Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Bad guys
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
In another thread, Anglican_Brat wrote: quote: Cain, King Saul, and Job's friends, are known as the "bad characters of the Bible."
If I had to make a list of Biblical bad guys, I don't know that I would come up with that list. Before I thought of Cain, I might list Adam. I think Susannah's accusers would come to mind long before Saul. (There are many competitors, and it is a stiff competition.)
Who would you nominate as a Biblical bad guy? Can we make comparisons between them? Is Amnon worse than Absalom? While Onan is offputting, he doesn't seem as bad as Jephtha--or is Jephtha merely a fool? While no one especially likes Cain or Judas, how does Pontius Pilate rate? How about Belshazzar?
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Judas Iscariot, both Herods, Herodias, Pilate, Caiaphas, Jezebel, Haman, Athaliah, Manasseh, Antiochus .... there's plenty of them.
-------------------- Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
When discussing "bad guys" - especially in the OT - we always need to remember the old adage that "history is written by the winners."
In other words, those whom the Bible portrays as "bad guys" might just be "losers". For example, it seems quite likely that the negative portrayal of King Saul is, in part, down to the fact that the account was written by supporters of the Davidic monarchy, who would have had a vested interest in highlighting Saul's flaws in order to legitimise David.
If we take the OT purely on face value, there seems no denying that one of the all time "bad guys" is King Ahab. But I seem to remember reading somewhere (can I get any vaguer?!) that archaeological evidence hints that Ahab was actually a very successful ruler of the northern kingdom. This raises another factor to bring into the equation - often the OT historical books are written from a Southern Kingdom (Judah) perspective, which makes the Northern Kingdom (Israel) look bad as a matter of habit. It's a bit like expecting a history of South Korea, written by a North Korean government official, to be fair and balanced....
If you want pantomime baddies you can boo and hiss at, then Pharaoh would be a prime candidate. "Let my people go" "Oh no I won't!" "Oh yes you will!" "Oh no I won't!"
Another OT panto baddie would be Hamam the Agagite, in the book of Esther. For some reason, whenever I read Esther, I always imagine Hamam twirling his moustache, rubbing his hands and cackling like Shakespearean witch....
Moving into the NT, Ananias and Sapphira would be good nominations as well. They both drop down dead after lying and "sinning against the Holy Spirit". You can't get much badder than that, can you?
-------------------- Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
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Bob Two-Owls
Shipmate
# 9680
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Posted
God is pretty much the bad guy of the Old Testament. He doesn't like Egyptians or Canaanites much.
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Posted by Oscar: quote: "history is written by the winners."
I think it would be somewhat difficult to argue that Jesus 'won', but then I've always felt that statement had a strong whiff of the farmyard about it.
-------------------- 'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe' Staretz Silouan
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by fletcher christian: I think it would be somewhat difficult to argue that Jesus 'won'
Christus Victor, anyone?
-------------------- I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it. Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch: If you want pantomime baddies you can boo and hiss at, then Pharaoh would be a prime candidate. "Let my people go" "Oh no I won't!" "Oh yes you will!" "Oh no I won't!"
Another OT panto baddie would be Hamam the Agagite, in the book of Esther. For some reason, whenever I read Esther, I always imagine Hamam twirling his moustache, rubbing his hands and cackling like Shakespearean witch....
I am reminded of the Purim tradition of reading the Megillah (the Book of Esther) and using noise makers and hisses to drown out Haman's name every time it is said.
-------------------- The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Cottontail
Shipmate
# 12234
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Nick Tamen: quote: Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch: If you want pantomime baddies you can boo and hiss at, then Pharaoh would be a prime candidate. "Let my people go" "Oh no I won't!" "Oh yes you will!" "Oh no I won't!"
Another OT panto baddie would be Hamam the Agagite, in the book of Esther. For some reason, whenever I read Esther, I always imagine Hamam twirling his moustache, rubbing his hands and cackling like Shakespearean witch....
I am reminded of the Purim tradition of reading the Megillah (the Book of Esther) and using noise makers and hisses to drown out Haman's name every time it is said.
Is Haman a Grand Vizier? Coz we all know what they're like.
-------------------- "I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Bob Two-Owls!
-------------------- Love wins
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
How bad, bad when, bad to what effect?
Abraham lied, put his wife in jeopardy, and (if the story is believed literally) caused the perpetual battle between Jews and Arabs by not believing God was going to do exactly what God said.
