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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Thesis Support version 5.0
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Apparently the fee can't be waived, but my department are going to pay it for me!
And in other news, I have been inconsistent in footnote references between p5, p 5, p.5 and p. 5.
Trawling through my footnotes, tidying up my p's.
![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
That's a simple process nowadays, eh? Back in the mists of time when PCs were new, I was running a final check with WP2.something, and inadvertently (probably due to my own stupidity) deleted every e in a 50 page paper. I pressed undo, but that evil program just laughed and laughed at me. It took about three hours to track down every one. And the paper was due the next day. ![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Right. Yesterday I sent my full thesis off to my supervisor for his final check through. I also gave it to a proof reader.
For the first time in over ten years there is nothing I could be doing to progress my thesis.
Weird!
This is not submission, I get it back start of October and then have to get it finalised for the end of that month to submit.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
That's a simple process nowadays, eh? Back in the mists of time when PCs were new, I was running a final check with WP2.something, and inadvertently (probably due to my own stupidity) deleted every e in a 50 page paper. I pressed undo, but that evil program just laughed and laughed at me. It took about three hours to track down every one. And the paper was due the next day.
Somethings are easier, somethings are not. I must admit for the most part I use Mendeley to manage my references in my thesis. However it can only do a draft of the bibliography as I need to put in information that it does not allow you to put in. So I spent two days checking the original publication dates of all the books and quite a few of the papers in my thesis.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Tukai
Shipmate
# 12960
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
...
And in other news, I have been inconsistent in footnote references between p5, p 5, p.5 and p. 5.
...
NEQ: that used be called "minding your P's and Q's" ! ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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A government that panders to the worst instincts of its people degrades the whole country for years to come.
Posts: 594 | From: Oz | Registered: Sep 2007
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Right. Yesterday I sent my full thesis off to my supervisor for his final check through. I also gave it to a proof reader.
For the first time in over ten years there is nothing I could be doing to progress my thesis.
Weird!
This is not submission, I get it back start of October and then have to get it finalised for the end of that month to submit.
Jengie
And today I sent mine off to my supervisor. I still have to finish the index, but that was no reason to delay sending it off.
![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
I hoped to finish this morning, so I'm still in my PJs at 3.40 pm, haven't had any lunch yet, but am totally wired on coffee.
I think I'll go and have a bubble bath!
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894
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Posted
These things eventually end? Wow. Impressed with you both!
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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.
Posts: 6849 | From: The People's Republic of Balcones | Registered: Jan 2006
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
I submitted mine yesterday.
Viva should be within eight weeks.
Also told this week that if it passes and I can find some funding, I can have a post-doc research fellowship.
[ 21. September 2013, 13:30: Message edited by: Trisagion ]
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
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Jack the Lass
Ship's airhead
# 3415
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Posted
Exciting times - well done Jengie, NEQ and Trisagion! (for the two of you close to submitting but not quite there yet, my main top tip is to make sure you don't have a burst pipe the day before submitting. Not that that's the voice of experience or anything ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) ).
Trisagion, I will keep everything lit, crossed, etc for postdoc funding (that's the big 'if', I've no doubt about the passing the viva bit). Maybe soon there will be enough of us postdocs that we can have our own support thread ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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"My body is a temple - it's big and doesn't move." (Jo Brand)
wiblog blipfoto blog
Posts: 5767 | From: the land of the deep-fried Mars Bar | Registered: Oct 2002
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
A complete aside but as a Host I have to read all threads and I have really enjoyed/still enjoy journeying along with you all on this one, through your anxieties and doubts of competence and then on to submission and vivat and award - fabulous!
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Well Welease Wodderwick, this thesis journey is going to take slightly longer than I was expecting as I have to do a re-write to major restructuring of the argument. That can not be done is a month, and I need some time to get my head around it. I expect to submit early in 2014 now.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
You'll get there, Jengie! But it must feel grim just now.
My thesis doesn't even make sense to me any more - I need some distance from it. Fortunately, my supervisor has signed off on the main body of the thesis, but has recommended "presentational improvements." I hope to submit next week.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Hazey*Jane
Ship's Biscuit Crumbs
# 8754
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Posted
I'm coming to the end of my experimental work and it's time to focus on the writing. ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
Yes, I do already have chunks here and there (a literature review which needs updating, various interim reports, bits of results/methods here and there) but it's time to really get on with turning it into the thesis and filling in the substantial gaps in between the existing material. And yet... and yet... the grumpy toddler in me keeps going "I DON'T WANT TO". Added to that a few personal things have left me with little spare creative capacity at the moment, and a big old empty hole in my head whenever I sit down to try to start.
