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Source: (consider it) Thread: God, you bastard
balaam

Making an ass of myself
# 4543

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When things go wrong should we be screaming and shouting at God? Is expressing our anger, pain and frustration to god without restraint something to be encouraged or avoided. Is it OK to rant at God?

And is it prayer?

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Last ever sig ...

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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hedgehog

Ship's Shortstop
# 14125

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Do you mean something like "You duped me and I let myself be duped!" or (even more venerable) "My God, my God! Why have you forsaken me?" There is historical precedent for it!

But your question requires an analysis of what is meant by "prayer." If prayer is just "talking with God" then even such rants can be called "prayer"--but in my mind, prayer is something more than just chatting with the All Mighty. It is asking for the Lord to take (or not take) some action: give us this day our daily bread; lead us not into temptation; etc.

Under this latter definition of prayer, then ranting at God (without asking for something in particular) is not, in itself, prayer. In fact, the two Biblical "rants" that I referenced above do not ask for anything (at least, in the bits I quoted), so neither would constitute a prayer. Obviously, though, a rant could contain a prayer.

On the one hand, the emotion and vigor behind the rant-prayer can be seen as an act of faith (you have to believe in the existence of somebody an awful lot to yell at him angrily). However, if that much emotion is involved, I would personally wonder if the prayer has been well considered as being appropriate. Frequent requests for the Lord to "damn it" when the thing in question does not need (or is incapable of) being damned is a pointless and empty prayer. Such prayers should be avoided, IMHO.

So ranting at God is not, in my view, necessarily bad nor necessarily good. It depends on context.

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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'

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LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

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David ranted at God.

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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sharkshooter

Not your average shark
# 1589

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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
David ranted at God.

But, didn't he always turn it into praise?

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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]

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Miffy

Ship's elephant
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quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
David ranted at God.

But, didn't he always turn it into praise?
Hmm...yes he did but to get to that place he had to go through the raving ranting and shouting. As do we: remember the "Calling God to Hell" thread? What about Christ himself? "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?" If that's not prayer, I don't know what is!

Speaking personally, if someone I was listening to repeatedly found themselves unable to at least begin to express their anger and frustration in prayer, I'd be slightly concerned.

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"I don't feel like smiling." "You're English dear; fake it!" (Colin Firth "Easy Virtue")
Growing Greenpatches

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LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
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quote:
sharkshooter: But, didn't he always turn it into praise?
I usually stop reading before I get to that part. The Psalms are much better that way [Biased]

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Miffy

Ship's elephant
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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
sharkshooter: But, didn't he always turn it into praise?
I usually stop reading before I get to that part. The Psalms are much better that way [Biased]
Hear, hear!

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"I don't feel like smiling." "You're English dear; fake it!" (Colin Firth "Easy Virtue")
Growing Greenpatches

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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992

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quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
David ranted at God.

But, didn't he always turn it into praise?
Not necessarily "David" - let's just say "a Psalmist" - but there is one notable exception. Psalm 88

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"What is broken, repair with gold."

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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Done this and worse. Told the bastard to kill me now. Such prayers and maybe all prayers often go into silence unfortunately, and it takes quite a spell to reconcile the (non)answers. Quite a reasonable approach in my view.

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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153

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quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
When things go wrong should we be screaming and shouting at God? Is expressing our anger, pain and frustration to god without restraint something to be encouraged or avoided.

No, we shouldn't, and no, it should not be encouraged. God deserves our love and respect.

BUT he also deserves our honesty. If pain and anger are all you are feeling, then you have nothing else to bring before God, so bring that. There's no point disguising that fact that your soul in distress by using pious and insincere observances. It's not as if you're going to succeed in fooling God that lying to him about what you think and feel counts as worship, though you might possibly succeed in fooling yourself.

quote:
Is it OK to rant at God?
No. But better to rant at him than lie to him, simmer with unspoken resentment at him, or ignore him.

