nature fails to govern and direct properly our anger. We should fear the loss of God. We should not fear the loss of anything but what brings us closer to God, When we fear death or the loss of material things or relationships, our rational nature doesn't properly govern our fear.

Where I have made a mistake is in trying to force fit fear into anger. Both fear and anger are due to the irrational governance of my irascible nature. In the Praktikos, Evagrius claims that every sort of thought is contained in the Eight Thoughts. Lamb Chopped, your question makes me see that this cannot be so. Thank you.

Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

 - Posted      Profile for Lamb Chopped   Email Lamb Chopped   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
You're welcome. The problem with anxiety, of course, is that even when someone tells you it's not your fault, you will by definition be worrying that in fact it is...

I do know one person very well for whom anxiety always and immediately transmutes into anger. Not sure why. Perhaps it's the heightened emotional arousal that flips him from one to the other so easily. It took me years to realize that the anger was almost always rooted in anxiety. Mine is a lot less complicated, and that connection seemed so alien.

--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
mark_in_manchester

not waving, but...
# 15978

 - Posted      Profile for mark_in_manchester   Email mark_in_manchester   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I have a very long-term and destructive internal anger problem, and much of what TSA says rings true for me. Embarrassingly enough, I find myself wanting to recommend a book "From the TV series The Monastery" [Hot and Hormonal] by C.Jamison, Abbot of Worth 'Finding Happiness' which is a nice intro to the 8 thoughts. The section on wrath is helpful, but God knows I've work to do yet. The link with fear is very real for me - of loss of job (now dealt with, or should I say embraced), kids' respect, self respect, marriage, home and possessions, kids themselves. The chronic wearing-down which B62 talks about is very true in my small domestic life.

I've also found approaches which narrate this kind of thing in terms of spiritual warfare helpful - perhaps more so since this is very outside my tradition, and I am not enduring a potentially ham-fisted rendition on a Sunday morning. While I am making embarrassing admissions, I might recommend LC's e-book. [Hot and Hormonal] Regular prayer, bible study and, for me, written free-form self-examination (3 notebook pages a day) are proving useful in spotting the voice of the accuser.

Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010  |  IP: Logged
Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

 - Posted      Profile for Boogie     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

I do know one person very well for whom anxiety always and immediately transmutes into anger. Not sure why.

It's an animal thing.

Anxiety gives two basic responses, fight or flight. The anger thing is preparation for the fight.

Of course, when neither fight or flight is needed the result is stress.

Exercise helps both these problems a lot, it deals with both the chemicals which rush round for flight/flight and it reduces the anxiety by releasing endorphins and other chemicals which improve well being.

Not a spiritual battle at all - more ways to deal with natural anxiety.

--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk

Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
Arminian
Shipmate
# 16607

 - Posted      Profile for Arminian   Email Arminian   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Some of the dafter theology can be ruled out very quickly by its absence from the NT.

Being under a 'curse'. There is nothing in the NT about breaking curses. Neil Anderson teaches this rubbish... The only curses in the Bible are given by God in the OT and can't be broken... pity Neil Anderson didn't read his Bible very closely when he formulated this junk (and Derek Prince seems to have been one of the first to come out with this stuff too).

Binding spirits. Jesus didn't do it nor did Paul. Jesus didn't seem to judge them 'before the appointed time' but just cast them out. Jesus also warned about them coming back, so presumably he didn't send them off somewhere bound up beyond return.

Territorial spirits. Again nothing about Jesus or Paul getting involved with prayer walks, binding spirits. etc.

Teaching fear of occult influenced people. Again not in the NT. The emphasis was on using God's power in proclaiming the gospel. If Paul or Jesus ran into them, they cast the demon out, or told the demon to shut up. They didn't avoid demon possessed people like the plague, and they weren't afraid of them either.


How spiritual attack really works I suspect is via other humans who are demonically influenced or possessed. However in the NT, Paul and others are able to stop these attacks. What isn't stopped is persecution, which seems to be allowed on many occasions. There may be limits God has set on direct supernatural influence from demons, but humans have free will. As such if they want to attack you for your faith, they may be able to (although there are examples in the NT of God getting Peter out of jail after prayer from other Christians).

