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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: My posts in Purgatory
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Scarlet
Mellon Collie
# 1738
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Posted
I understand I am now in trouble with the hosts. I did not post anything in the newer thread: What? No God when it hurts? than I had already revealed in the earlier, but similar thread: It's about killing yourself before dementia sets in.
The title of the second thread has a stark enough title that it frankly begs for disclosure for what I said. No one scolded me then...
At any rate, I seem to never do well on the Ship, so I am just going to leave for the last time before I break out in hives. I needed my head examined to have started posting again.
I am perfectly fine, for anyone who cares and I plan to continue on day-to-day as I have been before I accepted a life raft out of the waters this time to board the Ship. Feel free to delete or amend my posts.
I apologise for the rules I have broken. I assure you it was in innocence. I am not demented at this time.
...and Wikipedia thinks it is a tough place to edit...
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They took from their surroundings what was needed... and made of it something more.
—dialogue from Primer
Posts: 4769 | Registered: Nov 2001
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Smudgie
Ship's Barnacle
# 2716
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Posted
Scarlet, I have just seen this post. Please don't think you are in trouble with the hosts - that is so utterly not the case.
You posted openly and honestly on a thread that called for openness and honesty and gave an insight which may be totally eyeopening for many. But Euty has headed the discussion off because the way that it may develop might not be helpful to you or to others in comparable situations. Having been on the receiving end of a similar situation, it is only with hindsight that we can see that such guidance is actually helpful and caring rather than punitive as it might first appear.
This is a place where we truly can find people to walk alongside us in our darkest hours - I hope you will continue to hang around to benefit from this and to offer your own support for others. You are very much part of our community here.
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Miss you, Erin.
Posts: 14382 | From: Under the duvet | Registered: Apr 2002
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Wesley J
Silly Shipmate
# 6075
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Smudgie:
[...] You are very much part of our community here.
Seconded.
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Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)
Posts: 7354 | From: The Isles of Silly | Registered: May 2004
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Chocoholic
Shipmate
# 4655
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Posted
Scarlet, I echo what Smudgie has said, I just add this so you know it is more than one persons opinion.
Choccie
[ 12. January 2014, 17:05: Message edited by: Chocoholic ]
Posts: 773 | From: London | Registered: Jun 2003
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
I join in as a third.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
A quick interim word here as the host who intervened directly.
Scarlet, you have not broken any rules and neither have you been reprimanded. The Purgatory Guidelines advise caution on posting personal information but do not prohibit it.
However, it would be irresponsible of the hosts to do nothing if our assessment, incorrect or otherwise, is that personal disclosure indicates that someone's life is in danger.
I don't want to go through your posts line by line here, but your post on the "What? No God" thread could very definitely be read that way (at least to this host), unlike what you posted on the Dementia thread.
We as hosts have got the message that you are in a difficult and serious situation. Faced with that, I felt the responsible thing to do was to suspend discussion of your personal specifics while hosts and admins consult, come to a consensus, and work out a way of expressing this consensus that makes sense. As and when we do (subject to the complexities of the matter, crew availability and time zones), something will be posted on that thread.
I hope that clarifies things for you ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
My feet are in this too. We knew it was complex, that's why we asked for time. We're trying to agree on the best course of action, limited by our means of exchanging ideas and RL as well.
Scarlet, you're really not in any trouble with us. We appreciate you've got more than enough to cope with. We regret any further hurt caused. There are wider issues here; please give us a bit of space to come up with some considered advice to everyone.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Taliesin
Shipmate
# 14017
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Posted
Dear God, Scarlett, I've just read this... what on earth makes you think you're in trouble? I heard host intervention as a warning to the rest of us, not a comment to you at all. Please don't leave. Unless it's more restful for you to not be here, of course.
I'm so sorry... for things that are or are not the fault of any.
Posts: 2138 | From: South, UK | Registered: Aug 2008
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Adrienne
Shipmate
# 2334
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Posted
Scarlet - I want to echo what others have said. When I first joined the Ship, your posts were some of those I valued a great deal, and I was so happy to see you back posting again. I do hope you find it possible to post again before too long.
