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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Meditation-- outward or inward?
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
I have participated in yoga meditation in which the leader encourages the student to become more and more aware of their interior state-- their breathing, heartbeat, mental imaging, and so forth. It works for me, although at this point it works better for me if I am guided.
I wrote a reflection for a meditation instructor at school, though, and in it I mentioned something that has been happening to me since I was a kid-- when I look down into a patch of clear water, like a stream or lagoon, my perspective immediately shifts to the floor of that body of water, like I was standing there. I become intensely immersed in what I am seeing, to the point where I tune out everything else. It feels less like I am examining my inner self and more like I am escaping "self" altogether.
Something else I tried-- I think as a writing prompt, but it turned out to be contemplative-- was sitting in front of Mission Dolores and focusing on listening. Not interpreting or evaluating what I was hearing, just opening my ears and letting stuff come in.
Again, as I said elsewhere, I can have fierce monkey brain, and without some guiding structure more interior reflective meditation puts me at risk of mental auto- cannibalism. But focusing on something outside of myself seems to help shut the brain down a bit. Thoughts?
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
I forgot to say-- the instructor underlined my story about water- gazing and added the note: " THIS IS MEDITATION," which surprised me, as I hadn't thought of it that way.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
The busy mind is one of the reasons I understand Yoga is popular. Sitting still means my brain can wander more readily, when instead, with some form of physical activity, you are forced into the moment because holding the contorted position as in yoga creates some strain that distracts the mind from the non-now. I tried yoga for about 3 years and found this. Though it's not really my thing due to the desire to either have no meditative focus in some classes or to go into some (for me) odd Sanskrit chanting and gongs etc.
People who run and experience the runner's high are also doing this. Some will discuss time compression, where the 2 hours seems to have been only 1/2 an hour; or that they thought of some particular problem or issue and more able to focus on it. There is a biochemical explanation - the release of endorphins and other neurochemicals - with physical activity, but experienced exercisers often seem to plug into the 'zone' before activity has had the chance to engage the neurochem.
In your other thread on Lectio Divina, I refrained from commenting because this inward, inactive approach absolutely misses for me and I could only comment negatively. But I have done active meditative activity for most of my life. As an example that diverges from the more usual physical activity, on my recent 2 weeks at a lake, I baked bread every 3 days (the method I use takes 3 days, a slow traditional method, with the daily activity being kneading, rolling and stretching by hand (you work up a sweat) and baking on wood (I bake each week at home, but not on wood). Been baking like this for about 26 years I think.
I also recite to myself pieces of liturgy** or some particular musical phrase while cycling to work and/or when out with the dog at 6 a.m. weekdays. To use a syllable of a phrase or a musical note with each breath can be a helpful approach as well. I've been doing this for probably about 10 years.
** this Collect is the most usual for me:
Almighty God, to you all hearts are open, all desires known,
and from you no secrets are hidden.
Cleanse the thoughts of my heart by the inspiration of your holy spirit, that we may
perfectly love you, and worthily magnify your holy name, through Christ our Lord.
-- so my conclusion is that quiet sitting meditative activity works for some, and for others of us, not so much. I need physical activity for my well being and to quiet the mind.
[ 04. September 2014, 16:42: Message edited by: no prophet ]
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
But focusing on something outside of myself seems to help shut the brain down a bit. Thoughts?
The outside focus helps bypass the inward turmoil. That is how it seems to work for me. When my mind is quieted, it can then ignore the outside and travel inward. Water, wind and fire.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I don't focus much on anything. I try to push every thought gently away until not much is left.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
I have found that eastern techniques can help to calm me before the meditation, but unlike meditation from the east, I find that the actual meditation in a Christian context is not about the Ommmmmmmmmy stuff but quite the opposite. I don't try to empty my mind, but fill it.
So I concentrate on something. It could be a portion of scripture, or an aspect of God or something else, but the best way to clear things from my mind is to think about something else. I find that repeating the Jesus prayer, Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, the sinner, helps.
I find something to focus on has more meaning than a meaningless mantra. But hey, that's just me.
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Last ever sig ...
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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StevHep
Shipmate
# 17198
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Posted
I write about this sort of thing quite a lot on my blog. ISTM that the focus of meditation for Christians is above all else a personal relationship. That can be expressed at times with words and at times without, at times with images and at times without. Rather than fixing on a single technique and rigidly sticking to it as The Way we should perhaps recall that we do not apply this approach to our other relationships.
Sometimes having a short prayer or scripture text as a background to our silence is immensely helpful. The philosopher Simone Weil likened it to standing on a mountain and being aware of the things in our immediate vicinity while giving our attention to the grand vista. When this isn't helpful then pictures or statues can play a similar role. A form of prayer like the Rosary can involve images, words and the activity of our hands.
It is always important to recall that we are not spirit only but body soul and spirit. Each part of ourselves and all three parts united are involved in our relationship with God. Finding some way to involve the whole person in our prayer and meditation life is more likely to make it fruitful than having a one sided emphasis on one aspect alone.
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My Blog Catholic Scot
http://catholicscot.blogspot.co.uk/
@stevhep on Twitter
Posts: 241 | From: Exeter | Registered: Jul 2012
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
balaam: I have found that eastern techniques can help to calm me before the meditation, but unlike meditation from the east, I find that the actual meditation in a Christian context is not about the Ommmmmmmmmy stuff but quite the opposite. I don't try to empty my mind, but fill it.
