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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Hospitality and Dress Codes
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Here, a lady is someone married to a lord. I am not a lady and have never pretended to be one.
And we don't have wedding showers here either.
That may all be true in Northampton (which I've never visited so I couldn't say), but not necessarily the rest of the UK.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Signaller:
Hiring a suit from Moss Bros will cost £55.
If that's too much trouble, or too much like showing off, middle-class English unspoken convention used to say that a man can turn up in a lounge suit, which he is expected to own as a matter of course. That sounds as though it may no longer be the case.
It's not that it's too much trouble, it's that £55 is a lot of money and isn't something I can just spend.
Does convention say what a man is allowed to do if he doesn't have £55 to throw away on one day's wear of a suit (I mean, that's half what a suit I get to keep for ever would cost!) and doesn't own a lounge suit? (What even is a "lounge suit"?)
I asked Mrs LB and she reckons requiring that sort of sartorial expense is off too.
Oxfam or borrow ?
(I am not sure why la vie thinks it is worse to ask women to borrow than men ![[Confused]](confused.gif) )
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Signaller
Shipmate
# 17495
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by GCabot:
quote:
Originally posted by Signaller:
I've worn a suit every working day since I was eleven years old. I'd feel very uncomfortable wearing casual clothes in that situation. YMMV, obviously.
Wait, you have been working since you were eleven-years-old? Is that not slightly illegal?
My school uniform was a grey suit. School = work. Must have been habit-forming (insert joke about monks, if required).
Posts: 113 | From: Metroland | Registered: Jan 2013
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Cathscats
Shipmate
# 17827
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Posted
In a similar vein when Mr Cathscats and I were married it was during the Balkan war. We didn't need a lot of furnishing or kitchenware, and we couldn't see others suffer while we got stuff we didn't want, so we asked the guests that if they were going to give a gifts, to make a donation to Bosnia instead. All of our friends got it and agreed, but a couple of my mothers friends (who were not invited, but wanted to give anyway) were very cross at the idea that anyone should suggest to them how they did their charitable giving..... They gave us silver photograph frames which we have never found a use for.
I would think that LVER should know her own friends well enough to know if her request is going to offend them!
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"...damp hands and theological doubts - the two always seem to go together..." (O. Douglas, "The Setons")
Posts: 176 | From: Central Highlands | Registered: Sep 2013
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Snags:
But I'll put the effort in for people I care about. I can't imagine being invited to a wedding for someone I didn't care about (or for whom Mrs Snags didn't care, so I do by extension, just with more grumbling). That's just polite.
The thing is, buying or hiring a lounge suit isn't "making an effort", it's just spending money.
FWIW I think there is a qualitative difference between requesting no black, which shouldn't be an imposition on anyone, and specifying that you have to wear a lounge suit, which is insisting people spend money that doesn't even do anything to offset the cost of the wedding.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Similarly, I was always taught that wedding lists or other gift requests were rude.
That was our instinct when we got married but the problem is that people actually *want* to give gifts, and given that we had around eighty guests people were also justifiably afraid of duplication. The wedding list is as much about your guests' convenience as your own rapaciousness.
(Although full disclosure, we were not actually organised enough to produce a list and just asked people for John Lewis vouchers. Also we got married on the cheap by virtue of hiring a church hall and importing huge amounts of stuff from Costco, so large presents were a little bit embarrassing insofar as they entailed making a profit on the guests.)
quote:
expecting guests to spend lots of money on travel without paying for a hotel room for them is also rude.
![[Eek!]](eek.gif) Unless you are thinking about people who get married on the beach in Mexico or Mauritius or wherever, in which case I wholeheartedly agree with you that this is selfish.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
IMO being a good host is putting your guests first [...] Etiquette is all about making guests feel comfortable
You see, this is precisely what I disagree with, at least if it's not balanced with something along the lines of "etiquette is respecting the sensibilities of the person hosting you". As I said before, I think these kinds of social events are not only for the benefit of the guests, who should have license to do as they like. They are a social contract, and there are expectations on both sides. There is such a thing as a good host, and there is also such a thing as a good guest.
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Rent my holiday home in the South of France
Posts: 3696 | Registered: Nov 2005
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by GCabot:
quote:
Originally posted by Signaller:
I've worn a suit every working day since I was eleven years old. I'd feel very uncomfortable wearing casual clothes in that situation. YMMV, obviously.
Wait, you have been working since you were eleven-years-old? Is that not slightly illegal?
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I think it is much ruder to impose a dress code on guests. My smart clothing is all black, and I think nowadays black is associated more with smartness and formality than funerals.
Similarly, I was always taught that wedding lists or other gift requests were rude. Presents are to be welcomed but not expected. Expecting guests to spend money on new clothes is definitely rude - IMO it means you're putting clothes above spending time with people you love, and expecting guests to spend lots of money on travel without paying for a hotel room for them is also rude.