I would like to single out Neil Anderson's 'Freedom in Christ' as one of the daftest and most dangerous courses I've ever seen in church. Suggestions that you might need to pray for protection against the devil influencing your dreams every night being just one example. I can see this theology causing a great deal of fear and even mental breakdown. Bad, bad stuff...

Posts: 157 | From: London | Registered: Aug 2011  |  IP: Logged
PDA
Apprentice
# 16531

 - Posted      Profile for PDA   Email PDA   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The night I made this thread I broke my rib, or I should say somebody I was sparring with broke my rib.

My wife had to drive me to Liverpool for a meeting I had the next day (live in essex).

Evil demons??? or just the fact that I fight with professional fighters every week for fun?? who knows.

Posts: 40 | From: Essex | Registered: Jul 2011  |  IP: Logged
The Silent Acolyte

Shipmate
# 1158

 - Posted      Profile for The Silent Acolyte     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The medical chestnut well applies here and elsewhere when demons come to mind.

"When you hear hoofbeats, think horses not zebras."

In your case, I'm guessing it's "the fact that [you] fight with professional fighters every week," not demons.

Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716

 - Posted      Profile for ChastMastr   Author's homepage   Email ChastMastr   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Arminian:
Some of the dafter theology can be ruled out very quickly by its absence from the NT.

Apart from any of the other issues involved here, I don't think the NT works that way. We are not compelled as part of our faith to accept various doctrines if they are not clearly there in the NT, but that doesn't mean--in my considered opinion--that they are automatically ruled out any more than, say, the Creeds, or the notion of Purgatory, or notions about the Sacraments, or any other doctrine held by any church.

--------------------
My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
The Silent Acolyte

Shipmate
# 1158

 - Posted      Profile for The Silent Acolyte     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Not a spiritual battle at all - more ways to deal with natural anxiety.

This is a crux of the matter: anxiety is completely and totally un-natural. Before the ancient fault there was no anxiety or fear over anything but the loss of God. Humans walked with God as friends in the cool of the evening in the Garden.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716

 - Posted      Profile for ChastMastr   Author's homepage   Email ChastMastr   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Anxiety is only unnatural in the sense of "problems from a fallen world," though, which could be applied to... pretty much every bad thing in existence, human or otherwise, health or otherwise. It's natural in the way that diseases are natural.

--------------------
My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716

 - Posted      Profile for ChastMastr   Author's homepage   Email ChastMastr   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
(Heck, most of the people I know (including me) are on some kind of anti-anxiety/depression medication of some kind. I suspect the uptick in that is due to all of the chemicals in the environment affecting people neuro-chemistry...)

--------------------
My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
The Silent Acolyte

Shipmate
# 1158

 - Posted      Profile for The Silent Acolyte     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
You are correct as far as you go.

However, disease, ill-health, and death are distinctly not part of God's plan for us.

They are unnatural.

John Chrysostom teaches us to sing:
quote:
O Death, where is your sting?
O Hell, where is your victory?
Christ is risen! And you are over thrown.
Christ is risen! And demons are fallen.
Christ is risen! And the angels rejoice.
Christ is risen! And life reigns.
Christ is risen! And not one dead remains in the grave.


Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

 - Posted      Profile for no prophet's flag is set so...   Author's homepage   Email no prophet's flag is set so...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
You have to be joking. The walking with God in a garden is myth and allegory. And has nothing to do with human nature. Whatsoever.

Anxiety has a inverted U shaped curve. Up to a moderate amount is helpful. It improves performance at nearly everything. Too little means no motivation. To much immobilizes. It is foundational to humanity. However, there is more disordered anxiety today. Social and environmental conditions have changed. OCD is a particular extreme form. Meds and therapy.

As for disease not being part of God's plan, the opposite appears to be true. Everything about biology says so. John Chrysostom was no scientist and no biologist.

