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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Hospitality and Dress Codes
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
Over in All Saints, I mentioned that I am planning to tell my wedding guests that I don’t want women to come dressed in black. This is generating some discussion that I think would probably be better suited over here.
Our invitations are going to include a practical information sheet (directions, hotels, bla bla… and also the dress code. “Elegant, ladies no black please.”) My reason for not wanting black dress is simple: I’m old-fashioned ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) . I was brought up to think that black is for funerals. Turning up at a wedding dressed in black = saying “I’m as happy about this event as I would be if you were dead” and is consequently Rude™. I know that black has become very fashionable of late in some quarters but I really don’t like it and would very much prefer not to see it at my own wedding. I also don’t want to see a sea of black on our photos.
The reason we are only asking women is mostly pragmatism. TBH I would prefer for men not to be in black either, but I am aware that a lot of men only own one suit, and buying another one is an expensive business. OTOH, at a recent wedding I attended, I counted no less than 4 women in little black dresses, and (since I am fairly well acquainted with most of them) I know for a fact that they own other (coloured) dresses, or could easily borrow one from a friend. If they preferred to buy another one (which is a shopping opportunity for those who like that kind of thing), it would be less expensive for them than it would be for men to buy a new suit. Also if men are wearing a black suit, they usually have a white shirt/coloured tie, so it’s not all over funereal black from head to toe.
But beyond that, what I am wondering about is the general question of imposing a dress code on an event like a wedding. Personally I think that at one’s own wedding, it’s ok to ask people not to behave in a way that one finds rude. If I was specifically asked to dress in black for a wedding, I would bite my tongue and do it, even though I personally don’t like it. I think respect goes two ways – the host does their best to make sure their guests have a good time, but guests respect the sensibilities of their hosts. It’s my view that a wedding with no alcohol is a sad affair, but if the happy couple are strict teetotallers, it’s up to me to suck it up. They are showing me a good time by their own lights. To me, hospitality/inviting someone to an event, especially an event as important as a wedding, doesn’t mean letting them do anything they like.
I also don’t really buy “you should let people come as themselves”. Aside the fact that I don’t have any friends who never wear anything but black*, all outfits are not appropriate in all situations IMO. My employer imposes a dress code on me which I follow as a condition of my job. Much as I love my red Nike sneakers, I wouldn’t turn up to a formal event in them. In the same way, I think it’s allowable to define what is and isn’t an appropriate way to dress at a wedding, and the choice ultimately lies with the people getting married.
I’m not planning to be Bridezilla on the whole. It’s just this one point that is important to me.
Anyway, where is the line between being a good host, and organising an event the way you want it to be?
*My one friend who most regularly dresses in black is my best friend the professional fashionista. As it turns out, she feels even more strongly than I do about black at weddings and is proud of me for Taking A Stand™ on this crucial sartorial point ![[Biased]](wink.gif) .
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Rent my holiday home in the South of France
Posts: 3696 | Registered: Nov 2005
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M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291
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Posted
I just wrote a long reply and lost it - gah! It came down to 'your do, your rules (within reason)'.
M.
Posts: 2303 | From: Lurking in Surrey | Registered: Sep 2002
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Hmm. I don't quite get the "wearing black is something I associate with funerals therefore..." reasoning - it seems to imply an intent on the wearer to say "I’m as happy about this event as I would be if you were dead", which of course is almost certainly absent in the wearer's mind - it might be what you'd mean if you wore black, but it isn't what they mean, and therefore I cannot see how it's in any way rude. Rudeness is intentional.
It's your wedding, of course, but the general point of "don't assume people mean by something what you'd mean by it" is an important one.
But then I don't understand dress codes, the idea of appropriateness and so on. I cannot for the life of me understand why I can't turn up at work in trainers and T-shirt, I know I can't, but it seems an utterly stupid rule to me and I always wish the entire human race would lighten up and stop having these arbitrary and illogical expectations.
/rant
[ 02. July 2014, 09:50: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
La vie, I agree with you. I'm sure there are none of your female friends whose only smart clothes are black.
Even without the funeral implications, do your friends really want to look like a gaggle of solicitors meeting after work - or I suppose that should be notaires, or isn't that how lady notaires dress?
I also agree with your point about men's suits.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Have to say that I seldom notice what people are wearing, except for reasons that Jesus might have been alluding to when he talked about adultery of the mind...