I guess it depends on each person. Emptying your mind can mean make space for God to get in, if She wants.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
What LeRoc said. My first experience with meditation, in which a leader gently guided a group into mental quietness, made me think, " boy have I been cheated out of something nourishing!"
I say "cheated" because I grew up in that era where mainstream Christianity was fighting a swell of interest in "eastern religion" by declaring anything connected to it as " demonic" . My current belief about inner meditation of the blank mind variety is that allowing yourself to relinquish your thought is a very profound act of faith God. Or, at the very least, an acknowledgement that the world will go on without you thinking it into submission.
As I said, I suck at it, but I do see the benefits.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I agree, Kelly. Christians ought to have the sense to trust God to guard their hearts and minds at all times. The whole "demons might invade an empty mind" is just bullshit. What do they think the Holy Spirit is doing while you meditate, just sitting on his hands?
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I agree. The stuff about demons is what comes out of the South end of a male bovine that's facing North.
Many Christians who practice Zen-like empty-your-mind meditation point to 1 Kings 19:11–13. When we let the storms and the raging fire in our minds subside, God might manifest Herself in the silence.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
Sorry, but that's just moving from one prejudice to another. That all "mind emptying" is good, or at least unproblematic, is just as unrealistic as saying that it is the preferred playground of demons.
Speaking from the perspective of (Zen) Buddhism, where I have some experience: Practically every branch of Buddhism has a demonology, though it is highly variable across sects. And yes, these demons are said to attack those who meditate. You can consider this as real or as metaphor, in practice that doesn't really matter. Hence any Buddhist teacher worth his or her salt will tell you that one thing to expect as your meditation practice becomes more regular and deep is the occurrence of hallucinations, illusions, delusions and just plain "weird thoughts". And if you visit a proper Zen sesshin (4-5 hours sleep a day, ritualised eating, 6-8 hours meditation, the rest of the time filled with manual labour, essentially no talking - for about a week) on about day three, then I think you will find that pushing the envelope on meditation can push people to the brink of a nervous breakdown. (Yours truly included, and I really am not easy to break down.)
If I may make an analogy, for me the approach of many people in the West is like somebody standing in the busy Moscow central square in deep winter, but wrapped in thirty layers of clothing with active heating elements powered by batteries - and sweating their ass off. Now someone comes and tells them that taking their clothes off is a good idea. So they take off one of their many jackets - what a relief! Then they begin to strip in earnest, and as they do they become more and more enthusiastic about it. Now somebody else comes along and tells them that standing naked in the busy central square of Moscow in deep winter is not entirely unproblematic either. This however is then laughed off as alarmist - after all, taking clothes off feels really good right now.
Anyway, most people have an incoherent idea about this. On one hand they think meditation is powerful stuff, on the other hand they think it is unproblematic. Power is never unproblematic.
I could go on about the problems I see with adapting meditation techniques across religious boundaries, but that is a contentious topic where proper "data" is hard to come by. However, from a (non-politically correct) Buddhist perspective, what happened to me is basically that while making progress in Zen meditation I got stuck on a fairly specific delusion and therefore ultimately ended up becoming a Christian. That should be food for some thought... It is an often repeated falsehood that all religions converge in their "mystic" branches. Not so, that is confusing experiential epiphenomena with spiritual enlightenment.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
However, from a (non-politically correct) Buddhist perspective, what happened to me is basically that while making progress in Zen meditation I got stuck on a fairly specific delusion and therefore ultimately ended up becoming a Christian. That should be food for some thought...
Would you mind sharing your fairly specific delusion that made you become a Christian? I practise a particular type of charismatic meditation and it was an experience (delusion?) in that that made me a Christian so I'm curious.
I have not given up my meditation however. It works in concert with my religion.
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
It is an often repeated falsehood that all religions converge in their "mystic" branches. Not so, that is confusing experiential epiphenomena with spiritual enlightenment.
Could you say more about this too? I generally subscribe to the above "falsehood". What is the difference between experiential epiphenomena and spiritual enlightenment?. I'm of the opinion the external frameworks (culture, religion etc) are the interpreters of experienced spiritual phenomena but that at base level they come from the same "mystical" experience. You would disagree?
[ 10. September 2014, 09:52: Message edited by: Evensong ]
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a theological scrapbook
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
At Taizé this year there was a guy in my group who lives in a Jesuit community where they meet at 6 :30 in the morning every day for half an hour of silent prayer/meditation (yes, I find the idea of this terrifying. Ten minutes later in the day is one thing, but half an hour at freaking 6:30 in the morning?? ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) ).
He said that the thing about distracting thoughts is that you shouldn’t necessarily try to chase them off. Accept that something is calling for your attention. It will probably go on calling for your attention as long as you ignore it. So instead, welcome the thought, accept it, reconcile it. Then you can go back to the stillness.
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Rent my holiday home in the South of France
Posts: 3696 | Registered: Nov 2005
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
IngoB: Sorry, but that's just moving from one prejudice to another. That all "mind emptying" is good, or at least unproblematic, is just as unrealistic as saying that it is the preferred playground of demons.
I am not saying that all mind emptying is good. Neither am I saying that what I'm doing is exactly what Zen monks do. That's why I called it 'Zen-like'. I'm not anywhere near doing a 'proper Zen session', and I agree that if you'd attempt this you'd need proper guidance. FWIW I don't believe in demons.
quote:
la vie en rouge: He said that the thing about distracting thoughts is that you shouldn’t necessarily try to chase them off. Accept that something is calling for your attention. It will probably go on calling for your attention as long as you ignore it. So instead, welcome the thought, accept it, reconcile it. Then you can go back to the stillness.