Any advice? I am familiar with the concept of breaking down chapters/sections into smaller manageable chunks, but all that does is increase the number of items on my to do list. It doesn't make me actually do them! I have found 'Shut up and Write' type sessions helpful in the past for getting words on the page, but currently all my potential writing buddies are highly unavailable. I've tried to make myself accountable by telling my supervisor I will send him a chapter at the end of this month no matter what state it's in, but that prospect is filling me more with panic than motivation. How do I get over the initial hurdle?
Posts: 4266 | From: UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Wrote this out earlier but my productivity software clicked in at work and chucked me off the ship. No work is not that dictatorial, I put it on my machine so as to limit the time I was on the internet.
Two suggestions, the first is something I took from Robert Boice's book Professors as Writers. That is to write regularly in short timed bursts to capture or create basic ideas for writing. What you do it get a timer (a kitchen one will do), set it for half an hour and write for half an hour on whatever section of your thesis you are tackling. Do not correct spellings, cite works or worry about style, the sole purpose is to capture your thinking. Done in ten half hour slots a week this can generate about 5,000 words a week. Keep the shots short and do not follow one slot with the next. Say do one in the morning and one in the afternoon. You will need to shape this up for your thesis, so you are not just writing for five hours a week, but it stops quite a bit of writers block.
Secondly make a representation of the word count for your thesis. This is what I started with and here is what I got to fourteen months later. I stopped doing it then as I was far more into shaping and editing and these do not have the same easy way of marking progress.
Three plan your basic layout of your thesis so you have an idea of what goes where when you start writing. As you have experimental work then you may find it easy enough to adapt the advice in this pdf to get a first outline.
There are three stages to writing a thesis in my experience. The first is generating a basic text,and that is what this is aimed at. Then there is shaping which is about making sure that things are clear, the argument runs through the thesis, and there are not too many loose ends or repetitions. The final stage is proofing which is careful editing to get int a final form.
Word of warning, please do not think that what you have written in the past can simply be dropped into your thesis. For instance your literature review in the early part of your doctorate has a different role to that in your thesis.
You might find keeping a blog as I did or joining in #phdchat on twitter is good.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Hazey*Jane
Ship's Biscuit Crumbs
# 8754
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Posted
Thanks Jengie. Perhaps I should have said my literature review needs 'revising' rather than 'updating'. I have no intention of using any of my existing chunks of text as is. But I am finding comfort in them being there as a starting point.
The fact is that all three of your suggestions are methods I have employed with some degree of success in the past (though my representation is a rather more dull cumulative word count chart in Excel ). But I am suffering somewhat from a psychological barrier to actually engaging my brain on the topic even enough to do free-writing, which is normally something that at the minimum I can achieve. It's like the gears have got locked. I get energised when I speak to my supervisor or collaborators about the research, but when I return to my desk to write or finish of those analyses, something in me just slumps again.
It could just be that current Real Life stresses are taking it out of me too much and I need to resolve those before I can reasonably expect to produce anything. Maybe I just need to cut myself a little slack. But I don't want to make indefinite excuses for myself either. ![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
Hazey
PS. I am currently trying a change of scenery back in my native city. So far I have drunk an awful lot of tea...
Posts: 4266 | From: UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Are you doing something else creative? That may sound counter intuitive, but I find creativity feeds on creativity and at this stage creativity is a major part of writing your thesis. Now with working on thesis I can not sustain big projects such as writing a novel or even writing a short story, but I can write poems. Indeed the process I go through with the poem is the same as the analytic process in my thesis. I developed that as I created poems. It also gives a space for emotion to be expressed apart than through my thesis.
It might be that an intense weekend doing something different but creative would release the blockage.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
To add I took a two week holiday before starting to write up. I need to create distance from the detailed observational work I had been doing and going away was part of that. It was only partly successful, but it would have been worse if I had not.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Hazey*Jane
Ship's Biscuit Crumbs
# 8754
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Are you doing something else creative? That may sound counter intuitive, but I find creativity feeds on creativity and at this stage creativity is a major part of writing your thesis. Now with working on thesis I can not sustain big projects such as writing a novel or even writing a short story, but I can write poems. Indeed the process I go through with the poem is the same as the analytic process in my thesis. I developed that as I created poems. It also gives a space for emotion to be expressed apart than through my thesis.
You know that might just do it. I've had very little creative outlet for a while, and I keep saying "I must get back into knitting/baking/whatever" but not doing anything about it because I feel like I should only be working on the thesis. I can see that creating something where there are instructions on how to create it (rather than me having to make yet more decisions) might stimulate the right bits of my brain.
Thanks. I'll let you know how it goes.
Posts: 4266 | From: UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Post viva- I know I'll have to make some changes to the thesis, as per examiner's comments?
