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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Jimmy Savile
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Horatio Harumph
Shipmate
# 10855
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Posted
It is no shock, well not to me anyway, that the reports that have come today from investigations into Jimmy Saviles actions at hospitals show horrific levels of depravity.
Even the most stanchest defenders of his name I have come into contact with online over the last few years since the original expose have had little to say so far since the release of the reports.
Social media/the media is awash with commentators having an opinion.
Many calling for someone to be held to account.
Even I said it earlier - that someone somewhere had the power to stop this. But didn't.
It was said that 'no one person was to blame other than Jimmy Savile'.
I find that remark intolerable personally.
Am I naive to think that actually someone somewhere could have stepped in, but corruption and cover up won out?
And what now? Where next?
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www.helenblogs.com
@helen_a13
Chocolate is proof that God wants us to be happy.
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
I have a horrible suspicion that sexual abuse exists in just about every family and institution in the world (I can't speak for small tribal societies, though). The more influence or fame an abuser has, the more they can get away with, but even uninfluential abusers are protected or ignored by otherwise good people. It's all quite sad.
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
I find it hard to believe that this level of abuse could go on without someone knowing about it. saVILE cannot have been acting alone. Where are the arrests of the people who covered up for him?
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Last ever sig ...
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Horatio Harumph
Shipmate
# 10855
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Posted
Its been made clear today that people DID know about it. People did report it. People got ignored. Disbelieved. Other health professionals discredited. One nurse said she was told she was a 'silly girl' by a consultant when she attempted to report abuse.
So yes people did know.
And were powerless.
Yet someone somewhere did have the power to pull the plug on this. People still in office today, I believe. People who could potentially be held accountable ...
But will it ever happen?
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www.helenblogs.com
@helen_a13
Chocolate is proof that God wants us to be happy.
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
I'm not surprised by the findings of the report, and I don't think he was the only 'personality' to behave like this at that time - worse, I don't think he'll be the last.
What amazed me as a teenager in the 60s/early 70s (and more now) was how this completely talentless and charmless individual was employed by the BBC and was able to forge a career out of being completely out-of-touch with the 'guys and gals' he claimed to be presenting for and to. Quite apart from everything else, he was a generation (at least) older than all the pop acts of the time; even the 'grand old man' Elvis Presley was nine years younger than Savile.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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St Everild
Shipmate
# 3626
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Posted
It is a case of "money talks", I think.
Jimmy Savile raised a huge amount of money for the institutions with which he was associated. Who would have dared speak out and risk losing all that money for their institution? And so the powerless were, once again, sacrificed to the god of money and power.
It sucks.
Posts: 1782 | From: Bethnei | Registered: Dec 2002
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
There was a piece in the Guardian today in which Oliver James looked at the mind of Savile.
Savile's motivation
I think it would be rather more to the point to look into the minds of the collaborators.
And those who kept silent about Cyril Smith and about the visitors ot various odd houses about the place where children were abused.
And how, before the internet, these groups were set up, how they recognised each other.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Horatio Harumph
Shipmate
# 10855
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Posted
Is this piece inherently shifting the blame on to his mother and their relationship?
Which I dislike.
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www.helenblogs.com
@helen_a13
Chocolate is proof that God wants us to be happy.
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Something I have wondered, but I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask -
Jimmy Savile almost died as a small boy. His mother prayed to Margaret Sinclair, a nun who had died not long before, and Savile's recovery was credited to her. This healing was part of the reason she became the Venerable Margaret Sinclair.
Oliver James doesn't mention it, but growing up knowing that he had been miraculously healed and that his healing was part of the grounds for considering canonisation for Margaret Sinclair - could that not have contributed to his narcissism?
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
That article does not reflect well on the Guardian. While there may be reasons for Savile feeling the way he did there is absolutely no excuse for acting on those impulses.
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Last ever sig ...
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
The article doesn't excuse anything. Ah well. It's all about what we bring to the party.
I met Savile, with my sister, father, mother, uncle, aunt, cousin in extreme, prolonged circumstances. He was a remarkable human being who impressed us all. Not so the junior female professionals present interestingly.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
...raised an estimated £40 million for charities
...450 people had made complaints against Savile,... Some 214 criminal offences were recorded, with 34 rapes having been reported across 28 police forces.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Savile
Like someone upthread said, probably the money, he was "too big to be allowed to fail."