David had a man killed to cover up his own adultery.
NT Saul vehemently persecuted the church, sending both men and women to prison.
Who are the good people?
But anyway, if these are "righteous" there's hope for us.
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Technically, it would be easier to name the one good guy since everyone else listed in the Bible are saint/sinners at the same time, as are we.
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Cottontail: quote: Originally posted by Nick Tamen: quote: Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch: If you want pantomime baddies you can boo and hiss at, then Pharaoh would be a prime candidate. "Let my people go" "Oh no I won't!" "Oh yes you will!" "Oh no I won't!"
Another OT panto baddie would be Hamam the Agagite, in the book of Esther. For some reason, whenever I read Esther, I always imagine Hamam twirling his moustache, rubbing his hands and cackling like Shakespearean witch....
I am reminded of the Purim tradition of reading the Megillah (the Book of Esther) and using noise makers and hisses to drown out Haman's name every time it is said.
Is Haman a Grand Vizier? Coz we all know what they're like.
HE'S BEHIND YOU!!
(Sorry. Couldn't resist that)
-------------------- Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Worse than them ALL is The Elephant In The Room everyone but Bob Two-Owls is ignoring. [ 12. July 2014, 11:59: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]
-------------------- Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
And?
And how so? [ 13. July 2014, 07:45: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]
-------------------- Love wins
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte: *Yawn* Marcionites, the both of you. *Yawn*
They've got a point though. A damned good one.
-------------------- Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Despite the fact we're not Marcionites. We're orthodox. We just see God ONLY through Christ. Not Abraham, Moses, Samuel.
-------------------- Love wins
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
But ya are, Blanche, ya are. Marcionite, that is. Or, at least you are exhibiting clear tendencies of the Marcionite variety.
Of course orthodox Christians sees God through the prophets Abraham, Moses, and Samuel. And, through the visible creation.¹
Karl:LB, you are right. Wrestling with the history of the OT can be a positive bitch. Hard work that. But, it doesn't mean we can cast God into the stereotypical role of divine meany. It means we need to sit with Job on his pile of shit and work things out. [ 14. July 2014, 03:44: Message edited by: The Silent Acolyte ]
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte: ¹=
*STARES IN AWE AT THIS INCREDIBLE USE OF CODE*
*APPLAUDS*
Carry on. -------- Oh, re Marcion, I'm a tad confused--is this a reference to something on another thread? I've not encountered Martin suggesting he doesn't believe God made the world because spiders/etc. are icky...
-------------------- My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
You win TSA. It's a fair cop. God is as accurately revealed in Abraham, Moses and Samuel is He is in Jesus. There is no progressive revelation, Jesus is just God's hippy magic mushroom holiday, there is no arc of the moral universe from the beginning, it's obvious as you say Paul says. And yeah I'm a gnostic Manichean dualist, God the demiurge is the Devil.
When are we going to get real Christian and burning witches, stoning kids or even better setting bears on them? As for GAYS?! Wahhhh-hooo!!!! Have we got us a neck-tie party!
In nukes we trust MO-hamed.
-------------------- Love wins
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Gramps49: Technically, it would be easier to name the one good guy since everyone else listed in the Bible are saint/sinners at the same time, as are we.
So is it a matter of degree of sin or amount of influence? If you have a lot of power in a country your sin is going to affect a darn sight more people and get into the history books.
What about out and out psychopaths who never once cared about anybody except themselves? There are bound to be some of those in the OT too - people who were able to act 'good' when it suited them, but were evil to the core.
-------------------- Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte: But ya are, Blanche, ya are. Marcionite, that is. Or, at least you are exhibiting clear tendencies of the Marcionite variety.
Of course orthodox Christians sees God through the prophets Abraham, Moses, and Samuel. And, through the visible creation.¹
Karl:LB, you are right. Wrestling with the history of the OT can be a positive bitch. Hard work that. But, it doesn't mean we can cast God into the stereotypical role of divine meany. It means we need to sit with Job on his pile of shit and work things out.
No, but after some decades of trying to wrestle with this I finally gave up trying to defend the indefensible, trying to declare grass to be blue and trying to see five fingers when clearly they were four, and cast some of the OT images of God into the "mistaken" pile.
-------------------- Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider: [I ] cast some of the OT images of God into the "mistaken" pile.
