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Source: (consider it) Thread: URC - composition of
leo
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# 1458

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When the United Reformed Church was created in the 1970s, what proportion was formerly Congregationalist and what proportion Presbyterian?

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Gwai
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# 11076

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Is there anything you want to discuss here, or is this a research question?

Gwai,
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Ahleal V
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# 8404

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This may be of use.

x

AV

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leo
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# 1458

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quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
Is there anything you want to discuss here, or is this a research question?

Gwai,
Purgatory Host

Nor research as such - the question arose out of an argument and I wonder to what extent former congregationalists have bigger clout that Presbyterians in this new denomination. e.g. in polity, liturgy, theology

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Albertus
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I think the rest of us can just sit back and wait for Jengie to give the definitive answer to this one.
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leo
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# 1458

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quote:
Originally posted by Ahleal V:
This may be of use.

x

AV

Thanks - it gives the history but doesn't give any statistics.

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Gwai
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# 11076

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Since you did not answer my question, I gather no discussion topic intended then.

Gwai,
Purgatory Host

[ 25. July 2014, 16:22: Message edited by: Gwai ]

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leo
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# 1458

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I did, above. Discussion of polity, influence etc.

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Gwai
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# 11076

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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I did, above. Discussion of polity, influence etc.

Fair enough. My apologies. I did miss that. Thanks.

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If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
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Jengie jon

Semper Reformanda
# 273

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I do not have definitive answers, but I would say that about 70% were Congregational and 30% were Presbyterian. However, it partly depends on what you are counting, congregations or people. The Congregational Church in England and Wales had a far higher proportion of small congregations than the Presbyterian Church of England.

Congregational Churches tended to have many small churches scattered through an area while the Presbyterian often had a central congregation covering a wider area (there are exceptions: in Manchester and Newcastle the number of Presbyterian Churches is much closer to the number of Congregational Churches and the congregations were always smaller). Part of this was polity. The Presbyterians did strive for one church, one ministers while the Congregationalists tended to ask whether there was a viable community and were happy for small viable communities to exist even if there was no ministerial provision.

[eta] The actual percentage does not give you a very clear picture of what the feeling is like in an area. The Presbyterian Church of England was not evenly spread over the whole country. For instance the two areas I know best: in South Manchester almost half the congregation were of Presbyterian Heritage while in South Yorkshire only one was. The Churches of Christ is even more localised to specific areas.

Jengie

[ 25. July 2014, 19:29: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]

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Metapelagius
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I read somewhere recently that the current membership of the URC (c.65,000?) is roughly that of the PCoE at the time of the union. As I recall, Congregationalists were two or three times more numerous than Presbyterians in 1970.

The decision whether to join the URC was left to individual Congregationalist congregations to decide; for the PCoE the decision was made, effectively, by the General Assembly, though the churches in the Channel Islands and in Berwick opted out by petitioning for admission to the presbyteries of England or Berwick of the CoS. On the other hand, a substantial number of Congregationalist places opted not to join the URC. Presbyterian congregations were on the whole much larger than Congregationalist ones, so that apart from numbers of members there were far fewer PCoE churches overall than Congregational ones, but with considerable regional variation. Locally hereabouts the URC district as constituted in 1972 had 30+ ex Congregational places, 1 PCoE. The situation would, I suspect, have been rather different in other parts of the country, especially in Cumberland or Northumberland.

The construction of the URC can look a bit like a horse designed by a committee, but trying to merge two essentially incompatible forms of church government is not an easy task. It has the Presbyterian hierarchy of Courts (though they must be called Councils, please ..) but au fond it is the Church Meeting that makes all the local decisions, very Congregationalist. In an ex PCoE place the membership may well trust the Session to know it is doing and on the whole approve it; in an ex-Congregationalist place things may well be ordered otherwise. The District Council (now abolished), on the other hand, did act rather like the presbytery; its powers and duties have now been shunted up the line to the Province. When the streamlining of the bureaucracy (taking out a layer) was carried out a few years back there were those who argued that the example of the Kirk (getting rid of provincial synods) should be followed, but other counsels prevailed, leaving the wider level in place. This can seem too large a forum for local opinion to be aired adequately.

