 |
|
|
|
|
| |
|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Criticising Quiet, Respectable Churches?
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
I s'pose I've got this in mind in the 'Ecclesiology and anthropology' thread.
If we have an anthropology that suggests that everyone is damned unless they are offered a chance to repent and turn to Christ, then our ecclesial structures will reflect that - ie. they will be overtly evangelistic.
However, if our anthropology is such that we believe that the church should act as a benign force in society and that this forms part of its evangelism - then the kind of mums-and-toddlers groups run by other people but happening on our premises model is one that will develop.
Of course, I'd go for a both/and approach ... but that's for the other thread.
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
...And also, whether any particular structures can help or hinder that process?
This is almost exactly the title of the Masters dissertation I'm writing at the moment! So, I'll tell the definitive answer at the end of September, if that's okay...
And it's probably a separate thread, on which I'll chip in if you start one but I probably shouldn't get too distracted by it. I'm on a study day today.
--------------------
My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I visited our local URC recently and I was impressed by the obvious sense that this was a community that was sincere, full of integrity and seeking to live by its principles.
However, it didn't have the kind of immediate 'hit' you get from more evangelical charismatic forms of worship, still less the sense of mystery and the numinous.
If I was going to be harsh, I'd say it felt like a committee-meeting with hymns.
The minister had written the communion liturgy and it felt like a lecture ...
Yes, I know what you mean. I think that is quite generally true of churches in the Reformed tradition which tend to decry the visual, sensory and emotional aspects of worship and emphasise the intellectual. The result can inevitably be "worthy", rational and wordy, but unexciting. It also puts a great onus on the "performance" of the leader and preacher (who may or may not be the same person) to "lift" the service - the liturgy itself will probably not be able to do this.
We live in a much more "emotional" and "feelings" age which may well mean that this style of worship - however much it may satisfy me personally - will not give a spiritual "hit" to many people.
(Would have written this earlier but the phone rang!)
[ 18. July 2014, 10:42: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
Yes, Baptist Trainfan, but at the same time this particular church DOES try to engage with the visual, the artistic and cultural etc etc ...
I've given a poetry reading there alongside some other local poets based around some sculptures produced by a Christian sculptor whose work was exhibited there over Lent.
So, on one level, this particular URC congregation does attempt to take a more 'holistic' approach.
I s'pose it could be seen as a bit bolt-on, though, rather than embedded within the liturgy and service-styles themselves.
@South Coast Kevin - yes, I'd be interested in the definitive answer in your thesis.
Intriguingly, Justin Lewis-Anthony, the chap I cite on the other thread on Ecclesiology and Anthropology doesn't rate Viola. He sees him as outside the 'mainstream' of Christian scholarship ' - we are not talking mainstream Christian scholarship here!' he quips in a footnote.
It's prefaced, 'With the greatest respect to ... Mr Viola ...' which, of course, is short-hand for, 'Without any respect whatsoever for Mr Viola ...'
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
The context is Viola's claim, echoing Austin-Sparks of the Honor Oak Fellowship, that:
'We cannot obtain anything in our New Testament as the result of human study, research or reason. It is all the Holy Spirit's revelation of Jesus Christ.'
Mr Viola, he says, would not approve of his (Lewis-Anthony's) own book on church ministry ...
Ok, so there could be some smug intellectualising going on here, but Lewis-Anthony regards Viola and others as promoting ideas 'in which anti-intellectualism becomes the defining NT marker of an authentic church.'
I think there's something in this. However, as Baptist Trainfan reminds us, the classical Reformed tradition can run to the opposite error and reduce worship and preaching to some kind of academic exercise, the presentation of a set of propositions that are to be apprehended intellectually.
In some Baptist circles I've heard what I call 'tick-box' prayers. I find myself listening to them an thinking, 'Right, we've had the atonement ... [tick] ... we've had the Incarnation ... [tick] ... we've had the need for us to be doers of the word and not hearers only [tick] ... we've had ...' etc.
The Orthodox Liturgy is pedagogic - it's essentially a 3D representation of historic Creedal Christianity as apprehended in the Eastern section of the Roman Empire. But somehow it transcends that ... although they'll readily admit that it can be florid and turgid in places.
I think that both Reformed and MoTR forms of worship can be transcendent too ... but they've got to try a lot harder in order to achieve that.
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Intriguingly, Justin Lewis-Anthony, the chap I cite on the other thread on Ecclesiology and Anthropology doesn't rate Viola. He sees him as outside the 'mainstream' of Christian scholarship ' - we are not talking mainstream Christian scholarship here!' he quips in a footnote.
I'm not all that bothered about whether this or that person is outside 'mainstream Christian scholarship', however...