IMO being a good host is putting your guests first - back when formal dress codes were expected, this was part of it, but nowadays insisting on a dress code does more inconvenience than convenience. Etiquette is all about making guests feel comfortable, and IMO nowadays a dress code does not do that with the exception of very formal events like meeting royalty.
This is pure nonsense. The social convention for weddings is quite clear, of which your notions are the antithesis. If you are so offended at the idea of having to spend anything on attending another's wedding, then just do not go. The wedding is about the couple getting married; it is not about you. The couple should not have to tailor their plans around your personal convenience, if that was even a tenable solution for every guest. You do understand that throwing a wedding itself is expensive, right? To expect the couple to pay for the entire wedding, all the personal expenses of the guests, and generally work their plans around your personal whims, is not only rude, it is downright arrogant, selfish, and offensive. Do you really think that little of your friends and family?
I am not offended at spending money on someone's wedding - it's forcing that spending of money that is rude.
Again, being a good host is about putting your guests first - and the bride and groom are hosts (or sometimes their parents). Yes, weddings can be expensive (though they don't need to be - a registery office ceremony followed by the pub is still a wedding), but if you want to invite guests then make sure you can afford to meet their needs. Inviting people without making sure that the wedding is accessible for them (physically and financially) is incredibly rude. I'm not talking about the hosts doing every single thing for the guests - simply that guests are properly catered for, and this includes avoiding things like dress codes that could cause problems.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Similarly, I was always taught that wedding lists or other gift requests were rude.
That was our instinct when we got married but the problem is that people actually *want* to give gifts, and given that we had around eighty guests people were also justifiably afraid of duplication. The wedding list is as much about your guests' convenience as your own rapaciousness.
(Although full disclosure, we were not actually organised enough to produce a list and just asked people for John Lewis vouchers. Also we got married on the cheap by virtue of hiring a church hall and importing huge amounts of stuff from Costco, so large presents were a little bit embarrassing insofar as they entailed making a profit on the guests.)
quote:
expecting guests to spend lots of money on travel without paying for a hotel room for them is also rude.
Unless you are thinking about people who get married on the beach in Mexico or Mauritius or wherever, in which case I wholeheartedly agree with you that this is selfish.
Sorry, I wasn't clear - by hotel rooms for guests travelling long-distance, I meant destination weddings eg a beach wedding in Mexico. Not just travelling from say Birmingham to Brighton. Hotel rooms would be necessary for travelling from say, NYC to LA I should imagine.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
IMO being a good host is putting your guests first [...] Etiquette is all about making guests feel comfortable
You see, this is precisely what I disagree with, at least if it's not balanced with something along the lines of "etiquette is respecting the sensibilities of the person hosting you". As I said before, I think these kinds of social events are not only for the benefit of the guests, who should have license to do as they like. They are a social contract, and there are expectations on both sides. There is such a thing as a good host, and there is also such a thing as a good guest.
This is a surprisingly interesting discussion.
I think you're both right. I think that a host's responsibility is entirely to put their guests first. I think a guest's responsibility is to behave appropriately towards their host, which at a wedding means remembering that you are there for them and to celebrate with them. If you have an idea about what they might like you not to wear, you would probably want to please them in that way.
I think, though, that each side simply has to trust the other and not try to manage them. I really dislike wedding present lists. I've never been told what I should wear, and even though I've worn a suit to every wedding I've ever attended, it would put my back up to get instructions about this.
Wearing morning suits at a wedding, if it's not something you wear from time to time on other occasions (and I don't know even one person who does), just seems like a rather sad aping of the rich. We who do not have servants and who have had to buy our own furniture should have a little more pride in ourselves and show who we are in the way we dress.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
I think I've worn black suit/jacket to weddings a few times, but with coloured top so to me that didn't register as black. A recent wedding I attended I wore something which was basically black with a bit of green. I did consider whether this was too much and then thought the bride and groom are goths-they are unlikely to be offended by black at a wedding! Can't remembere what I wore the the two weddings I've attended this year. Next one, I'm being an usher and am being provided with a pashmina or stole in wedding colour, so may well wear that over something basically black as that will go well with what the male ushers are likely to be wearing. Bride and groom seemed happy with this when I discussed it with them.
Weddings seem fraught with issues like this because they bring together people from a variety of social groups with different expectations, so relatives may well have different interpretations of clothing to friends etc. With geographic and social mobility customs are less likely to be shared.
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
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ecumaniac
Ship's whipping girl
# 376
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Posted
I travelled from the UK back home to Australia for a friend's wedding, and he told me that I was not expected to bring a gift. I replied, "Don't worry, I had no intention of doing so!". I did take the groom out to dinner a few days before though - on the actual day he would certainly be too busy for us to have a proper catch-up.
I wore a cotton white/flowery summery dress that was just over £100 from Monsoon - initially bought for a major birthday several years earlier. I also wore a giant fascinator that was part of my outfit. It was only halfway through the service that I realised I was the only person in the church with something on my head, apart from the Bride.