Dr Cornick (who, incidentally, must be one of the most engaging preachers that I have been lucky enough to hear, and that on a number of occasions) has written an excellent piece on the background and development of the URC. What he has to say about the PCoE rings particularly true to me - that although it was classed in England as 'non-conformist' it never felt to me to be 'dissenting' or in the 'English free church tradition' in the way that Methodist, Congregationalist or Baptist places (in as much as I have had any experience of them) did. That atmosphere, ethos, call it what you will, still seems to linger in at least some ex PCoE URC congregations. If such a congregation has over the years drawn its new members from the Celtic fringe or the commonwealth, as can be the case, then even forty years or so after the formation of the URC a congregation can still be very recognisably Presbyterian.

When I started this reply JJ’s contribution had not appeared (I dined in the meantime). I think the above supplements/complements/does not run counter to what she has to say.

Post no 1000, I think. [Eek!]

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Jengie jon

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# 273

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However, it is not the case that General Assembly of PCofE gave it au fait compli to the congregations. The rules were as follows. For a Congregational Church in England and Wales (CCEW) congregation you needed 80% of the membership to vote for the merger. For the PCofE congregation to not come in, you needed an 80% vote against merger. My home congregation (PCofE heritage)only failed to get the 80% to stay out because someone went home for Sunday Lunch, treating the result as forgone conclusion. In other words, it was difficult but possible for PCofE congregations not to come in and that is how the Channel Islands and Berwick did it. My home congregation and I think, Richmond Hill- St Andrews, Bournemouth both had majorities in favour of not going in but did not make 80%.

There is a rumour that the big CCEW congregations did not come in. I can see no evidence for this. The big CCEW (e.g. Carrs Lane Birmingham, City Temple) I know of did come in, the few remaining Congregational Churches I have had contact with have always been small even in URC terms. What is true is on the denominational profile CCEW was already in decline while PCofE was not. This meant the early shrinkage hit disproportionally the former CCEW. I suspect over the last decade former PCofE have been playing catch up. What the forming of CCEW (from the Congregational Union) and the merger did do is tie individual congregations much more closely to the central body. The result of this that while congregations have continued to die, we have not had the sustained flow of new congregations joining. We would have been a larger but much more conservative denomination if this had been avoided.

The dissenting thing is difficult. The one congregation of English Presbyterian Dissent (outside Northumbria a very small group indeed) I have had contact with would definitely have placed itself in the Dissenting lineage. I suspect the Northumbrian may do so as well.

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WearyPilgrim
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Did some congregations of the Union of Welsh Independents enter the URC? The Union remains, small but (I think) fairly lively, and has a close relationship with the Congregational Federation.
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128

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quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
The actual percentage does not give you a very clear picture of what the feeling is like in an area. The Presbyterian Church of England was not evenly spread over the whole country. For instance the two areas I know best: in South Manchester almost half the congregation were of Presbyterian Heritage while in South Yorkshire only one was.

Yes, here in East Anglia the URC is very largely ex-Congregational and still feels it! Felixstowe was largely Presbyterian (I think it may have been a merger of two congregations, one of them Congregational) and still feels a tiny bit "different"; while St. Columba's Cambridge (hallo Shipmate, you know who you are) is not just a former Presbyterian Church but is also the Church of Scotland chaplaincy to the University.
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Jengie jon

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# 273

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Leo

This may interest you, but numbers have very little to do with clout. The two denominations had two very different ways of relating to their own traditions. The PCofE referred very strongly to themselves as Presbyterian. This is the typical stance of a minority group and also has to do with the strong ex-pat nature.

The CCEW never referred to the tradition as Congregationalist, it was always simple "We". In other words despite being a minority amongst denominations in England and Wales their language was that of a dominant tradition. Some of this was due to polity. In that the focus on the local congregation as the place where the tradition is experienced allows for this "we" talk. However, it was applied by association to the wider tradition. A tradition of this sort is hard to argue with is morphous and tends to colonise other traditions. It is also a very mixed tradition. By remaining unnamed it allowed for more congregations of different stances to buy into the tradition.