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Meant to add; missed edit windo: Just as a thought experiment, how would you feel if you received a wedding invitation from a pair of heavy metal fans who insisted that everyone come in either cargo shorts or tight black jeans, and a T-shirt either black or emblazoned with the name of a rock band? I'm just sort of trying to see how far the "ultimately up to the couple themselves" goes
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
"Dear friends and family, we are getting married by the Archdruid of Britain on the top of Glastonbury Tor at sunrise on June 21st 2015. Dress: skyclad."
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
I think an insistence on a certain dress code is probably unreasonable - if the couple are SF fans, then it might be reasonable for the main participants to dress up in SF costumes, and it might be acceptable to suggest that guests might like to follow this example, But not to insist on it. Insisting on it is for a fancy dress party, not a wedding (or other similar do - funerals, baptisms etc have the same issues).
Requesting people not to wear black seems fair, but could be seen as a negative comment. I would have suggested that a more positive wording - so maybe request that men requested to wear something green, and women something orange* (if appropriate). It makes it a positive request, and can be understood as a way of getting interesting and consistent photos. It seems like a fun and interesting thing to do, rather than a restriction, although the effect is the same.
Dress codes do suck though. Where what you like, cover up your genitalia, stop pretending that it makes a difference.
*As we know, Orange is the new Black
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
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take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Lucia
Looking for light
# 15201
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Meant to add; missed edit windo: Just as a thought experiment, how would you feel if you received a wedding invitation from a pair of heavy metal fans who insisted that everyone come in either cargo shorts or tight black jeans, and a T-shirt either black or emblazoned with the name of a rock band? I'm just sort of trying to see how far the "ultimately up to the couple themselves" goes
Personally, I'd probably roll my eyes somewhat but I'd give it a go if that was what they really wanted (as long as I didn't feel indecently dressed in what was being requested). After all I probably wouldn't be the only one feeling a bit daft in such a get up but for me I would just have to think of it as "fancy dress"! It would certainly be an unusual look for me to try...
But I think asking for people to avoid one colour is a long way along the spectrum from asking people to dress in a particular way. Not wearing black is only a very small restriction, where as telling people what they should wear is much more defining and potentially uncomfortable.
I don't see any problem with requesting a dress code if it matters to you. You are the host and surely those who care about you will not be wanting to come dressed in a way that will irritate you. By telling people what you would like you give them the opportunity respond, where as without the dress code they would have no idea that you didn't want people wearing black at your wedding. Giving people the knowledge gives people the opportunity to say either "yes, I'd like to do what will contribute to the happiness of the day" or to say "stuff that, even though it's her wedding it's more important to me that I get to wear what I like". However you may want to reconsider including people in the latter group on your guest list...
[ 02. July 2014, 10:28: Message edited by: Lucia ]
Posts: 1075 | From: Nigh golden stone and spires | Registered: Oct 2009
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Meant to add; missed edit windo: Just as a thought experiment, how would you feel if you received a wedding invitation from a pair of heavy metal fans who insisted that everyone come in either cargo shorts or tight black jeans, and a T-shirt either black or emblazoned with the name of a rock band? I'm just sort of trying to see how far the "ultimately up to the couple themselves" goes
In that case there is another alternative: don't go.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
"Dear friends and family, we are getting married by the Archdruid of Britain on the top of Glastonbury Tor at sunrise on June 21st 2015. Dress: skyclad."
I'll be there. Expect cloudy skies.
Karl - it's semiotics. All about signs and what people are signalling to each other. Usually dress codes can be pretty arbitrary, but that's just because they are intended to block off the more enthusiastic signallers from doing something others deem inappropriate. And that can be for perfectly valid reasons such as safety.
Conversely, some people either refuse to do any such signalling, or the whole thing is lost on them. Maybe this describes you? I can't see it being problematic unless you expect everyone else to be like you which sounds unlikely.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
"Dear friends and family, we are getting married by the Archdruid of Britain on the top of Glastonbury Tor at sunrise on June 21st 2015. Dress: skyclad."
I'll be there. Expect cloudy skies.
Karl - it's semiotics. All about signs and what people are signalling to each other. Usually dress codes can be pretty arbitrary, but that's just because they are intended to block off the more enthusiastic signallers from doing something others deem inappropriate. And that can be for perfectly valid reasons such as safety.