--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

 - Posted      Profile for Boogie     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Anxiety was essential to survival in hunter-gatherer times. There would be no humans left if we weren't good for running away from or standing up to predators!

The problem is that, in modern times, anxiety and things like hypervigilance are far less useful.

--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk

Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
Green Mario
Shipmate
# 18090

 - Posted      Profile for Green Mario     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
No prophet. I agree walking in the cool off the garden is a myth and allegory. How do you jump from this to "its got nothing to say about human nature? Isn't the point if myth and allegory in early genesis to tell us about God AND human nature?
Posts: 121 | Registered: Apr 2014  |  IP: Logged
The Silent Acolyte

Shipmate
# 1158

 - Posted      Profile for The Silent Acolyte     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
You have to be joking.

I'm being as serious as an anxiety attack.
quote:
The walking with God in a garden is myth and allegory.
Here, we are in agreement.
quote:
And has nothing to do with human nature. Whatsoever.
Quite the contrary. The creation myth is pivotal in developing a Christian theological anthropology. Together with eschatology, it forms the basis for Christian inquiry into what it means to be a human.
quote:
Anxiety has a inverted U shaped curve. Up to a moderate amount is helpful. It improves performance at nearly everything. Too little means no motivation. To much immobilizes.
Scientific and medical inquiry into the bases and physical and mental therapies for anxiety are crucial for relieving distress rooted there.
quote:
It is foundational to humanity.
Anxiety seems foundational to human nature, but it is foundational to humankind's second, fallen nature. When anxiety is disproportionate and rooted in worries about what you shall eat, what you shall drink, and what you shall put on your body, or even about life and death itself, it is a disordered anxiety.
quote:
However, there is more disordered anxiety today.
True enough. I have a close friend who wakes up with a shock in the middle of the night through anxiety with a neurochemical cause. He takes modern medications and I support him and am glad he does.
quote:
As for disease not being part of God's plan, the opposite appears to be true. Everything about biology says so.
Biology may speak to physical and mental aspects of fear and anxiety, but it is relatively innocent of the spiritual aspects.
quote:
John Chrysostom was no scientist and no biologist.
No, indeed. And, we are grateful for the huge advances in the physical and medical sciences since Chrysostom's time.

no prophet, you and I have had relatively similar exchanges in the past with roughly similar results.

I have to ask two questions, not to dismiss you, but rather to know where you are coming from: Are you a Christian?

If you are a Christian, then what are your sources for discerning the spiritual nature of humankind?

If you are not a Christian, then what are your sources for discerning the spiritual nature of humankind?

Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

 - Posted      Profile for no prophet's flag is set so...   Author's homepage   Email no prophet's flag is set so...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
My profile says "as Anglican as possible under the circumstances". I pay attention to the bible as a story of people trying to make sense of things. Not as fact. I enjoy liturgy because I can draw strength and comfort from it. I don't believe prayers get responses beyond support to endure and cope. Miracles are either hopeful nonsense or for other people - the former is the only sensible answer. I think evil and devils are other people misbehaving and in other cases failure to understand the facts of how nature works. I think we have to be intentional in all we do, and make fhe best decisions possible. We can draw strength from faith but must live with what we face on our own.

I used to believe more about miraculous things than I do now and don't challenge those ideas with most conversation. I do here because the discussion is possible without the early dismissal.

--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
You're describing me in my raging neo-liberalism no prophet. In which there is no loss of faith, on the contrary.

The psychology of the Fall is all very Neoplatonic and where and how it could actually be true in evolution I can't begin to work out any more.

Did human consciousness emerge for a couple of hundred thousand (or couple of billion?) years up until reaching some critical mass two hundred thousand years ago? Or by fiat in a Space Odyssey monolith event? Or did God make a functional adult human being, 'gifted' like a Blade Runner replicant with everything except false memories? In descending order of credibility. From a start of virtually none ...

However I cannot dismiss the supernatural kingdom, not just because God incarnate believed in it - Jesus believed in PSA and that isn't philosophically necessary either - but because He REMEMBERED it.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
The Silent Acolyte

Shipmate
# 1158

 - Posted      Profile for The Silent Acolyte     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
no prophet, thank you for detailing your beliefs. It makes it easier for me to understand your posts.