If you can speak honestly to God without ranting, then do that. If you can't, then he can take it. Just remember to shut up after a bit and try to listen.

quote:
And is it prayer?
Certainly.

[ 04. September 2014, 23:34: Message edited by: Eliab ]

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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"

Richard Dawkins

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basso

Ship’s Crypt Keeper
# 4228

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Annie Lamott says in her book on prayer,

"If you say to God, 'I am exhausted and depressed beyond words, and I don't like You at all right now, and I recoil from most people who believe in You,' that might be the most honest thing you've ever said."

I think, with Lamott, that God wants that honesty. Begs for it. Is waiting for us to figure out the need.

Fortunately, God's a patient Deity.

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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And if that is indeed how you feel, how is tacking an ass kissing modifier on it going to help anyway? God knows where you are at.

I agree living in that place too long is unhealthy-- for basic mental health reasons, it behooves someone to develop as much gratitude as they can muster, whether or not you aim it at God. But God is not going to be fooled by softsoap. And taking your anger to him, imo, is a true sign of trust.

[ 05. September 2014, 00:16: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
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I've definitely ranted at God at occasions.

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Hedgehog

Ship's Shortstop
# 14125

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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I've definitely ranted at God at occasions.

But is it "prayer"? As I discussed above, I am not sure a rant-as-rant qualifies. Now Miffy referenced the same line I did, but seems to define "prayer" differently than I did:

quote:
What about Christ himself? "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?" If that's not prayer, I don't know what is!


Is any "talking with God" prayer? I define it somewhat more restrictively. Am I being too restrictive?

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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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I think if you are mindfully inviting God to listen, any talking- to- God counts as prayer. The odd disgruntled thought is merely that and nothing more.

(MINDFULLY, FFS.)

[ 05. September 2014, 01:30: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
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quote:
Hedgehog: But is it "prayer"? As I discussed above, I am not sure a rant-as-rant qualifies.
I'm afraid that I don't agree with your definition.

To me, prayer is talking, communicating with God. Not trivially as I sometimes do with my mates at the pub, but apart from that pretty much anything goes.

To me, prayer isn't restricted to asking Him to do things. Within prayer, I also thank Him for stuff for example. I put things that are happening in my life before Him, without asking for some kind of action. And prayer can also be purely meditative.

A rant fits within that for me. It hasn't happened to me often, only a couple of times. But a rant isn't frivolous chatter, it's anything but. Like others have said, it's very honest and it's very serious.

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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I find I can only think that those who haven't ranted, haven't had the experiences that make it inescapable. Saying it is not okay is akin to telling depressed people to simply cheer up IMHO. Is it sinful to suffer and to rail against it and an inactive omnipotent? Unless my kind of people go to hell.

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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

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Hedgehog

Ship's Shortstop
# 14125

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That is a fair point, LeRoc & Kelly. Giving thanks and praise to God is traditionally viewed as a form of prayer (which would include songs to God can be a form of prayer). I would agree that a rant expressing honest frustration is in the same ballpark.

no prophet, you are in good company here! So far (by my reading at least) nobody has taken the position that ranting at God is not okay.

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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'

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EloiseA
Shipmate
# 18029

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The great precedent for prayers of rage, outrage and despair directed towards God etc is the Psalms, as others here have noted, and praying them through the Daily Office means saying and hearing them even when I am not angry or despondent myself, as part of daily practice, understanding that this too is how others have engaged with God in times of crisis and dread.

And the Psalms allow us to voice the feeling too that God may be oppressing us, that God is angry with us. Psalm 38, especially:

O Lord, do not continue to rebuke me in your anger! Do not continue to punish me in your raging fury!

2 For your arrows pierce me, and your hand presses me down.

Then too there is an observable process in such Psalms of the praying believer working through these fears and rages in order to be able to affirm love and trust in God again. This has helped me so many times.

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“You shall know the truth and the truth shall make you odd.” Flannery O'Connnor

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Oscar the Grouch

Adopted Cascadian
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I'm inclined to say that if you haven't ranted at God then you've never really prayed. (OK, slight hyperbole there)

At its heart, prayer is being open to and with God. And I think we are most open when we have let down the barriers of respectability, which tell us how we ought to speak to God.