Conversely, some people either refuse to do any such signalling, or the whole thing is lost on them. Maybe this describes you? I can't see it being problematic unless you expect everyone else to be like you which sounds unlikely.
Your third paragraph probably does describe me, in the "lost on them" category. Your second appears to be using English words but conveys very little. Could you unpack it? What would be "inappropriate"? Why does wearing particular clothes stop it happening? What's being signalled? It's like another world...
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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GCabot
Shipmate
# 18074
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Posted
I think you are well within your rights to specify a dress code. If you were requesting something decidedly out of the ordinary, then perhaps you would want to think twice. Specifying no black, however, is merely explicitly stating what is normally inferred with such a dress code.
In my experience, guests often appreciate this sort of clear direction. It is far worse to have them attempt to guess what they should wear. Furthermore, if you do have certain expectations regarding attire, this preempts your otherwise disappointment when someone shows up in something completely inappropriate.
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The child that is born unto us is more than a prophet; for this is he of whom the Savior saith: "Among them that are born of woman, there hath not risen one greater than John the Baptist."
Posts: 285 | From: The Heav'n Rescued Land | Registered: Apr 2014
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lucia:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Meant to add; missed edit windo: Just as a thought experiment, how would you feel if you received a wedding invitation from a pair of heavy metal fans who insisted that everyone come in either cargo shorts or tight black jeans, and a T-shirt either black or emblazoned with the name of a rock band? I'm just sort of trying to see how far the "ultimately up to the couple themselves" goes
Personally, I'd probably roll my eyes somewhat but I'd give it a go if that was what they really wanted (as long as I didn't feel indecently dressed in what was being requested). After all I probably wouldn't be the only one feeling a bit daft in such a get up but for me I would just have to think of it as "fancy dress"!
That's how I cope with having to wear a suit. I hope that doesn't happen in the near future as I'm not sure I currently own one.
DJs and bats around throats is whole other level of "why does anyone want to wear this, and why are you trying to make me do so?"...
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
Having just been to a couple of weddings after a very long gap (friends are either already married or not looking to get married), dress code may well read "Men: suits. Women: something that isn't going to put the vicar's eye out." I don't know. Formalwear seems to have changed from when I was a lad...
But less tongue-in-cheek: I've been to a couple of funerals recently that did say, "wear something colourful", which I was happy to do. But my mother wore black to my wedding, and meh, it's not like anyone was looking at her (or me, for that matter). All I had to remember to do was turn up and make sure the label wasn't still stuck to the bottom of my shoes.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Karl: quote:
Just as a thought experiment, how would you feel if you received a wedding invitation from a pair of heavy metal fans who insisted that everyone come in either cargo shorts or tight black jeans, and a T-shirt either black or emblazoned with the name of a rock band?
I think la vie en rouge already covered this situation in the OP, when she said: quote:
If I was specifically asked to dress in black for a wedding, I would bite my tongue and do it, even though I personally don’t like it.
Doc Tor, nobody in their right mind would get married at sunrise without any clothes on in the UK. Not even in summer. Have you ever been awake that early? They'd catch their death of cold.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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chive
Ship's nude
# 208
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Posted
I was at a funeral recently and I was shocked at what people wore. The family of the deceased wore black, myself and the friends I went with wore black but everyone else just seemed to wear whatever. This included someone who wore trackie bottoms and a tshirt. Surely its not hard to follow the general rules and wear black to a funeral? (That's unless the family specifically ask for something else which is fine). To turn up in any old thing seems disrespectful.
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'Edward was the kind of man who thought there was no such thing as a lesbian, just a woman who hadn't done one-to-one Bible study with him.' Catherine Fox, Love to the Lost
Posts: 3542 | From: the cupboard under the stairs | Registered: May 2001
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
Dress codes are a kind of social literacy. They say: 'I know about these people/this situation - the expectations and customs. I can manage my interaction gracefully.'
The tension sets in because of the move, in the last 100 years, from the primacy of social conformity to that of individual choice. You get those people who are black affronted at any suggestion that that infringes their sacred right to Be Themselves right through to those for whom a misplaced button identifies you as a social dreg to be despised.
