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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Priestesses & bishopesses?
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by St. Punk the Pious:
What is someone does not consider someone a legitimate priest or bishop? I consider Katherine Jefferts Schori a raving apostate and therefore not a legitimate bishop of God's Holy Church. Am I allowed to put quotes around bishop, i.e. Presiding "Bishop" Schori, when referring to her?
...
Those points are well taken. Sometimes (usually?) courtesy is more important than making a point. But there are times, methinks, when refusing to indulge a pretense is called for. And one should certainly be allowed to so refuse with one's choice of words and/or grammar.
Courtesy an making a point are not mutually exclusive. In the particular example, there seems a simple solution. If you don't want to imply acceptance of the validity of someone's orders, what's wrong with simply omitting the title? Why not just call her Katherine Schori, or even Ms Schori (depending on your views of the use of "Ms")?
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
(depending on your views of the use of "Ms")
I'm afraid to ask, but is there a context in which "Ms" is controversial these days? It wasn't even a modern invention when it was brought back into vogue decades ago...
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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mertide
Shipmate
# 4500
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Posted
Perhaps Dr Schori, since she has a PhD.
Posts: 382 | From: Brisbane | Registered: May 2003
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
(depending on your views of the use of "Ms")
I'm afraid to ask, but is there a context in which "Ms" is controversial these days? It wasn't even a modern invention when it was brought back into vogue decades ago...
Imagine if every time you filled in an official form the form asked you about your partnership status. That is basically the question asked of women every time they are asked for their title.
Basically with title a woman has three choices:
Mrs = "I am married"
Miss = "I am single"
Ms = "I do not want to tell you my marital status"
A man is not required to tell their marital status. It puts the woman as a sexual object on official forms. Personally I would favour that women's title were brought into line with men's. That would mean anyone of 14 or over is addressed as Mrs. There is historic examples of such approach.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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St Deird
Shipmate
# 7631
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
A man is not required to tell their marital status. It puts the woman as a sexual object on official forms. Personally I would favour that women's title were brought into line with men's. That would mean anyone of 14 or over is addressed as Mrs.
...or as Ms.
This is not only my personal preference, but the convention used in modern publishing. All women who have not expressed a preference for a particular title are referred to as "Ms" until you're told otherwise. Regardless of their marital status.
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They're not hobbies; they're a robust post-apocalyptic skill-set.
Posts: 319 | From: the other side of nowhere | Registered: Jun 2004
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by St. Punk the Pious:
What is someone does not consider someone a legitimate priest or bishop? I consider Katherine Jefferts Schori a raving apostate and therefore not a legitimate bishop of God's Holy Church. Am I allowed to put quotes around bishop, i.e. Presiding "Bishop" Schori, when referring to her?
Also, could those who consider women priests or bishops in general not actual priests and bishops use quotes in a similar manner? (I am not quite that dogmatic myself. But if someone is, they should feel free to express that in their grammar.)
There's a reason those particular elements of punctuation have acquired the nickname "dick quotes".
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
I was under the impression that the use of a title merely indicated common usage and not approval. I presume I don't have to start using scare quotes, lest people assume that I believe the Church of Scientology has valid orders, that a Bishop in the Church of Latter Day Saints is a legitimate heir of the Apostles or that the Prophet Mohammed was inspired by God. Assuming one has something to say the difference between authority and courtesy should be implicit, if one merely wishes to sneer one could always refrain from posting.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mertide:
Perhaps Dr Schori, since she has a PhD.
Calling her Dr Schori would have the added advantage for those who recognize her apostolicity, as there is a convention that bishops, in their teaching office are doctors of the faith. This was the origin of the dodge (mechanism, if you will) for Irish RCs when referring to CoI bishops as Dr. It spared them having to refer to them as Bishop, but the use of Dr could be open to that interpretation. Or not.
The Holy See takes the approach, when addressing those whose orders they do not recognize, of courtesy. So Justin Welby is listed in Vatican documents as the Most Reverend and Right Honourable Justin Welby, Archbishop of Canterbury, and in ensuing references as Archbishop of Canterbury. Those who follow febrile and overexcited integrist RC blogs will often find postings decrying this as a gross misjudgement by the Vatican, with mutterings of those who pose to confect the Mass etc etc.
If the Vatican doesn't think that common courtesy undermines their theological position, I think that the rest of us can safely err on the side of politeness.
I still retain the use of priestess for the woman two blocks over who was charged a few years ago for sacrificing a raccoon (true!! but no conviction, as they could not prove that she killed the beast), and bishopess for any overbearing wife of a bishop, but outside those specific purposes, I see no point in the use.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mertide:
Perhaps Dr Schori, since she has a PhD.