Ranting at God means we being really honest. It's much better to say "How could you let this shitty thing happen?" than "God, you're so wonderful, so I'm sure you have a reason for all this."

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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu

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mark_in_manchester

not waving, but...
# 15978

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quote:
If you can speak honestly to God without ranting, then do that. If you can't, then he can take it. Just remember to shut up after a bit and try to listen.
I think I agree, though I'm not entirely sure what you mean - sit in silence and see what comes to mind? When I'm angry (most days), what comes to mind is often more fury, catastrophising, violent fantasy. It feels like sin (remove self-control and taken to its logical conclusion and worked out in practice - 'fully grown' - relationships and perhaps even people would end up dead). I need to be delivered from it (that is, there appears to be no way to escape under my own steam).

'Book prayers' or a set reading can sometimes get me an escape, albeit temporary - my own ego is put to one side as I concentrate on someone else's words. Can that form part of the 'listen' - listen to the words of someone else, in written prayer or bible verses, and see what happens in your heart?

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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:

'Book prayers' or a set reading can sometimes get me an escape, albeit temporary - my own ego is put to one side as I concentrate on someone else's words. Can that form part of the 'listen' - listen to the words of someone else, in written prayer or bible verses, and see what happens in your heart?

Sounds fair enough to me.

--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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If it's working for you, do it.

I tend to go to my private area (a corner on the floor last year, now I need to find a better place) and just say grouchily, "God, I'm here." And when the revenge fantasies arise in my mind, I mentally point at them and say "See, Lord? would you deal with that, please?" and nothing else. Sort of like (evil) bird watching. Not a lot of talk, just being there. If God wants conversation on those days, he can start it.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
'Book prayers' or a set reading can sometimes get me an escape, albeit temporary - my own ego is put to one side as I concentrate on someone else's words. Can that form part of the 'listen' - listen to the words of someone else, in written prayer or bible verses, and see what happens in your heart?

Liturgy can work for me this way as well.

I was actually overnight in Manchester in April this year and had a bit of a tough morning in the midst of our trip (not really a bastard time, but rather out of sorts) and decided to walk toward the cathedral in the rain (which matched my mood), and happened on a spoken Eucharist which was attended by perhaps 10 or 12 people and left with much better feelings, I think, because I was drawn out of myself.

--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

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mark_in_manchester

not waving, but...
# 15978

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I'm glad you had a good experience in manc, np. I've never attended a service at the cathedral - it's an odd building isn't it. There are larger parish churches, which is what I think ours was before our city became such in an industrial population explosion 200ish years ago.

LC - my reaction on reading your post makes me think that I must think (if you see what I mean) that God's response to me saying 'see, can you deal with that please?' would be 'you impudent, lazy little f*cker. That's your job, and you better do a good job if you expect to have any chance of any time with me.'

This, of course, is the voice of my father, who may well be starring in the vengeance fantasy in question. Unless he (I should really say 'it', 'it' being the sin that he expressed but which often comes out of all sorts of people, me included) appears in my mind in the person of my wife, or kids, or...

Does God 'deal' with it, in you? Is that what a loving (heavenly) father is like? When (if) He deals with it - does it go for a while, and how do you feel about approaching Him when it returns? What kind of analogy with earthly parenting comes to mind, and why do you feel he doesn't sigh 'for f*ck sake, not this AGAIN' - like I'd think when one of my girls goes 'X was *mean* to me, daddy' in that whiny way kids have sometimes...

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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
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See, I was reading her as asking God to deal with her-- deal with the revenge thoughts as they went by. Just seems more in character with LC.

And how would that be in any way different from praying "Create in me a clean heart"?

[ 05. September 2014, 20:19: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
I'm glad you had a good experience in manc, np. I've never attended a service at the cathedral - it's an odd building isn't it. There are larger parish churches, which is what I think ours was before our city became such in an industrial population explosion 200ish years ago.