To my mind, the aim is always to wear what makes me feel good in the situation - which may include a calculation of what will please the company I am with. So LVER's invite would not bother me in the least - though is she wanted to spin it slightly, she could word it as 'I would love my wedding to be a colourful affair - wear your brightest and best and, please, no black dresses!'
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
Requesting people not to wear black seems fair, but could be seen as a negative comment. I would have suggested that a more positive wording - so maybe request that men requested to wear something green, and women something orange* (if appropriate). It makes it a positive request, and can be understood as a way of getting interesting and consistent photos. It seems like a fun and interesting thing to do, rather than a restriction, although the effect is the same.
It isn't the same, though. Saying people shouldn't wear black, when you know all the guests possess non-black clothes, isn't placing an imposition on anyone, because everyone can follow that prohibition without incurring expense.
Conversely, saying everyone must wear green forces people to buy green clothes if they don't have any.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Jen.
Godless Liberal
# 3131
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Posted
I've been reading the thread in All saints but didn't feel I had much to add to the conversation whilst it was in that location.
I'm someone who wears black, pretty much predominantly. A combination of shocking colour sense (with regard to what goes with what), a hatred of shopping (which means a small wardrobe asking that everything must go with everything else) and being an ex goth caused this.
My smart dress (yes, singular) is black. I have worn it to weddings. I have always checked with the bride first and this never seems to have been a problem, but they were probably just being polite.
If I got a wedding invite which asked me not to wear black, I'd do similar, LVER, roll my eyes and get on with it. If I was asked to wear something I very much objected to (Skyclad would probably fall into this category) I may choose not to attend - but obviously this wouldn't be a decision I'd make lightly, and probably only after a discussion with the bride and groom.
Although 'Don't wear black' would make me unhappy and uncomfortable, if its not my do, it's not my choice. At our wedding there was no dress code, The only people I cared about the dress of was me, the bridesmaids, the groom and groomsmen - everyone else could wear what they damn well pleased, but that was my wedding and my choice.
I think a similar issue is that of whether you allow children at your wedding. A few people I know chose not to have children at their wedding as it didn't fit what they wanted for the day. This, obviously, didn't bother some people but made attending the wedding difficult for others. I know people were offended as well ('but my little Timmy is so well behaved...' etc)
My point, I guess, is that creating rules (be they dress code, whether you can take your kids or not, or whatever) will potentially limit who can, or wants to, attend your wedding (or do of any kind). In the end, you may find you need to make a decision about what matters more: that your friend/family member is there or that they're dressed right.
Jen
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Was Jenny Ann, but fancied being more minimal.
Posts: 5318 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Aug 2002
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
Karl wrote- quote:
...Your second appears to be using English words but conveys very little. Could you unpack it? What would be "inappropriate"? Why does wearing particular clothes stop it happening? What's being signalled? It's like another world...
I'll try and give it a go, Karl, but it will take more time than I've got immediately. Maybe later this pm (I hope)?
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
Plenty of people ask for 'no black' at funerals, so why not weddings too.
It would be fine by me.
Mr Boogs golf club has dreadful dress codes, follow them and you look a right prat! His mates and him are mounting a take over of the board - then the dress codes will be changed completely! (For example, if you wear sandals you have to wear socks - bleugh!)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
Given I'm in my early 30s and seem to spend every weekend going to weddings can I interject and say that I now own my own morning dress - that being the specified male dress on the majority of wedding invites I receive.
I don't know if it's because tradition is back in a big way (could be, the "suit" weddings were a couple of years ago), or just the people I know.
I was spending a fortune at Moss Bros on hiring before I cracked.
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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Lucia
Looking for light
# 15201
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
What would be "inappropriate"? Why does wearing particular clothes stop it happening? What's being signalled? It's like another world...
LVER expressed this in her OP.
quote:
My reason for not wanting black dress is simple: I’m old-fashioned. I was brought up to think that black is for funerals. Turning up at a wedding dressed in black = saying “I’m as happy about this event as I would be if you were dead” and is consequently Rude™.
So in fact this is all about signalling. She has not said she dislikes black clothing in all situations. However because of her cultural background, to LVER black dress signals funeral and mourning in particular settings, perhaps particularly in a church setting. This is inappropriate because for her the signal says "I am not happy about this event". She may well know that is not the intent of the person but our reactions to signals are not always at the rational level, in fact I suspect they often aren't.