Not the first or last time a "valuable" person is protected because the benefits he offers are considered so important either (a) the charge is not believed or (b) any victim(s) is considered unimportant in comparison.
Any police officer who dared arrest such a "valuable" man and threaten to "kill the source of the golden eggs" would probably have found his investigation hindered by higher ups and his
career sidelined.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
I found the Guardian article to be good. Saville's not a case for easy, quick answers.
Philip Zimbardo's work shows that institutional abuse, for that is what we are talking about, is comprised of a very powerful spirit, or mood; the general mindset can be of not saying anything, tolerating, condoning and its very difficult to go against that, especially in a climate where young women and children (or football fans, for that matter) were lower down in the hierarchy. The 1980s was to culminate in all manner of sick events, hence the wave of revelations/allegations that we've seen over these past few years.
It is this spirit, or mood, that Walter Wink spoke about in his writings about "powers and principalities". Something human made but more than human. Something evil that takes many in. Something that doesn't look at the time to be evil to all, in that there will always be people standing up for it, pointing out the good sides, focussing wholly on the good sides (in this case, his charity work, "Jim'll fix it").
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
How do you prosecute a dead guy? Is it not a waste of the resources of the CPS? In my part of the world, we let the dead lie.
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
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opaWim
Shipmate
# 11137
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
Something I have wondered, but I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask -
Jimmy Savile almost died as a small boy. His mother prayed to Margaret Sinclair, a nun who had died not long before, and Savile's recovery was credited to her. This healing was part of the reason she became the Venerable Margaret Sinclair.
Oliver James doesn't mention it, but growing up knowing that he had been miraculously healed and that his healing was part of the grounds for considering canonisation for Margaret Sinclair - could that not have contributed to his narcissism?
I doubt it.
Does Jimmy Savile strike you as someone who took the/his R.C. faith particularly seriously?
Anyway, venerators of the Venerable Margaret Sinclair need not fear that this will hinder her eventual canonization.
The incorrigible and up until his last breath obviously non-repentant Lord Protector of Savile's colleague father Marcial Maciel Degollado, the pope who arguably did more (mainly by the grave sin of omission) for the protection of pederast priests and religious than any of his predecessors, was rather speedily canonized on april 24th of this year.
When even a pope who consciously ignored the numerous crimes of one of his larger financial contributors, and indeed kept sitting on his hands even after the scandal of consecrated sexual predators unfolded into unheard of proportions, can be canonized, than surely the canonization of someone truly deserving like Sister Mary Francis of the Five Wounds can only be a matter of time.
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It's the Thirties all over again, possibly even worse.
Posts: 524 | From: The Marshes | Registered: Mar 2006
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opaWim
Shipmate
# 11137
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Posted
Not that it particularly matters but the canonization of said Lord Protector was of course on April 27th 2014.
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It's the Thirties all over again, possibly even worse.
Posts: 524 | From: The Marshes | Registered: Mar 2006
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
What amazed me as a teenager in the 60s/early 70s (and more now) was how this completely talentless and charmless individual was employed by the BBC
A habit they have not foregone by any means...
The usual rationale for these monsters is that they are popular: they articulate a (just) acceptable version of the sexism, racism, xenophobia etc of some of the audience. Of course, it changes over time and prime time stars fade from the TV (if not from lucrative 'live' careers). Or, like Savile, they build a myth that they are The One Who Succeeds at X - so they are given more opportunities to appear in this role, which in turn confirms their status.
It is a giant confidence trick, and like all confidence tricks, once it's exposed everyone says 'I didn't buy - but everyone else did'.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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agingjb
Shipmate
# 16555
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Posted
Even if the perpetrator of a crime is dead, that is no reason not to prosecute accessories to the crime.
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Refraction Villanelles
Posts: 464 | From: Southern England | Registered: Jul 2011
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
If you look at the recent prosecutions arising out of the Saville case, it is evident that 450 complaints regarding Saville would not necessarily have led to 450 convictions.
That makes it quite difficult to accurately compare him with living sex offenders, as we would not normally have access to this amount of information. We don't know if he was unusually prolific in his offending, nor if people's reactions to reporting was unusual in the time period in which it occurred.
What was unusual was his level of access, given he was not a member of hospital staff. But you should remember, widespread - national as opposed to local - police checking, is relatively recent. It only really reached its current level after the Soham murders in 2002. This despite events like the trial of Keith Laverack.