A
Posts: 977 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2002
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Taliesin
Shipmate
# 14017
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Posted
Has anyone heard from Scarlett since she last posted? I'm worried she isn't reading ship posts at all, and has no idea that no one was criticising her and how sorry we are that it felt that way.
I hate the thought of her setting off on the waves alone, to use her analogy.
Is a host able to send her a personal email?
Posts: 2138 | From: South, UK | Registered: Aug 2008
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
There's nothing to stop any Shipmate, including any Host, and Scarlet, using the PM system if they want. Personally, I always observe privacy over PMs, including the fact that I'm communicating with a Shipmate this way at all. Particularly over anything delicate.
In a way that illustrates a point we're trying to make in the ruling about the importance of the private domain. None of us has the right to know whether private conversations are taking place between folks. That's a classic confidentiality guideline in counselling and pastoral care. Well, anyway, it applied in the centre I used to work in and it applies in my local church. It doubly protects all such conversations. Gives them a greater safety.
Sometimes, Taliesin, it's right to give these things some time and space. Rights of privacy cut both ways.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
[Not talking about Scarlet but the ruling in general.]
So, the considered ruling is -- don't talk about your problems here.
There's an assumption that all people have close friends and family who can be talked to openly and that everyone has a therapist. Sometimes the family is too close to the problem to be able to handle total honesty and most Americans can't afford therapy.
I've always liked the stranger on a plane aspect of the internet. I feel safer talking about some things here than I would IRL.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
So, the considered ruling is -- don't talk about your problems here.
When it comes to a problem that serious, yes.
Sorry, but the risks are just too great. You might like talking to strangers, but can you imagine the damage a stranger can do if they have no interest in your welfare? Multiply that by the fact that the stranger can talk to you from 10,000 kilometres away and doesn't have to face the consequences of whatever they might say.
I'm not saying that the Ship is full of horrible uncaring sociopaths. I'm saying that we can't guarantee that it's free of them, or of people going through a moment of thoughtlessness.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
Moreover, when people talk about their problems, they rarely tell the whole story. There is no intention to deceive, but it would take a very long time to tell everything.
The people with the problems choose those details that seem important to them. The details they omit may be crucial to other people's understanding things.
If the problems are serious, someone may cause harm by saying the wrong thing.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Arrietty
Ship's borrower
# 45
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I've always liked the stranger on a plane aspect of the internet. I feel safer talking about some things here than I would IRL.
That's the trouble though. You feel as if you're talking to a 'stranger on a plane' but in fact you're posting details of you life for anyone who passes by to see.
we all know peer support can be very helpful - and there are loads of examples in All Saints. But sometimes it can be really unhelpful too. That's a balance that the people with overall responsibility for the boards have to gauge.
(None of the above is even vaguely intended to relate specifically to this particular case).
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i-church
Online Mission and Ministry
Posts: 6634 | From: Coventry, UK | Registered: May 2001
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
[Not talking about Scarlet but the ruling in general.]
So, the considered ruling is -- don't talk about your problems here.
There's an assumption that all people have close friends and family who can be talked to openly and that everyone has a therapist. Sometimes the family is too close to the problem to be able to handle total honesty and most Americans can't afford therapy.
I've always liked the stranger on a plane aspect of the internet. I feel safer talking about some things here than I would IRL.
No, that’s not it at all.
Guideline No 4 for Purgatory states: If you find it necessary to share things of a personal nature then remember you have a large audience looking in. Personal statements should be respected by other posters. Please be aware of the cost involved for the person making them.
The reason for that guideline is that once you offer up your personal circumstances for discussion, they will be discussed in the same way as anything else – a book, newspaper article, actions of a politician etc. Some of those responses may not be kind, thoughtful or even helpful. Particularly on a debating board such as Purg, where someone can get so caught up with making their point they forget that there is a person behind those statements and this is a real situation for them. The reason for the Host post was to remind people of that guideline and to enable the discussion to continue in a way that doesn’t focus exclusively on one person’s situation.
If you want to take anything away from this, take away what’s in the guidelines and been repeatedly stated as policy over the years – that you need to be careful about what information you share on the Internet. The Ship is an open access bulletin board that averages over a million hits each month. Not everyone reading is going to have other people's best interests at heart. The Ship cannot be used as someone's primary source of support if they're in need of counselling for a legal, medical, psychological, psychiatric or spiritual problem. But some people have found it invaluable as a supplement to the support they’re receiving elsewhere.
