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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Criticising Quiet, Respectable Churches?
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
According to Martyn Percy, the 'Independent Methodists' in the northwest of England are a denomination in their own right, and they're the ones with the BU connection. If you're talking about 'independent' Methodist congregations that have no connection with anyone else, I suppose there are some. But the Methodist inclination is probably towards being part of some larger body.
A few years ago I read about this northern Methodist church, which had decided to break away from its circuit, hence becoming independent. I don't know if it's linked up with some other body now. The interesting thing is that this (not very MOTR) church was already operating fairly independently of the circuit, but this wasn't enough in the end. A MOTR church is obviously easier to control than the alternatives, so from an institutional point of view I can see why MOTR would be preferable.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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ExclamationMark
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# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
1. I'm uncomfortable with the one about developing a critical-mass in order get MPs in marginal seats to conform ... that sounds rather like blackmail to me and rather the sort of tactics that US Tea Party and Religious Right activists use. I'm sure that's not what you are suggesting at all, though.
2. The other examples, about reaching out to migrants, asylum seekers and people who're being trafficked ... well, yes - but I don't think that'll get you a great deal of opprobrium.
1. Laughs - certainly not in Tea Party mode. More making a point about local issues
2. Mmmmm not my experience I'm afraid - previously in a rural and now in an urban context. The local council just don't get it ..... the MP's didn't either until suddenly an election is on the horizon.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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ExclamationMark
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# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I hadn't realised that all the Independent Methodists had been absorbed by the Baptist Union. I could certainly see some going in that direction - or towards the FIEC (Fellowship of Independent Evangelical Churches) - but on the whole, I suspect the FIEC would be rather too Calvinistic for them.
They weren't absorbed - they approached BUGB to seek an understanding. They remain free - as do all BUGB churches - to express their faith in their own. There's no central control - only an assent to governance and a particular mode of baptism
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
I didn't use the team 'absorbed' to imply some kind of nefarious take-over, ExclamationMark, although I can see how you might take the term in a 'loaded' way.
I suppose a term like 'are now affiliated to the Baptist Union' would have been better.
I s'pose I used the term because I was thinking how most of the various offshoots from mainstream Methodism during the 19th century were gradually absorbed back into the parent body - a process that continued up until around 1930 I understand.
So groups like the New Connexion and the Primitive Methodists were all eventually subsumed back into the 'mainstream' Methodist Church.
From what I can gather, this is unusual both ecclesiologically and sociologically.
Generally, splinter groups continue to expand or spiral ... or become even more fissaporous.
We may well see some of the denominations that came out of Anglicanism gradually being absorbed back into the CofE at some point - the Methodists and URCs seem prime candidates for this at some point.
But who knows?
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Generally, splinter groups continue to expand or spiral ... or become even more fissaporous.
This seems to have been the case for Methodists in the USA especially, but in the UK I imagine that most of the different Methodist groups here had reached exhaustion by the 1930s, and had nowhere else to go. Also, the splits weren't always for theological reasons, so the barriers between them were low from that perspective. The sociological divisions between them were also flattening out.
quote:
We may well see some of the denominations that came out of Anglicanism gradually being absorbed back into the CofE at some point - the Methodists and URCs seem prime candidates for this at some point.
But who knows?
Steve Bruce famously predicted that the British Methodist Church would fold as a separate denomination in 2031. You might think this was presumptuous of him, but a recent President of Conference openly pronounced a merger with the CofE to be a desirable goal. It's certainly an outcome that some Methodists have been committed to for a long time.
I don't know if the URC has been engaged in 'talks' with the CofE, but an Anglican theologian I know thinks a merger with some other denomination is probable, or else the URC will just cease to exist. I would have liked the URC and the Methodist Church to consider merging with each other, but that idea seems to have fizzled out a long time ago.
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Yes, here where I live the URC congregation are having some discussions about their future and whether their church is still viable.
From the outside, it seems obvious that they ought to seek some kind of merger with the Methodists, but I daresay it doesn't look quite as simple as that from the inside ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Here the URC and Methodist church are on the same circuit and have same minister (who has something like 11 churches). They both have amazing buildings but not huge congregations. The URC is very much part of the local CTBI group, but the Methodists aren't. Part of the URC building is the oldest church building in the town and has been rebuilt to make it a useful building, let out to other groups. The Methodist church building is very distinctive, recently restored, and is where the pre-school, art society and other groups meet.