If that works for you, great. I guess there are different ways of doing this, and each can have his/her personal preferences.
In the way I've learned it, I don't try to 'chase off' distracting thoughts. I've learned to gently push them away, which I guess implies accepting that they exist.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Would you mind sharing your fairly specific delusion that made you become a Christian? I practise a particular type of charismatic meditation and it was an experience (delusion?) in that that made me a Christian so I'm curious.
It is a delusion from a Buddhist perspective. Obviously I disagree with that judgement, hence I became (eventually) Christian.
Anyway, in deep shikantaza (Soto Zen "just sitting" meditation) I found within me not anātman (not-self), but ātman (self). While much about me "dissolved", a "spark" remained. This "spark" to me appeared not as a final delusion to destroy, but as a true (and beautiful) thing. Furthermore, I was becoming aware of a presence. Not frankly in the typical "me and my buddy Jesus" sense that seems common to many Christians, which I doubt I will ever understand. More like sitting in a tent at night with no flashlight and just at the edge of sensory awareness one detects that there is some big animal moving about outside. Quietly drawing closer. Frankly, it wasn't so much a "how wonderful" feeling but more a "holy shit, what is that" one...
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I have not given up my meditation however. It works in concert with my religion.
As I've said elsewhere, I consider contemplation (what we are now used to call meditation) as the most appropriate prayer, with liturgical / communal / set prayer on step down, and spontaneous "babbling to God" prayer being the least valuable. So my comments certainly shouldn't be understood as suggesting that one should stop doing this. However, this stuff isn't "dummy proof" at all. People sell contemplation like it is some kind of fitness program. But even doing fitness on your own following some video tape, you can easily end up pulling a muscle. If you get a problem with contemplation, you pull your mind. That just is dangerous stuff. These things can be powerful if done intensely, and from a purely secular "psychological" perspective one should note that organised contemplation as one finds among the religious (monks and nuns) of various religions bear some resemblance to "mind breaking" techniques used in prisons and by secret services (isolation cells, sleep deprivation, disruption of personal communication, strict routines and schedules, ...).
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Could you say more about this too? I generally subscribe to the above "falsehood". What is the difference between experiential epiphenomena and spiritual enlightenment?. I'm of the opinion the external frameworks (culture, religion etc) are the interpreters of experienced spiritual phenomena but that at base level they come from the same "mystical" experience. You would disagree?
Strongly. To me this is like saying that all sport is equal, because you find that in every sport your muscles get pumped and you end up sweating. This means confusing the "mechanics" with the "essence". But tennis is not swimming is not judo. Or it means having the "wrong" sort of approach to the whole thing, one which again has a sports analogy. Namely, it looks as sport as merely a tool to "get fit and lose weight". In that case indeed what sport one follows does not really matter. You want the calorie burn, not the sport as such. The reported similarities between mystic experiences all are at the level of such epiphenomena in my opinion. The real interesting thing is however that a Christian mystic is not the same as a Buddhist mystic. Or perhaps, that they should not be, because they actually do have rather different religions. If they report being "just the same", that to me means that they got hooked on the experiential "pay out" of contemplation practice (like being hooked on the fitness aspect of sports) and have forgotten that this was a means to an end, not the end itself.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Would you mind sharing your fairly specific delusion that made you become a Christian? I practise a particular type of charismatic meditation and it was an experience (delusion?) in that that made me a Christian so I'm curious.
It is a delusion from a Buddhist perspective. Obviously I disagree with that judgement, hence I became (eventually) Christian.
Anyway, in deep shikantaza (Soto Zen "just sitting" meditation) I found within me not anātman (not-self), but ātman (self). While much about me "dissolved", a "spark" remained. This "spark" to me appeared not as a final delusion to destroy, but as a true (and beautiful) thing. Furthermore, I was becoming aware of a presence. Not frankly in the typical "me and my buddy Jesus" sense that seems common to many Christians, which I doubt I will ever understand. More like sitting in a tent at night with no flashlight and just at the edge of sensory awareness one detects that there is some big animal moving about outside. Quietly drawing closer. Frankly, it wasn't so much a "how wonderful" feeling but more a "holy shit, what is that" one...
Fascinating! Thank you for sharing.
I like your description of finding your "self" as a true and beautiful thing. This has also been something of my experience in deep meditation.
In terms of your "holy shit, what is that" - I can see why something like that would make you cautious (as per some of your other comments)!
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a theological scrapbook
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
The real interesting thing is however that a Christian mystic is not the same as a Buddhist mystic. Or perhaps, that they should not be, because they actually do have rather different religions. If they report being "just the same", that to me means that they got hooked on the experiential "pay out" of contemplation practice (like being hooked on the fitness aspect of sports) and have forgotten that this was a means to an end, not the end itself.
What is the end itself?
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a theological scrapbook
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Anyway, most people have an incoherent idea about this. On one hand they think meditation is powerful stuff, on the other hand they think it is unproblematic. Power is never unproblematic.
Any tool must be wielded properly and with respect to what it can do. But I see no difference in this respect between meditation and prayer.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
It depends on what you mean by meditation. If you do a week-long retreat, meditating 16 hours a day, it is very powerful, and potentially dangerous. You have to screen people, and check that there is no-one who is too fragile. In fact, we used to pull people off, if they started to talk nonsense.
I think this connects with the techniques being used; we have a communication period, where people can release stuff. It does help.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Fascinating! Thank you for sharing.
I think talking about contemplative experience is like talking about your sex life. It is really difficult to hit the right tone with that, when talking to others, and the internet is generally not where you would want to do it.