My question is - in addition to them, can I make changes of my own? Presumably, if I remember somebody I've missed out from my acknowledgements, there'd be no problem adding them in? What if I find a missing piece of paper that would let me add a useful footnote? I have an index of names; what if I did an index of placenames, too? Could that get added in, post-viva, pre-hard copy?
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
I don't want to ask my supervisor, because I think I'll be told to stop faffing, submit the bloody thing and step right back from it.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
I'm here to tell you to stop faffing about. ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
[ 07. October 2013, 11:34: Message edited by: North East Quine ]
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
You can do what Jack the Lass did and turn up to the Viva with a list of amendments you would make. However, I suggest you do not look at the thing for at least a month.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Jack the Lass
Ship's airhead
# 3415
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Posted
NEQ, Jengie beat me to it! To be honest though, 95% of my amendments were typos I'd spotted It did mean though that instead of each individual typo being pointed out in my corrections, I just had a one-line sentence saying "the candidate should correct the typographical errors she has identified" (well I had other corrections as well, but it was at least nice to have 6 sides of identified typos distilled into the one sentence!).
The other thing is that even despite that, 2+ years later I'm still finding more typos
Re the other potential amendments - identify what they might be and do a little (and I mean little) bit of thinking about them, but don't spend tons of time on them - just a few notes to get them out of your system. If the examiners bring them up you can then say "ah yes, I noticed that, and was going to do x to remedy it" (this is good as they will probably just be impressed, and be more likely to let you have your own way, rather than giving you new stuff to write about), but if they don't bring them up then I am confident that once you get the list of their corrections the last thing you will want to do is give yourself even more work (trust me on this!). The fact is the thesis (even if you have no corrections) is not perfect and can always do with something or other being tweaked, but there comes a point where you just have to stop. Plus they are experienced enough to know what a good thesis looks like, and if they haven't identified that you need an extra index (or whatever) then there might well be a good reason for that. If you want to turn your thesis into a book then you can always add the extra index and other stuff to that.
In the meantime, STOP FAFFING!!!
[ 07. October 2013, 19:06: Message edited by: Jack the Lass ]
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"My body is a temple - it's big and doesn't move." (Jo Brand)
wiblog blipfoto blog
Posts: 5767 | From: the land of the deep-fried Mars Bar | Registered: Oct 2002
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Tukai
Shipmate
# 12960
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
Post viva...if I remember somebody I've missed out from my acknowledgements, there'd be no problem adding them in?
This would be worth doing
quote:
What if I find a missing piece of paper that would let me add a useful footnote? I have an index of names; what if I did an index of placenames, too? Could that get added in, post-viva, pre-hard copy?
Don't bother , for the reasons JJ and Jack the Lass gave. In short, stop faffing about the thesis as such, because as every would-be academic knows, though it may be hard for you to realise at this stage, the thesis is not the ultimate academic product. That is the articles and books(?!) that it spawns. .
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A government that panders to the worst instincts of its people degrades the whole country for years to come.
Posts: 594 | From: Oz | Registered: Sep 2007
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Thank you, everybody.
Unfortunately, my printer is playing up. So the plan to print it off today, get it soft bound tomorrow and submit on Thurs is starting to look as though it might slip another day.
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
(I could head into Uni and print it out there, but it's my littlest god-daughter's birthday, and I promised I'd see her after school, plus I'm going to a three-line-whip church meeting tonight, so it's now too late in the day to be heading into Uni - an hour by bus each way.)
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Noooooooo!
The printer got sorted and I put in a brand-new extra-long-life black ink cartridge. One that said it would print a minimum of 1000 sheets. 700 sheets later, I've run out of ink. So unless I can get another cartridge in Tesco tonight, I can't finish printing, can't get it soft bound tomorrow and can't submit on Friday.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
Laus Deo, as they say. Praise God.
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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Jack the Lass
Ship's airhead
# 3415
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
Tesco had ink!
Hooray!
I know it's really stressful and drama-queeny at the moment, but you'll look back on this and laugh and have a tale to tell. My just-before-submission drama was a burst pipe in our flat, I'm still milking that one
Do you have anything nice planned for Friday once you've submitted?
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"My body is a temple - it's big and doesn't move." (Jo Brand)
wiblog blipfoto blog
Posts: 5767 | From: the land of the deep-fried Mars Bar | Registered: Oct 2002
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Cottontail
Shipmate
# 12234
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Posted
Go, NEQ! I remember well the moment of printing out, and it is a stunning feeling. Cheering you on from here.
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"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."
Posts: 2377 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2007
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Dinghy Sailor
Ship's Jibsheet
# 8507
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
You can do what Jack the Lass did and turn up to the Viva with a list of amendments you would make. However, I suggest you do not look at the thing for at least a month.
Jengie
I did both of those. My viva is now passed and I have a list of corrections ... and I don't feel like like looking at it for at least another instance of another month!