The Congregational Church in Scotland (a later merger) has a minority Congregational tradition which is quite concious of the fact that it is Congregational. It is also a purer tradition.

Jengie

[ 26. July 2014, 09:41: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]

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Jengie jon

Semper Reformanda
# 273

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There is no formal merger between Welsh Independents and the URC. The three to date are
  • 1972 - CCEW and PCofS to form URC in England and Wales
  • 1981 -URC in England and Wales with the Reformed Association of Churches of Christ (CofC) to for URC in the UK (CofC had about a dozen congregations north of the border)
  • 2001 - URC in the UK with the Congregational Church in Scotland to form the URC.

There are however on top of that a small trickle of congregations joining the URC as congregations. This is far smaller than the number of congregations closing. Whether that includes some Welsh Independents I do not know.

My guess is the difference between Congregationalist from the CCEW and Welsh Independents was not the country the church buildings were in but the language of worship. There are, irc, a few Welsh Independents in England (Shrewsbury being one place I knew of).

Jengie

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leo
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# 1458

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Thanks for the info. so far.

The URC has interested me ever since I helped out at a LEP and found myself frequently at URC eucharists and wanted to talk/think myself round to addressing my anglo-catholic scruples about 'valid' sacraments.

I concluded that the URC has a very 'high' view of ordination.

Also, its discussion documents on pastoral issues are far superior to anglican ones.

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Metapelagius
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quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
There is no formal merger between Welsh Independents and the URC. The three to date are
  • 1972 - CCEW and PCofS to form URC in England and Wales
  • 1981 -URC in England and Wales with the Reformed Association of Churches of Christ (CofC) to for URC in the UK (CofC had about a dozen congregations north of the border)
  • 2001 - URC in the UK with the Congregational Church in Scotland to form the URC.

There are however on top of that a small trickle of congregations joining the URC as congregations. This is far smaller than the number of congregations closing. Whether that includes some Welsh Independents I do not know.

My guess is the difference between Congregationalist from the CCEW and Welsh Independents was not the country the church buildings were in but the language of worship. There are, irc, a few Welsh Independents in England (Shrewsbury being one place I knew of).

Jengie

Possibly a feature of being Independent (the autocephalous principle taken to its logical extreme), the "English Congregationalists" (sic) in Wales and Undeb yr Annibynwyr, at least from my experience while living in Wales, may have had cordial relations one with the other, but functioned as quite separate bodies, on grounds of language rather than doctrine. So almost all URC congregations in Wales are ex-English Cong. - the only exceptions that spring to mind being the now defunct S.Andrew's in Swansea and Windsor Place in Cardiff - both PCoE but in the case of the latter when I knew it very heavily Scottish expatriate - the situation in Swansea would probably have been similar. I should be surprised if any of the Annibynwyr would have joined the URC. They may well have the odd congregation in England. The Calvinistic Methodists (who again took no part in the URC) certainly do - in the borders and Liverpool, and also in London. I was startled recently to find the internet site of a Welsh CM chapel in the rather improbable setting of Cockfosters - at the end of the Piccadilly line. [Ultra confused]

There are instances of other 'waifs and strays' joining the URC. Up to 1970 Malvern in Worcestershire boasted two Countess of Huntingdon's Connexion chapels. One closed down about then; the other joined the URC.

As Baptist Trainfan notes the URC in East Anglia is largely ex-Cong. - churches in Cambridge and Norwich were PCoE but I am not aware of any others. It is mildly interesting to note that Oliver Cromwell's birthplace, Huntingdon, looks now to have no Congregationalist or URC presence.

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y rof a duv. dagnouet.
Am bo forth. y porth riet.
Crist ny buv e trist yth orsset.

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Sober Preacher's Kid

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# 12699

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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Thanks for the info. so far.