LC - my reaction on reading your post makes me think that I must think (if you see what I mean) that God's response to me saying 'see, can you deal with that please?' would be 'you impudent, lazy little f*cker. That's your job, and you better do a good job if you expect to have any chance of any time with me.'

This, of course, is the voice of my father, who may well be starring in the vengeance fantasy in question. Unless he (I should really say 'it', 'it' being the sin that he expressed but which often comes out of all sorts of people, me included) appears in my mind in the person of my wife, or kids, or...

Does God 'deal' with it, in you? Is that what a loving (heavenly) father is like? When (if) He deals with it - does it go for a while, and how do you feel about approaching Him when it returns? What kind of analogy with earthly parenting comes to mind, and why do you feel he doesn't sigh 'for f*ck sake, not this AGAIN' - like I'd think when one of my girls goes 'X was *mean* to me, daddy' in that whiny way kids have sometimes...

Well, first of all, when I say "See that Lord? Would you mind dealing with it?" I'm not expecting an immediate sensation of him having taken it away--it's lovely when he DOES do that kind of instant miracle, but it's more likely that God's response will take time and the revenge fantasy/whatever will keep popping up again for a while, at which point I mentally point at it and say, "See, Lord? That's the one I mean" and turn my attention elsewhere. Even if I have to go through the cycle a zillion times.

What this does for me is a) remind me that I can't do it myself--the "lazy little fucker" thing is all bullshit, we can no more deal with this shit on our own than your girls could lift a truck with their own two hands. So that imagined blaming voice (your dad's?) is fucking bullshitting you. God would never say that shit to you, he knows damn well what our capacities are, and making our thoughts flow right isn't on the list. The only sensible thing to do is ask him to deal with it (and in the case of OCD or something, to see a doctor). Generally, any time you hear a grouchy, cranky, shut-up-you-lazy-little-fucker voice going on, you can be sure that's not God. As the Bible says, "He knows our frame, he knows we are but dust"--and there's not so much you can expect dust to do on its own, is there?
God handles whiny very well, much better than most tired earthly parents. I occasionally get a sense of him rolling his eyes, but no more than that. Because whiny as we may be, at least we've come to the right person for help, instead of brooding about it or trying to handle it on our own when it's manifestly too heavy for us.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I get the sense you think you SHOULD be capable of changing your thoughts, overcoming revenge fantasies etc. Maybe some supersaints can do this (though I doubt it), but really, for the average person this is akin to handing them an extremely complicated computer running eleventy-dozen programs at once, all of which are acting buggy, and saying, "Here, go ahead, fix it." I mean, what? It's not that easy. God knows that perfectly well. So does the devil, which is why he delights in convincing us that it IS our job (not God's) to clean up our mental messes, secure in the knowledge that we'll drive ourselves nuts trying to do something way above our capabilities.

It isn't whiny to call a software expert, it's sensible. It isn't whiny to call God in to deal with complicated issues of sin involving thoughts and emotions, it's sensible. We don't know what the hell we're doing most of the time. He does.

So drop it in his Inbox, leave a callback number, and go bowling. Or whatever floats your boat.
[Big Grin]

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493

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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Hedgehog: But is it "prayer"? As I discussed above, I am not sure a rant-as-rant qualifies.
I'm afraid that I don't agree with your definition.

To me, prayer is talking, communicating with God. Not trivially as I sometimes do with my mates at the pub, but apart from that pretty much anything goes.

To me, prayer isn't restricted to asking Him to do things. Within prayer, I also thank Him for stuff for example. I put things that are happening in my life before Him, without asking for some kind of action. And prayer can also be purely meditative.

A rant fits within that for me. It hasn't happened to me often, only a couple of times. But a rant isn't frivolous chatter, it's anything but. Like others have said, it's very honest and it's very serious.

I tend to a very broad definition of prayer and regard it as any form of communication with God, verbal and non-verbal. So worship is a form of prayer, but so is doing His will (when one can discern it [Biased] ). I am not sure how orthodox this position is but it works for me.