You could say the same about dress code requirements in some work places. For some people someone being dressed a certain way, and neatly presented signals "I can make an effort, I can give attention to detail, I am willing to do what is asked of me" all of which may be signals of things which are valued in that workplace situation. In other workplaces where there is no particular dress code it may be that creativity and individuality are more valued and are signaled by more individual choices of clothes.
Many people do sub-consciously pick up on signals from dress, body language and behaviour which are incorporated into how they react to events and people. These reactions are probably based on a combination of our prior experiences and inbuilt instincts. But there are some people who do not seem to pick up on these signals so much (and for some it creates social difficulties because they are missing the unspoken clues). I guess for those who do not have the same reactions to these signals it must seem rather strange.
Posts: 1075 | From: Nigh golden stone and spires | Registered: Oct 2009
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daisydaisy
Shipmate
# 12167
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Posted
Reading "no black" on an invitation is like a red rag to a bull for me - suddenly the only decent item of clothing I could possibly wear would be black.
So I go with Schroedinger's cat on this one - state the request with a positive twist (something colourful or happy) and it might get the creativity going.
As a back-up, might it be possible to provide really bright corsages (or similar, maybe colourful shawls?) for anyone arriving in the forbidden colour?
Posts: 3184 | From: southern uk | Registered: Dec 2006
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
Given I'm in my early 30s and seem to spend every weekend going to weddings can I interject and say that I now own my own morning dress - that being the specified male dress on the majority of wedding invites I receive.
I don't know if it's because tradition is back in a big way (could be, the "suit" weddings were a couple of years ago), or just the people I know.
I was spending a fortune at Moss Bros on hiring before I cracked.
You see, what seems rude and inconsiderate to me is expecting guests to spend a fortune on hiring or buying expensive formal clothing.
But I'm weird, it seems.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lucia:
You could say the same about dress code requirements in some work places. For some people someone being dressed a certain way, and neatly presented signals "I can make an effort, I can give attention to detail, I am willing to do what is asked of me" ...I guess for those who do not have the same reactions to these signals it must seem rather strange.
Indeed. What I pick up from being dressed in a suit and so on is "I am ambitious, superior and think I'm more important than you scruffy low life and I'll ingratiate myself with you just enough to screw you, you unimportant little person."
Again, through my life experiences and so on.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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GCabot
Shipmate
# 18074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daisydaisy:
Reading "no black" on an invitation is like a red rag to a bull for me - suddenly the only decent item of clothing I could possibly wear would be black.
So I go with Schroedinger's cat on this one - state the request with a positive twist (something colourful or happy) and it might get the creativity going.
As a back-up, might it be possible to provide really bright corsages (or similar, maybe colourful shawls?) for anyone arriving in the forbidden colour?
Exactly why would you feel the compulsion to do the complete opposite of what the inviter has requested? If you are that offended, then politely decline the invitation. Otherwise, that is just petty behavior.
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The child that is born unto us is more than a prophet; for this is he of whom the Savior saith: "Among them that are born of woman, there hath not risen one greater than John the Baptist."
Posts: 285 | From: The Heav'n Rescued Land | Registered: Apr 2014
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GCabot
Shipmate
# 18074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
Given I'm in my early 30s and seem to spend every weekend going to weddings can I interject and say that I now own my own morning dress - that being the specified male dress on the majority of wedding invites I receive.
I don't know if it's because tradition is back in a big way (could be, the "suit" weddings were a couple of years ago), or just the people I know.
I was spending a fortune at Moss Bros on hiring before I cracked.
You see, what seems rude and inconsiderate to me is expecting guests to spend a fortune on hiring or buying expensive formal clothing.
But I'm weird, it seems.
I suppose you also object to expecting guests to pay for wedding gifts or travel expenses as well?
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The child that is born unto us is more than a prophet; for this is he of whom the Savior saith: "Among them that are born of woman, there hath not risen one greater than John the Baptist."
Posts: 285 | From: The Heav'n Rescued Land | Registered: Apr 2014
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daisydaisy
Shipmate
# 12167
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by GCabot:
quote:
Originally posted by daisydaisy:
Reading "no black" on an invitation is like a red rag to a bull for me - suddenly the only decent item of clothing I could possibly wear would be black.