I am not convinced that Laverack was a less serious offender than Saville, he raped more than 20 children, and there will have been other offences that didn't get to court. (He is dead by the way, if anyone is worried about libel.). What it tells you, is it is difficult to catch abusers who hold positions of authority and trust, be they celebrities, priests, politicians, or service managers.
I think that is inherent in the fact of their being in positions of power and trust. They have succeeded in becoming trusted, of they would not have that power and access in the first place. Safegarding procedures are now far more stringent than they were in Saville's day, but I have still seen cases where SOVA investigation finds a staff member has open police warrants (CRB checks were on a three year rolling cycle, and he simply hadn't told his employers he had committed fraud in the interim) and that a staff member was not supposed to be working somewhere owing to previous issues. The process of tendering services every five minutes means that institutional knowledge of such things gets lost as individuals move between services.
Also, client makes an allegation, staff member is suspended, client is supported to make a video statement to the police (and getting said vulnerable client to talk to the police on camera in the first place was a considerable achievement) - but the statement is too confused and tangential to have any chance at all of standing up to cross examination.
We believe the client, because we have seen the impact on the client, and know their communication style. But the outcome in a situation like that is likely to be a substantiated allegation as far as social services are concerned, that person losing their job and possibly being put on the vetting and barring list, but no conviction for assault. And the vetting and barring thing could get overturned on appeal, because there is no conviction to back it up.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Now that story of the healing rings a bell. One of my pupils was an challenging child with a great sense of entitlement for which he felt it unnecessary to work. It transpired that when he was in a pushchair, his mother was pushing him along a cliff path on the Isle of Wight, when the path just ahead collapsed, the chair hanging over the edge. His mother held it to be miraculous, presaging some great future for him, that he was preserved. I was not convinced that this belief was helpful to his development.
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I thought the James' article was OK, in fact, pretty standard fare from the psychological point of view. The idea that he wanted to inflict distress is quite insightful, and then this leads to the idea that he was trying to shift his own distress out on to others.
In fact, this mechanism is very common.
However, I was a bit puzzled by the end, where James argues that Savile's early life was probably traumatic in some way, (fair enough), and that we should be able to detect this and deal with it.
This strikes me as very optimistic. I don't see how any government is going to set up some kind of system to detect any early abuse, and counter-measures taken. That is not going to happen, but maybe he knows that actually.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I forgot to say also that Savile was not abused, as far as is known, but according to James had 'a very intense enmeshment with his mother', and after her death, became 'semi-psychotic' about her.
This makes the idea of the treatment of disturbed children even more unlikely, if they have not been abused. No-one would have picked up Savile's disturbance in his early years.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
This is a report from the Mirror which shows some of what could happen when matters - in this case without Savile - which could damage "elites" were investigated. (If you look it up in IE, you might find woefully inappropriate musical ads surrounding it.)
South London abuse case
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I forgot to say also that Savile was not abused, as far as is known, but according to James had 'a very intense enmeshment with his mother', and after her death, became 'semi-psychotic' about her.
This makes the idea of the treatment of disturbed children even more unlikely, if they have not been abused. No-one would have picked up Savile's disturbance in his early years.
Well, except that if you watched any vt of his none scripted interactions with anyone he comes across as someone with serious social problems - have you seen the Theroux documentary ?
Wouldn't have been picked up in the 50s, but schools and nurseries nowadays are much more alert - he might well have ended up identified as having special educational needs.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Further to the link above - if you feel like looking at other sources, you will find some odd ones - David Icke is probably the most harmless - some are very nasty indeed. Beware.
[ 28. June 2014, 09:29: Message edited by: Penny S ]
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
(Every time I try to access the guardian it tells me I have no internet access - anyone else having this problem ? )
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I forgot to say also that Savile was not abused, as far as is known, but according to James had 'a very intense enmeshment with his mother', and after her death, became 'semi-psychotic' about her.
This makes the idea of the treatment of disturbed children even more unlikely, if they have not been abused. No-one would have picked up Savile's disturbance in his early years.
Well, except that if you watched any vt of his none scripted interactions with anyone he comes across as someone with serious social problems - have you seen the Theroux documentary ?
Wouldn't have been picked up in the 50s, but schools and nurseries nowadays are much more alert - he might well have ended up identified as having special educational needs.