Might you go further to answer my other question:
quote:
What are your sources for discerning the spiritual nature of humankind?

Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

 - Posted      Profile for no prophet's flag is set so...   Author's homepage   Email no prophet's flag is set so...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Bible, reason and tradition in the first instance. Experience and observation in the second. With the most persuasive of the second being that my family has been slaughtered 3 times in the last hundred years, where no amount of praying spared the 2/5, 1/4 and 1/2 of the dead in 3 different wars, that praying for protection has had the specific opposite outcome of random violence in my family's life outside of war, and a series of other events that can have no other interpretations.

Companion on the journey. No rescue, any more than Jesus got rescued from his death by torture. God didn't rescue the historical martyrs either, nor the modern victims of genocide, hunger, epidemics. Because it does not work that way.

Lots of discussion, lots of pastoral counselling, lots of psychology. I just wish I had understood before my 6th decade of life.

--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716

 - Posted      Profile for ChastMastr   Author's homepage   Email ChastMastr   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
At least in this particular context, I agree with Silent Acolyte; I do think that, yes, this world is fallen, and yes, that anxiety (at least in the form in which we experience it) is something God did not intend for us, as well as disease, death, and the like. How the Fall affected/affects the development of life and humanity within time (and, indeed, I think something like neo-Platonism is involved, Martin! [Smile] ) I don't fully--and perhaps in this world cannot ever fully--understand. It may be that the only way to grasp certain metaphysical realities is via myth and symbol.

I believe in evolution, absolutely. Including the deaths of animals before (time-wise) humanity appeared on the scene. And yet at the same time I can believe that the Fall--even if it was humanity's fall, not just that of the angels--was the cause of animal deaths before man showed up. For all I know, time itself may be one of the things that the Fall broke.

--------------------
My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621

 - Posted      Profile for Jamat   Author's homepage   Email Jamat   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
NO Prophet:I think evil and devils are other people misbehaving and in other cases failure to understand the facts of how nature works.
So this is an experience driven pragmatism that dismisses supernatural intervention or interpretation in toto?

If so it is the prevalent view.

However, most of us have some particularities that cannot be simply naturally explained and of course the Bible abounds with supernatural encounters.

While we still die in wars and of cancer and on the roads and lose our loved ones, does that preclude a spiritual dimension breaking into time and influencing our outcomes?

If yes, are there any rules or clarifications that govern such experiences and does the Bible shed light on them?

I realise this can seem like a troll question so let me say that I do not think we can influence God by our confession or demands or by calling on his promises. We cannot do A in the natural and automatically get B in the spiritual. God isn't anyone's marionette.I am also neither a mystic or a spiritualist.

So, Are there any rules of engagement here?

--------------------
Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
mark_in_manchester

not waving, but...
# 15978

 - Posted      Profile for mark_in_manchester   Email mark_in_manchester   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I echo Jamat's question - what are the rules of engagement?

Today's reading was the demoniac and the pigs. He was oppressed, Jesus commanded, he was freed.

I am oppressed - by old, old wrath which continually fires up anew. I'm a Christian, and I can cast this as a spiritual attack. It comes on me as from outside, changes me to something strange and less sane ('he was beside himself with rage'). I shake and shout to myself as I re-live things, sometimes in my head, and sometimes audibly. I pray to be delivered.

Yes, I've had counselling and read CBT self-help books. Are we serious about this stuff continuing, even now? And if so - what are the rules of engagement? Does it take a priest? (Fr Pat / touring exponent of 'international haling ministry'). Does it take a pilgrimage? (Lourdes / New Wine). Does it take prayer and fasting? For how long (oh Lord)? Does it take removal of oneself to the desert, away from wife and kids, work and those pressures which seem to engender attack? Or does sanity and faithfulness mean just plodding on, day after day after day. Pray the prayer, hope to change, fall again. Repeat.