We don't do headgear in Australia for wedding guests. Not even the Mother of the Bride was wearing a hat... After 6 years in the UK I had forgotten this!
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it's a secret club for people with a knitting addiction, hiding under the cloak of BDSM - Catrine
Posts: 2901 | From: Cambridge | Registered: Jun 2001
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Rowen
Shipmate
# 1194
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Posted
Out in rural and remote Australia, i do country weddings.
Folk wear anything really, except hats!
The emphasis is on having a really good time....
So we do.
We are so unsophisticated.
Not rude. Just practical.
Try telling a farmer and his family, after decades of drought, and the recent terrible fires, that finding money for new clothes, as per the bride request, is a prerequisite for attending, and you would be booted out of town.
Many folk have no charity shops within four hours drive anyway.
[ 02. July 2014, 23:25: Message edited by: Rowen ]
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"May I live this day… compassionate of heart" (John O’Donoghue)...
Posts: 4897 | From: Somewhere cold in Victoria, Australia | Registered: Aug 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
All a bunch of you are saying is that you're not in the same millieu as our current bride, and that something wouldn't work in your context.
That seems obvious.
It also doesn't seem very relevant. Although I suppose, on one level, a thread like this is basically inviting "what would YOU do" responses. But to me it's just demonstrating that we are all over the place in terms of geographical location, age, what we were taught growing up, financial situation, social strata etc etc etc.
All of which affects how this request would be received and therefore whether it would be made. Ask a group of friends all of the same circle, rather than a bunch of people brought together by the internet, and you'd be far more likely to get a consistent response as to whether the request would be fine or a problem.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Wedding gifts can be tailored according to the pocket of the guest; travel expenses are unavoidable. Being required to spend a fortune at Moss Bros is completely unnecessary.
When Mrs. C and I were married, we didn't even think about specifying a dress code, although the style of the invitation carries some clues about the level of formality which will be the norm.
Lots of men wore morning dress, most of the rest wore lounge suits, and a couple wore a tie and sports jacket. I would have been surprised if anyone had turned up in jeans and a t-shirt, but wouldn't have thrown them out. I don't think most people bought or hired something new - I think most people selected the most appropriate wear from their existing wardrobes.
Of the women, most wore dresses (probably 50-50 with and without hats), a couple wore blouses and skirts, and a couple wore trouser suits. I think there were one or two black dresses in the mix.
As far as La vie's original question goes, I have no problem at all with a "ladies, no black please" request. I'd probably choose to phrase it as more of a preference, so as to allow the poor student who owns precisely one smart item of clothing (a little black dress) to feel comfortable.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Etiquette is all about making guests feel comfortable, and IMO nowadays a dress code does not do that with the exception of very formal events like meeting royalty.
That's an interesting point of view, because I almost feel the opposite. Some kind of dress code, whether explicit or tacit, is helpful for me, because it tells me what I should wear. I don't really want to turn up in jeans and a t-shirt to an event where everyone else is wearing a suit and tie, and nor do I particularly want to be the single suit-wearer at the barbecue. I'll feel more comfortable if my clothes don't stand out.
Usually, I just call the host and ask, unless it's obvious, and once we get past the usual "wear what you like, we just want you to be there" discussion, I ask what the host will be wearing.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Etiquette may well be about making guests feel comfortable at a general party, but it isn't about that at all when gathering for a specific event such as a wedding or even a birthday. The very point of such gatherings is that the focus is on a particular person.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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St Deird
Shipmate
# 7631
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chive:
I was at a funeral recently and I was shocked at what people wore. The family of the deceased wore black, myself and the friends I went with wore black but everyone else just seemed to wear whatever. This included someone who wore trackie bottoms and a tshirt. Surely its not hard to follow the general rules and wear black to a funeral? (That's unless the family specifically ask for something else which is fine). To turn up in any old thing seems disrespectful.
I can either wear jeans and a black tshirt, in which I'll look ratty, a black skirt and tshirt, in which I'll look goth, or a neat, semi-formal outfit with a coloured shirt. At funerals, I think the third option is usually the most appropriate.
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They're not hobbies; they're a robust post-apocalyptic skill-set.
Posts: 319 | From: the other side of nowhere | Registered: Jun 2004
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GCabot
Shipmate
# 18074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by GCabot:
quote:
Originally posted by Signaller:
I've worn a suit every working day since I was eleven years old. I'd feel very uncomfortable wearing casual clothes in that situation. YMMV, obviously.
Wait, you have been working since you were eleven-years-old? Is that not slightly illegal?
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I think it is much ruder to impose a dress code on guests. My smart clothing is all black, and I think nowadays black is associated more with smartness and formality than funerals.
Similarly, I was always taught that wedding lists or other gift requests were rude. Presents are to be welcomed but not expected. Expecting guests to spend money on new clothes is definitely rude - IMO it means you're putting clothes above spending time with people you love, and expecting guests to spend lots of money on travel without paying for a hotel room for them is also rude.