Actually, Dr. Jefferts Schori. She uses a double last name.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
The talk of doctorates actually gave me brief pause for thought, because of the phenomenon of people buying their doctorates from online universities and the like.
These doctorates are widely viewed as fake, and not entitling the holder to legitimately be called Doctor.
This troubled me for a moment. Might the same argument mean that it's possible to argue that someone's ordination is not legitimate, and they're not entitled to be called priest or bishop?
And then I realised the answer was no. Because a fake doctorate is fake based on the illegitimacy of the institution, not of the individual. If one accepts calling male ordinands of the Church of England by their proper title, one is accepting the legitimacy of the Church of England to ordain people. To then try to say that their female ordinands are illegitimate is (1) trying to dictate the rules of the Church of England when you don't have authority in that Church and (2) rank sexism.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
And then I realised the answer was no. Because a fake doctorate is fake based on the illegitimacy of the institution, not of the individual.
But in RC and Orthodox eyes, it is indeed the institutions that are illegitimate. Justin Cantuar does not, in RC or Orthodox eyes, lack valid orders because of some personal failing, but because of an institutional defect in the Church of England.
You seem to be suggesting that it's OK to apply scare quotes to TEC's Presiding Bishop as long as you also apply scare quotes to Canterbury's Bishop.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by mertide:
Perhaps Dr Schori, since she has a PhD.
Actually, Dr. Jefferts Schori. She uses a double last name.
Though academic doctorates (hers is a PhD in Oceanography) tend not to be used outside of academic or research settings.
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spinner of webs
Posts: 1093 | From: San Francisco Bay area | Registered: Dec 2010
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Just because it is old, does not make it right. Still seems like priestess or bishopess to me.
I think it's different from those, because it is a term that JUST applies to Mary, and it denotes a different form of mediation from Jesus'. He is called the Mediator between us and God (1 Tim 2:5, "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus"), but only he mediates the way he mediates (by dying for us), whereas Mary's mediation is of a different sort (by praying for us as the Mother of God). So a different term is warranted (indeed, needed). It's not a term for women mediators in general; in my experience it's just used for Mary. (Hence the capital "M".)
Women aviators don't fly in a different way from men aviators, and women priests in the Anglican communion don't priestify in different ways from men priests, so having a feminine term is unneeded, unwarranted, and offensive in this day and age. But "Mediatrix" as applied to Mary is not parallel to either of those.
I would also say that for any other woman who mediates, in whatever context, the word is offensive and should not be used.
quote:
Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:
I have absolutely no difficulty in accepting "someone's statement that using certain words is hurtful" as mousethief put it, not least as I was the one making that statement about how hurtful and offensive I found the use of the terms...
What I don't understand is exactly what mousethief's point was.
On the contrary. Obviously, you do. I apologize for reading you wrong.
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
"schismatics" Weren't they a punk band in the 70's?
Ha! If they weren't, they should have been. With righteous guitar riffs and off-key vocals.
All 70s punk bands had off-key vocals. I think it was in the papers you had to sign before they let you become a punk band.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
And then I realised the answer was no. Because a fake doctorate is fake based on the illegitimacy of the institution, not of the individual.
But in RC and Orthodox eyes, it is indeed the institutions that are illegitimate. Justin Cantuar does not, in RC or Orthodox eyes, lack valid orders because of some personal failing, but because of an institutional defect in the Church of England.
You seem to be suggesting that it's OK to apply scare quotes to TEC's Presiding Bishop as long as you also apply scare quotes to Canterbury's Bishop.
That is precisely what I'm suggesting. If someone puts quotes around male priests and bishops then they are doing something entirely different from the "priestess" and "bishopess" business that gets directed at women.
And I'm also suggesting that the Ship hasn't seen a major outbreak of quotes around "priest" or "bishop". Because people don't seem to want to try that, in the way they seem to want to have a go at female priests and bishops.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Net Spinster:
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by mertide:
Perhaps Dr Schori, since she has a PhD.
Actually, Dr. Jefferts Schori. She uses a double last name.
Though academic doctorates (hers is a PhD in Oceanography) tend not to be used outside of academic or research settings.
YMMV, but here in the UK it is perfectly usual for clergy with doctorates to use the title, whatever their doctorate is in. In fact ++Welby is the first ABC since I don't know when not to have a doctorate (admittedly mostly DDs, but latterly- Carey and Wiiliams- PhDs) and it seems odd not to be able to refer to him as 'Dr Welby'.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:
quote:
Originally posted by mousething
On the contrary. Obviously, you do.
