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Source: (consider it) Thread: Are the OT "bad guys" saved?
cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Thanks Dafydd and Schroedinger for the explanations.

I admit to still being completely baffled. It doesn't make any sense. I'm not even sure where to start unpicking it.

...There was no such thing as Hell in Abraham's day. You died and that was it.

And salvation does depend on knowing Jesus (at least Christian salvation). That's precisely what the New Testament teaches.

This idea seems to me to be totally unscriptural.

It sounds like it does make sense to you, you simply disagree with it.

I would not say that the NT "precisely" teaches that salvation comes from "knowing" Jesus. It teaches precisely that salvation comes through Jesus-- that no one is saved apart from his redemptive work. That's not the same thing as saying it comes thru "knowing" him or that redemptive work.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I don't understand. What are the redemptive qualities of Christ's death and resurrection if you never knew anything about him?

Jesus isn't Tinkerbell, he doesn't depend on our belief. Christ's resurrection broke the power of death and hell, not for some but for all.
So I don't need to bother being a Christian then? I don't need to bother to follow the Way, the Truth and the Life?

Everybody is free from the power of sin and death and Hell right now?

The mind boggles

Well, "mind-boggling" is pretty much the way the Bible describes God's salvation throughout, so that makes sense.

The reason we follow the Way, the Truth, and the Life is because we have faith-- iow, we believe it is the best possible life for us. Because we are "rehearsing in the present the life we live for all eternity." Not because we are under the thumb of some tyrant threatening us with eternal punishment.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Martin60
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Salvation is immediate in following the way of Jesus (the answer's in His name), whether one has ever heard of Him or not.

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Love wins

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Evensong
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quote:
Originally posted by StevHep:
I think salvation depends upon how we respond to the grace which God freely gives us. If we respond as well as we are able to within the limits of our knowledge and ability then we enter into the fruits of the redemption won for us by Jesus. Since God is not bound by time or space He can offer those fruits simultaneously to all points and places of human history.

The benefit of having an explicit knowledge of the Christian faith is that it enables us, through a personal relationship with Jesus, to enter into the life of eternity here while we are in the life of time as a prelude and anticipation of entering it more fully, uninterruptedly and forever after the end of our mortal journey.

I missed this. This is good.

quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
I suppose in a way it did. As to why, that's a more difficult question to answer which probably deserves more thought first, though sticking my neck out here maybe this is the mystery the Apostle writes of in his epistle to the Romans, that God having foreknowledge of such things, that was the lot ordained for the unrighteous from eternity. I don't know.

Hallelujah! Somebody played! Thank you for your honest response Ad Orientum. If you have any further thoughts, feel free to share them with me in a PM or here. I'm genuinely curious.

quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I don't understand. What are the redemptive qualities of Christ's death and resurrection if you never knew anything about him?

Jesus isn't Tinkerbell, he doesn't depend on our belief. Christ's resurrection broke the power of death and hell, not for some but for all.
So I don't need to bother being a Christian then? I don't need to bother to follow the Way, the Truth and the Life?

Everybody is free from the power of sin and death and Hell right now?

The mind boggles

Well, "mind-boggling" is pretty much the way the Bible describes God's salvation throughout, so that makes sense.

The reason we follow the Way, the Truth, and the Life is because we have faith-- iow, we believe it is the best possible life for us. Because we are "rehearsing in the present the life we live for all eternity." Not because we are under the thumb of some tyrant threatening us with eternal punishment.

Ah, you have faith that it is the best possible life that leads you to the eternal now.

And where would you learn that from if you never encountered Jesus?

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a theological scrapbook

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Belle Ringer
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This thread seem to miss the point. Christianity isn't about "who goes to heaven and who goes to hell." It's about revealing God to us, the fact that God loves us, and wants us to see reality from his viewpoint. Stop being so hung up on material things, consider the lilies, don't fret when you are the victim of another flawed human, love your enemies, do good, rejoice, eternal life is now, the kingdom is at hand, just reach out!