Karl:LB, now here I think you are on to something. This is what Job is forced to do: throw up his hands and say, "I dunno about it." Even though I'm a clever adult, that doesn't necessarily mean that I can fit everything into a nice neat little puzzle. There's a lot of stuff in this present life that God permits that I don't phreakin' understand. I guess it does satisfy my annoying little urge for universal consistency that that my lack of understanding for some of the things of this present life is mirrored in my lack of understanding for some of the things depicted in the OT.
Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard, I'm accusing you of the heresy of Marcion, not Mani. quote: Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard: When are we going to get real Christian and burning witches, stoning kids or even better setting bears on them? As for GAYS?! Wahhhh-hooo!!!! Have we got us a neck-tie party!
WTF does this even mean?
OBTW, "the arc of the moral universe" runs from the Garden to the Heavenly City.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte: quote: Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider: [I ] cast some of the OT images of God into the "mistaken" pile.
Karl:LB, now here I think you are on to something. This is what Job is forced to do: throw up his hands and say, "I dunno about it."
It goes a bit further. When I see laws about stoning children to death and instructions to go commit genocide, it's not "I don't understand." It's "This is wrong. God cannot have really said that and claim to be good."
-------------------- Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider: When I see laws about stoning children to death and instructions to go commit genocide, it's not "I don't understand." It's "This is wrong. God cannot have really said that and claim to be good."
Yes.
I understand those OT passages but agree they are plain wrong. People thought "God said" but God didn't.
It still happens today, but few people listen, thank the Lord.
-------------------- Garden. Room. Walk
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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by ChastMastr: quote: Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte: ¹=
*STARES IN AWE AT THIS INCREDIBLE USE OF CODE*
Clever, certainly, but also a bit of a pain for those who are supposed to check out links.
Please don't make links in your posts difficult to spot. Thanks.
Eliab Purgatory host
-------------------- "Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Boogie: quote: Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider: When I see laws about stoning children to death and instructions to go commit genocide, it's not "I don't understand." It's "This is wrong. God cannot have really said that and claim to be good."
Yes.
I understand those OT passages but agree they are plain wrong. People thought "God said" but God didn't.
It still happens today, but few people listen, thank the Lord.
Agreed. But you can't just have a blanket "God of the OT" which you then dismiss. The "God of the OT" includes the God described as a loving shepherd; as a God passionate about justice and defending the weak and the poor and so on.
There simply isn't a "God of the OT". The God of Joshua is repellent. But the God of some of the Psalms? The God of some of the prophets? Do we not see in such parts of the OT a gradual unveiling of the loving God revealed in the words and actions of Christ?
-------------------- Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
Perhaps the OT God is the same god but filtered through the eyes of a slightly different group of people.
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by HCH: Perhaps the OT God is the same god but filtered through the eyes of a slightly different group of people.
We have got to stop making apologies for God, the old bastard. Mr Damn has got a lot to answer for, like using people like pawns to make points and not showing up in places where he really should, and then just dropping in for fun. But I guess eternity ain't long enough to get around to all of it.
-------------------- Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety. \_(ツ)_/
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch: quote: Originally posted by Boogie: quote: Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider: When I see laws about stoning children to death and instructions to go commit genocide, it's not "I don't understand." It's "This is wrong. God cannot have really said that and claim to be good."
Yes.
I understand those OT passages but agree they are plain wrong. People thought "God said" but God didn't.
It still happens today, but few people listen, thank the Lord.
Agreed. But you can't just have a blanket "God of the OT" which you then dismiss. The "God of the OT" includes the God described as a loving shepherd; as a God passionate about justice and defending the weak and the poor and so on.
There simply isn't a "God of the OT". The God of Joshua is repellent. But the God of some of the Psalms? The God of some of the prophets? Do we not see in such parts of the OT a gradual unveiling of the loving God revealed in the words and actions of Christ?
Oh aye, but then you get accused of being a cafeteria Christian. Or only believing what you like. Inventing your own fake Jesus. That sort of guff. [ 14. July 2014, 19:53: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
-------------------- Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
TSA I've been in a hot tub after Côtes du Rhône and before a single malt but what it means is what it implies. The bible is not a flat cook book where any random recipe is as good as any other. If it were then we would have to reconcile genocide, homophobia, witch burning, war mongering with Jesus.
We don't.
-------------------- Love wins
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