You got me. I had an inkling.
quote:
Originally posted by mousething
I apologize for reading you wrong.
Thanks.
"Mousething"? Puh-leeze. Nice return for what I tried to make a gracious apology. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
Messing with people's names like that is both a personal attack and a really good way to get into an Admin's bad books. I strongly recommend that you don't do it again.
Marvin
Admin
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
A worthy discussion, and my 2¢ worth. This is a site with religious content and discussion, so the specific terms become sensitive because they can be personalized to either other posters or to people shipmates know, respect and love. Using them is thus bad manners in addition to being offensive. Using offensive terms to reference homosexuality, nationality and race may also have the same sort of double effect of being both bad manners to some shipmates and also generally offensive. Thus I think it is more possible to get away with terms that don't reference specific people on the Ship. Thus fucktard is accepted it appears (a contraction of fucking retard), but I understand that past rudeness related to Asperger's created problems because some shipmates identify themselves with this condition.
As a comparison I am interested in reports of Canadians teaching school children in the UK where UK personnel have no idea that fun activities regarding "red Indians" is offensive and likely a straightforward human rights complaint in Canada. So context is important. Commandment #5 reads in part about trying not to have hurt feelings, though I expect that the causing of hurt feelings and perhaps outrage is precisely what some posters enjoy, at least at times.
[ 24. July 2014, 16:01: Message edited by: no prophet ]
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
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iamchristianhearmeroar
Shipmate
# 15483
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Messing with people's names like that is both a personal attack and a really good way to get into an Admin's bad books. I strongly recommend that you don't do it again.
Marvin
Admin
mousethief you have my apologies. It was completely inadvertent and not intended as a personal attack. I only noticed when you pointed it out to me. Won't happen again.
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My blog: http://alastairnewman.wordpress.com/
Posts: 642 | From: London, UK | Registered: Feb 2010
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:
mousethief you have my apologies.
Thank you.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
I thought "Ms" was the standard in professional usage ever since... like... the 1970s? ![[Confused]](confused.gif) Indeed, precisely because it is parallel to Mr.
You'd think, wouldn't you? The hospital unit I currently work for still labels its post to the female consultants as 'Miss.....'. Sometimes an occasional 'Ms' appears, but even the consultants' own secretaries tend to 'Miss' them. Still, I suppose we ought to be grateful that girls are allowed to be doctors at all ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) .
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
The hospital unit I currently work for still labels its post to the female consultants as 'Miss.....'. Sometimes an occasional 'Ms' appears, but even the consultants' own secretaries tend to 'Miss' them. Still, I suppose we ought to be grateful that girls are allowed to be doctors at all .
But surely consultants should be addressed as Dr??? Are the male consultants Mr or Dr?
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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Drifting Star
Drifting against the wind
# 12799
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Posted
It's normal for a (male) consultant to be addressed as Mr - weird, but for some reason once they reach that level they drop the 'Dr' and return to being 'Mr'.
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The soul is dyed the color of its thoughts. Heraclitus
Posts: 3126 | From: A thin place. | Registered: Jul 2007
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
Still, I suppose we ought to be grateful that girls are allowed to be doctors at all .
The proportion in Canada was about 30%, 15 years ago. It's approximately half today. 10 years from now it will be more than half given the proportion in training. About titles, doctors' tendency to call patients first names has led to patients doing the same with doctors. Priests are usually first names these days too.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Drifting Star:
It's normal for a (male) consultant to be addressed as Mr - weird, but for some reason once they reach that level they drop the 'Dr' and return to being 'Mr'.
I've always assumed that this was a kind of inverted snobbery - how do you distinguish the top brass from the common run of doctor? Why, by not calling them doctor. It doesn't seem to work in other professions, the commander of a warship isn't called midshipman.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Abigail
Shipmate
# 1672
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Drifting Star:
It's normal for a (male) consultant to be addressed as Mr - weird, but for some reason once they reach that level they drop the 'Dr' and return to being 'Mr'.
I've always assumed that this was a kind of inverted snobbery - how do you distinguish the top brass from the common run of doctor? Why, by not calling them doctor. It doesn't seem to work in other professions, the commander of a warship isn't called midshipman.
I'd always thought it was just surgeons who were called Mr?
I know that when I was last in hospital the surgeon who did my op was "Mr X" but the consultant who referred me to him and who followed me up for a couple of years after that was "Dr Y"
(Though that was 20 years ago; things could have changed)
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The older I get the less I know.