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Ok, so there could be some smug intellectualising going on here, but Lewis-Anthony regards Viola and others as promoting ideas 'in which anti-intellectualism becomes the defining NT marker of an authentic church.'
I have recently been coming to the view that Viola's approach is somewhat anti-intellectual, rather than merely putting intellectualism in its right place, in harmony with revelation from the Holy Spirit. I think the approach of people like Greg Boyd, Alan Hirsch, Brian McLaren and Neil Cole (not saying these people agree with each other, not at all) is significantly more rigorous and intellectually sound.
--------------------
My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
On the preaching thing. If we are accepting the MoTR-ness of Methodism and the URCs - then I'm not sure it follows that the preaching in such churches is necessarily mediocre or gives an impression of 'take-it-or-leave-it'.
The last few times I've heard Methodist or URC preachers I've come away with the impression that these are people of genuine conviction and integrity, who seek to live by what they preach and teach.
There might be an element among the congregations though, of, 'Oh, that's the minister, they are supposed to be like that.'
Or even, 'They are supposed to be like that on our behalf ...'
Which is sometimes the way Anglican vicars are viewed - the word 'vicar' itself implying such a thing perhaps. I don't need to do religion because there's someone living in the rectory or vicarage who is paid to do it on my behalf ...
To an extent I think we've all been innoculated against too much religion, as it were ...
And that applies both to MoTR and more full-on settings.
Being genuine, having conviction and integrity, seeking to live by the preaching and teaching, are all necessary components of leadership, I agree. There may also in some cases be a sense of status and entitlement which attaches self confidence to the words said or written in such away that it leaves out the humility of seeking God's guidance through the Holy Spirit, and being sure that God's will is being done.
3 pictures:
Unless God is the architect, the builders labour in vain.
It's natural for people to keep trying to be in control, to go our own way and to try to harness God. God won't be harnessed.
Our own recipes will only ever give us mediocre results.
--------------------
Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
@South Coast Kevin - yes, fair enough.
@Raptor Eye, I'm not sure that cases where there's a sense of status and entitlement only applies to MoTR or 'respectable' churches.
That's a danger, surely, in any church?
As for the humility of seeking God's guidance by the Holy Spirit ... some of those who make the most noise about doing such a thing seem the least humble to me.
I've heard of an instance where a charismatic vicar suddenly left the meal table saying that he'd been prompted to ring a certain individual ... only to come back crestfallen a minute or two later saying that the phone was engaged.
How do we ensure that God's will is being done?
How do we know that we are being guided by the Holy Spirit?
How can we tell - in any fool-proof, 100% cast-iron way that the fruit of our labours is based on a God-given 'recipe' as you put it?
I'm sorry, but this all sounds like overly pious cant to me.
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
@Raptor Eye, I'm not sure that cases where there's a sense of status and entitlement only applies to MoTR or 'respectable' churches.
That's a danger, surely, in any church?
As for the humility of seeking God's guidance by the Holy Spirit ... some of those who make the most noise about doing such a thing seem the least humble to me.
I've heard of an instance where a charismatic vicar suddenly left the meal table saying that he'd been prompted to ring a certain individual ... only to come back crestfallen a minute or two later saying that the phone was engaged.
How do we ensure that God's will is being done?
How do we know that we are being guided by the Holy Spirit?
How can we tell - in any fool-proof, 100% cast-iron way that the fruit of our labours is based on a God-given 'recipe' as you put it?
I'm sorry, but this all sounds like overly pious cant to me.
Yes, the status thing might and does apply elsewhere, but it may well be one of the reasons that motr churches are lacking something.
I do agree that some people are ready to make a big deal about their guidance from the Holy Spirit, which might loudly point to themselves rather than quietly indicate the Holy Spirit.
I've seen your story about the phone call before. If the phone was engaged, it doesn't necessarily imply that the prompting was false. In fact, it might affirm it, if more than one person were prompted to contact someone in need.
To answer your questions:
We know whether Gods will is being done by the results, and sometimes by affirmation given to us by God. The latter may come in various forms, as we might expect.
We can't tell 100%, nor should we, as there always must be room for human error. But as we learn to listen to God's guidance through the Holy Spirit and recognise God's promptings, we may put them into practice and see the results, i.e. ever more evidence of the fruit of the spirit seen in greater numbers of people.
I don't know why you have a problem with piety. Surely devotion to God is required so that we serve God humbly.
--------------------
Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
I don't have a problem with piety, Raptor Eye. I have a problem with pietism and super-spirituality.
And I have a problem with the kind of special pleading that suggests that the minister in the story was responding to the prompting of the Holy Spirit rather than indigestion, hubris or simply too much cheese the night before ...
But our respective mileages might vary.
If the prompting of the Spirit had been genuine then would the guy have needed to act in such a 'look at me, I'm responding to the Holy Spirit and coming to the rescue as God's man of faith and power for the hour' kind of way?