So I go with Schroedinger's cat on this one - state the request with a positive twist (something colourful or happy) and it might get the creativity going.
As a back-up, might it be possible to provide really bright corsages (or similar, maybe colourful shawls?) for anyone arriving in the forbidden colour?
Exactly why would you feel the compulsion to do the complete opposite of what the inviter has requested? If you are that offended, then politely decline the invitation. Otherwise, that is just petty behavior.
Purely rebellion - I love wearing colour. I would, of course, be as colourful as the invitation requested.
Posts: 3184 | From: southern uk | Registered: Dec 2006
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M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291
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Posted
Good grief. Your friends have been kind enough to invite you to join them to celebrate possibly the biggest day of their lives. Do them the honour of this simple thing, complying with what they want by way of dress. If it would put you in severe financial embarrassment, then talk to them about it. All parties will find out just how great their friendship is.
If you really can't bear to wear something you wouldn't usually, then, as GCabot says, politely decline to attend. I'm sure they will bear your absence with equanimity.
M.
Posts: 2303 | From: Lurking in Surrey | Registered: Sep 2002
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daisydaisy
Shipmate
# 12167
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Posted
As I said, I love wearing colour and would, of course, be as colourful as the invitation requested.
Posts: 3184 | From: southern uk | Registered: Dec 2006
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by GCabot:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
Given I'm in my early 30s and seem to spend every weekend going to weddings can I interject and say that I now own my own morning dress - that being the specified male dress on the majority of wedding invites I receive.
I don't know if it's because tradition is back in a big way (could be, the "suit" weddings were a couple of years ago), or just the people I know.
I was spending a fortune at Moss Bros on hiring before I cracked.
You see, what seems rude and inconsiderate to me is expecting guests to spend a fortune on hiring or buying expensive formal clothing.
But I'm weird, it seems.
I suppose you also object to expecting guests to pay for wedding gifts or travel expenses as well?
Wedding gifts can be tailored according to the pocket of the guest; travel expenses are unavoidable. Being required to spend a fortune at Moss Bros is completely unnecessary.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
FWIW, I'm not sure anyone here's saying they wouldn't comply. There are just some of us who don't grep why someone would want these restrictions. I know LVER has explained her reasoning, but there's a real gut level on which I just don't "get" it.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Vaticanchic
Shipmate
# 13869
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Posted
It's only really acceptable to specify Morning Dress/Uniforms, Evening Dress, medals/decorations - tell me much else, I probably wouldn't come.
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"Sink, Burn or Take Her a Prize"
Posts: 697 | From: UK | Registered: Jul 2008
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GCabot
Shipmate
# 18074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
FWIW, I'm not sure anyone here's saying they wouldn't comply. There are just some of us who don't grep why someone would want these restrictions. I know LVER has explained her reasoning, but there's a real gut level on which I just don't "get" it.
One of my cousins decided to get married on a Pacific island, even though pretty much all of our family lives in the States. One of my friend's wedding registry was completely full of junk I would never otherwise have thought of buying for someone in a million years. In both cases, I certainly did not "get" their decisions. That, however, is not the point. The wedding is the couple's day and one should try and respect their wishes. A dress code is no different.
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The child that is born unto us is more than a prophet; for this is he of whom the Savior saith: "Among them that are born of woman, there hath not risen one greater than John the Baptist."
Posts: 285 | From: The Heav'n Rescued Land | Registered: Apr 2014
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by GCabot:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
FWIW, I'm not sure anyone here's saying they wouldn't comply. There are just some of us who don't grep why someone would want these restrictions. I know LVER has explained her reasoning, but there's a real gut level on which I just don't "get" it.
One of my cousins decided to get married on a Pacific island, even though pretty much all of our family lives in the States. One of my friend's wedding registry was completely full of junk I would never otherwise have thought of buying for someone in a million years. In both cases, I certainly did not "get" their decisions. That, however, is not the point. The wedding is the couple's day and one should try and respect their wishes. A dress code is no different.
Well yes and all that, but aren't you at least curious as to what makes some people tick when it's so alien to the way you think? And isn't it merely human to get a bit frustrated at requirements that make as much sense to you as "Oh, and come with a kipper hanging from your codpiece. You are all wearing codpieces, of course."
We wanted a mediaeval banquet for our reception. We didn't because we thought it unreasonable and inconsiderate to put everyone to the expense and/or inconvenience of obtaining mediaeval dress, not to mention making them feel silly.