"I and the father are one," Jesus did what he sees the father doing, and that includes the crucifixion and resurrection - forgiving those who scorn abuse neglect and haven't yet repented because they don't think they are doing wrong. Forgiven anyway, Jesus on the cross showing us what God does all the time since he does only what he sees the Father do.

It's not about heaven hell as remote from us places/experiences, it's about seeing with new eyes, a change of how to relate to each other and to creation and to God. Spread the word you are loved and valued and so is your neighbor and your no good son and you don't have to worry! Help others rejoice! Yes there are short term problems - Jesus on the cross - but long term it works out amazingly - Jesus resurrected.

Those who continue to cheat, steal, backbite, send out inflated bills, do shoddy work when no one is looking, spread false gossip just because it's "a good story," they don't "get it," even if they go to church regularly. Those who reach out to others with forgiveness and love instead of trying to amass possessions or status or other "this too will end" addictions "get it" even if they have not heard the specific name "Jesus" they have caught on to life the way he wants us to see it and they reflect him in their lives.

Abraham mostly caught on even though he was a flawed human (telling his wife to lie, to save his own skin).

Christianity is not about rituals, its about the nature of reality, which rituals can help us see, but there are other ways to catch on.

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Lamb Chopped
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Stealing from Lewis here--

Everyone who is saved / has eternal life/ comes to the Father / however you want to phrase it, everyone who is saved, is saved through Christ. Christ is the only way, as he himself says. However, he does NOT say that everyone who is saved through Christ, explicitly knows his name and the basic facts of his life, death, and resurrection.

The OT believers are certainly saved through Christ, regardless of their position in space-time with regard to the Incarnation. They are saved because they are in Christ just as we are, however vague, hidden or confusing the details of that may be to them.

The OT baddies are also saved (or not) on the same basis. So also for infants, the profoundly disabled, and IMHO those who have never had a chance to hear.

They are not going to be standing there on Judgement Day looking all confused and squinting at the One on the throne, saying "Whozat? Never met him before. Look familiar to you, Ernie?" They will know him, just as we will--because God has reached them in Christ, though the exact means might seem unfamiliar to us (circumcision anyone? sacrifices? those sure seem a bit odd to me). No one will be able to truly say that God is unjust or unmerciful.

Not that any of this lets us off the duty of evangelism and Christian teaching.

[ 06. July 2014, 19:16: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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que sais-je
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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Stealing from Lewis here--

Everyone who is saved / has eternal life/ comes to the Father / however you want to phrase it, everyone who is saved, is saved through Christ. Christ is the only way, as he himself says. However, he does NOT say that everyone who is saved through Christ, explicitly knows his name and the basic facts of his life, death, and resurrection.

So assuming there are sentient beings spread across the universe, the majority of whom will never hear of Jesus, they will all get judged? And some will go to the bit of heaven reserved for green slimy things with tentacles (or is Heaven/Hell only for homo sapiens?) while others will get the Hell appropriate to them - and none of them will have the slightest idea why.

Funny old world.

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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)

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HCH
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One New Testament event that does seem relevant to all this is the Transfiguration. Moses and Elijah appear (though how anyone could recognize them is a good question; maybe Jesus introduced them to the others?). Presumably, when Moses and Elijah died, that was not an absolute end for them.

Likewise, the witch of Endor was able to summon the spirit of Samuel. Assuming this was not a hoax, he likewise must in some sense have continued to exist after his death.

To me it seems likely that characters of the Old Testament are "saved" or not based on the same criteria as anyone else: acceptance of the love and will of God.

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Lamb Chopped
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quote:
Originally posted by que sais-je:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Stealing from Lewis here--

Everyone who is saved / has eternal life/ comes to the Father / however you want to phrase it, everyone who is saved, is saved through Christ. Christ is the only way, as he himself says. However, he does NOT say that everyone who is saved through Christ, explicitly knows his name and the basic facts of his life, death, and resurrection.

So assuming there are sentient beings spread across the universe, the majority of whom will never hear of Jesus, they will all get judged? And some will go to the bit of heaven reserved for green slimy things with tentacles (or is Heaven/Hell only for homo sapiens?) while others will get the Hell appropriate to them - and none of them will have the slightest idea why.