The URC has interested me ever since I helped out at a LEP and found myself frequently at URC eucharists and wanted to talk/think myself round to addressing my anglo-catholic scruples about 'valid' sacraments.

I concluded that the URC has a very 'high' view of ordination.

Also, its discussion documents on pastoral issues are far superior to anglican ones.

So I take it you've been talking to Ma Preacher then? [Razz]

Once ordained, always ordained, that's her motto.

To add another tangent to this very delightful thread, I'll see the URC's merger of Presbyterians and Congregationalists and throw in Methodists to boot. That's how the UCCan got Settlement (assigning newly ordained ministers to Upper Left Armpit, Saskatchewan), Pastoral Charges, Presbyteries, Conferences and a General Council.

Or as I like to think of it, John Wesley's Horse with John Smith's saddle and John Knox's whisky bottle. [Big Grin]

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Gee D
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# 13815

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Jengie Jon, when the Uniting Church was formed here, quite a few of the former Presbyterian Churches opted out of union. Much trouble about who got what property, and Handley QC (as he then was, and also Chancellor of the Anglican Diocese of Sydney) carried out an arbitration to divide it between the new Uniting Church and the continuing Presbyterians. All the Methodists and Congregationalists joined the new Church. Was there any similar process in the UK?

Another point interests me. It's now 40 odd years since the Uniting Church here was formed and it's really only in the last half dozen that there has been the formation of a distinct united theology and ethos. Until then, it was pretty easy to tell from which strand any particular minister came - or even congregation. What has been the UK experience please?

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Jengie jon

Semper Reformanda
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To a large extent no.

Firstly there were very few Presbyterian churches that did not come in. It was difficult for them not to, see post above. There is some evidence that in some cases they might have lost their building. My home congregation did explore other possibilities in case of succeeding in not merging. However most Presbyterians congregations were the trustees of their building.

Secondly the Congregational churches all owned their own buildings. So those that didn't come in had no problem.

I actually doubt whether the URC would have disputed ownership of a building in 1972. It was more likely to be assumed that it was owned by the congregation although a case may be made for those whose deeds specified Presbyterian Church of England.

Jengie

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Jengie jon

Semper Reformanda
# 273

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Metapelagius

I have not traced it, but I suspect we have some Welsh speaking congregations from the former Churches of Christ. I have known a minister who was a former Welsh miner.

Jengie

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Gee D
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Thank you for your comments. One of the problems here was that in many places there were 3 churches combined into 1, but some of the Presbyterians continued on their own. In another, the continuers got the old Congregationalist, and then the former Methodist and Presbyterian churches continued as part of the new Uniting, but did not speak to each other until dwindling numbers forced a combination both physical and of government. By and large, the combined church got the former Presbyterian, and the continuing Presbyterians got the Methodist (usually smaller and so forth). Then of course there were the schools, the endowments and so forth.

Any comments about a combined new church theology? By and large here, the governance followed Presbyterian practice.

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Albertus
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quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Metapelagius

I have not traced it, but I suspect we have some Welsh speaking congregations from the former Churches of Christ. I have known a minister who was a former Welsh miner.

Jengie

I think that the suggestion that most URC churches in Wales are ex-English Congregationalist is probably correct (although I can think of at least two in Cardiff which were 'English Presbyterian' with something of a Scottish influence or tinge). On the whole, in Wales the church closest to the URC is the Presbyterian Church in Wales (ex Calvinistic Methodist), which has both Welsh and English speaking congregations. IME they get on well with teh URC and share ministry in some places. The remaining (English) Congregationalists are clsoer to the Welsh Independents, with a slight reserve because the Independents are pretty much monolingually Welsh in their dealings- they don't, or didn't, even produce bilingual materials for ecumenical displays and so on.

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Jengie jon

Semper Reformanda
# 273

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Well the short answer is Reformed English Dissent. The long answer will take some time as it is shaped very much by the context and I will add the codicil now that in Scotland (and probably Wales too) the feel is very different.