[ 02. July 2014, 13:09: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
it might be what you'd mean if you wore black, but it isn't what they mean, and therefore I cannot see how it's in any way rude. Rudeness is intentional.
I don't think that's true. I occasionally while in the depths of thought walk through a door someone else is holding open without registering that's what happening. Intentional? No. Rude? Absolutely. I'm quite in the wrong.
Rudeness is not caring about other people's reactions. Whether that's through negligence, weakness, or someone's own deliberate fault, it's still not caring.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
The bit I don't really get about the OP is the idea that you'll particularly notice on your wedding day what anyone except you and your beloved and maybe some of the wedding party are wearing - unless someone really does come in fancy dress, which seems unlikely.
Clothing memories from my wedding:
- my dad is an individualist, so his morning dress didn't match anyone else's - he had a blue waistcoat with gold fleur de lys on, and a bright yellow buttonhole. But then, he was paying for it, and he looked great.
my brother's and his best mate's trousers had been adjusted to the wrong lengths, so we had to put them right the night before.
- my brother's girlfriend had shortened her dress, but had guesstimated a couple of inches too short; when she and my brother stood up to read the bidding prayers they looked more like they were about to announce the Oscars.
- my mother in-law wore a lovely peacock green - she had to ask my father in law to *paint* her white shoes in order to match the colour.
- one well-to-do friend wore *his own* morning dress!
Apart from that....there might have been some elaborate saris and shalwars, but I really don't remember.
Oh yeah - I looked fantastic.
It was a great day. Does it really matter?
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
I think I would be a bit shocked to receive such an invitation. Surely it doesn't matter if a few ladies turn up wearing black. In my experience, only two or three will anyway unless they are all Greek widows. I would be more offended if someone turned up looking as they they had just been painting the house or weeding the garden. There is a certain customary expectation that people will make an effort to appeared tidily dressed for a special occasion. I would much rather someone came to the wedding in a smart black dress than in dirty torn jeans and a plunging neckline.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Vaticanchic:
It's only really acceptable to specify Morning Dress/Uniforms, Evening Dress, medals/decorations.
Exactly. This is actually also "old fashioned" etiquette. In the good old days everyone knew women didn't wear black (or white) to weddings. And everyone knew that one didn't put dress codes (other than the above) in invitations. It Wasn't Done. So you didn't do it.
I guess if the whole world has thrown out their old copies of Emily Post, so can you, la vie en rouge. It's an etiquette stand-off.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
it might be what you'd mean if you wore black, but it isn't what they mean, and therefore I cannot see how it's in any way rude. Rudeness is intentional.
I don't think that's true. I occasionally while in the depths of thought walk through a door someone else is holding open without registering that's what happening. Intentional? No. Rude? Absolutely. I'm quite in the wrong.
I'm not sure you are. It's just something that happens. I certainly wouldn't be offended if I thought someone just hadn't noticed.
quote:
Rudeness is not caring about other people's reactions. Whether that's through negligence, weakness, or someone's own deliberate fault, it's still not caring.
I'm not sure there's a "not caring" going on here; it'd not even cross my mind that (were I a woman and wore frocks to weddings) that'd they'd put LVER's interpretation on it, so there would not be in my mind anything for me to care about. I think rudeness requires a bit more than that. If I said "well, they might not like black but I don't care", that'd be one thing. But somehow thinking I should know and therefore be in a position to care is quite another.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Erroneous Monk: quote:
The bit I don't really get about the OP is the idea that you'll particularly notice on your wedding day what anyone except you and your beloved and maybe some of the wedding party are wearing - unless someone really does come in fancy dress, which seems unlikely.
It's probably more about the wedding pictures, I'd think.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
FWIW, I'm not sure anyone here's saying they wouldn't comply. There are just some of us who don't grep why someone would want these restrictions. I know LVER has explained her reasoning, but there's a real gut level on which I just don't "get" it.
You don't have to. You just have to comply.
I've been to plenty of events with dress codes, although I'd say there were more of them when I was younger. I've had it at birthdays reasonably frequently, and in fact I have a feeling I may have said something like 'smart casual' for my 21st.