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
In terms of your "holy shit, what is that" - I can see why something like that would make you cautious (as per some of your other comments)!
I have also had other experiences, and for example mentioned on SoF before the more "positive" experience when praying before a Marian icon. In fact, I think zazen (Zen meditation) delivered to me exactly what it could be expected to deliver about God. I consider contemplative techniques as fairly precise tools that have quite predictable effects. The "fuzziness" of results has more to do with the skill of the operator than the tool. Just like a hammer is a really good tool for driving nails into a wall, even if the results that you get from handing a hundred people a hammer and a nail are quite variable.
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
What is the end itself?
That depends on the religion, doesn't it? Again, the analogy to sports is helpful. If you ask what is the end of playing football, then obviously you get a variety of answers from different people. But there is something like a common denominator which has to do with shooting more goals than the opposing team. That is a lot unlike the "common denominator" end of judo, which has to do with throwing your single opponent to the mat. It is a lot more like the "common denominator" of say basketball, where the goal is throwing more hoops than the opposing team. Still, we can start looking at the detail and we find that there are characteristic differences that make these sports different enough to not be the same.
Likewise, the "common denominator" end of Christianity is attaining salvation through Christ and spending an eternity of bliss in heaven with God. (At the same level of precision as my description of football above...) That is quite different from the "common denominator" end of Buddhism, which has to do with attaining enlightenment and dissolving attachment to exit the cycle of rebirths into nothingness. It is a lot more similar to the "common denominator" goal of Islam, where one also also wants to go to heaven to be with God. But there are characteristic differences ... well, you can probably tell me more about those than I can tell you.
Actually the point I'm trying to make is perhaps best illustrated by what happened to me. I was following a contemplative Buddhist technique (Zen meditation), and ended up becoming a Christian. If we have the attitude that contemplation is its own end, then that's perfectly fine of course. The religious conversion is basically irrelevant, what matters is that I had significant transcendent experiences. But this is decidedly not what the religions teach. This includes Zen, by the way, in spite of its typical sales pitch (at least in the West), which pretends that it is somehow prior to religion rather than simply being one. As far as Christianity is concerned, what happened to me is good (a grace from the Holy Spirit leading me towards salvation), as far as Zen is concerned what happened to me is bad (delusional attachment to self leading me away from the path to enlightenment). The contemplative event is judged according the work it does for a religious purpose.
Contemplation attains its significance by religious context. To say that all contemplation is equal is to ignore this context. It puts the cart before the horse.
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Any tool must be wielded properly and with respect to what it can do. But I see no difference in this respect between meditation and prayer.
(Christian) prayer includes contemplative techniques similar to (Eastern) meditation, and it is hardly surprising that upon comparing two similar things one finds them similar. But I assume that you mean by "prayer" some more narrow definition, roughly "talking to God".
I think it's a bit like scaling a mountain, where different paths are available. Going up the Eiger north face is both the most direct (or perhaps "most glorious") route and the most dangerous one. You could try the Mittellegi Ridge instead to get to the summit. It's a choice.
One of the "problems" with Eastern meditation, well, really with most prayer techniques, is that they tend to be beneficial when they are not working as far as their spiritual purpose is concerned. Yoga is the classical example, where the health benefits have basically overrun the original religious purpose. But Eastern meditation is going down the same path. Probably by now more people do "meditation" for improving their relaxation and concentration than for anything spiritual. One should really look into the subtle changes such reorientation in purpose bring. But I haven't properly done so...
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I've received training and instructions for the meditation technique I use, from someone I really trust. (She's a Catholic priest, what's not to trust? ![[Biased]](wink.gif) )
It's been a while, but IIRC she started the first session by saying "This training is for people who'd like to try a relatively light form of meditation. If you're seeking a deeper meditational life, I urge you to seek guidance that's adequate to the level you want to immerse yourself in" or something of the kind.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
She's a Catholic priest, what's not to trust?
That.
But anyway, I'm curious, what did you learn to do?
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Likewise, the "common denominator" end of Christianity is attaining salvation through Christ and spending an eternity of bliss in heaven with God.
I can't see how this relates to meditation, because how I meditate today does not affect my salvation, that was all done by someone else 2000 years ago.
The aim of Christian meditation is about relationship. We can sometimes experience something of the salvation we have already got through meditation, but the end is not attaining or experiencing salvation as much as experiencing God.
As for the idea above that some people meditate in order to relax, I've never been able to relax unless I am relaxed.
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
IngoB: But anyway, I'm curious, what did you learn to do?
Simple, really. Some kind of lotus position, focus on breathing, gently letting go of your thoughts.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Fascinating! Thank you for sharing.
I think talking about contemplative experience is like talking about your sex life. It is really difficult to hit the right tone with that, when talking to others, and the internet is generally not where you would want to do it.
I agree that it's awkward and you do have to get the right tone. You're generally construed as a loony by many.
But in this age of postmodernism and "the experience of God" being so important I personally think it's vital that we share our experiences.
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Likewise, the "common denominator" end of Christianity is attaining salvation through Christ and spending an eternity of bliss in heaven with God. (At the same level of precision as my description of football above...) That is quite different from the "common denominator" end of Buddhism, which has to do with attaining enlightenment and dissolving attachment to exit the cycle of rebirths into nothingness. It is a lot more similar to the "common denominator" goal of Islam, where one also also wants to go to heaven to be with God. But there are characteristic differences ... well, you can probably tell me more about those than I can tell you.