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
Also, I still fail to see how power and status are more of an issue in MoTR churches than they might be in more 'committed' or non-MoTR churches.
On the Catholic side the non-MoTR churches can suffer from a 'father knows best' attitude.
On the charismatic evangelical non-MoTR side they can suffer from an 'elder/pastor knows best' attitude.
I really don't see how the status thing is more prominent in one and not the other. It could apply equally to both MoTR and non-MoTR settings.
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
What does a 'yearning for God' actually look like? How can we measure it? How can we 'bottle' it - if we were to think of it in those terms?
Does a 'yearning for God' necessarily imply religious 'enthusiasm' of the kind the evangelical charismatics specialise in?
What does it mean to 'abandon ourselves' to such a thing and what impact would that have on our structures?
We can have a 'yearning for God' but we've still got to heat and maintain the buildings, run the circuits, parishes, dioceses etc - if we have such things.
If we don't and have apparently looser, congregational structures, then these take a heck of a long of work and energy to maintain - however simple we try to make them.
Firstly, I don't think you can put a 'yearning for God' in a bottle and sell it! If you could, it would already be done! And you probably can't define it too closely. It's more a case of 'I'll know it when I see it'.
Also, if highly intentional church communities are hard work it should be said that maintaining church structures is also very hard work, and fewer and fewer churchgoers want to participate in it. I don't think the outcomes are considered to be worth the effort required. This is more of a problem in Nonconformity than in the CofE, I think. Anglicans on this website don't seem to complain that getting people do 'do things' in church is hard, whereas Methodist church leaders routinely complain about this. It's practically part of the job description.
quote:
So ... given your average, bog-standard MoTR congregation, then. People who don't want to be put-out any more than they are being ... who pootle along running the sorts of things that any church needs to run itself - how do we create a 'yearning for the wide, blue ocean'?
What can we do to encourage that without:
- Creating a holy huddle of a few 'keenies' who eventually burn themselves out?
- Emulating techniques and practices from other traditions that might be alien and inappropriate in such a setting?
- Coming across as too heavenly-minded to be of any earthly use?
Not much will happen if congregations just want to stay as they are. You can't cajole people into changing (or perhaps you can if you're a very unusual breed of minister or preacher, but do we want more of those?) But I suppose that those MOTR churches that already benefit from good resources, are in nice areas, have access to desirable schools, exist in small, close-knit communities where newcomers feel they have to join the church in order to belong, and offer pleasant opportunities to network at a high level professionally and socially, will continue to offer something that people see as beneficial. Any combination of these factors will help, I should think. The Holy Spirit is working in these churches, I'm sure.
The prognosis for Nonconformist MOTR churches in particular is poor otherwise. Since the CofE has more resources, perhaps its future will involve investing more heavily in FEs, maybe even allowing tiny MOTR congregations to die in the meantime, because it's often easier to create enthusiasm and commitment in new ventures than to convince people in established churches to reinvent themselves. I can't see how the Methodists and the URC will have the people or the funds to do this on a greater scale than is currently happening, and in the meantime they're closing far more churches.
Interestingly, if CofE evangelical congregations have influence out of proportion to their numbers - and so presumably on MOTR congregations as well - this seems not to be the case in Methodism. The 'Methodist Recorder' doesn't highlight 'evangelical' congregations and analyse the pros and cons of their influence. Cliff College is known to have something of an evangelical identity, but it hasn't become the evangelical 'voice' of Methodism (and indeed, it's website hardly mentions the Methodist Church). I doubt that many Methodists in the circuit here could even name a Methodist evangelical congregation if asked. As a result it seems unlikely that MOTR Methodism is going to 'learn' from evangelicals.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
Of course I don't believe that we can 'bottle' these things ... it was a figure of speech.
On the differences between the Methodists and Anglicans on this score, I think one of the key differences is that many evangelical Methodists jumped ship a while back. There are still independent Methodist churches in the North of England that aren't part of the 'official' Methodist body.
Whereas, for whatever reason, evangelical Anglicans have managed to stay put in larger numbers - even if, like the Reform lot they disparage episcopacy and dioceses ...
Or, like the charismatics they take a pick-and-mix approach to which aspects of Anglicanism they run with and which they can conveniently ignore.
I think the decline of MoTR 'non-conformity' is a sad one - but I'm not sure there's one single ro simple reason for it.
It's not as if the services are particularly inaccessible, for instance.
I suspect it's partly because they don't deliver an immediate 'hit' in the way that evangelical or charismatic churches do.
Let's face it, if you go to a church and people are waving their arms around or engaging in bizarre behaviour such as lighting candles and kissing icons then it's a pretty good indicator that these people believe something rather out of the ordinary ...