--------------------
"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)

Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

 - Posted      Profile for Lamb Chopped   Email Lamb Chopped   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
That sounds like PTSD (which I have too). I'm sure you've seen a doctor, and I'd keep on. Mine is finally resolving slowly after lo, thirteen years? but not gone yet.

I think the first thing to do is discernment. With tons of prayer and consultation with others--strong, experienced Christians and also doctors/shrinks, find out how much of this is purely human and whether there might be any other component to it. Certainly you don't need to fear possession--there's no way the Holy Spirit will "share a room" with an evil spirit, so any Christian believer is safe on that account. But it is possible to have demonic harassment from outside, whether that takes the form of temptation to sin or just attempts at pushing your emotional buttons. In fact, that sounds like the normal Christian life situation to me, though you're in a slightly more dramatic phase!

Once you think you have a handle on what's going on, implement the counter strategies. for the human stuff, work on good diet and exercise (and sleep!), de-stressing your life as much as possible, take your meds (if any), building friendships and strong family relationships, and having fun (Luther recommended music and pubs, I believe). for the possibly demonic stuff, tons of prayer (no surprise there), regular communion and Bible reading, and a request to as many fellow Christians as you like that they pray for you in this matter. If you think there's truly something highly unusual, beyond the normal Christian experience going on, talk to your denomination's appointed exorcist or whatever they are called in your denom. But I doubt that will be necessary.

And then there's patience. Grrrrrrrrrr (we hates being patient, my preciousssss). But patience with the slowness of healing AND patience with yourself for being less than perfect for so long is worth gold.

(since you're reading my book [Hot and Hormonal] ), I'm going to suggest a look at the bit on behavior modification for big, scary enemies [Biased] . identify a very clear, specific, and easy-to-perform action that you KNOW anything evil would violently disapprove of (say, mowing your elderly neighbor's grass, or setting the timer for fifteen minutes and sitting down then and there to pray and yell at God in private). At the first sign of an attack, grit your teeth and go do that thing. I find that after a few go rounds of this attack/response cycle, spiritual enemy X pisses off to wherever he came from, doubtless to plan a different attack, but hey...

--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649

 - Posted      Profile for Raptor Eye     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
These are important questions. FWIW my view is that God does spiritually interact with the world and its people constantly, but God is not controllable by anyone or anything. We may reject, disbelieve, treat with contempt or embrace the concept. Regardless of that, God remains and becomes accessible to us through religion, so that we may draw near to God, in which case God draws near to us.

The continuing relationship may reach a point in which we are able to listen to and follow God's guidance, with other people's help to aid with discernment (preferably those who have had their own calling discerned, especially within an organised religion). The vehicle by which God communicates with us is love.

Once following the guidance of God, we find out more about ourselves as we are slowly transformed into the image of Christ, at the same time retaining our own complete identity. As it is exposed to the purity of God shining through us, imperfections such as anger, past hurts or wrongdoings, etc - anything which attacks us spiritually - will be healed and overcome.

Occasionally, the healing process may be accelerated, in which case it becomes apparent to those around that something extraordinarily good has taken place and God's good name may be broadcast again as a result. The good seed needs to be continually sown, so that people know who to turn to for help and learn that they can trust in God - not to stop bad things from happening, but to help us to bring something positive out from them, in the end.

Patience, trust, hope, and a determination to persevere in our quest to live God's way of love are what are needed from our side. All God has to do is to be God.

Cross-posted with Lamb Chopped

[ 02. July 2014, 12:13: Message edited by: Raptor Eye ]

--------------------
Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10

Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Aye, it's PTSD. Whatever else it is, which we'll never know in this life. I know it well ...

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621

 - Posted      Profile for Jamat   Author's homepage   Email Jamat   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
That is an awesome post LC! I too think we are so complex that we can't often go straight to a central issue without help. One rule of engagement for me has been admitting an issue consciously rather than denying it. However at the risk of seeming trite, I have found as another, that for me, I can never never allow myself to question God's integrity,love or existence. This is hard when black times can stretch into years. CBT has helped me sometimes. The story I tell myself is, no matter how awful I feel, God hasn't changed and he loves me. One last thing which I hope isn't a technique, is to do everything I can to be outward looking..major issue for black dog sufferers but engaging outwards seems to help control panic attacks.