Actually the point I'm trying to make is perhaps best illustrated by what happened to me. I was following a contemplative Buddhist technique (Zen meditation), and ended up becoming a Christian. If we have the attitude that contemplation is its own end, then that's perfectly fine of course. The religious conversion is basically irrelevant, what matters is that I had significant transcendent experiences. But this is decidedly not what the religions teach. This includes Zen, by the way, in spite of its typical sales pitch (at least in the West), which pretends that it is somehow prior to religion rather than simply being one. As far as Christianity is concerned, what happened to me is good (a grace from the Holy Spirit leading me towards salvation), as far as Zen is concerned what happened to me is bad (delusional attachment to self leading me away from the path to enlightenment). The contemplative event is judged according the work it does for a religious purpose.
Contemplation attains its significance by religious context. To say that all contemplation is equal is to ignore this context. It puts the cart before the horse.
Couldn't agree more. The people that say all religions are the same have no idea.
And those that engage in particular spiritual practices with no religion to ground them are simply going along with the values of whoever happens to be teaching the practise - even if it's wrapped in vague spiritual ideas.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
I can't see how this relates to meditation, because how I meditate today does not affect my salvation, that was all done by someone else 2000 years ago.
I take it then that you believe that you simply are saved, rather than that you have to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling (Phil 2:12). Then of course not only meditation, but indeed each and every aspect of spiritual life - prayer, going to Church, charitable deeds, ... - does not relate to salvation, because your salvation is not affected by it. In my experience, it is best to flat out ignore such paradoxical ideology and let action speak louder than words. De facto, you are working out your own salvation, and if you cannot acknowledge that then that doesn't particularly matter to me.
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
The aim of Christian meditation is about relationship. We can sometimes experience something of the salvation we have already got through meditation, but the end is not attaining or experiencing salvation as much as experiencing God.
I will just ignore this horribly false dichotomy (relationship with God vs. attaining salvation), and rather consider the bit that is interesting: indeed, I agree that theistic contemplation has to differ from atheistic (Buddhist) one by taking into account the Other - God. This is precisely why I think that all those Jesuit priests styling themselves as Zen roshis (masters) are constantly undermining their Christian faith with their Zen practice. Contemplative practices are not neutral.
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
As for the idea above that some people meditate in order to relax, I've never been able to relax unless I am relaxed.
I assume this was supposed to be "meditate unless I am relaxed". Properly taught meditation is a method, a technique, and if practiced diligently will become habitual. If you have to be "in the mood" before you can meditate, then that simply shows that you have not be taught or have not practiced enough. Obviously, there are times where meditation is much more challenging. But all this is exactly as with any other human skill. If you now and then play a bit of football, then perhaps you need to feel fit and happy to pull off a good game. If you are an enthusiastic amateur or professional, who constantly practices, then you can pull off a good game most of the time. And even when you are severely challenged (some minor injury, some emotional hardship, lack of sleep, ...) you typically will be able to deliver a half-decent performance. People who diligently practice meditation for its health effects (basically relaxation and concentration) do so precisely because they become habituated by practice to move their mind into this kind of state. You learn to relax and concentrate at will. That's the very point. And yes, it does work, and pretty much for everybody. For most people it takes about a year or two of regular practice to get there, and from a non-religious health perspective I think it is well worth the effort.
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Simple, really. Some kind of lotus position, focus on breathing, gently letting go of your thoughts.
That's more or less shikantaza, Soto Zen style "just sitting" meditation, which is what I used to do rather intensely. So what I have said above (in this post and in the post above which told Evensong about my contemplative experiences) applies to it. It will get you somewhere, but ultimately - if pushed as a religious technique - it will become problematic. If you follow it too far, it will undermine your Christian faith.
There is however a good match to this in the famous Cloud of Unknowing, i.e., you can find basically a "Christian version" described in this classic text which is compatible with the Christian relationship to God. The key difference is the dual nature of that approach, where you trample the world under into a "cloud of forgetting" while at the same time as stretching up to the Divine "Cloud of Unknowing". The former is basically shikantaza, the latter is not, and it does make a difference. Basically, instead of just defocusing, you also refocus on God, and consequently you do not just "let go" of your thoughts but rather "throw them up". In practice this is achieved by keeping an appropriate word or very short expression in mind (e.g., "love") so that as you dissolve it becomes the stepping stone up to God. See chapters 5, 6, and 7 in particular.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
IngoB: That's more or less shikantaza, Soto Zen style "just sitting" meditation, which is what I used to do rather intensely. So what I have said above (in this post and in the post above which told Evensong about my contemplative experiences) applies to it. It will get you somewhere, but ultimately - if pushed as a religious technique - it will become problematic.
Yes, I don't recall the Japanese term my instructor used at the time, but I remember her translating it as "just sitting", so I guess it must have been shikantaza or Soto Zen. Thank you for the warning. In a previous post I stated that my instructor gave a similar warning, so I don't think we're in disagreement here. I found your remarks about "throwing (your thoughts) up" interesting.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
IngoB, on the one hand you say your sitting Zen meditation brought you to Christianity:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Anyway, in deep shikantaza (Soto Zen "just sitting" meditation) I found within me not anātman (not-self), but ātman (self). While much about me "dissolved", a "spark" remained. This "spark" to me appeared not as a final delusion to destroy, but as a true (and beautiful) thing. Furthermore, I was becoming aware of a presence.
On the other hand you warn Christians against it:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
It will get you somewhere, but ultimately - if pushed as a religious technique - it will become problematic. If you follow it too far, it will undermine your Christian faith.
