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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Childlessness equals loneliness
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Tulfes
Shipmate
# 18000
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Posted
Pope Francis has said that people without children will enjoy a lonely and bitter old age. He has said that people should not substitute pets for children.
I have no children or pets. I am not sure when old-age begins but feel lonely when I am told that because I don't have a family I "should" be lonely.
I wish people, particularly religious leaders with authority, would stop telling others that they only have loneliness to look forward to. It can send people into unmitigated depression. I thought God is supposed to be the answer.
Posts: 175 | Registered: Feb 2014
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
Well, when I last looked, he had no pets or children either!
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
# 15351
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Posted
Well, if the good pope would like to have a word with his boss about my and Mrs Snags infertility I'd be much obliged.
I haven't seen/read whatever he's supposed to have said, but if as advertised, it's bollocks, of course. I know plenty of "old folk" with children who are lonely, and enough without who aren't. The degree to which one ends up lonely is going to depend on the degree to which you're the kind of person people want to be around, and the friendship networks you build up over your life.
[Dismal aphorism mode]
Anyway, we all die alone etc.
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Vain witterings :-: Vain pretentions :-: The Dog's Blog(locks)
Posts: 1399 | From: just north of That London | Registered: Dec 2009
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
He also made some comment about how nuns shouldn't be 'spinsters' but spiritual mothers, a while back, which didn't go down too well in monastic communities. I supsect he is trying to emphasise the importance of not being self-absorbed, but giving to others, but unfortunately he seems to see this very much in terms of parenthood, and is consequentially being quite disparaging of people who are unmarried, or don't have children (despite being single and childless himself!).
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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The5thMary
Shipmate
# 12953
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Posted
When I was much younger several co-workers (all of them women and mothers) asked me when I was going to have children. When I calmly informed them that I had no desire to have children, they laughed and told me I would change my mind. No, I haven't. I know that I would be a lousy parent. And my cats ARE like my children. Sure, they're not human, but I don't care. I really resent that idea that if someone doesn't have any desire to have children, they will have an unfulfilled, lonely, sad/pathetic existence. And I just love these moron Catholic priests/cardinals/popes who keep peddling this nonsense. For those of us who wish to have children, go for it. Have at it. I'm perfectly fulfilled with my wife and HER two children. I'm not their parent but I can be a friend to them.
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God gave me my face but She let me pick my nose.
Posts: 3451 | From: Tacoma, WA USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
The5thMary, other than being straight and having a dog, I could have written this! I was delighted when I reached the age where I was no longer hearing that I would "change my mind." I got it mostly from parishioners (my then-husband is a clergyman).
I love my dog, and she is a wonderful companion. If I'd had kids, they could be living hundreds of miles away (or could still be living with me and driving me crazy).
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
I am running into a loneliness and needing to find new friends as the people I'm used to hanging out with now have grandbabies and are focused on them.
No more going out together, they are babysitting. No more trips together, all their time is for their grandbabies.
Increasingly my new friends are other childless/childfree people. Good thing there are a lot of us, and the web makes finding each other easier than in decades past.
We do worry a bit about old old age, when usually it's your kids who make sure you get to the doctor and notice whether a mailed item demanding money is a bill or a scam and protest nursing home neglect. We're going to have to find ways for elders to do all that for each other.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
Got a feeling that the way elders sort their/ our (collective old age may be long overdue an overhaul.
Posts: 3126 | Registered: Apr 2004
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
I love my dog, and she is a wonderful companion. If I'd had kids, they could be living hundreds of miles away
I have kids, they live hundreds of miles away. I love to chat to them and visit them.
But they are not my companions, my dog is my companion. (Maybe I should say my husband is too, but I spend far more time with my dog than with my husband! ![[Smile]](smile.gif) )
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Err, so all RC clergy including himself will have a lonely and bitter old age? Really?
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I recommend that if you don't have kids, connect to relatives' children (siblings, cousins) and the children of friends. Do you enjoy the grandchildren of your friends or relatives? Could you connect via a mutual interest? Why not?