OK, fair enough. I thought actually that James was maybe being sarcastic.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Rosa Winkel - at the very least that is a powerful spirit metaphor - 40 years ago in Bradford I came across the expression in a Baptist setting of all things: the Devil shits where there is most. Just taking it metaphorically, along with the Devil looks after his own: we are complicit in patriarchy, that has an incredibly suppressing effect. Low status victims don't exist.
Patriarchy is SO powerful it destroyed Christianity 1700 years ago. By embracing AND seducing it.
'Savile' was at work then.
Savile exists in a 60 year timeline where domestic violence, racism, homophobia, rape, corporal punishment didn't break the surface. The spirit of the age.
It's not, Belle Ringer, a price that is prepared to be paid. Savile was a predatory, SEDUCING (it's not called corruption for nothing), genius. He didn't break the hard, layered, surface by a long way, from which he dived to dark depths silently. Alone. There was no hard, credible evidence by high status witnesses.
opaWim - this is NOT slagging off the RCC or Roman Catholic faith - why wouldn't Savile believe deeply that he did take it seriously?
That's how he came across to me. A man of deep faith and devotion to his mothers.
Childhood trauma has to be eliminated and his back was broken when he was a Bevan boy around the end of WWII. The casualty rate down the mines was higher than in the army. He was told he'd never walk again. But this is played out on contingent, genetic, developmental factors independent of trauma. In the awesome Channel 4 documentary Beyond Love the psychiatric consensus was and will always remain that we have blamed parents and grandparents for too long. Minds develop very mysteriously. As the great and the good in and on psychiatry literally said on Radio 4 at 8 p.m. some 10 years ago: it's all bollocks.
This is all good, we're learning still after two hundred thousand years.
[ 28. June 2014, 09:36: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Wesley J
Silly Shipmate
# 6075
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Well, except that if you watched any vt of his none scripted interactions with anyone he comes across as someone with serious social problems - have you seen the Theroux documentary ? [...]
Which Theroux documentary would that be? The man is pretty prolific.
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Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)
Posts: 7354 | From: The Isles of Silly | Registered: May 2004
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Martin, your point about Savile being a Catholic - I think it possible that he was very devout. There isn't a contradiction here really; maybe a compartmentalization, but also some great sinners are devout, as a kind of compensation. People are not linear.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I am also having trouble opening pages in the Guardian - not just that link. And opening other pages which Google presented me with with when looking up that home, a possibly associated murder, and an account of an armed policeman warning someone off.
As I was able to open nasty pages naming MPs of a particular kind, and enough giving accounts of what may have happened to a whistle blowing social worker to get a picture of concerns, I don't suppose some sort of conspiracy covering things up.
BTW, there is a warning that you shouldn't behave like people in detective programmes and tell people you know something and will reveal it tomorrow. Keep schtum first, keep off the internet and the phones, and then reveal whatever it is over as wide a range as possible, all at once.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
# 15351
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Posted
Wesley J: "When Louis Theroux met Jimmy Savile".
If you Google "louis theroux jimmy savile" then the top link will (probably) be to Vimeo where the whole documentary is available.
I won't post the link so the hosts don't feel obliged to sit through an hour of something they may not want to watch!
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Vain witterings :-: Vain pretentions :-: The Dog's Blog(locks)
Posts: 1399 | From: just north of That London | Registered: Dec 2009
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
(Every time I try to access the guardian it tells me I have no internet access - anyone else having this problem ? )
OTC, getting quicker access than a lot of other sites (net connection running like wet cement this last day or so).
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
(The Guardian seems to be having some sort of a problem with its DNS servers at present. "try again later" as they say.)
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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opaWim
Shipmate
# 11137
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
opaWim - this is NOT slagging off the RCC or Roman Catholic faith - why wouldn't Savile believe deeply that he did take it seriously?
1. If he did he very well knew he would go straight to hell if he didn't manage to go to confession, sincerely repenting, before he died.
2. If he did take the R.C. faith seriously, and thought he could get away with this ... err ... lifestyle, he was an extraordinarily cynical bastard.
3. The R.C. church has a number of offenses whereby the offender ex-communicates himself.
A lot of these offenses, if not most, boil down to disobedience to those in authority (any priest for lay-persons, and any higher up priest for priests), but if being a persistent serial rapist and pederast isn't one of them, it should be.
[ 28. June 2014, 10:31: Message edited by: opaWim ]
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It's the Thirties all over again, possibly even worse.