How can those both be true? And can you say more about how sitting Zen meditation becomes problematic and undermining for Christians?
[ 12. September 2014, 15:59: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
How can those both be true?
Rather than being in contradiction, one was basically explaining the other...
An analogy: Let's say you lost something very valuable in your house, say a big diamond. Let's say the diamond is a hundred times more valuable than all the contents of your house, and indeed the house itself, combined. But you can't find it, it's lost among all the stuff. One way of dealing with this is to throw things out. Take every item in the house, break it apart to diamond size (so that the diamond cannot hide inside it) - and if the diamond is not there, throw it onto a rubbish pile outside. Well, maybe even when you clear the entire house of everything, you still haven't found the diamond. What to do? Well, you know that the diamond was lost in the house. So it must have slipped through some cracks into the walls or something. But no worries, you can also take the house itself apart. Just systematically deconstruct it into pieces that cannot hide the diamond, and throw all the parts of the roof, walls, etc. onto the same rubbish pile as you tear down the house. That's what this contemplation does. It strips away things, slowly but systematically.
Now comes the issue though. Say you have thrown our most of the stuff, and torn down most of the house. And you finally have found the diamond under one of the floorboards. What do you do? Well, the way I've set up the story, that seems clear enough. You grab the diamond, scream "hooray" and you are done.
But now assume that you have delegated this tedious work to a robot. And you forgot to put something into the robot that would detect the diamond, you just programmed it to break everything apart to the size of that diamond, and then throw it out onto the rubbish bin. Upon finding the diamond, what would that robot do? Well, obviously it would see that this item is small enough and just throw it onto the rubbish pile like everything else, and continue with stripping down all that is still left.
The basic problem here is that the robot does not consider the diamond as anything special, so it will just continue stripping things apart until nothing is left. And that's just what Zen (the religion) wants to do. It thinks that you (the person) also ultimately are nothing. One could now have a learned discussion about what this "nothing" in Buddhism really is, it is probably closer to what physicists would consider a "vacuum state" than a philosophical "really nothing". But that doesn't matter for us here, you (the person) are definitely not the proper stopping point as far as Zen is concerned. The "spark" that I felt is just one more thing that needs to be stripped away and thrown out. The same is true for the feeling of a presence (presumably God) that I had. This is not a diamond. There is no diamond. There is nothing like a diamond. The true reality is what you get when you have done the stripping down all the way. The true reality is nothing. Perhaps that nothing is not quite "absolutely empty" in a philosophical sense, and practically speaking Zen practitioners do not kill themselves at the end of this. But the idea is that you strip all away mentally until what is left is a kind of "pure reflection of being" without any "self" or "Other" or whatnot interfering.
So from a Zen perspective, I simply chickened out. I was doing so well, but then I got attached to these illusions of "self" and "Other" and did not let the method work on those. I stopped the method. I decided that I had found diamonds among the stuff, and halted the stripping progress there. I turned the method into something that finds stuff, when it really was a method to just remove stuff. And I did so by adding something, a recognition of something, and Zen has that quite right, that is a kind of attachment. So as far as the Buddha is concerned, it will lead to suffering. And the Buddha found the path to end all suffering. By removing all attachment, destroying all illusion. Or so he thought.
I obviously think he is wrong. But, this method is designed to do what the Buddha wants to do. And if you use it naively, if you do not realise as a Christian that it will strip right through your concepts of soul and God like through anything else, then you might damage your faith. Because that's what this method really is supposed to do. Does all this make some sense now?
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
And can you say more about how sitting Zen meditation becomes problematic and undermining for Christians?
Simply put, the method is acid. Acid is great if you want to burn off encrusted dirt that no amount of scrubbing seems to remove. But if there is something under all that dirt that you want to see cleaned, then you have to stop pouring the acid at some point (even if there is dirt left on it!). If there is nothing, if it is all just dirt, then you can just keep on pouring until everything is gone.
As I keep saying, contemplative methods are not neutral. They operate in a religious framework. You can impose a different framework onto yourself by adopting its associated methods. If you want to do something like this as a Christian, you have to change the method. At a minimum, you must do what I intuitively did. Stop it at some point.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
Thank you for the explanation, IngoB. That makes sense.
This has all reminded me: once at my church we had a workshop about meditation presented by a Zen Buddhist. At the end of it I asked if Zen meditation was really the same as Christian meditation, since as religions the religions have different ends in mind. Or at least, I tried to ask this, but nobody even understood the question, so I didn't even get an attempt at an answer. I filed it away under "wierd ways I often don't fit into groups at my church" and forgot about it. Until now. Looks like it was a sensible question after all.
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
I can't see how this relates to meditation, because how I meditate today does not affect my salvation, that was all done by someone else 2000 years ago.
I take it then that you believe that you simply are saved, rather than that you have to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling (Phil 2:12).
Becoming saved is entering into what God has done, you can no more get to heaven by good works than you can meditate your way to heaven. The Protestant position of Salvation by faith alone, and the Catholic position of Salvation by faith and works (I don't really want to debate that now, not here) are both a million miles away from the idea that you can work your way into heaven.
I see doing good works, and wanting to be close to God, as something that grows out of salvation, not something that leads to it. Meditation helps you to grow in your faith, the desire to grow, and the desire to meditate comes from salvation.
quote:
IngoB
Then of course not only meditation, but indeed each and every aspect of spiritual life - prayer, going to Church, charitable deeds, ... - does not relate to salvation, because your salvation is not affected by it.