Like marriage and friendship, having relationships with others takes some energy and effort. I suspect for some that alleviation of prospective loneliness will be via such deliberate connectedness. I have a sister who has done this with my children and a brother who has not: neither have children. Like all relationships it is in your hands to develop or not.
I predict that it will be difficult, unfair and not happening for my children to feel obligated extend themselves to help my brother who they see for a few days at most every year or two and easy for them to extend themselves to my sister whom they talk to all the time via computer and visit. I encourage anyone in this position to take some initiative.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
How many of you have taken the trouble to find this story on the web? Pope Francis was talking to couples, not to the world in general.
The anti-materialist motive behind his homily was commendable, but the reports have stressed the "Children not pets" soundbite.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Liopleurodon
Mighty sea creature
# 4836
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Posted
I'm always amazed at people who try to talk people into having kids when they don't want them. We have an understanding in our culture that you shouldn't get a dog if you aren't a "dog person" and there's no shame in that because admitting that you're not sufficiently invested to take on such a large commitment of time and money is seen as a sign of maturity. Kids are a bigger commitment of time and money than dogs are and yet the attitude seems to be "oh it'll be fine - you'll get flooded with hormones and you'll bond with them and you'll love them." It's a hell of a risk to take.
For me, kids would be a bad life decision because sudden loud noises tend to cause pain and panic attacks because of my crazypants oversensitive hearing and small children are nothing if not unpredictably loud.
But probably the most obnoxious thing about this whole argument is the way in which people play into the fear of others that they will be lonely and isolated in their old age. Most of us are a bit worried that that will happen, and there are many elderly people who are indeed lonely. But simply managing to propagate your genes is not a guarantee that anyone is going to care about you when you're 90, unfortunately. I've worked with elderly people and there was a surprising lack of correlation (positive or negative) between how many descendents people had and how lonely they were. A better guarantee is cultivating friendships with people of all ages, working on social skills and being the kind of person that others want to spend time with. Even that doesn't necessarily mean you won't end up alone, because life can be a bitch sometimes.
I'm very firmly of the opinion, though, that treating any sentient being as a solution to a problem rather than a worthwhile individual in their own right is going to cause heartache for someone. Don't get a cat just because you have a mouse problem. Don't get a pony just because your child won't stop having tantrums and you don't know what to do. And above all, do NOT have children just because you're worried that you might not have anyone else to love you in 50 years time.
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Our God is an awesome God. Much better than that ridiculous God that Desert Bluffs has. - Welcome to Night Vale
Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
How many of you have taken the trouble to find this story on the web? Pope Francis was talking to couples, not to the world in general.
The anti-materialist motive behind his homily was commendable, but the reports have stressed the "Children not pets" soundbite.
Sioni, Sioni, Sioni. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif) Outrage is sooo much more fun.
Here is a link.
Still something to discuss in there, but not as incendiary.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Liopleurodon
Mighty sea creature
# 4836
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Posted
I don't see how that link makes it any better.
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Our God is an awesome God. Much better than that ridiculous God that Desert Bluffs has. - Welcome to Night Vale
Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
I did not say better. But truly, what is Francis saying that the bible doesn't? Be Fruitful and and Multiply.
Not agreeing with him, mind.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
The quote in the article:
quote:
This culture of well-being from 10 years ago convinced us: It’s better not to have children! It’s better! You can go explore the world, go on holiday, you can have a villa in the countryside, you can be care-free … it might be better — more comfortable — to have a dog, two cats, and the love goes to the two cats and the dog. Is this true or is this not? Have you seen it? Then, in the end this marriage comes to old age in solitude, with the bitterness of loneliness. It is not fruitful, it does not do what Jesus does with his Church: He makes His church fruitful.
Sounds to me like he's just repeating the Catholic Church's age-old idea that the main purpose of marriage is children. Companionship is supposed to be in there too, as far as I understand Catholic thought on the subject (which is probably not very far!), but that never seems to get the same emphasis.