If you go to a service where people sing hymns rather decorously and someone in a suit or Geneva gown lectures at you about how important it is for us to all love one another - then you're not going to get the same kind of impression.
But there'll be much more to it than that.
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
|
Posted
Perhaps the answer is that MOTR churches can come across as demanding little or nothing of you beyond attendance.
Perhaps those attending evangelical churches do so because they relate to the way things are done and at a time when there's a lot of pick and choosing, there's a stability in evangelical certainties. It may be a life cycle stage thing.
No one seems to have picked my point up from earlier: Jesus wasn't considered respectable in His own day - why do we strive to be so and to keep those churches which value this above everything else? Isn't a better mark of God's respect to be hated, not accepted, by the world?
[ 19. July 2014, 06:27: Message edited by: ExclamationMark ]
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
Yes, I think there's a lot in that, ExclamationMark.
I think it is partly a life-cycle stage thing, too. When I was a single young man churchy things occupied almost all my waking hours outside of work.
These days, I'm involved with a lot more things and church is one among various commitments/involvements.
I probably attend church services less than I have ever done since my evangelical conversion at the age of 19.
And I'm certainly not involved with house-groups, prayer meetings and the like.
On the aspect of the churches being prophetic gadflies, not being 'respectable' and so on ... it strikes me that in their different ways both the liberal and evangelical ends of things are rolling with the zeitgeist and both are wedded to the Spirit of the Age.
Both run the risk of being widowed to it in the next.
On a practical level, I'm intrigued as to what we would have to do, ExclamationMark, to be hated rather than respected (or ignored) by the World?
Indifference seems the default position of the unchurched and 'the World' if you like.
It's the old thing about, 'If I help the poor I'm considered a Saint, if I ask why there are poor in the first place I'm considered a Communist.'
If churches (of whatever stripe) support same-sex marriage or women bishops or some other cause that may be considered 'trendy' and liberal, then that gets the thumbs-up from trendy liberals but the thumbs-down from conservatives.
Conversely, if churches take a very conservative line on various DH issues they are seen as out of touch and irrelevant.
Nobody objects if churches run soup-runs or foodbanks (other than certain very Conservative types who think that anyone accessing such services must be some kind of feckless scrounger).
And MoTR churches are involved in these initiatives just as evangelical ones are.
I don't think that MoTR churches 'strive' to be respected or respectable. What I think happens is that they become so by default - and also because they want to avoid the kind of extremes that occur at the more 'committed' end of things.
I think you're right that we need to be distinctive and demonstrate values that are at odds with 'the world' as it were ...
But I'd be interested in practical suggestions on how we might achieve that.
Being deliberately arsey isn't going to get us very far.
Also, other than arcane forms of religious discourse, there's nothing particularly distinctive about what we do.
For instance, church people went on the anti-Iraq War March. So did humanists, atheists, communists, Buddhists, Muslims, people of all faiths and none ...
What was so distinctive about the church's contribution on that issue?
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
If churches (of whatever stripe) support same-sex marriage or women bishops or some other cause that may be considered 'trendy' and liberal, then that gets the thumbs-up from trendy liberals but the thumbs-down from conservatives.
Conversely, if churches take a very conservative line on various DH issues they are seen as out of touch and irrelevant.
And if you are being criticised by both sides simultaneously there is a good chance that you may be doing something right.
--------------------
Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
I would agree EM and Gamaliel. It's hard to build community in a church where showing up on a Sunday is the only requirement. In the MOTR-A-C churches I usually attend (I identify as A-C but don't always live where there are any - no longer living in Northampton) there's very little going on during the rest of the week except things aimed at very specific groups eg parent and toddler groups, uniformed groups, Mother's Union, choir etc. No home group/cell group except in Lent, no church weekends away etc etc - while I wouldn't go back to that type of church, evangelical churches I've attended before always had so many things you could join in with and therefore things that helped build community. A weekly Eucharist is not exactly individualistic but you can't discuss things except at the end over bad coffee - whereas a cafe church Eucharist would make a big difference. MOTR churches often hold classical concerts or organ recitals, but it's hard to build community when you're sitting there quietly listening to quite a niche form of music.
--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
Sure. There's always a pay-off and nowhere's perfect.
Every rose has got a thorn and the taller you are, the longer the shadow you cast. And, as the African proverb delightfully goes, the higher the monkey climbs up the tree the more you can see its arse.
The downside of many MoTR or more sacramental churches can be the lack of a sense of community.
With some of the more full-on charismatic evangelical churches the community aspect can be overwhelming or suffocating ...
There's got to be a balance somewhere.
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
And if you are being criticised by both sides simultaneously there is a good chance that you may be doing something right.
Fallacy of the excluded middle, I think.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Of course I don't believe that we can 'bottle' these things ... it was a figure of speech.