Funny old world.

First of all, how do we know they have sinned and require any judgement? We don't. We may be the only idiots out there, and everybody else is already happily getting on with life, the universe, and everything. Under the one triune God of course, who is also their God, and who will doubtless have his own ways of dealing with them in their situations.

As for never having heard of Jesus--

Sure they aren't likely to know his name on earth, or his story here. But the one God is their God too, if Christianity is true at all. Would you bet that Christ doesn't have his own personal dealings with them we know nothing of? Seems very likely to me. Not that it'd be our business to poke into unless they chose to tell us about it.

I rather hope they do. I would love to spend part of eternity hearing what Christ has been up to in other parts of the universe.

[ 06. July 2014, 20:25: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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que sais-je
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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

Sure they aren't likely to know his name on earth, or his story here. But the one God is their God too, if Christianity is true at all. Would you bet that Christ doesn't have his own personal dealings with them we know nothing of? Seems very likely to me. Not that it'd be our business to poke into unless they chose to tell us about it.

In that case might not the same apply here? If God deals differently with other planets might he not do so also with civilisations on this planet. A dispensation for ancient India (Vedic/Jain/Buddhist), China (Taoist/Confucian) and so on.

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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)

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Martin60
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If we're not unique, then neither is Jesus. Otherwise we're unique even if were not ...

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Love wins

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by que sais-je:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

Sure they aren't likely to know his name on earth, or his story here. But the one God is their God too, if Christianity is true at all. Would you bet that Christ doesn't have his own personal dealings with them we know nothing of? Seems very likely to me. Not that it'd be our business to poke into unless they chose to tell us about it.

In that case might not the same apply here? If God deals differently with other planets might he not do so also with civilisations on this planet. A dispensation for ancient India (Vedic/Jain/Buddhist), China (Taoist/Confucian) and so on.
It's an interesting idea. I suppose possibly it makes Christianity in its traditional form, collapse, since you are removing the boundaries between in-groups and out-groups. But maybe God wants to remove those boundaries? God is probably a postmodernist, after all, hence a shape-shifter.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Latchkey Kid
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Cain, King Saul, and Job's friends, are known as the "bad characters of the Bible." Has the Church or anyone considered them beyond the reach of saving grace?

Just wanted to put in a plug for Job's friends. They started off OK by giving Job a sustaining presence for seven days. For their misguided arguments we are told
quote:
After the Lord had spoken these words to Job, the Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite: “My wrath is kindled against you and against your two friends; for you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has. Now therefore take seven bulls and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you, for I will accept his prayer not to deal with you according to your folly; for you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has done.” So Eliphaz the Temanite and Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite went and did what the Lord had told them; and the Lord accepted Job’s prayer
(IMHO Job is a play and the characters are not historical, so the question is only of theoretical interest for them. PS. Elihu does not get mentioned in this conclusion)

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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner

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Dafyd
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quote:
Originally posted by que sais-je:
If God deals differently with other planets might he not do so also with civilisations on this planet. A dispensation for ancient India (Vedic/Jain/Buddhist), China (Taoist/Confucian) and so on.

I think that would raise a question of demarcation. Is the Indian dispensation available to people in the Indus Valley or the Persian highlands? What about Europeans who move to India? (For that matter, why is the Jewish dispensation available to Europeans?) And do the dispensations between them achieve total coverage of all human populations throughout history?
For that matter, it requires further elaboration to say that the Vedic and Taoist traditions are self-contained dispensations from a God who isn't explicitly referred to in those terms from within those religions.

Not that I think you have to know about Jesus to be saved. Salvation is on the basis of God's grace, not human knowledge, let alone human assent to a creed or doctrinal basis. But I think it's important that all of humanity has a common hope in what we call the one God. And dispensations would imply otherwise.

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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que sais-je
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quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
Not that I think you have to know about Jesus to be saved. Salvation is on the basis of God's grace, not human knowledge, let alone human assent to a creed or doctrinal basis. But I think it's important that all of humanity has a common hope in what we call the one God. And dispensations would imply otherwise.