IMO being a good host is putting your guests first - back when formal dress codes were expected, this was part of it, but nowadays insisting on a dress code does more inconvenience than convenience. Etiquette is all about making guests feel comfortable, and IMO nowadays a dress code does not do that with the exception of very formal events like meeting royalty.
This is pure nonsense. The social convention for weddings is quite clear, of which your notions are the antithesis. If you are so offended at the idea of having to spend anything on attending another's wedding, then just do not go. The wedding is about the couple getting married; it is not about you. The couple should not have to tailor their plans around your personal convenience, if that was even a tenable solution for every guest. You do understand that throwing a wedding itself is expensive, right? To expect the couple to pay for the entire wedding, all the personal expenses of the guests, and generally work their plans around your personal whims, is not only rude, it is downright arrogant, selfish, and offensive. Do you really think that little of your friends and family?
I am not offended at spending money on someone's wedding - it's forcing that spending of money that is rude.
Again, being a good host is about putting your guests first - and the bride and groom are hosts (or sometimes their parents). Yes, weddings can be expensive (though they don't need to be - a registery office ceremony followed by the pub is still a wedding), but if you want to invite guests then make sure you can afford to meet their needs. Inviting people without making sure that the wedding is accessible for them (physically and financially) is incredibly rude. I'm not talking about the hosts doing every single thing for the guests - simply that guests are properly catered for, and this includes avoiding things like dress codes that could cause problems.
It is one thing if the couple decide to hold their wedding at some exotic locale. For the vast majority of weddings, however, the venue is either near where the couple lives, or near where the parents of the bride or groom live. Asking the couple to design their wedding plans around the needs of specific guests, is utterly unreasonable, in my opinion.
Similarly, unless the dress code dictates that everyone must wear haute couture, or something to that effect, any normal dress code for such an occasion is within the bounds of reasonability.
When one throws a dinner party, the focus is on the guests. A wedding is a significantly different affair, however. The focus of a wedding is squarely on the couple themselves. More leeway needs to be given to them than what one might otherwise give. Why do you think people put up with bridezilla behavior when such behavior would otherwise not be tolerated?
Finally, no one can "force" you to spend money you do not want to. If you are unwilling or unable to afford what is asked, then you should let the couple know and decline the invitation. If it is only the dress code that is problematic, then proffer your concerns to the couple. In all likelihood, they will not begrudge you wearing something else as long as you are polite enough to explain your situation.
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The child that is born unto us is more than a prophet; for this is he of whom the Savior saith: "Among them that are born of woman, there hath not risen one greater than John the Baptist."
Posts: 285 | From: The Heav'n Rescued Land | Registered: Apr 2014
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Rowen
Shipmate
# 1194
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Posted
My problem with funeral clothes....
As a minister, I can sense the thought processes and assumptions therein!
Friends/family know you should wear black.
Fair enough.
Many young women own black dresses. The kind you wear clubbing.
So, they wear their best black to the funeral. With accessories... Fishnet tights and so on.
All most unsuitable for a funeral.
Sigh.
[ 03. July 2014, 05:15: Message edited by: Rowen ]
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"May I live this day… compassionate of heart" (John O’Donoghue)...
Posts: 4897 | From: Somewhere cold in Victoria, Australia | Registered: Aug 2001
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by GCabot:
Similarly, unless the dress code dictates that everyone must wear haute couture, or something to that effect, any normal dress code for such an occasion is within the bounds of reasonability.
That is my personal experience but there are a few posters here saying it's common for happy couples to insist on the guests wearing morning suits, which does seem unreasonable in my view.
(And I agree with Karl about charity shops here.)
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Yes, I think it is unreasonable to expect people to wear morning coats. At ours and I think at most of the weddings that I went to in my late 20s/ early 30s, those who had them wore them, and those who didn't, didn't. Mind you, at my sister's wedding I (not an usher or anything) was made to wear a hired morning coat even though I had a perfectly respectable one of my own, of the same colour and essentially the same pattern as the hired ones. That still seems daft to me.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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GCabot
Shipmate
# 18074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Yes, I think it is unreasonable to expect people to wear morning coats. At ours and I think at most of the weddings that I went to in my late 20s/ early 30s, those who had them wore them, and those who didn't, didn't. Mind you, at my sister's wedding I (not an usher or anything) was made to wear a hired morning coat even though I had a perfectly respectable one of my own, of the same colour and essentially the same pattern as the hired ones. That still seems daft to me.
In my experience, when attire is suggested that the couple should know that most people would not have easy access to, it is usually restricted to the wedding party. Certainly in the U.S., specifying morning dress, especially for every invitee, would be unreasonable in most areas of the country; I doubt it would even be available in a lot of places.
Obviously, common sense and local custom needs to be taken into account if one provides a dress code for wedding guests. I never meant to imply otherwise.