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Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
mark_in_manchester

not waving, but...
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Thanks Kelly, and LC. I'll reply properly later - I'm about to go 'bowling' - well, dropping into our science museum to breathe in some oily steam, and then to a bookshop to buy a map. Your post LC was really helpful, and I'm starting to practice that the journey of a zillion cycles starts with a single whine.

Hosts - if I've been getting too All-Saintsy for this spot, please let me know.

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balaam

Making an ass of myself
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Just to prove I haven't started a thread then gone on holiday, I'm back after considering what has been said above.
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
quote:
Is it OK to rant at God?
No. But better to rant at him than lie to him, simmer with unspoken resentment at him, or ignore him.
Contrary to what most of what has been said, I'd sy it is not particularly healthy to be in position where you rant at God, at least not if you stay there, but, as has bee said, if pain is all you have it is better to come to God with that than not at all.

My story is a cycling accident 8 and a half years ago, which has left me walking with a stick, in constant pain and nowhere near as athletic as I was. Blaming God was, and letting him know this, was a stage I went through, as well as periods of not being able to pray.

But went through is the important part. There has to be the point where you stop blocking God out and allow him to speak. The ranting stage was all in the first five years.

But if I were still in that stage it would be unhealthy, it is a stage in my journey from injury, something to go through, not somewhere to live.

The ranting stage is good to come out of. Rant on if you must, I would not encourage it, but any talking to God is better than none.

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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Schroedinger's cat

Ship's cool cat
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Yes - I think expressing ourselves to God is prayer, and if that means ranting and raving, because that is how we feel, that is our prayer at that point.

I get quite pissed off when our church prayers for painful or unpleasant situations are "Dear God, please help us through this, and bring it to you glory", when what I want to say is "God, this is a fucking mess, stop arsing about." It is about honesty, and so often, our spiritual display is about showing how deep and spiritual we are.

Shit happens. If our spirituality - and our God - cannot cope with it, it is of no relevance to reality.

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mark_in_manchester

not waving, but...
# 15978

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I'm going to try to reply to LC in as non-tangential way I can - I do feel a bit too All-Saints-y here, but we're talking about prayer and anger, and that's where I'm stuck. Perhaps someone else will find it useful too.

quote:
Generally, any time you hear a grouchy, cranky, shut-up-you-lazy-little-fucker voice going on, you can be sure that's not God.
I need to hear that again, and again, and again.

I think my fury brews as I meditate on this stuff, and by the time I come to God, I'm consumed by it. Your suggestion to pray early is a very good one. And especially, to pray *about my anger*, NOT about 'that c*nt who has steamrollered my person yet again', or (if I may, Balaam) not (to start with) about my injury and pain (?). But first, about the anger. That's what's killing my spirit, and without getting that right, I can't pray at all about the other stuff which appears to be the occasion for it. I suspect in my case, if I am sometimes healed from my anger, the overwhelming sense of necessity to bloody-well pray about the circumstances which generate it will fall away considerably - (though in the case of physical pain, I am not at all sure that would follow).

quote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I get the sense you think you SHOULD be capable of changing your thoughts, overcoming revenge fantasies etc.
I've worked out (hey, get me [Hot and Hormonal] ) that they're sin, and I know they're punishing me. That verse about calling your brother a worthless fool and being consumed by the fires of hell keeps coming to mind, as well as the ones about what we do in mind, being as much sin as what we do in practice. And it's clear to me - this stuff is eating me alive. So I know I need to overcome it all - and my history means I am vulnerable to what you point out as the deception that I might be expected to take entire personal responsibility for dealing with it.

But if the story is just to confess - 'Lord, this burning anger is sin, and it's well and truly in me' then I can do so wholeheartedly. And if the next bit is to repent 'Lord, I really don't want to be defined, consumed by this - I want to be made new' then yes - I want that entirely. There, that sounded pretty orthodox, but I need pastoral help to get there, as we have identified.