But trying to persuade people to have children so they won't be lonely in old age is pretty weak, considering how many old people with children end up lonely anyway. And the theological reason he gives - Jesus makes his church fruitful, so marriage likewise should be fruitful - ignores both the fact that humanity has already been far too fruitful in the sense that he means and the possibility that there could be other fruits of marriage besides children.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
One of the first things I heard about Pope Francis was that he disapproved of pets. People shouldn't be lavishing cash on animals instead of the poor, so he said. Now he is saying people shouldn't lavish love on them either, at the expense of starting a human family.
I've got news for him: pets are not the problem in either case.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Drifting Star
Drifting against the wind
# 12799
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Posted
The loneliest people I know are those who spend all their time longing for their grown up children and/or grandchildren to visit them.
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The soul is dyed the color of its thoughts. Heraclitus
Posts: 3126 | From: A thin place. | Registered: Jul 2007
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Liopleurodon
Mighty sea creature
# 4836
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
One of the first things I heard about Pope Francis was that he disapproved of pets. People shouldn't be lavishing cash on animals instead of the poor, so he said. Now he is saying people shouldn't lavish love on them either, at the expense of starting a human family.
I've got news for him: pets are not the problem in either case.
Well quite. And if your love for dogs is in direct competition with (or would be if you had them) your love for your children, then you REALLY shouldn't have children.
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Our God is an awesome God. Much better than that ridiculous God that Desert Bluffs has. - Welcome to Night Vale
Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
We do worry a bit about old old age, when usually it's your kids who make sure you get to the doctor and notice whether a mailed item demanding money is a bill or a scam and protest nursing home neglect.
If I've learned one thing from my now 94-year-old father, it's that I'll be checking out from this hotel long before I arrive at that point.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
I recommend that if you don't have kids, connect to relatives' children (siblings, cousins) and the children of friends. Do you enjoy the grandchildren of your friends or relatives? Could you connect via a mutual interest? Why not?
Like marriage and friendship, having relationships with others takes some energy and effort. I suspect for some that alleviation of prospective loneliness will be via such deliberate connectedness. I have a sister who has done this with my children and a brother who has not: neither have children. Like all relationships it is in your hands to develop or not.
I predict that it will be difficult, unfair and not happening for my children to feel obligated extend themselves to help my brother who they see for a few days at most every year or two and easy for them to extend themselves to my sister whom they talk to all the time via computer and visit. I encourage anyone in this position to take some initiative.
But why should a childless adult connect with kids? What if they just plain don't like kids?
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Tulfes
Shipmate
# 18000
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
How many of you have taken the trouble to find this story on the web? Pope Francis was talking to couples, not to the world in general.
The anti-materialist motive behind his homily was commendable, but the reports have stressed the "Children not pets" soundbite.
Okay, the pope was speaking to "couples". But he was clearly saying that, if couples don't have children, they face a lonely old age. By implication, although not the object of the pope's speech, singles who remain childless will equally be lonely in their old age.
I really don't see how the first paragraph of the OP misrepresented what the pope said.
Posts: 175 | Registered: Feb 2014
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tulfes:
Pope Francis has said that people without children will enjoy a lonely and bitter old age.
So, Catholics aren't allowed to live in communal living arrangements (nursing homes, old folks' homes)?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tulfes:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
How many of you have taken the trouble to find this story on the web? Pope Francis was talking to couples, not to the world in general.
The anti-materialist motive behind his homily was commendable, but the reports have stressed the "Children not pets" soundbite.
Okay, the pope was speaking to "couples". But he was clearly saying that, if couples don't have children, they face a lonely old age. By implication, although not the object of the pope's speech, singles who remain childless will equally be lonely in their old age.
I really don't see how the first paragraph of the OP misrepresented what the pope said.
It didn't misrepresent but all the reports and many of the comments have placed the emphasis incorrectly. Having pets instead of children, fancy holidays and possessions are all symptoms of the materialism the Pope was attacking. He's a Franciscan after all, and it's consistent with that.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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art dunce
Shipmate
# 9258
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Posted
A Franciscan who doesn't like animals? Wasn't Francis all about the animals?