You find "a common hope" for all humanity important. I don't see why it's important we should all believe the same thing or live in the same way or, indeed, have the same hope. Indeed given the variety of humanity I see diversity as good. It encourages us to be always aware that there are other people (sometimes cleverer, living apparently better lives, dealing better with life's problems and so on) who don't share our beliefs and so, with a bit of luck, we may become more aware of our fallibility and our possibilities.

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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)

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quetzalcoatl
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I always have to demur when people say, we need a common hope in God. Nobody in my family believed in God, even the grandparents, and they were decent people, who loved life, and each other.

Sometimes, when I am musing on it, I wonder if God has a dispensation for atheists like them. I don't see why not.

I should also mention my Buddhist friends, who find God a superfluous term; and as some of them say, kill the Buddha also.

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Martin60
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Does He have a dispensation for most Christians though?

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Love wins

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que sais-je
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Does He have a dispensation for most Christians though?

Perhaps all religions need a dispensation. Maybe God, having given us free-will, expected us to get on with creating a good world without having to keep looking back to Him for excuses like kids who blame their parents for the mess they make. Or the sort who never leave the parental home.

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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)

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Latchkey Kid
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Does He have a dispensation for most Christians though?

Are you talking about The Buddha?

If not:-
It seems to me from reading the Gospels that judgment/condemnation is mostly reserved for the religious types/Christians who are unforgiving and do not love their neighbours. The "our father" prayer example(s) asks God to forgive us in just the same way that we forgive others. The crowds who do not become disciples seem to be let off lightly. Becoming a Christian is not something to be taken lightly. I wouldn't recommend it unless you are called.

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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner

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Dafyd
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quote:
Originally posted by que sais-je:
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
Not that I think you have to know about Jesus to be saved. Salvation is on the basis of God's grace, not human knowledge, let alone human assent to a creed or doctrinal basis. But I think it's important that all of humanity has a common hope in what we call the one God. And dispensations would imply otherwise.

You find "a common hope" for all humanity important. I don't see why it's important we should all believe the same thing or live in the same way or, indeed, have the same hope. Indeed given the variety of humanity I see diversity as good. It encourages us to be always aware that there are other people (sometimes cleverer, living apparently better lives, dealing better with life's problems and so on) who don't share our beliefs and so, with a bit of luck, we may become more aware of our fallibility and our possibilities.
They can't make us more aware of our fallibility and possibilities if we don't have common possibilities. If their possibilities are nothing to do with our possibilities, then they can't tell us anything about our possibilities. If their successes are nothing to do with our successes, they can tell us nothing about our fallibility.

Do you really think that having a common hope rules out diversity? That among those of us with whom you do share a common hope, diversity is a bad thing? Surely diversity and common hope are compatible? Diversity might be one of the things we hope for?

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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Belle Ringer
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Does He have a dispensation for most Christians though?

For those who call themselves active committed Christians but boast about cheating others, a generous dispensation is the only hope I see. Some of my atheist friends are more consistently loving to the down and out than some of my Christian friends. But those Christians proudly don't use swear words. Like God really cares about that!
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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Does He have a dispensation for most Christians though?

For those who call themselves active committed Christians but boast about cheating others, a generous dispensation is the only hope I see. Some of my atheist friends are more consistently loving to the down and out than some of my Christian friends. But those Christians proudly don't use swear words. Like God really cares about that!
Well, that's something I ponder a lot. I have friends of different faiths, and none. Does a loving God really care about the differences?

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que sais-je
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quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
Do you really think that having a common hope rules out diversity? That among those of us with whom you do share a common hope, diversity is a bad thing? Surely diversity and common hope are compatible? Diversity might be one of the things we hope for?

Your original quote said: But I think it's important that all of humanity has a common hope in what we call the one God.

I interpreted that, perhaps wrongly, as implying a shared belief in one God. Buddhists, for example, won't share that unless you are prepared to equate a triune personal God with the workings out of the impersonal process of the Dharma. Hindus will want a different trinity, and so on.