Historically there is two approaches to theology that differ, but do not simply map onto a "liberal/conservative" axis. At times both can be seen as liberal and both can be seen as conservative. I am going to use the labels Magisterial and Radical.

The Magisterial stance works very strongly within the theological structure of the Magisterial Continental Reformation. Their theology tends to be about doctrine and they quite often have a desire for doctrinal conformity with others wihtin the denomination. On the other hand they do see the church as the priest for the wider community and therefore are quite minimalist on what members need to do.

The radical stance works very much more as seeing theology as revealed within the context. It would pick up the statement attributed to John Robinson "That the Lord has more truth and light to break forth from his word". Therefore, the theology is much more contextual. Thus agreement on matters of doctrine are not as important as those within the previous group (pretty postmodern stuff but dates back to 17th Century if not earlier). However for them the local church is the place where revelation takes place. Thus they see the church far more as against society.

Now you get different mixes. The Presbyterians with their Scottish connections were much more strongly the first sort while the Congregationalist are a mix of both. There is a problem over theology and it is not really about content but about nature. I suspect the Congregational Church of Scotland tended far more strongly to the second. The Churches of Christ have yet another take.

So what is the theology. Firstly it is broadly speaking Reformed. That is the Reformed theological tradition is the basic tradition within which our thinkers work. This shows in a number of ways, not least the way it is accepted that within theological discussion the Bible is a point of reference and the debates held over what interpretation is justified. The big debates we tend also to share with other Reformed churches on the relationship between Reformed identiy and Ecumenicity. When big things happen to us then we behave like all Reformed churches and create statements of faith.

However, there is also a huge diversity within that. A local congregation can contain anyone from someone whose theology is that of the Free Church of Scotland to someone who you'd have difficulty telling from a Quaker. The problem is due to the different approaches above we have not found a way to talk about theology that works for everyone. The Magisterial prefer few statements that are clear and leaving the rest to an individuals conscience, the radical prefer multiple statements with lots of discussion.

Jengie

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Gee D
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Thank you - a very different process and outcome to here.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Ahleal V
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Leo, this OoP book might be of interest - maybe through an inter-library loan?

x

AV

[ 27. July 2014, 22:37: Message edited by: Ahleal V ]

Posts: 499 | From: English Spires | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Sober Preacher's Kid

Presbymethegationalist
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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Jengie Jon, when the Uniting Church was formed here, quite a few of the former Presbyterian Churches opted out of union. Much trouble about who got what property, and Handley QC (as he then was, and also Chancellor of the Anglican Diocese of Sydney) carried out an arbitration to divide it between the new Uniting Church and the continuing Presbyterians. All the Methodists and Congregationalists joined the new Church. Was there any similar process in the UK?

Another point interests me. It's now 40 odd years since the Uniting Church here was formed and it's really only in the last half dozen that there has been the formation of a distinct united theology and ethos. Until then, it was pretty easy to tell from which strand any particular minister came - or even congregation. What has been the UK experience please?

The very same happened in Canada, but Dissenting Congregations in the Presbyterian Church stayed in their own church building; there was no exchange of buildings in Canada in 1925.

Further, the Continuing Presbyterians sued to use the name "Presbyterian Church in Canada", the case dragged on until the 1940's when the Supreme Court of Canada sided with the Presbyterians over the United Church.

The case was partly out of sentiment, partly due to pecuniary interest as there was still value in being the "Presbyterian Church in Canada".

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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.

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Knopwood
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The idea of Congregationalists joining anything en masse seems almost a contradiction in terms. It was close to unanimous here, but I gather there were a few holdouts (mostly in Southern Ontario) to keep the brand alive, though they seem to have picked up most of their numbers from refuseniks in 1988.
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Sober Preacher's Kid

Presbymethegationalist
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Seeing as nobody in the UCCan had ever heard of Congregationalists staying out of the Union, I rather doubt that particular claim. Lineage back to the Congregational Union of Canada? Prove it.

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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.