As for kids they are lousy companions most of the time and my dog is by far my most constant companion. I did lay pastoral care for a long time and visited many elderly people abandoned by their busy families who felt lonelier than the childless who had no such expectation and sense of loss.
[ 04. June 2014, 18:23: Message edited by: art dunce ]
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Ego is not your amigo.
Posts: 1283 | From: in the studio | Registered: Apr 2005
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
I'm very firmly of the opinion, though, that treating any sentient being as a solution to a problem rather than a worthwhile individual in their own right is going to cause heartache for someone. Don't get a cat just because you have a mouse problem. Don't get a pony just because your child won't stop having tantrums and you don't know what to do. And above all, do NOT have children just because you're worried that you might not have anyone else to love you in 50 years time.
Well said! I was offended the first time I heard someone suggest, "So you'll have someone to care for you in your old age," as a reason to have children and I find it almost equally offensive to think of cultivating a friendship with someone else's children for that reason.
Does the Pope think most old people's grown children are visiting daily, with babies and jars of homemade jam in tow? I'm sure it happens, but my widowed friend rarely sees any of her five children because they all live a bit too far away to visit often. I think that's more often the case, at least in America.
If I'm still around after my husband and son are gone, I plan to do what my father did during his final, half-senile years -- exactly what I want to do. His house was a messy hoard, but he painted some fine pictures while he ignored housekeeping duties and doctor appointments. He fell in and out of love faster than a teenager at summer camp, he gave whopping big tips to pretty young waitresses just so he could hold their hands while he put the money in them. He bought himself a brand new car every six months, depreciation be damned. And through it all he had his Corgi!
My visits were barely born irritants, what with the cleaning and nagging and totally cramping his style.
I think my baby boomer generation is going to find lots of new systems for taking care of ourselves and each other. We've already started with the Red Hat groups, Silver Sneakers work outs at the YMCA and we have the internet!
[ 04. June 2014, 18:34: Message edited by: Twilight ]
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by art dunce:
A Franciscan who doesn't like animals? Wasn't Francis all about the animals?
Pets=\=Caring about animals.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
Um, just because the Holy Father chose to be known as Francis does not negate the fact that he is a Jesuit.
Pius XII had parakeets, though. He was a careerist. I think Benedict XVI had cats.
As for being childless, essentially I am. My children are not in my life. Even if they were, I would not choose to leave my eldercare to them. I have made what I hope are satisfactory arrangements for my old age, if I make it that far.
I like kids. Just glad I don't have to deal with them all the time.
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Tulfes:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
How many of you have taken the trouble to find this story on the web? Pope Francis was talking to couples, not to the world in general.
The anti-materialist motive behind his homily was commendable, but the reports have stressed the "Children not pets" soundbite.
Okay, the pope was speaking to "couples". But he was clearly saying that, if couples don't have children, they face a lonely old age. By implication, although not the object of the pope's speech, singles who remain childless will equally be lonely in their old age.
I really don't see how the first paragraph of the OP misrepresented what the pope said.
It didn't misrepresent but all the reports and many of the comments have placed the emphasis incorrectly. Having pets instead of children, fancy holidays and possessions are all symptoms of the materialism the Pope was attacking. He's a Franciscan after all, and it's consistent with that.
The Pope is a Jesuit, not a Franciscan. In any case, how is having pets materialism? How is not having children materialism? There are many reasons for not having children.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by art dunce:
A Franciscan who doesn't like animals? Wasn't Francis all about the animals?
Pope Francis is a Jesuit not a Franciscan, though his choice of Papal name indicates a feeling for Francis. However, Francis certainly was not 'all about the animals'. He was about the Gospel. Creation (including animals) played a part in his spirituality, but he's not just about fluffy bunnies.
Carys TSSF
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
But why should a childless adult connect with kids? What if they just plain don't like kids?