Clearly our hopes intersect. We are all human and most of us want homes for the homeless, food for the hungry, protection for the widows and orphans and so on. What doesn't convince me is a common hope in what we call the one God.

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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)

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quetzalcoatl
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Venn diagram required, please!

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Oscar the Grouch

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quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
(IMHO Job is a play and the characters are not historical, so the question is only of theoretical interest for them.

Damn right!

(In passing, how does Job as a play compare with other early examples of plays? When was anything comparable done? And where? I've always had this feeling that the drama of Job was fairly groundbreaking from a literary point of view. There certainly doesn't seem to have been anything else like it in Jewish writings of the time.)

quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
PS. Elihu does not get mentioned in this conclusion)

Don't get me started on the various theories of why Elihu doesn't get a mention. We'll be here all night. I love the book of Job. (Can you tell??)

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que sais-je
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Venn diagram required, please!

There is no common hope for a Venn diagram. Perhaps that might be one thing we could all agree on.

Though this site makes a start.

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quetzalcoatl
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http://tinyurl.com/puc5h7z

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Dafyd
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quote:
Originally posted by que sais-je:
Your original quote said: But I think it's important that all of humanity has a common hope in what we call the one God.

I interpreted that, perhaps wrongly, as implying a shared belief in one God. Buddhists, for example, won't share that unless you are prepared to equate a triune personal God with the workings out of the impersonal process of the Dharma. Hindus will want a different trinity, and so on.

Clearly our hopes intersect. We are all human and most of us want homes for the homeless, food for the hungry, protection for the widows and orphans and so on. What doesn't convince me is a common hope in what we call the one God.

The argument, at the point where I said that, was talking about the Christian God putting forward different dispensations for different groups of people. So I thought it was presupposing God as something sufficiently like God as we Christians believe God to be that God can put forward dispensations for various groups. That I find problematic for lots of reasons. Nobody has addressed the question of demarcation boundaries that I put forward in my post. Or, what happens to the atheists under such a scheme?

I'm a Christian. I speak as a Christian. As a Christian I believe in God, and God is the common hope of humanity. Buddhists and Hindus interpret that differently. We all see in a mirror darkly; we're probably both a bit wrong. And both right in ways that we don't yet see. But I think I'd rather be a bit wrong about something that Buddhists are also a bit wrong about, so that we can have a common conversation; than be perfectly right in such a way that there's no conversation to be had with Buddhists about it.

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Does He have a dispensation for most Christians though?

For those who call themselves active committed Christians but boast about cheating others, a generous dispensation is the only hope I see. Some of my atheist friends are more consistently loving to the down and out than some of my Christian friends. But those Christians proudly don't use swear words. Like God really cares about that!
Well, that's something I ponder a lot. I have friends of different faiths, and none. Does a loving God really care about the differences?
Well, if God is indeed a loving God (as I believe s/he is) then s/he would certainly care. A loving God would certainly care whether one lives one's life wedded to a lie, or to truth. One would certainly care the consequences those lies might have on your happiness and way of life-- the difference, for example, in believing that it's a dog-eat-dog world and you have to screw them before they screw you, and living a life based on the belief that the first shall be last. Or the difference between living a life burdened by bitterness or unforgiveness or self-hatred vs. one lived in peace and grace. I gotta believe God cares about things like that.

But the fact that God cares about such things does not necessarily imply that he eternally punishes such things. I

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Raptor Eye
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The story of Jonah is a pretty good illustration too, imv. Fear is used to help people to see that God is God. Jonah is sent to foreigners to try to help them to see the error of their ways. They do, but instead of celebrating Jonah is miffed as he always knew God was gracious and merciful, slow to anger, abounding in steadfast love, and ready to relent from punishing, which is why he didn't want the miserable and dangerous task of giving them the message.

Somehow the story seems to speak into this thread....

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que sais-je
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quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
The argument, at the point where I said that, was talking about the Christian God putting forward different dispensations for different groups of people.

My apologies for mixing up contexts.

Nobody has addressed the question of demarcation boundaries that I put forward in my post.