I hope someone else gets something out of this.

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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)

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LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

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(I'm not sure if revenge fantasies are always necessarily a bad thing. I see them as a lightning conductor for my anger sometimes.)

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The Silent Acolyte

Shipmate
# 1158

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quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
David ranted at God.

But, didn't he always turn it into praise?
Not necessarily "David" - let's just say "a Psalmist" - but there is one notable exception. Psalm 88
Then there's the case when God apparently was too hung over to show up for work.
quote:
Psalm 78:66
So the Lord awaked as one out of sleep, * and like a giant refreshed with wine.

Thank you Mr. Bowdler. Refreshed with wine my ass. You got too drunk last night to be able get up this morning to do your effing job, God.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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Boy, this is an edifying thread. [Big Grin]

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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TSA, I like the next verse. Some translations say he smote his enemies "in their hinder parts."

He kicked their fuckin' ass, in other words!

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balaam

Making an ass of myself
# 4543

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quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
But first, about the anger. That's what's killing my spirit, and without getting that right, I can't pray at all about the other stuff which appears to be the occasion for it. I suspect in my case, if I am sometimes healed from my anger, the overwhelming sense of necessity to bloody-well pray about the circumstances which generate it will fall away considerably - (though in the case of physical pain, I am not at all sure that would follow).

mark, I do not know your situation, so I can't really give advice. I can only say what has happened to me and worked for me.

I had to forgive the person who hurt me. In the early stages when I could not forgive I had to ask God to do the forgiving for me. It took years. Getting to the wanting to forgive stage was the hardest part.

quote:
m_i_m
I've worked out (hey, get me [Hot and Hormonal] ) that they're sin, and I know they're punishing me. That verse about calling your brother a worthless fool and being consumed by the fires of hell keeps coming to mind, as well as the ones about what we do in mind, being as much sin as what we do in practice. And it's clear to me - this stuff is eating me alive.

My problem was that I blamed the other guy, I have a letter from the courts saying that it was his fault. But as I started to want to forgive the guy who hurt me I started to blame God. All the revengeful thoughts, all the hurt, pain, frustration and anger were transferred from the bastard that crippled me to the bastard in the sky. God really got a lot of of shouting done at him.

I'm not saying I was right to do this, and I am not saying you should do this, definitely not. But this is what happened to me, and I found something redemptive about God taking all the blame, anger, frustration and sin from me. YMMV.

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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
jacobsen

seeker
# 14998

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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

I tend to go to my private area (a corner on the floor last year, now I need to find a better place) and just say grouchily, "God, I'm here." And when the revenge fantasies arise in my mind, I mentally point at them and say "See, Lord? would you deal with that, please?" and nothing else. Sort of like (evil) bird watching. Not a lot of talk, just being there. If God wants conversation on those days, he can start it.

LC, that is brilliant
[Overused] I was getting all the revenge fantasies; now I know what to do with them.(In bulk they're quite exhausting.) It's another version of hanging one's anger on the cross, which I also tend to forget about, just when it would be a really good idea.

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But God, holding a candle, looks for all who wander, all who search. - Shifra Alon
Beauty fades, dumb is forever-Judge Judy
The man who made time, made plenty.

Posts: 8040 | From: Æbleskiver country | Registered: Aug 2009  |  IP: Logged
mark_in_manchester

not waving, but...
# 15978

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quote:
...I found something redemptive about God taking all the blame, anger, frustration and sin from me. YMMV.
Thanks for explaining your angry situation so clearly, Balaam. What you've described here (and in your OP for the thread) sounds like us joining with those crucifying Christ. Is that what people mean when (hi Jacobsen) they say 'hanging it on the cross'? Or when they say things like 'give it to God; He can take it'?