This is a good question. My first instinct is to talk about tolerance and intolerance. My response is that children are people, and if you don't like children are you also saying you don't like people. Children are human beings in their own right, they do have short stature, knowledge deficits and sometimes legume anorexia (they won't eat their vegetables), but they are people. I think that preference is only one consideration in the obligation and responsibility to be part of a society, community and family. I don't want to create or promote another 'ism', but there are also people who don't like the elderly.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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moonlitdoor
Shipmate
# 11707
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Posted
I don't see anything in the Pope's remarks to indicate that he doesn't like animals, or that people shouldn't have pets. That seems to be reading more into what he said than is really there.
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We've evolved to being strange monkeys, but in the next life he'll help us be something more worthwhile - Gwai
Posts: 2210 | From: london | Registered: Aug 2006
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I am gay, if I don't fuck anyone can I have a tiger ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tulfes:
Okay, the pope was speaking to "couples". But he was clearly saying that, if couples don't have children, they face a lonely old age. By implication, although not the object of the pope's speech, singles who remain childless will equally be lonely in their old age.
That's why I mentioned his previous comments about nuns - that nuns should become spiritual mothers, rather than 'spinsters'. I imagine he sees himself as a spiritual father, and he would see people who are single or couples who can't have children as having some kind of duty to be spiritual parents instead.
His main emphasis seems to be more about not being selfish - that seemed to be the focus in his comments to nuns, and also here to couples, as he is talking about the culture of well-being. He seems to be suggesting people should be motivated by love and the desire to give, rather than self-fulfilment. Except that he is framing it all in terms of families and parenthood, which isn't so helpful. I'm not even sure, when he's talking about loneliness in old age, whether he means having no grandkids to look after you, or whether he means a feeling of emptiness from not having given oneself to others.
It's quite difficult to tell from the articles - I assume his address was not originally in English, so may well have different implications in his own language and culture. It would also be useful to see the entirety of what he said, rather than little snippets.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
I am gay, if I don't fuck anyone can I have a tiger ?
Well, I don't know. What are your intentions towards the tiger?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
I am gay, if I don't fuck anyone can I have a tiger ?
Nice one.
I'm thinking the bicycle will be useful for walking the tiger, or going for runs, or whatever it is that you do with tigers. You will also many friends: "can I pat your tiger?"
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
I have told my children that the Pope has said that I won't be lonely in my old age because they're going to fulfil all my needs for friendship, companionship etc.
Their response has not encouraged me to believe that Pope Francis is right.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
But why should a childless adult connect with kids? What if they just plain don't like kids?
This is a good question. My first instinct is to talk about tolerance and intolerance. My response is that children are people, and if you don't like children are you also saying you don't like people. Children are human beings in their own right, they do have short stature, knowledge deficits and sometimes legume anorexia (they won't eat their vegetables), but they are people. I think that preference is only one consideration in the obligation and responsibility to be part of a society, community and family. I don't want to create or promote another 'ism', but there are also people who don't like the elderly.
But that's different to what you were talking about - saying that childless people should connect with children (in order not to be lonely?). There are many childless people who would never harm a child, but choose not to connect with children and are very happy like that. I can't see how that is treating children badly.
People don't have the right to mistreat the elderly, but they have every right not to go out of their way to connect with elderly people just because they have no elderly people in their life. A lack of children in one's life is not a flaw.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
I assume his address was not originally in English, so may well have different implications in his own language and culture.
Perhaps in the Latin American culture he comes from people do expect their children to support and comfort them in old age. But that's not really part of Western (especially Western Anglophone) thinking now.
Moreover, I don't think there's much point in religious leaders urging Westerners to have (more) children if they don't even consider the economic and cultural reasons that lead to low birth rates in the first place.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Perhaps in the Latin American culture he comes from people do expect their children to support and comfort them in old age. But that's not really part of Western (especially Western Anglophone) thinking now.
Yes, that's the sort of thing I was wondering. I've no idea about Latin American culture, but I know I've worked with colleagues from African and Asian countries who say that in their countries people simply don't send family members to care homes - that they are quite horrified by the idea, because in their culture families care for family members who are elderly/disabled/etc.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
I've worked with colleagues from African and Asian countries who say that in their countries people simply don't send family members to care homes - that they are quite horrified by the idea, because in their culture families care for family members who are elderly/disabled/etc.