This has knock on effects. A few years back a huge funeral (of a friend) was held in the Methodist church with people spilling on to the street, whereas a funeral about the same time of a RC soldier killed in Afghanistan borrowed the bigger CofE church building to hold the service - with support and assistance of the CofE. The CofE church would have willingly supported this friend's funeral as one of the last pieces of work this friend did was restoration work on a tablet in the CofE building.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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ExclamationMark
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# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
1. I didn't use the team 'absorbed' to imply some kind of nefarious take-over, ExclamationMark, although I can see how you might take the term in a 'loaded' way.
2. We may well see some of the denominations that came out of Anglicanism gradually being absorbed back into the CofE at some point - the Methodists and URCs seem prime candidates for this at some point.
3. But who knows?
1. I didn't take it like that but it does need pointing out that the approach came first from the Methodist side. Most were/are pretty Baptist like in government and baptismal practice.
There's also the Wesleyan Reform Union which again is very baptistic in approach and government. My daughter attends one in Northants and it's very much like the church here.
2. I agree but I do suspect it's borne out of desperation on the part of the URC and Methodist. Both seem to be in free fall in the areas I know - if you're MOTR you tend to go to the Anglican MOTR these days.
The few remaining congregational churches may go the house church/community church route or the more reformed will go to FIEC.
3. Er, God?
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Yes, here where I live the URC congregation are having some discussions about their future and whether their church is still viable.
From the outside, it seems obvious that they ought to seek some kind of merger with the Methodists, but I daresay it doesn't look quite as simple as that from the inside ...
1. The URC "Mission Council" meets from time to time together with Methodist Council, with a view to facilitating relationships. But the Methodists also have a toe in the Anglican pool.
2. In Scotland, the URC is "unbalanced" as it basically consists of former Congregational churches (except the ones that stayed in the Congregational Federation). Logically it would gain balance by joining with the United Free Church of Scotland (Continuing) - not the "Wee Frees"! - but I can't see that happening anytime soon. Quite apart from structural differences, the UFCoS probably wouldn't think that the Methodists were evangelical enough.
3. The URC, Baptists, Methodists already have a "Joint Public Issues Team" which comments on suitable issues (drones, foodbanks etc.) Sometimes they are joined by the Church of Scotland. The Baptists and the URC also share a Safeguarding Officer.
4. The URC loves taking part in Local Ecumenical Churches. Here most of those are with Methodists, but there are also one or two with Anglicans or Baptists, and one which is a five-way church!
[ 20. July 2014, 15:17: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I don't know if the URC has been engaged in 'talks' with the CofE.
Not that I know of, but I'm not really "in the know".
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Here the URC and Methodist church are on the same circuit and have same minister (who has something like 11 churches). They both have amazing buildings but not huge congregations. The URC is very much part of the local CTBI group, but the Methodists aren't.
Eleven churches? Goodness me!
You don't need to give any revealing details, of course, but can you say why the Methodists aren't members of Churches Together? If they share a minister with the URC they're clearly part of an ecumenical arrangement already, so I'm not sure why they'd refuse to be part of CT.
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
The Methodists are members of the local Churches Together, in theory, they just never come along to any meetings or get involved at all.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
From the outside, it seems obvious that they ought to seek some kind of merger with the Methodists, but I daresay it doesn't look quite as simple as that from the inside ...
There is a brand new URC/Methodist Church in our town ( building and services shared).
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
It would be interesting to know if the two denominations are equal legal partners in this, especially in respect of the building. Our church is URC/Baptist but the building is wholly URC and we have had difficulties in getting our Manse to "belong" to both denominations.
Often one denomination has to "lead" in LEPs, largely due to obsolete Government legislation (from 1969!)
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
2. We may well see some of the denominations that came out of Anglicanism gradually being absorbed back into the CofE at some point - the Methodists and URCs seem prime candidates for this at some point.
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
2. I agree but I do suspect it's borne out of desperation on the part of the URC and Methodist. Both seem to be in free fall in the areas I know - if you're MOTR you tend to go to the Anglican MOTR these days.
The few remaining congregational churches may go the house church/community church route or the more reformed will go to FIEC.