I think I may understand those ideas a little, but at the same time my own anger is less new, raw, needing the immediate outlet which such an outpouring towards God might afford; but rather it is old, and festering in the sense of breeding within itself - something nasty, puss-ridden and self-replicating in a wound which is not healing. When I concentrate on the anger, give it any attention, dry-run some old or imagined-new scenario to see how I might cope, or how I might have handled things more effectively (or have given that b*stard something to think about etc etc etc) - it breeds again with renewed vigour. I think this would happen even if I tried to convince myself I was doing something OK, and directing it to God.

So for me, cleaning the wound is a necessary step towards healing. I think this means I need God to get at me with His transcendent bleach and wire brush - and I need to ask for it in the second or two between each actual or remembered anger-stimulus arriving, and me losing myself to it.

--------------------
"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)

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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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You can ask for it ahead of time--he'll remember, even if you don't. He's not bound by time like we are.

If I can add a disgusting analogy (look away NOW)--I had a major abscess in an excruciating area when I was pregnant. We had to drain that sucker like, five times. In between it was making life a misery and doing harm to the pregnancy. The only thing to do was to keep draining the bugger until it finally gave up and went away.

Yeah, same situation with unhealed anger and hatred. God will keep draining it. It will likely puff back up again any number of times but sooner or later, it'll give up the ghost.

Hey, it took me thirty freaking YEARS to forgive D for what he did, and the month I finally felt it was over, ... T gave me a whole new twenty year assignment by her asshole actions.

Grrrrrrrrrrr. Endless forgiveness process, we hates it, my precioussssss.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716

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quote:
Originally posted by jacobsen:
LC, that is brilliant
[Overused] I was getting all the revenge fantasies; now I know what to do with them.(In bulk they're quite exhausting.)

I agree, and O Lord please help me remember to do this next time they come up.

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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
jacobsen

seeker
# 14998

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MiM - Hanging it on the cross IMO is turning it over to God because we can't deal with it on our own. As LC so eloquently put it further up the thread, we are not constructed to be able to deal with it on our own.

BTW, I'm most cheered to find myself in a group, or on a thread, where I'm not the only one!

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But God, holding a candle, looks for all who wander, all who search. - Shifra Alon
Beauty fades, dumb is forever-Judge Judy
The man who made time, made plenty.

Posts: 8040 | From: Æbleskiver country | Registered: Aug 2009  |  IP: Logged
pimple

Ship's Irruption
# 10635

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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
You can ask for it ahead of time--he'll remember, even if you don't. He's not bound by time like we are.

If I can add a disgusting analogy (look away NOW)--I had a major abscess in an excruciating area when I was pregnant. We had to drain that sucker like, five times. In between it was making life a misery and doing harm to the pregnancy. The only thing to do was to keep draining the bugger until it finally gave up and went away.

Yeah, same situation with unhealed anger and hatred. God will keep draining it. It will likely puff back up again any number of times but sooner or later, it'll give up the ghost.

Hey, it took me thirty freaking YEARS to forgive D for what he did, and the month I finally felt it was over, ... T gave me a whole new twenty year assignment by her asshole actions.

Grrrrrrrrrrr. Endless forgiveness process, we hates it, my precioussssss.

Do I get this right? The suppurating abscess was not what D did, but the long-lasting anger and resentment which got in the way of your forgiveness? And then, when you'd at last managed to deal with it, T provoked another twenty years of misery? I think Richard Holloway (author of "Forgiveness") would really relate to that - the necessity, in the first place, of acknowledging the wrong done, and eventually accepting the impossibility of such a wrong being forgotten or "undone".

You don't say whether either D or T acknowledged their own fault, but it's clear that forgiveness was there at the end of a long and very hard process.
[Overused] [Overused]

ETA though you did say "endless" . I hope not!

[ 23. September 2014, 10:42: Message edited by: pimple ]

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Posts: 8018 | From: Wonderland | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
MrsBeaky
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# 17663

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I've always thought that the psalmists and various other saints of old and now show us the validity of bringing the whole of ourselves to our relationship with God and also to our worship. Somewhere within that there is room for brokenness and anger which may well spill out in ranting depending on our circumstances and disposition.
I've learned a couple of helpful things along the way: ranting can off-load some of my pain but how much I do this in front of other people can require consideration as there are some places which are safer than others.
When I have no words of praise, no story of success then I am still acceptable in my worship as "a broken spirit is a sacrifice and a broken heart will not be despised".
Those words have held and reassured me in many a rant-worthy situation.