I doubt that, whatever is ultimately in store for us, the particular route is as important as making the journey (however you interpret that). A friend of mine converted from Judaism to CoE, then to being a Quaker, from there to Anglo-Catholicism and now to RCC. If there is a God, I'm sure he can cope

Or, what happens to the atheists under such a scheme?

You get to say, "We told you so" for all eternity.

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quetzalcoatl
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For atheists, there might be a final post-mortem try-out with the flaky five arguments for God. After that, 'I told you so', on one side; and 'go and sleep with the fishes' on the other, so honour is satisfied, well, sort of.

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Does He have a dispensation for most Christians though?

For those who call themselves active committed Christians but boast about cheating others, a generous dispensation is the only hope I see. Some of my atheist friends are more consistently loving to the down and out than some of my Christian friends. But those Christians proudly don't use swear words. Like God really cares about that!
Well, that's something I ponder a lot. I have friends of different faiths, and none. Does a loving God really care about the differences?
Well, if God is indeed a loving God (as I believe s/he is) then s/he would certainly care. A loving God would certainly care whether one lives one's life wedded to a lie, or to truth. One would certainly care the consequences those lies might have on your happiness and way of life-- the difference, for example, in believing that it's a dog-eat-dog world and you have to screw them before they screw you, and living a life based on the belief that the first shall be last. Or the difference between living a life burdened by bitterness or unforgiveness or self-hatred vs. one lived in peace and grace. I gotta believe God cares about things like that.

But the fact that God cares about such things does not necessarily imply that he eternally punishes such things. I

OK, but if my old Sufi friend lived a life full of peace and grace, how goes God rate that? Sort of B+?

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que sais-je
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
For atheists, there might be a final post-mortem try-out with the flaky five arguments for God. After that, 'I told you so', on one side; and 'go and sleep with the fishes' on the other, so honour is satisfied, well, sort of.

Sleeping with the fishes

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by que sais-je:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
For atheists, there might be a final post-mortem try-out with the flaky five arguments for God. After that, 'I told you so', on one side; and 'go and sleep with the fishes' on the other, so honour is satisfied, well, sort of.

Sleeping with the fishes
Beautiful. Mud unto mud! There are now six flaky (or scaly) arguments for God.

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Belle Ringer
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Well, that's something I ponder a lot. I have friends of different faiths, and none. Does a loving God really care about the differences?

A loving God would certainly care whether one lives one's life wedded to a lie, or to truth... the difference, for example, in believing that it's a dog-eat-dog world and you have to screw them before they screw you, and living a life based on the belief that the first shall be last. Or the difference between living a life burdened by bitterness or unforgiveness or self-hatred vs. one lived in peace and grace. I gotta believe God cares about things like that.

OK, but if my old Sufi friend lived a life full of peace and grace, how goes God rate that? Sort of B+?

If the Sufi friend rejects the dog-eat-dog looking out for number one world, that's a big step above some I know who have "accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior" but don't act like it.

I doubt any of us get it all right (B+ might be a high grade!), but either there are some major disagreements about what Jesus taught (the poor deserve to suffer because they are just lazy?) or we need some basic training about the difference between claiming someone is your savior and actually joining them on their path out of the burning building. Not that I believe in hellfire as literal, but we all need to be saved from our selves, our misunderstanding of what life is about, about what the real sources of joy are.

Behaviors don't earn your way to heaven, but they demonstrate whether or not you "get it" as to what life with other people is about. Some Sufi and atheists etc demonstrate they 'get it' better than some self-described Christians.

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Does He have a dispensation for most Christians though?

For those who call themselves active committed Christians but boast about cheating others, a generous dispensation is the only hope I see. Some of my atheist friends are more consistently loving to the down and out than some of my Christian friends. But those Christians proudly don't use swear words. Like God really cares about that!
Well, that's something I ponder a lot. I have friends of different faiths, and none. Does a loving God really care about the differences?
Well, if God is indeed a loving God (as I believe s/he is) then s/he would certainly care. A loving God would certainly care whether one lives one's life wedded to a lie, or to truth. One would certainly care the consequences those lies might have on your happiness and way of life-- the difference, for example, in believing that it's a dog-eat-dog world and you have to screw them before they screw you, and living a life based on the belief that the first shall be last. Or the difference between living a life burdened by bitterness or unforgiveness or self-hatred vs. one lived in peace and grace. I gotta believe God cares about things like that.