They relate to salvation because they spring from it, and they can deepen the experience of salvation too. I know I am working out my own salvation. I am not holding a dichotomy (false or otherwise) that says relationship with God vs. attaining salvation, rather relationship with God = deepening salvation. But I believe the goal is the former.
But back to the subject in hand.
I use techniques that have come from Eastern sources in order to relax to in order to meditate, being aware of my breathing is one of them, but I do not consider that or the sitting and stillness to be the meditation, but the preparation to meditate. Then when still I focus my mind on God, and start to meditate on the Bible or on an aspect of God. This is where the focus changes from inwards to outwards.
But that's it for now, I'm flying out on holiday tomorrow, back in two weeks.
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Last ever sig ...
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
Thank you for the explanation, IngoB. That makes sense.
This has all reminded me: once at my church we had a workshop about meditation presented by a Zen Buddhist. At the end of it I asked if Zen meditation was really the same as Christian meditation, since as religions the religions have different ends in mind. Or at least, I tried to ask this, but nobody even understood the question, so I didn't even get an attempt at an answer. I filed it away under "wierd ways I often don't fit into groups at my church" and forgot about it. Until now. Looks like it was a sensible question after all.
I've raised a similar question in the same context and it makes people uncomfortable. I think it's because they get carried away with how the practise makes them feel without thinking about the end result. My question was dismissed as "over-thinking" it but in fact I think the reverse was true - they had under-thought it.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
You know, the dire warnings regarding meditation strike me as odd.
Several reasons, but the first is that prayer is more dangerous. Meditation such as IngoB describes is not something which happens overnight and takes a fair bit of dedication.* A Christian who is putting in that much devotion will likely not be doing so in a vacuum.
Christian prayer, however, is often blindly trusted. Go to church (maybe) read the Bible (randomly) and pray. God will talk to you. There, all sorted.
But what voice are you hearing?
Prayer is treated benignly and it shouldn't be.
No, not a religious battle do I foment, just turning on the light, taking the torch from under your chin and asking you to stop the spooky voice.
*Honestly, most Buddhists don't go this deep.
[ 13. September 2014, 15:23: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
I think there is some truth on both sides of the "concern about meditation" issue; on the one hand, the aims of Buddhist belief are not the same as those of Christian belief; but on the other hand, if (as I believe) Christianity rather than Buddhism is true, and God made us and the way our minds work, then using all kinds of meditative techniques may be helpful. It may depend largely on the person whether a given technique is helpful or not. To refer to the analogy above, no acid can dissolve God.
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
I don't know if I agree with that, ChastMastr. The result of my attempts to pray during a time of deep distress is that I'm now convinced that God doesn't give a shit about me, if he even exists. Or if he does give a shit, it turns out that I understand nothing whatever about Christianity from all my years being connected to Christianity, understand nothing about prayer, and have a completely wrong understanding about God. Which I suppose may all be true, but replacing "meditation" in your post with "prayer" would say God is behind all these methods, including prayer, and will use them for good. But all I see is shit coming out of my attempts at prayer.
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
Rereading more closely, I overlooked where you said "It may depend largely on the person whether a given technique is helpful or not."
So I suppose I might be someone for whom prayer is completely unhelpful. That's an interesting thing to think. It's liberating: it would give me freedom to accept my faith life as it is, in the face of and in contradiction to MASSIVE amounts of Christian rhetoric espousing that one should pray, one should have a relationship with God, one should talk to God, one should listen to God, and the way to do all that is through prayer, blah blah blah.
Prayer seems to be very helpful to other people, and especially on this board I don't want to be dissuading anyone else from prayer. But for me, it would be quite freeing to stop striving for prayer, and instead find other, helpful (instead of destructive) ways to nourish my faith.
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
So I suppose I might be someone for whom prayer is completely unhelpful. That's an interesting thing to think. It's liberating: it would give me freedom to accept my faith life as it is, in the face of and in contradiction to MASSIVE amounts of Christian rhetoric espousing that one should pray, one should have a relationship with God, one should talk to God, one should listen to God, and the way to do all that is through prayer, blah blah blah.
But the Christian rhetoric doesn't necessarily say prayer will be answered as you wish it to be answered (bar some parts of Matthew). God's ways are not necessarily our ways etc.
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
Prayer seems to be very helpful to other people, and especially on this board I don't want to be dissuading anyone else from prayer. But for me, it would be quite freeing to stop striving for prayer, and instead find other, helpful (instead of destructive) ways to nourish my faith.
If I were you, I'd stop striving in the prayer. Chuck it in. There are many, many ways to pray. Find your way. Find the nourishing way for you.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
The Protestant position of Salvation by faith alone, and the Catholic position of Salvation by faith and works (I don't really want to debate that now, not here) are both a million miles away from the idea that you can work your way into heaven.
Jesus instruct his disciples all the time along the lines of "think/do/say X in order to go to heaven". The question is rather what enables one to work one's way toward heaven: natural ability or God's grace.
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
Meditation helps you to grow in your faith, the desire to grow, and the desire to meditate comes from salvation.
If I substitute "salvation" with "grace", then the things you say tend to make some sense to me. Otherwise, not so much...
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
I am not holding a dichotomy (false or otherwise) that says relationship with God vs. attaining salvation, rather relationship with God = deepening salvation. But I believe the goal is the former.
And in your second sentence you have once more invoked the false dichotomy that you denied in the first sentence. Salvation of course also cannot "deepen". Your theological language is all messed up somehow...