Posts: 524 | From: The Marshes | Registered: Mar 2006
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
Of course he was an abuser, of course he was creepy and sexually deviant.
BUT
I am increasingly worried by the rise of guiolt because of accusation. Why are all these allegations taken unquestioningly as proof of his guilt in every single case? I was worried when i heard on the radio the other day that these allegations all confirm that Savile was a serial abuser. I have to say, no they don't! Not one of them has been substantiated or proven in a court of law. Just because he did it 50 times does not prove he did it the 51st, however likely or 'par for the course' it may be.
I could phone the Daily Star on Monday and tell them that Savile fingered my cat and it would be front page proof of his deviant nature on Tuesday.
How is that right in a society where innocence is presumed until the guilty verdict is read out?
It's happened with them all, and most recently with that young lad at Oxford University accused or rape and his reputation destroyed well in advance of the case being thrown out of court.
If Savile were alive most of these cases may well be proven but I have a feeling that an awful lot of them would be thrown out totally.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
I have a concern about that too. When the whole abuse in the church thing broke here and it transpired that there might be compensation into the future for past crimes, there was a rash of accusations from people. Undoubtedly some of these were true, but a significant number were not. I know it is cynical (and possibly dangerous to the genuine victims to say it) but there was a bit of a cash wagon mentality. It still goes on with the Residential Redress Scheme here.
What bothers me the most though is the rush in cases like this to find someone or a group of people at which to lay the blame. Sometimes it appears that there is a mad rush to lay the blame at just about anyones feet rather than the perpetrator of the crimes. He did the damn things, he was evil and he dupped a hell of a lot of people, and I do wonder if the rush (in this and other cases) to blame someone; anyone, is actually more to do with the anger at having been taken in by the person and the feeling that it 'should have been spotted'.
[ 28. June 2014, 11:15: Message edited by: fletcher christian ]
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Of course he was an abuser, of course he was creepy and sexually deviant.
BUT
I am increasingly worried by the rise of guiolt because of accusation. Why are all these allegations taken unquestioningly as proof of his guilt in every single case? I was worried when i heard on the radio the other day that these allegations all confirm that Savile was a serial abuser. I have to say, no they don't! Not one of them has been substantiated or proven in a court of law. Just because he did it 50 times does not prove he did it the 51st, however likely or 'par for the course' it may be.
I could phone the Daily Star on Monday and tell them that Savile fingered my cat and it would be front page proof of his deviant nature on Tuesday.
How is that right in a society where innocence is presumed until the guilty verdict is read out?
It's happened with them all, and most recently with that young lad at Oxford University accused or rape and his reputation destroyed well in advance of the case being thrown out of court.
If Savile were alive most of these cases may well be proven but I have a feeling that an awful lot of them would be thrown out totally.
Yes, the cases might be thrown out of criminal court, and rightly so. But I don't really think there is any moral problem with false accusations against Jimmy Savile at this point, apart from doing a technical disservice to the historical record.
Is is an accepted fact that Jimmy Savile sexually abused children. As such, he no longer has a reputation to protect. You could pretty much say anything you want about the guy, and it's not going to lower anyone's opinion of him, because it would be almost impossible for anyone's opinion to get any lower.
If a history prof told his class that the Nazis ran death-camps in Norway, I'd think he was highly unprofessional, and might even report him to the department(or otherwise try to publicize his misguided teachings). But I would not walk out of class thinking "Aw gee, that guy was accusing the Nazis of stuff they never did. That's not right!"
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
It makes a difference if you then prosecute the local vet for not spotting that cat fingering.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
It makes a difference if you then prosecute the local vet for not spotting that cat fingering.
That is a point.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by opaWim:
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
Something I have wondered, but I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask -
Jimmy Savile almost died as a small boy. His mother prayed to Margaret Sinclair, a nun who had died not long before, and Savile's recovery was credited to her. This healing was part of the reason she became the Venerable Margaret Sinclair.
Oliver James doesn't mention it, but growing up knowing that he had been miraculously healed and that his healing was part of the grounds for considering canonisation for Margaret Sinclair - could that not have contributed to his narcissism?
I doubt it.
Does Jimmy Savile strike you as someone who took the/his R.C. faith particularly seriously?