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The child that is born unto us is more than a prophet; for this is he of whom the Savior saith: "Among them that are born of woman, there hath not risen one greater than John the Baptist."
Posts: 285 | From: The Heav'n Rescued Land | Registered: Apr 2014
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rowen:
Many young women own black dresses. The kind you wear clubbing.
So, they wear their best black to the funeral. With accessories... Fishnet tights and so on.
All most unsuitable for a funeral.
To be brutally honest, and given the number of funerals I've had to attend recently, any distraction is gratefully received.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Leorning Cniht: quote:
Some kind of dress code, whether explicit or tacit, is helpful for me, because it tells me what I should wear.
This is more or less how I feel about it too. There's a very wide range of options available to women; some idea of how to narrow the range is useful. One of the cousins at my wedding was wearing a formal cocktail dress (with hat) and all the other women were in ordinary (light-coloured) summer dresses. If it had been me who was overdressed compared to everyone else I'd have spent the whole day feeling uncomfortable because I'd got it wrong (my cousin, on the other hand, carried it off with great aplomb).
A lot of these customs associated with weddings (only some to do with clothes) are really superstition, attempts to get the marriage off to an auspicious start; so do you respect the wedding couple's wishes (despite the fact that you don't share their beliefs) or turn up dressed from head to toe in black with a gift-wrapped set of knives, treat them to a lecture about being Free in Christ and exhort them to cast off the chains of superstition?
And would your answer to this question depend on whether you were being invited to a 'Western' wedding or a wedding of a couple from another culture/religion (eg a Hindu or Chinese wedding)?
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
All a bunch of you are saying is that you're not in the same millieu as our current bride, and that something wouldn't work in your context.
Quite. Most of my guests are not rural Australians. They are (native or adopted) Parisians, i.e. considerably more fashion-conscious than the average human being. Compared to the outback, let’s say that they have a whole other approach to style and clothes. I forget what percentage of Parisians work in the fashion industry, but it’s not negligible. As I said, best friend en rouge is a full time fashionista, and consequently the messages we send through clothes are a big deal to her. She feels even more strongly than I do about black being inappropriate at weddings. Saying “But what if they own nothing black?” is also irrelevant. I’ve said that I know these people own suitable non-black clothes. The question is more about whether I have the right to squash their right to do as they please and individuality by requesting that they wear said non-black clothes.
A while ago I heard an interview on the radio with a wedding planner, who said something I found extremely wise. She said that organising a wedding is basically an exercise in *managing expectations*. Everyone involved has expectations – the couple, their families, the guests. It’s unreasonable to think that you’re going to meet all of everybody’s expectations, and to some degree you have to decide a) whose expectations you put first b) which of your own expectations are most important to you and c) who you are and aren’t prepared to offend/disappoint. For example, some of our family members may be expecting hard alcohol. Too bad for them, there won’t be anything stronger than wine because we frankly don’t trust them to behave if they are served spirits.
What bothers me about Jade’s position (it’s all about making everything as easy and enjoyable as possible for guests) is that ISTM that the couple may be asked unfairly to sacrifice too many of their own expectations. To take a generalised expectation of just about all concerned for a French wedding: there will be a very nice - and extremely lengthy - dinner. This dinner is expensive, eye-poppingly so if you organise it in Paris. Were we getting married in Paris we would be looking at 100€ a head. Consequently we are getting married some considerable distance away in the South West, where the price is about half that. While we are going to do our best to minimise the cost for people (car sharing, staying with family, allowing people to put up their tent in the back garden if they don’t want to pay for the hotel), there is definitely going to be expense involved for the people who have to travel. The alternative is not to invite them and have a dinner in Paris with considerably less people. Jade says we could go to the pub, but that fits with no one’s expectations, including ours. It isn’t a zero-sum game. I also don’t think you should sacrifice all of your expectations on one of the most important days of your life. Some of them, certainly. The question is which ones.
[ 03. July 2014, 09:44: Message edited by: la vie en rouge ]
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Rent my holiday home in the South of France
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
la vie en rouge said: quote:
Most of my guests are not rural Australians. They are (native or adopted) Parisians, i.e. considerably more fashion-conscious than the average human being.
I think this is the basic problem. People assume, if they are being invited to a 'Western' wedding, that they know what is expected of them and (more or less) what is going to happen; but there are huge variations in so-called 'Western culture'. The differences between British and French culture are particularly significant.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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ecumaniac
Ship's whipping girl
# 376
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Posted
End of the day, it's your wedding so your rules. But I happen to think that your dress code is kinda rude, in the same way that you think wearing black to a wedding is rude.
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it's a secret club for people with a knitting addiction, hiding under the cloak of BDSM - Catrine
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
All a bunch of you are saying is that you're not in the same millieu as our current bride, and that something wouldn't work in your context.