But the fact that God cares about such things does not necessarily imply that he eternally punishes such things. I

OK, but if my old Sufi friend lived a life full of peace and grace, how goes God rate that? Sort of B+?
You seem to have missed the point of my post. I don't think God is in the "rating" game.

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quetzalcoatl
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Belle Ringer wrote:

Behaviors don't earn your way to heaven, but they demonstrate whether or not you "get it" as to what life with other people is about. Some Sufi and atheists etc demonstrate they 'get it' better than some self-described Christians.

That's an interesting group of ideas. So what does earn your way to heaven? It seems to be different from treating other people well, so I suppose you are referring to the correct beliefs? Hmm. That is a weird notion of God in my book.

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Dafyd
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Belle Ringer wrote:

Behaviors don't earn your way to heaven, but they demonstrate whether or not you "get it" as to what life with other people is about. Some Sufi and atheists etc demonstrate they 'get it' better than some self-described Christians.

That's an interesting group of ideas. So what does earn your way to heaven?

That's an unusual logical deduction.

From, 'Dai has never fucked a sheep,' it does not follow that Dai has fucked another farm animal. From 'good behaviour does not earn your way to heaven,' it does not follow that something else does.

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Belle Ringer wrote:

Behaviors don't earn your way to heaven, but they demonstrate whether or not you "get it" as to what life with other people is about. Some Sufi and atheists etc demonstrate they 'get it' better than some self-described Christians.

That's an interesting group of ideas. So what does earn your way to heaven?

That's an unusual logical deduction.

From, 'Dai has never fucked a sheep,' it does not follow that Dai has fucked another farm animal. From 'good behaviour does not earn your way to heaven,' it does not follow that something else does.

Well, that's a fair point; but honestly, it's like getting blood out of a stone sometimes with you Christians. I am guessing now that 'earn' is incorrect in any case. Ah well, I will go and ask my wife, she was at a Methodist boarding school, so she probably knows something about it.

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Belle Ringer wrote:

Behaviors don't earn your way to heaven, but they demonstrate whether or not you "get it" as to what life with other people is about. Some Sufi and atheists etc demonstrate they 'get it' better than some self-described Christians.

That's an interesting group of ideas. So what does earn your way to heaven?

That's an unusual logical deduction.

From, 'Dai has never fucked a sheep,' it does not follow that Dai has fucked another farm animal. From 'good behaviour does not earn your way to heaven,' it does not follow that something else does.

Well, that's a fair point; but honestly, it's like getting blood out of a stone sometimes with you Christians. I am guessing now that 'earn' is incorrect in any case. Ah well, I will go and ask my wife, she was at a Methodist boarding school, so she probably knows something about it.
The standard Christian answer is that nothing "earns" you a place in heaven, *we* gain entrance through Christ's redemptive death & resurrection. The only dispute is who is the "we"-- is it some version of "Bible-believin' Christians" or people who "trust in/follow Jesus" or is it "good people" or do we take Jesus at his word and assume that he truly did die for the whole world?

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quetzalcoatl
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cliffdweller

Now that's talking, brother! I have heard something similar in Zen: when you're sitting outside the palace of truth, and you want to be inside, you can't get there by your own efforts, but then you find yourself inside - by grace. Or alternatively, who is that fellow with no name and no head?

[ 09. July 2014, 18:43: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]

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Belle Ringer
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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:

Belle Ringer wrote:

quote:
Behaviors don't earn your way to heaven, but they demonstrate whether or not you "get it" as to what life with other people is about. Some Sufi and atheists etc demonstrate they 'get it' better than some self-described Christians.
...So what does earn your way to heaven?