Of course it's a figure of speech, and I assumed that you were trying to make some kind of a point by employing it. For example, sometimes churches are accused of looking for a pre-packaged quick fix to help them overcome the problems they have. My response was made with that kind of thinking in mind. Otherwise, I don't know what you were getting at.
quote:
There are still independent Methodist churches in the North of England that aren't part of the 'official' Methodist body.
The Independent Methodists have joined the Baptist Union, I believe. But I was thinking about the evangelicals that have remained within the parent body. For example, there's the Headway group that began in the 80s and is now known as Methodist Evangelicals Together. But if you're not part of a circuit that has any kind of openly evangelical presence you won't know much if anything about this group. That bespeaks a lack of Methodist evangelical influence.
Rev. Rob Frost (d. 2007) is the big name I'd heard of with regards to recent Methodist evangelicalism, but I don't know to what extent he made waves within MOTR Methodism. Hardly at all in the circuit here, I should think.
quote:
I think the decline of MoTR 'non-conformity' is a sad one - but I'm not sure there's one single or simple reason for it.
It's not as if the services are particularly inaccessible, for instance.
What's spiritually helpful to one person may be spiritually 'inaccessible' to another. Nonconformist MOTR worship suffers from a 'middleness' that isn't even subversively hybrid or interstitial in the postmodern fashion. It's not distinctive enough to be 'accessible' in a world where you have to be able to create a buzz to get people's attention.
I agree with the comments made here that MOTR road churches expect too little in terms of spiritual engagement. However, I should perhaps mention a successful venture developed by one circuit I know. 'Heretics Anonymous' is a forum in which Methodists (and others) can meet up to discuss aspects of the faith that they find difficult to accept. The concept could be adapted for the CofE and other denominations.
Ultimately I think the Methodist Church and URC are going to be reabsorbed by the CofE, which has the appeal, the resources and the cultural heritage to tolerate high levels of a MOTR ethos without being completely dominated by it. Mergers don't halt church decline, of course, but at least the smaller churches will have access to CofE money and expertise.
BTW, is the CofE showing signs of wanting to develop more FEs? Maybe they represent the future of MOTR worship.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
1. Being deliberately arsey isn't going to get us very far.
2. Also, other than arcane forms of religious discourse, there's nothing particularly distinctive about what we do.
1. Oh well, I don't know - depends whose buttons you push and what about ....
2. I agree totally
3. Practical suggestions ..... a few for starters. Depends how off the wall you want to be
in this neck of the words there are 2 sitting MP's with small majorities - numerically small enough to be shifted by the number of people attending churches in the town. Get together and put out a manifesto for the politicians to adhere to our don't vote for them: this manifesto to recognise people not problems or issues
Ditto the town councillors (much smaller shifts required)
Food bank great but it's pretty acceptable.
Churches to work together: look at existing fellowships - are there are money drains that won't ever turn the corner? Close and sell. Make giving to diocescan/central funds not mandatory but voluntary based on real need and funds available
put the same energy into helping others as we do for fund raising and maintenance
Strive for town wide acceptance of living wages not just minimum wages. Begin with the big employers e.g the Council
Embrace the needs of the travelling community, asylum seekers, the trafficked teenagers I see on street corners at night. Walk on the streets, talk to them, buy them coffee - look in the eyes of an eastern European teenager waiting to be picked and tell her that she is loved. See in those eyes your own daughter: see Christ.
Be generous with everything with have
Grace - no other religion has it
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Holy Smoke
Shipmate
# 14866
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
The downside of many MoTR or more sacramental churches can be the lack of a sense of community. With some of the more full-on charismatic evangelical churches the community aspect can be overwhelming or suffocating ...
I'd guess that there is some sort of social class issue here - there is a certain stratum in society that looks towards an organization such as a church to provide social network and community. Go a bit 'higher', and people tend to form their own networks of friends, centred on the private social group, not on any sort of public organization - even if the people they meet at church happen to form part of that network. Hence, even at church, they would naturally socialize with their own social group, rather than identify with and socialize with the generic member of the congregation.
I may be over-generalizing, but it's my impression that it's the non-conformist and evangelical churches that fall more into the first category, and the MotR Anglican (at least in England) that falls into the second.
Posts: 335 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
Sorry Holy Smoke, I don't agree with that analysis at all.
On the whole, the church is pretty middle-class here in the UK - other than in ethnically-defined circles.
There are some exceptions, but not many.
@ExclamationMark ... interesting suggestions. I'm uncomfortable with the one about developing a critical-mass in order get MPs in marginal seats to conform ... that sounds rather like blackmail to me and rather the sort of tactics that US Tea Party and Religious Right activists use.
I'm sure that's not what you are suggesting at all, though.