Quite. Most of my guests are not rural Australians. They are (native or adopted) Parisians, i.e. considerably more fashion-conscious than the average human being.
Why even ask us about it then? Surely such superior people as your guests will all turn up in palest haute couture without your needing to instruct them.
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Paul.
Shipmate
# 37
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
The question is more about whether I have the right to squash their right to do as they please and individuality by requesting that they wear said non-black clothes.
It's not about rights it's about relationships. You can be "in the right" and still piss off a good friend, just as they could you if they chose to wear black knowing your wishes. It then becomes a question of how much grace there is in the relationship to cover such offence.
A thought occurs that by not making the request in the invitation you leave room to believe the best of each other whereas making it explicit in writing forces the issue and potentially makes it a bigger deal.
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Vaticanchic
Shipmate
# 13869
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Posted
Even if not in clericals, I would only dress formally in black - the tie would be bright, though. I might be happy if it's specified "informal dress, please" - then it would be jeans & an open shirt.
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"Sink, Burn or Take Her a Prize"
Posts: 697 | From: UK | Registered: Jul 2008
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
All a bunch of you are saying is that you're not in the same millieu as our current bride, and that something wouldn't work in your context.
Quite. Most of my guests are not rural Australians. They are (native or adopted) Parisians, i.e. considerably more fashion-conscious than the average human being. Compared to the outback, let’s say that they have a whole other approach to style and clothes. I forget what percentage of Parisians work in the fashion industry, but it’s not negligible. As I said, best friend en rouge is a full time fashionista, and consequently the messages we send through clothes are a big deal to her. She feels even more strongly than I do about black being inappropriate at weddings. Saying “But what if they own nothing black?” is also irrelevant. I’ve said that I know these people own suitable non-black clothes. The question is more about whether I have the right to squash their right to do as they please and individuality by requesting that they wear said non-black clothes.
A while ago I heard an interview on the radio with a wedding planner, who said something I found extremely wise. She said that organising a wedding is basically an exercise in *managing expectations*. Everyone involved has expectations – the couple, their families, the guests. It’s unreasonable to think that you’re going to meet all of everybody’s expectations, and to some degree you have to decide a) whose expectations you put first b) which of your own expectations are most important to you and c) who you are and aren’t prepared to offend/disappoint. For example, some of our family members may be expecting hard alcohol. Too bad for them, there won’t be anything stronger than wine because we frankly don’t trust them to behave if they are served spirits.
What bothers me about Jade’s position (it’s all about making everything as easy and enjoyable as possible for guests) is that ISTM that the couple may be asked unfairly to sacrifice too many of their own expectations. To take a generalised expectation of just about all concerned for a French wedding: there will be a very nice - and extremely lengthy - dinner. This dinner is expensive, eye-poppingly so if you organise it in Paris. Were we getting married in Paris we would be looking at 100€ a head. Consequently we are getting married some considerable distance away in the South West, where the price is about half that. While we are going to do our best to minimise the cost for people (car sharing, staying with family, allowing people to put up their tent in the back garden if they don’t want to pay for the hotel), there is definitely going to be expense involved for the people who have to travel. The alternative is not to invite them and have a dinner in Paris with considerably less people. Jade says we could go to the pub, but that fits with no one’s expectations, including ours. It isn’t a zero-sum game. I also don’t think you should sacrifice all of your expectations on one of the most important days of your life. Some of them, certainly. The question is which ones.
I'd agree with this. Hospitality is a two way street.
I don't see the harm in just putting a light hearted note in the invites that says you want as colourful a day as possible so no black dresses or suits if possible. (My emphasis). The italics gives you an out as there will always be one person who rocks up in black. Some may do it on purpose - No one's telling me what to wear, I'm an indivdual! - whilst others may not have anything else that will do.
Have a wonderful day and all the best to you both for your new life together btw!
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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ecumaniac
Ship's whipping girl
# 376
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Posted
I'm not married, but for a while I was intending to be. And I fully intended for all my wedding expectations to be fulfilled - maybe I just had low expectations!!
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it's a secret club for people with a knitting addiction, hiding under the cloak of BDSM - Catrine
Posts: 2901 | From: Cambridge | Registered: Jun 2001
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Vaticanchic
Shipmate
# 13869
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Is it for the photographs, or something? I honestly didn't notice what other people wore at my wedding - but would have been glad to know they dressed as they felt was their best.
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"Sink, Burn or Take Her a Prize"
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Scots lass
Shipmate
# 2699
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
What bothers me about Jade’s position (it’s all about making everything as easy and enjoyable as possible for guests) is that ISTM that the couple may be asked unfairly to sacrifice too many of their own expectations. To take a generalised expectation of just about all concerned for a French wedding: there will be a very nice - and extremely lengthy - dinner. This dinner is expensive, eye-poppingly so if you organise it in Paris. Were we getting married in Paris we would be looking at 100€ a head. Consequently we are getting married some considerable distance away in the South West, where the price is about half that. While we are going to do our best to minimise the cost for people (car sharing, staying with family, allowing people to put up their tent in the back garden if they don’t want to pay for the hotel), there is definitely going to be expense involved for the people who have to travel. The alternative is not to invite them and have a dinner in Paris with considerably less people. Jade says we could go to the pub, but that fits with no one’s expectations, including ours. It isn’t a zero-sum game. I also don’t think you should sacrifice all of your expectations on one of the most important days of your life. Some of them, certainly. The question is which ones.