[ 23. September 2014, 12:53: Message edited by: MrsBeaky ]

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Fineline
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# 12143

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How I see it is that God already knows what's going on in my mind, whether or not I put it into words, and whether or not I address him with it. If I don't address him with it, that is a barrier between us - I am not giving him my whole self. I want to be close to God - I don't want barriers between us. It's not helpful in my faith - my faith can't grow if I'm holding back. So I try to address him with everything, and when I don't hold back, those are the times when I grow closer to God and grow in my faith.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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quote:
Originally posted by pimple:
Do I get this right? The suppurating abscess was not what D did, but the long-lasting anger and resentment which got in the way of your forgiveness? And then, when you'd at last managed to deal with it, T provoked another twenty years of misery? I think Richard Holloway (author of "Forgiveness") would really relate to that - the necessity, in the first place, of acknowledging the wrong done, and eventually accepting the impossibility of such a wrong being forgotten or "undone".

You don't say whether either D or T acknowledged their own fault, but it's clear that forgiveness was there at the end of a long and very hard process.

Yeah, you got it right. The abscess was a very vivid and concrete metaphor for the whole anger-and-resentment thing, and yes, T did manage to do something the very month of D's final forgiveness that made it clear I was going to get a second twenty-year run-through on how to forgive people. I'm currently about half way on that one. Grrrrrrr.

I certainly HOPE it won't be truly endless, but it sure feels like it. And no, neither of the persons in question ever acknowledged their own wrongdoing. If they had, forgiving would have been a piece of cake compared to this.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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Hoo boy. THAT'S a very real piece of the jigsaw. Someone has sinned against me just last night and I cannot cope. So I lay that not coping at the foot of the cross, not his feckless offence. Just now. I FELT that.

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Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Latchkey Kid
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# 12444

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My spiritual care training taught that it was OK to be angry, and that God was an appropriate person to be angry with .

I was invited to speak at a church service about spiritual care and provide a reading and I chose Job's rant from Job 19
quote:
Then Job answered:
‘....
know then that God has put me in the wrong,
and closed his net around me.
Even when I cry out, “Violence!” I am not answered;
I call aloud, but there is no justice.
He has walled up my way so that I cannot pass,
and he has set darkness upon my paths.
... <see the rest here> ...
Have pity on me, have pity on me, O you my friends,
for the hand of God has touched me!
Why do you, like God, pursue me,
never satisfied with my flesh?

I read it with feeling and immediately followed from Ch 42
quote:
the Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite: ‘My wrath is kindled against you and against your two friends; for you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has. Now therefore take seven bulls and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt-offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you, for I will accept his prayer not to deal with you according to your folly; for you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has done.’ So Eliphaz the Temanite and Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite went and did what the Lord had told them; and the Lord accepted Job’s prayer.
[IngoB: Added a link to limit quoting of copyrighted material.]

[ 13. October 2014, 16:16: Message edited by: IngoB ]

Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged
Cathscats
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# 17827

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Once, as a student, I was giving a children's talk in a nice rural American congregation. And I asked the kids "Is there anything you can't say to God?" Hoping for the answer "No."
One little boy out up his hand and replied "I don't think you should swear at him." Dilemma for student minister with little boy's nice, non-swearing parents sitting beside him!
I answered that one with "It is better not to swear, of course, but if you feel you really have to, it is better to swear at God who understands just how you feel." The parents did not have a go afterwards!

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"...damp hands and theological doubts - the two always seem to go together..." (O. Douglas, "The Setons")

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Amir Emrra
Apprentice
# 18100

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quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:

I hope someone else gets something out of this.

Yes Mark, I did, in a very "Oh f*ck, that's me" kind of way.

Thanks
[Votive]

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