Denominational mergers are usually borne out of decline; strong institutions don't give up their autonomy easily, whether on a local or national level. In the Methodist case, I think there's also a strong sense that joining up with the CofE again is what John Wesley would have wanted.
I know of an evangelical Congregational church quite near to where I live. I don't think the congregation has ever been large, but it has a strong sense of self, and a younger age profile than most of the local indigenous churches. Whichever Edwardian built it had the foresight to keep the design fairly simple, and also to put a shop on the ground floor, which is now the church charity shop. This church has obviously had a rather different trajectory from the MOTR URC congregation I mentioned above, even though they both started life as Congregational churches at about the same time and in fairly close proximity to each other.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
From the outside, it seems obvious that they ought to seek some kind of merger with the Methodists, but I daresay it doesn't look quite as simple as that from the inside ...
There is a brand new URC/Methodist Church in our town ( building and services shared).
This happens a lot - but there's a difference between local congregations merging and the national denominations merging. What's joyfully promoted as fellowship and unity at the local level doesn't inspire quite so much enthusiasm at the top.....
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I once heard an Imam give a talk in which he alluded to the claim that only Christianity has a concept of grace.
His Anglican vicar friend had pointed this out to him.
Of course grace is exclusive.
It is exclusively from God.
Whether or not other religions can have a concept of grace is not something we need to worry about, there are lots of things Christians and Muslims (and Jews and Hindus and jains and...) agree about, this could be another of them.
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Sure, but I don't think we'll be seeing many synagogue/church or mosque/church mergers any time soon ...
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I once heard an Imam give a talk in which he alluded to the claim that only Christianity has a concept of grace.
His Anglican vicar friend had pointed this out to him.
Of course grace is exclusive.
It is exclusively from God.
Whether or not other religions can have a concept of grace is not something we need to worry about, there are lots of things Christians and Muslims (and Jews and Hindus and jains and...) agree about, this could be another of them.
Judaism is all about grace.
Islam is all about mercy.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Islam is all about mercy.
Quite. A theology of works not grace
[code]
[ 22. July 2014, 09:52: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
Yes, but the worship spaces will still be separate, albeit with a communal central space. This brings three faiths under one roof, I think it emphasises both their essential unity and their distinctive differences.
I wonder though how things would have worked out if it had been suggested that one of the faiths involved was not an Abrahamic religion.
[ 22. July 2014, 17:06: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
A lot is said about interfaith engagement, but it doesn't seem to be at a very interesting level in the UK these days, despite the importance (or so we're told) of pick 'n' mix spirituality in the culture. The Unitarian Universalists in the USA apparently invite people from different faiths to contribute to their worship, but I've never heard of the Unitarians in the UK doing any such thing, let alone the more mainstream churches. Maybe this is a role that the 'quiet, respectable' churches could take on in the future as a way of addressing rising ethno-religious tensions.
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
I'm wondering how the idea for the German multifaith house of worship came about, and where they got the money from.... Interestingly, there happens to be a church in Scotland that local Muslims have been allowed to share out of neighbourlyness. The bishop thinks it could be a role model for others churches.
I think very few 'quiet, respectable churches' would have the money to contribute towards a brand new multifaith house of worship. As for sharing an existing building, that would have financial implications too. Most church buildings become mosques because the Christian members have become too few in number and can no longer pay for the upkeep of the building. One option would be for the Christians only to sell the building to a Muslim group on condition that they could still use it for Christian worship. Alternatively, Christians who've lost or are losing their building could approach local mosques to ask about renting the premises on Sundays. This isn't such a far-fetched idea in inner city areas where there are more mosques and Muslims than there are churches and Christians.
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L'organist
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# 17338
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Posted
Don't know if this qualifies as true 'sharing' but back in 1969 a parish in St Albans diocese had a sharing arrangement with one of its buildings for a new synagogue to be formed. Even before this, the same parish pushed through the faculty process for the dismantling of a trust for a parcel of land that had been given with the intention of building a daughter church, with attendant buildings for a curate, hall, etc. The land became the basis for what is one of the UK's largest Jewish cemeteries.
When the synagogue outgrew the original church building the parish was very supportive with the planning application for a much larger dedicated synagogue complex, the building of which had attracted some local resistance...
This was (and is) an ultra 'quiet, respectable' parish.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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