Tubbs
[ 13. January 2014, 12:05: Message edited by: Tubbs ]
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Tubbs nails it.
The only thing I would add is that serious discussion in Purg is allowed to be very vigorous in principle here. This is a place of unrest. Purg 4 Guideline has to be balanced against Commandment 3 freedoms to attack issues (but not the person) vigorously and critically.
This specific, limited, ruling on the balance between Purg Guideline 4 and Commandment 3, tries to bear both of these in mind in respect of a very particular life challenge. You can be sure that Hosts discussed this very point yesterday and the specific ruling reflects the balanced decision we came to.
Arguing about the point of balance is fine here. It is a judgment call, based on two long-established principles, both of which need to be borne in mind all the time. I hope this helps understanding about why some point of balance needed to be found in these special circumstances.
I've been doing this for about five years and this was one of the most difficult calls I've been required to consider during that time. That wasn't anyone's fault. It was just the way things turned out.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
The distinction back in the day was that if you put your heart on your sleeve in All Saints you should get nothing but affirmation, if you did so in Purgatory you were expected to put up with Smart Alecs asking you to clarify your terms and asking you if your reading of Haggai was not naive in the light of the Summa Kirkliche volume 2.7 and if you did so in Hell you were a blooming half wit.
I think that Scarlet is lovely and brave and wish her all the best but it is common or garden responsibility on the part of the Hosts and Admins to make clear the distinction between a bulletin board, largely inhabited by nice people, and somewhere you can get professional help, should you need it.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
I understand that there is a danger that someone might say something insensitive, but real life people may also be insensitive, may not know the whole story, may use the information against us -- and they know our real name and where we live.
What if Miss Molly had been told to take her problem to a real life person?
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
What if Miss Molly had been told to take her problem to a real life person?
She did. They were doctors. She didn't try to use the Ship to solve anything; she merely shared with us.
And that's the core of it. You're free to share. Just beware of the power of what personal information you share. The only thing we're officially prohibiting is any pretending that the Ship can be a primary support mechanism.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
It occurred to me that there may be many new Shipmates who have not ever read through "Fields of Gold." Miss Molly's shared journey. Here it is. Stored permanently in "Glory".
It is a long and extraordinary thread. Read it and be changed. I certainly was, on reading it as a comparatively new Shipmate. I love it.
You may draw your own conclusions about its relevance to this Purgatory ruling under discussion. I wouldn't presume to say anything at all.
In terms of the history of the Ship, and in the memories of folks there at the time, it is very much "hallowed ground". If you do read it, I would have a box of tissues close at hand.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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passer
Indigo
# 13329
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
It occurred to me that there may be many new Shipmates who have not ever read through "Fields of Gold." Miss Molly's shared journey. Here it is. Stored permanently in "Glory".
I've read it three times - blubbed every time. Best internet forum thread ever.
▲
Posts: 1289 | From: Sheffield | Registered: Jan 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Another thought in the "strangers on a plane" theme.
When relating an incident, we tend to think in terms of this happens to loads of people and therefore generic.
However, when reading such things, we tend to personalise. We tend to try to fit them into our world, thereby increasing the possibility of a correct answer even if the maths are wrong.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I understand that there is a danger that someone might say something insensitive, but real life people may also be insensitive, may not know the whole story, may use the information against us -- and they know our real name and where we live.
When the Ship is granted authority over 'real life people', we can start worrying about that one.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
I'm not questioning the decisions of the hosts & admins, I appreciate that decisions are made with everyone's best interests at heart. Having been a little involved in something similarish once I just wanted to pass on some thoughts FWIW, I can't obviously speak for Scarlett.
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
What if Miss Molly had been told to take her problem to a real life person?
She did. They were doctors. She didn't try to use the Ship to solve anything; she merely shared with us.
And that's the core of it. You're free to share. Just beware of the power of what personal information you share. The only thing we're officially prohibiting is any pretending that the Ship can be a primary support mechanism.