I see no reason why you can't have it at a wedding. Whether they like it or not, in one sense guests are part of the decor. And if the bride and groom spend lots of time on choosing venues and the flowers and the table settings and all of that, I can't see why they can't express a preference as to the dressing style of the guests.
[ 02. July 2014, 13:34: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
FWIW, I'm not sure anyone here's saying they wouldn't comply. There are just some of us who don't grep why someone would want these restrictions. I know LVER has explained her reasoning, but there's a real gut level on which I just don't "get" it.
You don't have to. You just have to comply.
I've been to plenty of events with dress codes, although I'd say there were more of them when I was younger. I've had it at birthdays reasonably frequently, and in fact I have a feeling I may have said something like 'smart casual' for my 21st.
I see no reason why you can't have it at a wedding. Whether they like it or not, in one sense guests are part of the decor. And if the bride and groom spend lots of time on the flowers and the table settings and all of that, I can't see why they can't express a preference as to the dressing style of the guests.
I know I don't have to "get" it. But I want to. It irks me.
But it does appear that Mrs Backslider and I should have insisted on the mediaeval dress we wanted and bugger everyone else's expense and inconvenience. Or am I still not understanding?
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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The Intrepid Mrs S
Shipmate
# 17002
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Posted
I'm with LVER on this one.
We have in the past hosted 'themed' evenings with appropriate food and drink and costume - Indian, Greek, whatever - and invited our vicar and his wife to the Caribbean one. Mrs Vicar, a reader in her own write who was not awfully comfortable with the idea of fancy dress, came in a long dress with a flower in her hair, and wore a lei (garland of artificial flowers) round her neck. Job done.
In a sermon later, she alluded to this event as parallel with the parable of the wedding feast - 'these people have been to a lot of trouble, laid on a feast and entertainment, and all they ask of me is that I make an effort to dress appropriately'.
I think it's a shame when guests turn up to a wedding wearing what they picked up off the bedroom floor that morning, or in my MiL's immortal words, 'looking like a bundle of bagwash'. Whether the wedding is expensive or not, the couple will have been to a lot of trouble over it, and it behoves their guests to dress to suit the occasion. In this case, not in black. Is that such a big deal?
Mrs. S, thinking 'he who pays the piper ...'
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Don't get your knickers in a twist over your advancing age. It achieves nothing and makes you walk funny.
Prayer should be our first recourse, not our last resort
'Lord, please give us patience. NOW!'
Posts: 1464 | From: Neither here nor there | Registered: Mar 2012
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
But it does appear that Mrs Backslider and I should have insisted on the mediaeval dress we wanted and bugger everyone else's expense and inconvenience. Or am I still not understanding?
You were entirely free to insist on it. And people were entirely free to send their apologies that they would not be able to attend the blessed event. It's naive of you to think that the attendance at your wedding would have been exactly the same if you'd put everyone else to almost certain expense and inconvenience. People do weigh up the pros and cons of accepting invitations, you know.*
The odds that asking women not to wear black is going to put them to expense and inconvenience is, I would suggest, considerably lower.
*EDIT: The alternative is that large numbers of your guests would have consulted with other guests as to what they were doing in response to such an outlandish request, and would have colluded with each other to all turn up in normal clothes, confident that they had safety in numbers and wouldn't be singled out for ignoring you.
[ 02. July 2014, 13:51: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
And I don't think anyone's denied that; I think I have two points - 1. don't expect that everyone will understand why it matters to you, and 2. don't ascribe the "rudeness" that you'd be signalling (if I understand the concept correctly) by wearing black to other people who would wear black, because they're not trying to be rude at all and it's unfair to suggest they are.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
But it does appear that Mrs Backslider and I should have insisted on the mediaeval dress we wanted and bugger everyone else's expense and inconvenience. Or am I still not understanding?
You were entirely free to insist on it.
But that's the point. I didn't think we were. It seemed rude and inconsiderate, so we didn't do it.
I shall never understand this stuff as long as a live, I swear.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
And I don't think anyone's denied that; I think I have two points - 1. don't expect that everyone will understand why it matters to you, and 2. don't ascribe the "rudeness" that you'd be signalling (if I understand the concept correctly) by wearing black to other people who would wear black, because they're not trying to be rude at all and it's unfair to suggest they are.
Given that the OP was very much framed in terms of "I think" and "This is my opinion", your points seem a little moot.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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