Posts: 505 | From: London | Registered: Nov 2001
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Heavenly Anarchist
Shipmate
# 13313
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Posted
Yes, they are called Mr after they pass the surgeon exams. I must look it up but I presume the tradition comes from the fact that medieval surgeons were not medically qualified doctors but barber-surgeons called in to do cutting and bleeding, though obviously the title developed a high status when the two were combined as professions.
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'I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.' Douglas Adams
Dog Activity Monitor
My shop
Posts: 2831 | From: Trumpington | Registered: Jan 2008
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I think that's right. Surgical consultants are called Mr, but not medical ones. But in the UK anybody can call themselves Dr, e.g. dentists, or greengrocers (I think).
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
Still, I suppose we ought to be grateful that girls are allowed to be doctors at all .
The proportion in Canada was about 30%, 15 years ago. It's approximately half today. 10 years from now it will be more than half given the proportion in training. About titles, doctors' tendency to call patients first names has led to patients doing the same with doctors. Priests are usually first names these days too.
I have found that my mother (80s) and her contemporaries call their physicians Dr Bill or Dr Emily. My own GP firstnames me in private, and it is Mr The Aleut in front of her staff. My specialist is old-school South Asian and he gets Dr Rajput and he calls me Mr The Aleut, and introduces me formally to his interns, whom he calls his "young lady surgeons." One of them told me that this was the first time she realized that she was a young lady surgeon.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Heavenly Anarchist
Shipmate
# 13313
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Posted
They do not even have to be Consultants, just pass the surgical exams; many Senior Registrars and sometimes Clinical Assistants are Mr/Ms.
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'I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.' Douglas Adams
Dog Activity Monitor
My shop
Posts: 2831 | From: Trumpington | Registered: Jan 2008
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
This is all fascinating stuff but is straying a long way from Ship business. Perhaps Heaven would be a more suitable place to talk about peoples' titles
Spike
Styx Host
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I think that's right. Surgical consultants are called Mr, but not medical ones. But in the UK anybody can call themselves Dr, e.g. dentists, or greengrocers (I think).
According to the source of all wisdom:
quote:
In the House of Commons of the United Kingdom on 19 January 1996, health minister Gerald Malone noted that the title doctor had never been restricted to either medical practitioners or those with doctoral degrees in the UK, commenting that the word was defined by common usage but that the titles "physician, doctor of medicine, licentiate in medicine and surgery, bachelor of medicine, surgeon, general practitioner and apothecary" did have special protection in law.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
I'll assume we crossposted and you didn't read my comment above!
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
I'll assume we crossposted and you didn't read my comment above!
![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) Lo siento señor, I did indeed miss your post.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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luvanddaisies
the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
As a comparison I am interested in reports of Canadians teaching school children in the UK where UK personnel have no idea that fun activities regarding "red Indians" is offensive and likely a straightforward human rights complaint in Canada.
"Red Indian" has been an obvious definite no-go unacceptable term all my life, and I'm 35, so they must have found a really odd part of the UK, maybe the creche at a UKIP party conference?
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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)
Posts: 3711 | From: all at sea. | Registered: Apr 2004
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rugasaw
Shipmate
# 7315
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
"Red Indian" has been an obvious definite no-go unacceptable term all my life, and I'm 35, so they must have found a really odd part of the UK, maybe the creche at a UKIP party conference?
And yet when I was in England last summer the two natives I met that were informed that I was the "token Indian" of our group referred to Native Americans as "Red Indians". As I never used that term the more aware used the term I was using the less aware continued referring to me as a "Red Indian" until we parted ways.
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Treat the earth well, It was not given to you by your parents. It was loaned to you by your children. -Unknown
Posts: 2716 | From: Houston | Registered: Jun 2004
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
"Red Indian" has been an obvious definite no-go unacceptable term all my life, and I'm 35
I think you have either a short memory, or an experience that is not universal. In your youth, and mine, the TV schedules regularly featured American "Cowboys and Indians" type TV shows. I recall plenty of conversations from the late 80s and early 90s where someone would ask for clarification with "Red Indian, or Indian Indian?" with no sense that it was derogatory.
Currently, amazon.co.uk sells "Red Indian" costumes, toys and the like.
Here is a 2008 newspaper article referring to a man as a "Red Indian". Also see rugasaw's first-hand experience above.
[ 07. August 2014, 01:12: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
As people seem incapable of taking heed of my earlier host post about staying on topic, this thread is now closed
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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