Yes - he went to mass daily at Leeds cathedral.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Among the complexities of Savile is that of dealing with a someone capable of being both a devout Christian and committing those atrocities. The Church (from Orthodox to extreme Protestant) does itself no favours when it forgets that this sort of people can and do exist. Savile just happened to be RC, he could have been any other colour of believer.
Jengie
[ 28. June 2014, 18:20: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
My point wasn't whether Savile was a devout RC or not, it was the impact of growing up surrounded by people who believed he had been miraculously healed by divine intervention at age 2. This was a healing which led in part to Margaret Sinclair (Sister Mary Francis of the Five Wounds) becoming the Venerable Margaret Sinclair in 1978.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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opaWim
Shipmate
# 11137
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Yes - he went to mass daily at Leeds cathedral.
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
I honestly didn't see that coming.
The hubris required to be able to combine attending mass daily, and presumably receiving Communion, with habitual sexual abuse of minors and inmates of a psychiatric hospital, stretches my imagination to the point of disbelief.
Which is pretty naive of me. The sad knowledge that there were, and probably still are, substantial numbers of priests who combine presiding at mass with habitual sexual abuse should have prepared me.
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It's the Thirties all over again, possibly even worse.
Posts: 524 | From: The Marshes | Registered: Mar 2006
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Opawim
Look up Compartmentalization (sorry bit.ly as wikipedia not being friendly). I really believe this is a lot more common than most people think. I am not sure that it was the case with Savile, but it would not surprise me if it was. What it would mean is the Savile who went to Mass really did not think of himself as the Savile who abused children.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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opaWim
Shipmate
# 11137
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Posted
Jengie Jon
I am aware of Compartmentalization.
I am aware of the temptation to use it, and FWIW consider myself morally obligated to resist that temptation as far as possible.
However I am not convinced that this was the case with Savile.
He could just as likely have attended daily mass as part of the smokescreen that afforded him access to his victims and made him immune to scrutiny.
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It's the Thirties all over again, possibly even worse.
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
I wonder if the 'uneducated' public with limited language resources are not helping.
Remember the paediatrician who was attacked because some local low-IQ mob thought he was a paedophile..?
Anyway, I wonder if some people are using the term 'abuse' incorrectly.
I listened to a woman on the radio when the whole Savile stuff came out and she sincerely spoke about how she 'saw' Jimmy Savile abuse a child in a hospital ward and everybody saw it happen (!!)
My response was, "Seriously?? What was he doing that was covered by the term 'sexual abuse' and could be watched by all the patients in the other beds, all their visitors, all the nursing staff and anyone else in that room? What was so serious that it could be categorised as child abuse, seen by all those people and still not reported and, ecven more shocking, not commented on at the time by anyone and certainly not stopped there and then?
The child abuse scenario here, to my mind is so unlikely as to make me wonder what word this woman should have used and actually what did she see that she reckoned was child abuse but was evidently not seen as such by the many people in the room?
Just because an accusation is made it does not make it so!
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
(The paediatrician was a woman.)
[ 28. June 2014, 22:49: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I listened to a woman on the radio when the whole Savile stuff came out and she sincerely spoke about how she 'saw' Jimmy Savile abuse a child in a hospital ward and everybody saw it happen (!!)
My guess would be fleeting touch to the bottom, groin or breast, then it all becomes a question of angles and interpretation.
If someone brushes past you, does it look/feel accidental or intentional - and what it looks like may very with the angle at which you see the encounter.
I knew a guy who didn't realise he had been sexually assaulted until he was teaching on the subject to our seminar group. He said he had been groped by a male orderly when he was sick in hospital as a child, and until that point he had not really reflected on what had happened to him. Just stuck it the box of other unpleasant things in hospital, like pain and having to wear a backless gown etc.
[ 28. June 2014, 22:56: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by opaWim:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Yes - he went to mass daily at Leeds cathedral.
I honestly didn't see that coming.
The hubris required to be able to combine attending mass daily, and presumably receiving Communion, with habitual sexual abuse of minors and inmates of a psychiatric hospital, stretches my imagination to the point of disbelief.
Which is pretty naive of me. The sad knowledge that there were, and probably still are, substantial numbers of priests who combine presiding at mass with habitual sexual abuse should have prepared me.
It doesn't surprise me. Many people are able to compartmentalize to a varying degree; you could even argue that we all do it.
After all, many children are abused by their parents, who you might think would see that as incompatible with being a parent.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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