--------------------
Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
mark_in_manchester

not waving, but...
# 15978

 - Posted      Profile for mark_in_manchester   Email mark_in_manchester   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Yesterday's reading (I always want to say 'the Gabardine demoniac) got me into this thread, and today we have

quote:
Put your finger here and see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it in my side. Do not doubt but believe
So thanks Jamat - that echoes something you said, doesn't it.

The day before, it was 'ye of little faith - why are you afraid?'. Another one straight at me.

LC - thanks, again. The b.mod idea is a good one; these days I'm doing a lot of (well, daily) internet-enabled gospel reading courtesy of sacredspace.ie, which seems like the kind of thing a malevolent spirit would dislike well enough. Sometimes it works, keeping me in my right mind. Some of it seems to stick.

Doctors - no, avenue exhausted - I chose running over SSRIs. Minister - more broken than me. Someone else's minister - a nagging possibility (Fr Pat, not the exponent of international healing ministry. The last local one of those turned out to be stealing babies from somewhere remote - guess that was the international bit - and persuading desperate childless women they had come from the Lord.) Christian friends - one good, solid, right-wing man with whom I spar regularly. I'd have to wrap this carefully for him - self-indulgent leftie introspection is likely to press his buttons, and he'd see it coming from me.

I know this isn't AS - I'll desist now, mods.

--------------------
"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)

Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

 - Posted      Profile for Eutychus   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
hosting/

Thank you. Please note the guidelines for the boards and the 10Cs in this respect too.

/hosting

--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Jude
Shipmate
# 3033

 - Posted      Profile for Jude   Email Jude   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Originally posted by Arminian:
quote:
Some of the dafter theology can be ruled out very quickly by its absence from the NT.

Being under a 'curse'. There is nothing in the NT about breaking curses. Neil Anderson teaches this rubbish... The only curses in the Bible are given by God in the OT and can't be broken... pity Neil Anderson didn't read his Bible very closely when he formulated this junk (and Derek Prince seems to have been one of the first to come out with this stuff too).

Binding spirits. Jesus didn't do it nor did Paul. Jesus didn't seem to judge them 'before the appointed time' but just cast them out. Jesus also warned about them coming back, so presumably he didn't send them off somewhere bound up beyond return.

Territorial spirits. Again nothing about Jesus or Paul getting involved with prayer walks, binding spirits. etc.

Teaching fear of occult influenced people. Again not in the NT. The emphasis was on using God's power in proclaiming the gospel. If Paul or Jesus ran into them, they cast the demon out, or told the demon to shut up. They didn't avoid demon possessed people like the plague, and they weren't afraid of them either.


How spiritual attack really works I suspect is via other humans who are demonically influenced or possessed. However in the NT, Paul and others are able to stop these attacks. What isn't stopped is persecution, which seems to be allowed on many occasions. There may be limits God has set on direct supernatural influence from demons, but humans have free will. As such if they want to attack you for your faith, they may be able to (although there are examples in the NT of God getting Peter out of jail after prayer from other Christians).

I would like to single out Neil Anderson's 'Freedom in Christ' as one of the daftest and most dangerous courses I've ever seen in church. Suggestions that you might need to pray for protection against the devil influencing your dreams every night being just one example. I can see this theology causing a great deal of fear and even mental breakdown. Bad, bad stuff...

I agree with you on every level, Arminian. I was subjected to this vile rubbish several years ago and am still living with the consequences, including mental ill health. Worst of all, members of my family are still being influenced by it and there's nothing I can do about it.

--------------------
"...But I always want to know the things one shouldn’t do.”
“So as to do them?” asked her aunt.
“So as to choose,” said Isabel.
Henry James - The Portrait of A Lady

Posts: 233 | From: A town with four parishes | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2  3 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
follow ship of fools on twitter
buy your ship of fools postcards
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
 
  ship of fools