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Preach Christ, because this old humanity has used up all hopes and expectations, but in Christ hope lives and remains.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
What Cottontail said - best of luck, NEQ!
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
At 10pm last night I finished a pack of paper, and opened the whole new box of printer paper I had at the ready - only it wasn't printer paper, but gate-fold perforated stuff. It looked like another trip to Tesco, but fortunately after a bit of a flap I rustled up enough to finish from around the house.
Off into in the bindery this morning - arrived at 9.10 in good time for the 10am deadline and.... everyone was standing outside in the rain. The fire alarm had gone off and, as it wasn't a drill, no-one knew what was happening.
Fortunately it was a false alarm and I handed my copies in to be soft-bound.
It was then I spotted THE MISTAKE. On the front sheet. In 16 font. Submitted September 2013.
So I'm hoping that no-one else notices, and if they do, I'll just have to get the tippex out.
I'm due to get my soft-bound copies back this afternoon, and submit tomorrow.
What can possibly go wrong in the next 24 hours?
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Yes! On my way to submit I failed to notice that the lid of my coffee-to-go wasn't on properly and poured half a mug of coffee down the front of my coat, but my thesis was well wrapped and unaffected.
I have submitted!
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Tukai
Shipmate
# 12960
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Posted
Well done to NEQ. Despite my previous remarks about the relative importance of theses, they feel pretty important and all-consuming at the time. So, now 's the time for a nice cup of tea, or a day at the beach, or whatever else helps you to feel relaxed.
And while I'm at it, well done also to Jengie Jon,who's also now near the end of very long track to fame and fortune.
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A government that panders to the worst instincts of its people degrades the whole country for years to come.
Posts: 594 | From: Oz | Registered: Sep 2007
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tukai:
Well done to NEQ.<snip> So, now 's the time for a nice cup of tea, or a day at the beach, or whatever else helps you to feel relaxed. <snip>
Fraserburgh looks nice, and today or tomorrow looks fine and bright. Just mind you wrap up well. It's a lazy wind off the North Sea, I think. (Oh, BTW, don't forget to get that coat cleaned up!)
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Congratulations NEQ,
Hope you enjoy your Thesis free time.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Japes
Shipmate
# 5358
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Posted
Congratulations, NEQ!
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Blog may or may not be of any interest.
Posts: 2013 | From: Somewhere in the middle | Registered: Dec 2003
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
Well done NEQ. Enjoy that unbearable lightness of being which will doubtless be engulfing you.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
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Cottontail
Shipmate
# 12234
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Posted
NEQ.
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"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."
Posts: 2377 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2007
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
Good on you, NEQ! Never mind a cup of tea, get that champagne bottle uncorked!
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
The vivanxiety is setting in. In a moment of folly I checked a footnote yesterday evening. I had suggested that someone "had not been interested in" a particular notion. The authority cited says "was impatient of the idea". Bugger!
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
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Tukai
Shipmate
# 12960
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Posted
Trisagon:
Take heart! Unless that "someone" is one of your examiners , you can bet "London to a brick" that no-one will notice except you. And you can tidy up the footnote as part of the inevitable post-viva corrections to the deposit copy of the thesis.
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A government that panders to the worst instincts of its people degrades the whole country for years to come.
Posts: 594 | From: Oz | Registered: Sep 2007
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Jack the Lass
Ship's airhead
# 3415
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Posted
I think that sometimes viva anxiety can serve a useful purpose. A few weeks before my viva I had the worst anxiety dream (I dreamt my external examiner hated my thesis so much that she refused to speak to me and walked out of the viva! The internal examiner stayed but basically just tutted, shook her head sadly and occasionally sucked her teeth) and was completely traumatised when I woke up. But then I realised that, however bad the viva might be, it really wasn't going to be as bad as that, and that bizarrely helped me to relax a little and put it into perspective. I was still glad when it was over, of course, but that dream really did mark the turning point in the pre-viva angsting.
I agree with Tukai, what to you seems like a massive clanger will probably be barely noticed. To this lay person it sounds like you have just paraphrased rather than exactly quoted, which is hardly failure-worthy (particularly assuming you have referenced the paraphrased citation).
When is your viva, Trisagion? ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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"My body is a temple - it's big and doesn't move." (Jo Brand)
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Posts: 5767 | From: the land of the deep-fried Mars Bar | Registered: Oct 2002
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
I'm still awaiting confirmation of the date. The internal examiner telephoned to me today to say that he's chasing the external and hopes to have a date within a week. The University's regulations say its got to be within three months, so the long-stop date is 20th December, which happens to be my mother's birthday.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
Posts: 3923 | Registered: Nov 2003
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
Viva fixed for 11am on Tuesday, 11th December.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
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