The other examples, about reaching out to migrants, asylum seekers and people who're being trafficked ... well, yes - but I don't think that'll get you a great deal of opprobrium.
Sure, the UKIP crowd might have something to say, but I don't think most people - other than the most avowedly racist - would have any problems at all with churches trying to treat people on the margins of society as real human beings ...
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
I once heard an Imam give a talk in which he alluded to the claim that only Christianity has a concept of grace.
His Anglican vicar friend had pointed this out to him. So he went away and thought about it. He'd come to the conclusion that Islam did in fact have a concept of grace and he gave some examples from Islamic teachings to back this up ...
Whether this would have passed muster as far as you or other Shipmates are concerned is a different issue - but he'd clearly thought about it deeply and been able to find parallels and possible equivalents.
All that said, whether or not grace is a distinctively Christian concept or can be found in other forms elsewhere, we still need to demonstrate it.
@SvitlanaV2. I hadn't realised Rob Frost had died.
He was quite well known across evangelical circles in general ... perhaps more so than in his own Methodist context.
I hadn't realised that all the Independent Methodists had been absorbed by the Baptist Union. I could certainly see some going in that direction - or towards the FIEC (Fellowship of Independent Evangelical Churches) - but on the whole, I suspect the FIEC would be rather too Calvinistic for them.
Are you sure there aren't any who remain independent?
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
According to Martyn Percy, the 'Independent Methodists' in the northwest of England are a denomination in their own right, and they're the ones with the BU connection. If you're talking about 'independent' Methodist congregations that have no connection with anyone else, I suppose there are some. But the Methodist inclination is probably towards being part of some larger body.
A few years ago I read about this northern Methodist church, which had decided to break away from its circuit, hence becoming independent. I don't know if it's linked up with some other body now. The interesting thing is that this (not very MOTR) church was already operating fairly independently of the circuit, but this wasn't enough in the end. A MOTR church is obviously easier to control than the alternatives, so from an institutional point of view I can see why MOTR would be preferable.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
1. I'm uncomfortable with the one about developing a critical-mass in order get MPs in marginal seats to conform ... that sounds rather like blackmail to me and rather the sort of tactics that US Tea Party and Religious Right activists use. I'm sure that's not what you are suggesting at all, though.
2. The other examples, about reaching out to migrants, asylum seekers and people who're being trafficked ... well, yes - but I don't think that'll get you a great deal of opprobrium.
1. Laughs - certainly not in Tea Party mode. More making a point about local issues
2. Mmmmm not my experience I'm afraid - previously in a rural and now in an urban context. The local council just don't get it ..... the MP's didn't either until suddenly an election is on the horizon.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I hadn't realised that all the Independent Methodists had been absorbed by the Baptist Union. I could certainly see some going in that direction - or towards the FIEC (Fellowship of Independent Evangelical Churches) - but on the whole, I suspect the FIEC would be rather too Calvinistic for them.
They weren't absorbed - they approached BUGB to seek an understanding. They remain free - as do all BUGB churches - to express their faith in their own. There's no central control - only an assent to governance and a particular mode of baptism
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
I didn't use the team 'absorbed' to imply some kind of nefarious take-over, ExclamationMark, although I can see how you might take the term in a 'loaded' way.
I suppose a term like 'are now affiliated to the Baptist Union' would have been better.
I s'pose I used the term because I was thinking how most of the various offshoots from mainstream Methodism during the 19th century were gradually absorbed back into the parent body - a process that continued up until around 1930 I understand.
So groups like the New Connexion and the Primitive Methodists were all eventually subsumed back into the 'mainstream' Methodist Church.
From what I can gather, this is unusual both ecclesiologically and sociologically.
Generally, splinter groups continue to expand or spiral ... or become even more fissaporous.
We may well see some of the denominations that came out of Anglicanism gradually being absorbed back into the CofE at some point - the Methodists and URCs seem prime candidates for this at some point.
But who knows?
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Generally, splinter groups continue to expand or spiral ... or become even more fissaporous.
This seems to have been the case for Methodists in the USA especially, but in the UK I imagine that most of the different Methodist groups here had reached exhaustion by the 1930s, and had nowhere else to go. Also, the splits weren't always for theological reasons, so the barriers between them were low from that perspective. The sociological divisions between them were also flattening out.
quote:
We may well see some of the denominations that came out of Anglicanism gradually being absorbed back into the CofE at some point - the Methodists and URCs seem prime candidates for this at some point.
But who knows?
Steve Bruce famously predicted that the British Methodist Church would fold as a separate denomination in 2031. You might think this was presumptuous of him, but a recent President of Conference openly pronounced a merger with the CofE to be a desirable goal. It's certainly an outcome that some Methodists have been committed to for a long time.