I think that is a very good point. If I and my boyfriend were to get married in the city in which we both live then it's extremely unlikely that my parents would be able to be there easily. My mother is in a wheelchair, they're both getting on a bit and I live in London whilst they're in the Highlands. As a result, if this hypothetical wedding were to take place then I'm faced with either making my parents lives extremely difficult or costing my friends a fair bit of money. Making life easy for my guests, several of whom may well be friends who live in London, would quite possibly preclude my parents from attending. Hypothetical wedding therefore likely to be in the Highlands, with a note on the invitation to say that we appreciate the time/effort/expense of guests to get there and presents extremely unnecessary, but potential list available. If I were to be making it as easy as possible for my hypothetical guests, who do you propose I leave off the guest list?
I also had a friend tell me that if i wore black to her wedding she would stop on the way down to aisle to suggest I leave. I wore blue. She expressed her wishes (more forcefully than LVER has!) and I complied.
Posts: 863 | From: the diaspora | Registered: Apr 2002
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Vaticanchic:
Is it for the photographs, or something? I honestly didn't notice what other people wore at my wedding - but would have been glad to know they dressed as they felt was their best.
I didn't care a jot either, but surely it's not confusing that some people do care about such things. I think this makes the most sense if you remember it's about feelings and what is offensive not really clothes. I'm told that one of my relatives got rather smashed at my wedding. I didn't notice that either, and I don't really care, but I gather some people would be offended by a relative who got drunk at their wedding too. (While others would be more annoyed at a relative who wasn't drinking.) I agree though that putting it in a more positive way would be more stylish.
And my two cents says knock the gender part. Either black is objectionable or it's not. If it is, then don't let the men do it either. I'm so bloody tired of dress codes for women and not men. I very much doubt that LVeR thinks of women as fashion plates to be stared at, but I think that's where the tradition of more dress codes for women than men comes from. And it bites. If the women can be bothered not to wear their precious little black dress, the men can damn well wear blue, brown, grey or whatever else may suit!
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Antisocial Alto
Shipmate
# 13810
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
The alternative is not to invite them and have a dinner in Paris with considerably less people. Jade says we could go to the pub, but that fits with no one’s expectations, including ours.
Miss Manners sez first make the guest list and then decide how much wedding you can afford (even if only punch and cookies in someone's back yard). This is in an American context, though.
Posts: 601 | From: United States | Registered: Jun 2008
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Good advice, though, if you value your people more than your stuff.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
I don't see the harm in just putting a light hearted note in the invites that says you want as colourful a day as possible so no black dresses or suits if possible. (My emphasis). The italics gives you an out as there will always be one person who rocks up in black. Some may do it on purpose - No one's telling me what to wear, I'm an indivdual! - whilst others may not have anything else that will do.
Tubbs
Several people have suggested this "if possible," position and I just can't picture anyone showing up in black if the bride had taken the trouble to state her preference on the invitation. IMO that really would be rude. The person who says to themselves, "Well black is all I have and I can't afford anything new so I'll just wear this," is going to be looked at with either pity or scorn by everyone there.
Others here have suggested the, "Just don't go," option which I also find unrealistic. Once one is over forty most wedding invitation are for the children of friends or relatives. The last dozen or so weddings I've been to had brides and grooms I wouldn't have recognized on the street, but I would have been in big trouble with my friends/relatives if I hadn't gone.
For what it's worth, I searched Miss Manner's site for this and found someone saying she had received an invitation requesting guests wear "fall colors," to match her autumn themed wedding.
Miss Manners answered that this was wrong, the guests are not part of the color scheme of the wedding but that guests should know not to wear, "white, black or red."
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
I think it depends what is important to you at your wedding. To me a wedding is about the pledging of lives of two people in the presence of family and friends. It is not about important celebrities in attendance or who wore what. My own wedding over 40 years ago is memorable for me about the wonderful people there and the happiness of the occasion. I have no memory of what anybody wore except for the bridal party for which I have photographs to remind me.
Incidentally, a recent wedding I attended was a totally black/white affair and the bridesmaids looked stunning.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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My usual expectations in the UK are that if morning dress is specified, then it's usually only for immediate family and attendants - not for all guests. Only my s-in-law had a morning dress wedding, and knowing our finances was happy to stump up for hire, so I opted for full highland with family tartan which came in at the same price, and which she was v. happy with.