The standard Christian answer is that nothing "earns" you a place in heaven, *we* gain entrance through Christ's redemptive death & resurrection. The only dispute is who is the "we"-- ...
Yup.
(edited in flawed effort to putter with code)

[ 09. July 2014, 19:00: Message edited by: Belle Ringer ]

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Fr Weber
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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:


I think I heard Mudfro say Noah was only righteous because Christ's work made him so.

Well that's just ridiculous. Why wasn't everyone else righteous too then? What made Noah different?

His faith. See Romans, Epistle to.

(St Paul doesn't mention Noah, but he does mention Abraham, and one might assume that the same salvation is open to the other patriarchs and "righteous" people of the OT)

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que sais-je
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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
The only dispute is who is the "we"-- is it some version of "Bible-believin' Christians" or people who "trust in/follow Jesus" or is it "good people" or do we take Jesus at his word and assume that he truly did die for the whole world?

I still prefer the option of just ceasing to exist. Is that still available?

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quetzalcoatl
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Hopefully.

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by que sais-je:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
The only dispute is who is the "we"-- is it some version of "Bible-believin' Christians" or people who "trust in/follow Jesus" or is it "good people" or do we take Jesus at his word and assume that he truly did die for the whole world?

I still prefer the option of just ceasing to exist. Is that still available?
Not really up to me, I'm not the one calling the shots. Thank God.

Can you conceive of a "new earth"-- reformed and recreated in such a way that an endless existence (even with the likes of me, or a reformed me) is not so dreary?

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que sais-je
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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Can you conceive of a "new earth"-- reformed and recreated in such a way that an endless existence (even with the likes of me, or a reformed me) is not so dreary?

Nope. The first billion billion billion billion billion billion billion years might be OK but that's 0% of the total. Follow that with a another billion billion ... years for every micro-second so far elapsed and you are still at 0% of the total.

A 'reformed me' who could face that prospect with delight would, I feel, be so unlike the current me that I cannot now think of it as 'me'. M2 (me, version 2) is either too different to imagine or not me. Of course if M2 is anything at all like me then endless paradise will be no worse than endless Hell.

The presence of almost all SoF members would help me though some of the ennui - and I'm sure you would be among them. The absence of a very few others would also help.

Would it be reasonable to ask for a moratorium on "I told you so!" after the first billion billion billion billion billion years?

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Lamb Chopped
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I doubt it's going to be a case of endless boring duration. From some of the hints in the Bible I suspect our experience of time itself will be changed--will be deeper, not just longer and stretched out to infinity. And since we're promised a new heavens and a new earth--a new creation, in fact--I don't see that we would be getting bored with it at all. Especially if we're given responsibility for part of it under God,* and the abilities to go with it. (me, I'd quite like to create a new ecosystem or similar, and can't imagine getting bored with an infinite workshop/playground very easily)

* wild speculation I know, but the parables which end up with the servants handed responsibility for part of the new king's government are very interesting to me.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by que sais-je:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Can you conceive of a "new earth"-- reformed and recreated in such a way that an endless existence (even with the likes of me, or a reformed me) is not so dreary?

Nope. The first billion billion billion billion billion billion billion years might be OK but that's 0% of the total. Follow that with a another billion billion ... years for every micro-second so far elapsed and you are still at 0% of the total.

A 'reformed me' who could face that prospect with delight would, I feel, be so unlike the current me that I cannot now think of it as 'me'. M2 (me, version 2) is either too different to imagine or not me. Of course if M2 is anything at all like me then endless paradise will be no worse than endless Hell.

The presence of almost all SoF members would help me though some of the ennui - and I'm sure you would be among them. The absence of a very few others would also help.

Would it be reasonable to ask for a moratorium on "I told you so!" after the first billion billion billion billion billion years?

Some Eastern religions see the eternal as the absence of time, which seems preferable to me to a very very long time. However, they also may say that this is available now, so maybe, heaven is. But this is also about ego, since it's the ego (presumably) which constructs a sense of time passing, via memory. Hence, one of the great Zen koans - there is no time, what is memory?

http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/Books/Tenzen/question6.htm

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