I don't know if the URC has been engaged in 'talks' with the CofE, but an Anglican theologian I know thinks a merger with some other denomination is probable, or else the URC will just cease to exist. I would have liked the URC and the Methodist Church to consider merging with each other, but that idea seems to have fizzled out a long time ago.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
Yes, here where I live the URC congregation are having some discussions about their future and whether their church is still viable.
From the outside, it seems obvious that they ought to seek some kind of merger with the Methodists, but I daresay it doesn't look quite as simple as that from the inside ...
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
|
Posted
Here the URC and Methodist church are on the same circuit and have same minister (who has something like 11 churches). They both have amazing buildings but not huge congregations. The URC is very much part of the local CTBI group, but the Methodists aren't. Part of the URC building is the oldest church building in the town and has been rebuilt to make it a useful building, let out to other groups. The Methodist church building is very distinctive, recently restored, and is where the pre-school, art society and other groups meet.
This has knock on effects. A few years back a huge funeral (of a friend) was held in the Methodist church with people spilling on to the street, whereas a funeral about the same time of a RC soldier killed in Afghanistan borrowed the bigger CofE church building to hold the service - with support and assistance of the CofE. The CofE church would have willingly supported this friend's funeral as one of the last pieces of work this friend did was restoration work on a tablet in the CofE building.
--------------------
Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
1. I didn't use the team 'absorbed' to imply some kind of nefarious take-over, ExclamationMark, although I can see how you might take the term in a 'loaded' way.
2. We may well see some of the denominations that came out of Anglicanism gradually being absorbed back into the CofE at some point - the Methodists and URCs seem prime candidates for this at some point.
3. But who knows?
1. I didn't take it like that but it does need pointing out that the approach came first from the Methodist side. Most were/are pretty Baptist like in government and baptismal practice.
There's also the Wesleyan Reform Union which again is very baptistic in approach and government. My daughter attends one in Northants and it's very much like the church here.
2. I agree but I do suspect it's borne out of desperation on the part of the URC and Methodist. Both seem to be in free fall in the areas I know - if you're MOTR you tend to go to the Anglican MOTR these days.
The few remaining congregational churches may go the house church/community church route or the more reformed will go to FIEC.
3. Er, God?
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Yes, here where I live the URC congregation are having some discussions about their future and whether their church is still viable.
From the outside, it seems obvious that they ought to seek some kind of merger with the Methodists, but I daresay it doesn't look quite as simple as that from the inside ...
1. The URC "Mission Council" meets from time to time together with Methodist Council, with a view to facilitating relationships. But the Methodists also have a toe in the Anglican pool.
2. In Scotland, the URC is "unbalanced" as it basically consists of former Congregational churches (except the ones that stayed in the Congregational Federation). Logically it would gain balance by joining with the United Free Church of Scotland (Continuing) - not the "Wee Frees"! - but I can't see that happening anytime soon. Quite apart from structural differences, the UFCoS probably wouldn't think that the Methodists were evangelical enough.
3. The URC, Baptists, Methodists already have a "Joint Public Issues Team" which comments on suitable issues (drones, foodbanks etc.) Sometimes they are joined by the Church of Scotland. The Baptists and the URC also share a Safeguarding Officer.
4. The URC loves taking part in Local Ecumenical Churches. Here most of those are with Methodists, but there are also one or two with Anglicans or Baptists, and one which is a five-way church!
[ 20. July 2014, 15:17: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I don't know if the URC has been engaged in 'talks' with the CofE.
Not that I know of, but I'm not really "in the know".
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Here the URC and Methodist church are on the same circuit and have same minister (who has something like 11 churches). They both have amazing buildings but not huge congregations. The URC is very much part of the local CTBI group, but the Methodists aren't.
Eleven churches? Goodness me!
You don't need to give any revealing details, of course, but can you say why the Methodists aren't members of Churches Together? If they share a minister with the URC they're clearly part of an ecumenical arrangement already, so I'm not sure why they'd refuse to be part of CT.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
|
Posted
The Methodists are members of the local Churches Together, in theory, they just never come along to any meetings or get involved at all.
--------------------
Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
From the outside, it seems obvious that they ought to seek some kind of merger with the Methodists, but I daresay it doesn't look quite as simple as that from the inside ...
There is a brand new URC/Methodist Church in our town ( building and services shared).
--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
|
Posted
It would be interesting to know if the two denominations are equal legal partners in this, especially in respect of the building. Our church is URC/Baptist but the building is wholly URC and we have had difficulties in getting our Manse to "belong" to both denominations.
Often one denomination has to "lead" in LEPs, largely due to obsolete Government legislation (from 1969!)
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
2. We may well see some of the denominations that came out of Anglicanism gradually being absorbed back into the CofE at some point - the Methodists and URCs seem prime candidates for this at some point.