I've had people right here in Ohio tell me I was a bad daughter for putting my father in a nursing home during his last year of life. I guess I could have kept him in my home by force, he had refused to come while he was still lucid enough to argue, but then I expect I would have made a sorry mess of inserting his IV's and catheters and putting him back in bed after his mini-strokes.
I always wonder how these superior, "I'd never put my parent in a home," types plan to get along without medical training or equipment. I spent two months in a nursing home a few years ago and it was far more pleasant to have rehab nurses pick me up off the floor, when I fell, than to have my husband try to do it by almost pulling my arm out of it's socket. I liked the nursing home. Why such a huge stigma about them?
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I always wonder how these superior, "I'd never put my parent in a home," types plan to get along without medical training or equipment. I spent two months in a nursing home a few years ago and it was far more pleasant to have rehab nurses pick me up off the floor, when I fell, than to have my husband try to do it by almost pulling my arm out of it's socket. I liked the nursing home. Why such a huge stigma about them?
I think with my colleagues it was simply a cultural thing, and was possibly easier than it would be here because of extended families living together, so sharing the workload.
We were working in a care home, so they saw what they were like in the UK - that we treated the residents well and the residents were happy. They were just explaining that in their culture it didn't happen - that they wouldn't do it to their family members. I imagine they get by because they have to - maybe there aren't the care homes in their country, and there is less advanced medical care in general. My African colleagues would also say people died younger where they were from.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I liked the nursing home. Why such a huge stigma about them?
In part, probably because the good nursing homes don't get publicity - the only time a nursing home appears in the press is when some case of horrific mistreatment of the elderly and vulnerable comes to light, and you have elderly people being beaten and taunted by their "carers" or something.
If everything you hear about something is bad...
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
At least in the nursing homes there's a good chance someone will see and report abuse, elder abuse in the home might go on for years before anyone gets suspicious.
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
At least in the nursing homes there's a good chance someone will see and report abuse, elder abuse in the home might go on for years before anyone gets suspicious.
Sure, but everybody knows that they wouldn't abuse their elderly relative, and nor would anyone that they know. That kind of thing is done by other people.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Also, in a society with large extended families, it's easier to take care of a failing relative. With two-income nuclear families and latchkey kids, caring for an end-of-life relative is much much harder.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Err, so all RC clergy including himself will have a lonely and bitter old age? Really?
No, all RC clergy are married to Our Lady. She keeps them from being alone. ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I always wonder how these superior, "I'd never put my parent in a home," types plan to get along without medical training or equipment. I spent two months in a nursing home a few years ago and it was far more pleasant to have rehab nurses pick me up off the floor, when I fell, than to have my husband try to do it by almost pulling my arm out of it's socket. I liked the nursing home. Why such a huge stigma about them?
I think with my colleagues it was simply a cultural thing, and was possibly easier than it would be here because of extended families living together, so sharing the workload.
We were working in a care home, so they saw what they were like in the UK - that we treated the residents well and the residents were happy. They were just explaining that in their culture it didn't happen - that they wouldn't do it to their family members. I imagine they get by because they have to - maybe there aren't the care homes in their country, and there is less advanced medical care in general. My African colleagues would also say people died younger where they were from.
We work with a lot of Asian immigrants who say the same thing, but change their minds when they discover the reality of doing (say) dementia care while at the same time holding a fulltime job (economically necessary). Or anything that requires medical skills like inserting catheters, dealing with IVs, etc. Most of the time they're quite sincere, they've just never had to do that level of care before, and when it happens they find out it's beyond them.
Of course, we also have our share of elder abuse in private homes, and have had to intervene to get the elder into a safer placement--usually a nursing home. Which is resisted by some relatives who don't want to put out the money.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Err, so all RC clergy including himself will have a lonely and bitter old age? Really?
No, all RC clergy are married to Our Lady. She keeps them from being alone.
But they won't have children.
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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