I'm with Tubbs about lightening the request for non-black so that it expresses a preference rather than telling people what to wear. In England in English I might say something like "We're trying for a colourful wedding, so avoid black if you can." If something like that works linguistically and culturally in French then great. If black with good colour is acceptable then you could add, "or glam up your black" or something like that.
IME, for men, jacket and tie is the minimum expectation at a wedding (often w'out jacket in the summer - if we have one). In my observation, lounge suit is the norm, anything more formal than that needs to be specified. I have v. rarely worn suits for the last 20+ years, so the one I bought for my wedding is still OK (classic styling), but I shall probably invest in a new tie for my niece's wedding in August.
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Scots lass, I have two friends with daughters getting married this year in other parts of the United States (both sets of parents live here). Both families are having the actual weddings where their respective daughters live and then receptions here for the parents' friends and people who knew the brides when they were growing up. The opposite situation would work as well (wedding in parents' home town, receptions where bride and groom currently live).
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
All a bunch of you are saying is that you're not in the same millieu as our current bride, and that something wouldn't work in your context.
Quite. Most of my guests are not rural Australians. They are (native or adopted) Parisians, i.e. considerably more fashion-conscious than the average human being.
Why even ask us about it then? Surely such superior people as your guests will all turn up in palest haute couture without your needing to instruct them.
But then you may have the rare outlier-- which, in all three of the weddings I described earlier that I attended last year, was me. ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) For a happily related-but socially isolated-outlier like me, the dress "code" ("suggestion" might be a nicer way to put it) is an act of mercy, all the more so if the vast majority of the guests are in similar social/cultural strata. Making it a blanket statement may be unnecessary, but is a bit gentler than calling out the outliers individually to let us know we're such fashion boors it's completely obvious that we need remedial instruction (we are, but kind of you not to point it out).
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Cathscats
Shipmate
# 17827
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Posted
I have never noticed a black dress at a wedding, and I conduct 15 a year on average. Paris must be a strange place.
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"...damp hands and theological doubts - the two always seem to go together..." (O. Douglas, "The Setons")
Posts: 176 | From: Central Highlands | Registered: Sep 2013
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cathscats:
I have never noticed a black dress at a wedding, and I conduct 15 a year on average. Paris must be a strange place.
Quite common in the US among certain circles, particularly if the dress is formal. But wide variation among locales & generations, as noted in my examples above.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
I too was brought up to think wedding guests should never wear white because that was for the bride and we would have never thought of wearing black to a wedding as that was too miserable.
However I was at a wedding last year where the bride told people they must wear black, and I don’t own any black it’s just not a colour I wear I look ill in it…. The bridesmaids wore black and she had a white dress covered in black net, the men black ties too. I must say there where quite a few of us who said it looked like a funeral not a wedding.
A few years ago I knew a bride who had a fear of black and she was marrying in a Methodist church where the minister’s usual garb was a black cassock. She explained to him and he took it in good part and borrowed a surplice to cover it.
Some people want wedding present lists to guide them with what to buy others don’t. A million years ago when we married we compromised and had a list but only gave it to anybody who asked for one, not as has happened to me on more than one occasion with a list being included in the invitation .
The last few funerals I have been at, there have been quite a few people wearing work gear and jeans etc By and large they were working people who took an hour off to pay their respects, (there was even somebody wearing a united utilities uniform) so their clothing wasn’t an issue, the family were please they had made the effort to get there.
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
I missed my Goddaughter’s 21st because of a dress code - it was fancy dress and none of my family would go with me.
They said they found fancy dress ridiculous and the very idea made them feel foolish and so there was no way that they were doing it. I must say as a complete introvert I wasn’t very happy with the thought myself but I would have done it because of the occasion that it was but there was no way I was going on my own.
The hiring of so many fancy dress outfits would have cost us a small fortune so we were glad to save the money..
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
That's a pity. The whole fun of fancy dress is the concept, as much as the execution. If you had had any black clothes, you could have worn them, clutched a hot water bottle and come as Death Warmed Up. Or a floaty dress and a bunch of onions (The Lady of Shallott). Or - well, you get the idea.
Which is another thing: besides all the semiotics and etiquette and managed expectations, clothes for a celebratory occasion out to be part of the enjoyment. I love an excuse to wear colours and fabrics that are not 'everyday' - not to mention stonking great bits of jewellery (what's known in the trade as 'statement pieces').
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291
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Posted
Oh, yeah, much more fun to make your own fancy dress! We have some friends who went to a Titanic party in bin bags with cotton wall balls glued on - they were flies on the wall.
M.
Posts: 2303 | From: Lurking in Surrey | Registered: Sep 2002
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by M.:
Oh, yeah, much more fun to make your own fancy dress! We have some friends who went to a Titanic party in bin bags with cotton wall balls glued on - they were flies on the wall.
M.
There’s a flaw in that plan – I have no imagination and I’m not creative at all, so even a fancy dress for the children when they were little was enough to send me into anxiety attacks.
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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