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
2. I agree but I do suspect it's borne out of desperation on the part of the URC and Methodist. Both seem to be in free fall in the areas I know - if you're MOTR you tend to go to the Anglican MOTR these days.
The few remaining congregational churches may go the house church/community church route or the more reformed will go to FIEC.
Denominational mergers are usually borne out of decline; strong institutions don't give up their autonomy easily, whether on a local or national level. In the Methodist case, I think there's also a strong sense that joining up with the CofE again is what John Wesley would have wanted.
I know of an evangelical Congregational church quite near to where I live. I don't think the congregation has ever been large, but it has a strong sense of self, and a younger age profile than most of the local indigenous churches. Whichever Edwardian built it had the foresight to keep the design fairly simple, and also to put a shop on the ground floor, which is now the church charity shop. This church has obviously had a rather different trajectory from the MOTR URC congregation I mentioned above, even though they both started life as Congregational churches at about the same time and in fairly close proximity to each other.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
From the outside, it seems obvious that they ought to seek some kind of merger with the Methodists, but I daresay it doesn't look quite as simple as that from the inside ...
There is a brand new URC/Methodist Church in our town ( building and services shared).
This happens a lot - but there's a difference between local congregations merging and the national denominations merging. What's joyfully promoted as fellowship and unity at the local level doesn't inspire quite so much enthusiasm at the top.....
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I once heard an Imam give a talk in which he alluded to the claim that only Christianity has a concept of grace.
His Anglican vicar friend had pointed this out to him.
Of course grace is exclusive.
It is exclusively from God.
Whether or not other religions can have a concept of grace is not something we need to worry about, there are lots of things Christians and Muslims (and Jews and Hindus and jains and...) agree about, this could be another of them.
--------------------
Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
Sure, but I don't think we'll be seeing many synagogue/church or mosque/church mergers any time soon ...
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I once heard an Imam give a talk in which he alluded to the claim that only Christianity has a concept of grace.
His Anglican vicar friend had pointed this out to him.
Of course grace is exclusive.
It is exclusively from God.
Whether or not other religions can have a concept of grace is not something we need to worry about, there are lots of things Christians and Muslims (and Jews and Hindus and jains and...) agree about, this could be another of them.
Judaism is all about grace.
Islam is all about mercy.
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Islam is all about mercy.
Quite. A theology of works not grace
[code]
[ 22. July 2014, 09:52: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
|
Posted
Yes, but the worship spaces will still be separate, albeit with a communal central space. This brings three faiths under one roof, I think it emphasises both their essential unity and their distinctive differences.
I wonder though how things would have worked out if it had been suggested that one of the faiths involved was not an Abrahamic religion.
[ 22. July 2014, 17:06: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
A lot is said about interfaith engagement, but it doesn't seem to be at a very interesting level in the UK these days, despite the importance (or so we're told) of pick 'n' mix spirituality in the culture. The Unitarian Universalists in the USA apparently invite people from different faiths to contribute to their worship, but I've never heard of the Unitarians in the UK doing any such thing, let alone the more mainstream churches. Maybe this is a role that the 'quiet, respectable' churches could take on in the future as a way of addressing rising ethno-religious tensions.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
I'm wondering how the idea for the German multifaith house of worship came about, and where they got the money from.... Interestingly, there happens to be a church in Scotland that local Muslims have been allowed to share out of neighbourlyness. The bishop thinks it could be a role model for others churches.
I think very few 'quiet, respectable churches' would have the money to contribute towards a brand new multifaith house of worship. As for sharing an existing building, that would have financial implications too. Most church buildings become mosques because the Christian members have become too few in number and can no longer pay for the upkeep of the building. One option would be for the Christians only to sell the building to a Muslim group on condition that they could still use it for Christian worship. Alternatively, Christians who've lost or are losing their building could approach local mosques to ask about renting the premises on Sundays. This isn't such a far-fetched idea in inner city areas where there are more mosques and Muslims than there are churches and Christians.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
|
Posted
Don't know if this qualifies as true 'sharing' but back in 1969 a parish in St Albans diocese had a sharing arrangement with one of its buildings for a new synagogue to be formed. Even before this, the same parish pushed through the faculty process for the dismantling of a trust for a parcel of land that had been given with the intention of building a daughter church, with attendant buildings for a curate, hall, etc. The land became the basis for what is one of the UK's largest Jewish cemeteries.
When the synagogue outgrew the original church building the parish was very supportive with the planning application for a much larger dedicated synagogue complex, the building of which had attracted some local resistance...
This was (and is) an ultra 'quiet, respectable' parish.
--------------------
Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Pages in this thread: 1 2 3 4 5
|
Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement
© Ship of Fools 2016
UBB.classicTM
6.5.0
|
|
|
|
|
| |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