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
I use techniques that have come from Eastern sources in order to relax to in order to meditate, being aware of my breathing is one of them, but I do not consider that or the sitting and stillness to be the meditation, but the preparation to meditate. Then when still I focus my mind on God, and start to meditate on the Bible or on an aspect of God. This is where the focus changes from inwards to outwards.
OK, so you are using "meditation" in a Christian rather than Eastern sense. I would say that this kind of "reverse Lectio Divina" is suboptimal as far as contemplation goes. Of course, contemplation is not the be all and end all of Christian prayer. So this is not intended as judgement (horses for courses), merely as a factual distinction.
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Several reasons, but the first is that prayer is more dangerous. Meditation such as IngoB describes is not something which happens overnight and takes a fair bit of dedication.* A Christian who is putting in that much devotion will likely not be doing so in a vacuum.
*Honestly, most Buddhists don't go this deep.
Buddhist in the West have - somewhat absurdly - adopted the Buddhist practices of monks and nuns in the East, and are pretty much ignoring the practices of the Buddhist laity in the East. Basically, Western Buddhists are amateur religious. And in my experiences, most people who claim to be Buddhist rather than doing meditation for various health benefits, tend to be practicing quite a lot. Often in a rather eclectic fashion, but in terms of total time, effort and often enough money dedicated, this tends to be rather impressive. Basically, most Western Buddhists are still converts and consequently you get that convert enthusiasm (if often in strange New Age form).
So the comparison is invalid. You would have to compare Western Buddhist with say a bunch of Opus Dei lay Catholics, or more regular Western Christians with lay Buddhists in the East. It is probably true that other forms of prayer can be strongly habituating and can have great psychological impact as well. But Western Buddhists tend to be enthusiastic and intense in their amateurish pursuit of Eastern "professional" religious practice, in a way that most Western Christians simply are not about their Christian practice.
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Christian prayer, however, is often blindly trusted. Go to church (maybe) read the Bible (randomly) and pray. God will talk to you. There, all sorted. But what voice are you hearing? Prayer is treated benignly and it shouldn't be.
First, "DIY Christianity" at home with the bible is more a modern Protestant invention than Christian tradition. Second, the framework of church and bible in fact does restrain just how far off the rails personal prayer might go. Third, I think that contemplative methods are generally more psychologically impactful than "talking to God" type of prayers. In fact, I tend to think that "talking prayer" actually leads to contemplation when and if it becomes impactful - but perhaps that's just my prejudices speaking.
All that said, I think you do have a point. "Normal" prayer is certainly not simply "psychologically neutral".
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Jesus instruct his disciples all the time along the lines of "think/do/say X in order to go to heaven".
That would make Christianity inherently selfish.
Such is not the case. The cross says the opposite.
But that is a more purg question.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
I am not holding a dichotomy (false or otherwise) that says relationship with God vs. attaining salvation, rather relationship with God = deepening salvation. But I believe the goal is the former.
And in your second sentence you have once more invoked the false dichotomy that you denied in the first sentence. Salvation of course also cannot "deepen". Your theological language is all messed up somehow...
Or perhaps he is simply using it differently than you do. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) I can see ways in which our salvation can "deepen," such as growing in grace. Is that what you mean, balaam?
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Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
I think talking about contemplative experience is like talking about your sex life. It is really difficult to hit the right tone with that, when talking to others, and the internet is generally not where you would want to do it.
Oh, I so relate to this and I'd even broaden it out to talking about spiritual experience that is wider than the contemplative. I find it a daily challenge to be willing to answer people's questions in a way that doesn't cheapen something which I hold as very precious yet still inspires them to pursue their own spiritual walk.
I also think culture influences how we do/ don't talk about it and there's a huge range from almost secrecy (which means no-one else can learn from us) through to ghastly "over-sharing" as one of my daughters describes it.
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"It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
Posts: 693 | From: UK/ Kenya | Registered: Apr 2013
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
I am not holding a dichotomy (false or otherwise) that says relationship with God vs. attaining salvation, rather relationship with God = deepening salvation. But I believe the goal is the former.
And in your second sentence you have once more invoked the false dichotomy that you denied in the first sentence. Salvation of course also cannot "deepen". Your theological language is all messed up somehow...
Or perhaps he is simply using it differently than you do. I can see ways in which our salvation can "deepen," such as growing in grace. Is that what you mean, balaam?
More or less, yes.
Of course IngoB is right in that Salvation cannot deepen. But our experience of it and understanding of it can deepen. Protestantism's 500 year history may not be as long as other traditions and evangelicalism even shorter, but it is where I am coming from
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
If salvation is wholeness then * can't see why it can't deepen. Prayer, meditation etc seems to me to be about centring on God and the important things and who you are so you can live more abundantly now.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
* was writing a reply on the salvation issue, and then realised that * 'm turning this into a Purgatorial discussion. So let's all turn this back from details of doctrine and theological jargon, and return to discussing meditation, please.
Thanks,
IngoB
Kempistry Host
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
The inwards and outward aspects of meditation can be experienced in praying a labyrinth, where we meditate on God's relationship with us when going towards the centre and to ours and God's relationship with the world on the way our way out.
In my experience it is never an equal split like this. Having an introverted personality Ι am naturally drawn towards the inwards aspects of meditation and find the outward side of things to be hard work at times. But it is worth it to try things you are not comfrotable with.
{edited because H&A constraints made the post look like nonsense. Now you should be able to see the nonsense Ι intended.
[ 19. September 2014, 11:16: Message edited by: balaam ]
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
If you can dance and skip prayerfully I don't see the problem.
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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