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Knopwood
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I don't pretend to have any clear reading much less hard proof. Wikipedia has only this:

quote:
... the term "Congregational Church" fell into disuse, and virtually disappeared in Canada. A remnant of churches still congregational in polity were concentrated in Southern Ontario, and were known as the "Ontario Christian Churches". These churches affiliated with the Conservative Congregational Christian Conference in the United States in 1965, but retained their independence as a separate conference.
But articles on smaller groups like this can often draw editors close (and thus potentially sympathetic) to the subject matter, so who knows? Rumps from mergers aren't uncommon (many of the western EUB churches stayed out in '68) but that's not to say they have any appreciable numbers. Obviously none of the other founding bodies had reactions comparable in scale to the continuing Presbyterians.
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Knopwood
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Here we are: a congregation not far from where I went to high school. Still, we could be talking single digits before the infusion of newly-disgruntled blood in '88. (Note that they didn't stay with the new outfit for long, finding the newcomers insufficiently rooted in "historic congregationalism").

[ 29. July 2014, 01:30: Message edited by: LQ ]

Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged
Sober Preacher's Kid

Presbymethegationalist
# 12699

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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Another point interests me. It's now 40 odd years since the Uniting Church here was formed and it's really only in the last half dozen that there has been the formation of a distinct united theology and ethos. Until then, it was pretty easy to tell from which strand any particular minister came - or even congregation. What has been the UK experience please?

The former Moderator of the UCCan, the Very Rev. David Giuliano wrote of our union "the seams have healed too well" for us to tell the differences anymore. This process was greatly helped by a World War and the fact that all the post-war suburban churches were built as United Churches and were never anything but.

It's now 90 years on. My current church lost its last member three years who remembered us as a Methodist church. She passed on to her Heavenly reward. She was nine in 1925 and remembered that there was a big picnic and they served strawberry ice cream that Sunday.

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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.

Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007  |  IP: Logged
Gee D
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Yes, I recall your saying that. I'm wondering quite what the English experience was, that being more or less contemporaneous with the Uniting Church here. There was a quite substantial amount of property to be divided. Apart from the land upon which churches were built, there were schools and other institutions, to say nothing of all the endowments. There had been legislation for the former Presbyterian and Methodists to establish property trusts and then new legislation for the Uniting Church on its foundation.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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WearyPilgrim
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The U.S. merger between the Congregationalists and the Evangelical and Reformed Church (a presbyterial body) took thirteen years to consummate, what with all the court cases and lawsuits. The story is long and complicated, but in the end it boiled down to this: the General Council of Congregational Christian Churches (the old Congregational body) voted that if 75% of the Congregational churches were to vote in favor of the merger, it would proceed. The end vote came to 72.3%, which (in defiance of all mathematical logic) the Council declared to be equivalent to 75, so they went ahead with the merger. The E&R congregations went in en masse, as the denomination's polity was quite different. That, indeed, was the point that the anti-merger Congregationalists were making: you can't tie a dog's tail and a cat's tail together and assume that a new animal can automatically be thereby created. The pro-merger Congregationalists' vision of a "united and uniting Church" kinda went bust when, after all was said and done, there emerged three Congregational bodies where previously there had been one: the UCC, the National Association of Congregational Christian Churches (theologically diverse like the UCC, but fiercely congregational in polity), and the Conservative Congregational Christian Conference (evangelical in theology, as defined by a statement of faith to which its member churches must adhere). In addition, there were at least several hundred churches that simply became independent, some of them large and not necessarily conservative. Churches in all of the latter three categories have increased in number as the years have passed, while the UCC had bled badly numerically, both in the number of its adherents and the number of its churches. There have been areas of growth, however --- ethnic churches and gay-friendly churches, both of which are attracted to the UCC's inclusivism. The CCCC, conversely, has attracted quite a few anti-gay UCC congregations, and the NACCC continues to see some modest growth from churches that want to affirm their Congregational heritage and polity. (A few have dual affiliation with the UCC, the CCCC, or both. Go figure.) [Yipee]

[ 29. July 2014, 12:00: Message edited by: WearyPilgrim ]

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