To be fair, Scarlett didn't actually ask for help in working things out either, she shared her thought processes and a little of her journey in response to relevant OPs and others' posts. She seems to have things worked out, albeit the perfectly understandable fear of pain is palpable and the struggle with God, but heaps of ppl have expressed their struggle with God and a lot of other issues on these boards, that's what the OP to which Scarlett responded was about.
As I said having some tangental involvement in something similar eons ago, I suspect that maybe there is a sense of hurt in having shared, in a perfectly rational way one's thoughts on a very important topic, and actually finding somewhere to discuss such things anonymously and sensibly, you feel shutdown and people treat you as though you are actually not of sound mind at the moment, or need to be "shutup" even though you know you are perfectly rational ie the "I am not demented yet' comment (I hear you Scarlett).
Nobody's fault, I totally understand the decision from the POV of the mods but I also empathise (or maybe this is all projection) with the sense of hurt and disappointment when your posts are reacted to in a way that you think is inappropriate/you didn't intend etc because I don't believe the posts in question were intended to be calls for help even though the risk, of course, is that other posters take them as such and this is what the mods were trying to prevent I think.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
To be fair, Scarlett didn't actually ask for help in working things out either
To be clear, Scarlett did nothing wrong and was never in any trouble. As has been pointed out several times.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
No need to be so defensive Rook, i didn't say she did, nor did I even say the hosts said she did, gheesh.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
So you're saying that tone can be easily mistaken in text form? Fascinating.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I can certainly see how Scarlet could have been upset by intervention when she thought she was on safe ground.
However, the reality is that in some (thankfully rare) instances, the discussion here suddenly hits the limitations of the medium big time.
It's hard to draw a firm line about this, but when posters' contributions can be read as having imminent, serious consequences on themselves and/or those around them in real life, these limitations suddenly hit one in the face - especially, perhaps, if one is a host or admin with a measure of responsibility on the Ship.
Of course, such posts may have been misunderstood, but this potential for misunderstanding when the stakes are so high is, in and of itself, a prime example of the limitations in question!
When this kind of situation arises, you get the kind of process that played itself out here. Feelings aside, it's part of us as a community establishing (or re-establishing) where some boundaries are. It's never going to be perfect, and because it involves distressing, unprecedented situations it's probably inevitable that it will be a bit messy.
[x-post with RooK]
[ 14. January 2014, 05:41: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Following these exchanges, Evangeline, right now one of my biggest personal concerns is the impact of these public discussions here on Scarlet herself. She may not be posting but she may be looking. I doubt very much whether she wants to be the centre of a theoretical cause célèbre. I'm trying very hard to avoid that.
As Tubbs has pointed out, as does the ruling, the policy behind this is not new and has been applied before. It has been learned by experiences on board and reflections on them. It is always very difficult to apply without causing some upset.
Any restriction of posting freedoms can be difficult to swallow. Particularly when, as in this case, it is a limitation applied partially to one very sensitive topic. Principles, yes. Hypothetical examples, yes, but with care please. Firm plans in a particular personal situation, no. None of which rules out supplementary and sensitive personal support, if and only if the Shipmate welcomes it, invites it. In Ship terms, certainly these days, that's the province of AS, rather than Purg.
I read you as understanding these things clearly, but regretting their impact. You're not the only one.
Sometimes we have to draw painful lines, here, if we are to be fair to all. Sometimes it feels like walking on eggshells to do so. This is definitely one of those times.
I hope we can avoid falling out with folks over this, but sometimes that does happen over the need to draw lines. It is always unfortunate when that happens. Please be assured of the goodwill which supports this.
Maybe a bit too personal, but I hope Styx Hosts will forgive me in these circumstances? I'm going to leave it there. You now know my head and my heart.
[ 14. January 2014, 07:27: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Nenya
Shipmate
# 16427
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
It occurred to me that there may be many new Shipmates who have not ever read through "Fields of Gold." Miss Molly's shared journey. Here it is. Stored permanently in "Glory".
I read that when I first started lurking here and over the past few days I have read it again. Hallowed ground indeed. It all happened long before I found this place but I still feel as though I knew and loved Miss Molly. Internet relationships are strange things.
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They told me I was delusional. I nearly fell off my unicorn.
Posts: 1289 | Registered: May 2011
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