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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Evangelical students & early marriage
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Amir Emrra:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
One website I came across suggested that early marriage and frequent divorce in American evangelicalism was possibly due to the fact that most American evangelicals are relatively poor. Poverty is a significant contributing factor to divorce.
Yes, I saw a US study that said, regarding teen marriages, dropping out of school raised that person's chances of chronic poverty by 11% , but getting married early raised the chances to 31%.
And those American teens probably come from relatively poor families to start with.
I'm in England, and times have changed from when I was in the Methodist/URC Soc at uni in the early 90s. It didn't seem weird for Christian students to meet up and then get married after graduating. But neither was it a big fashionable thing to do.
If the evangelical student majority now routinely pair off at uni (are there any figures?) then I suppose there should be relevant group discussions about romance and marriage, etc. to get them thinking. I presume that chaplains have always been available for young couples looking for confidential advice, but do students think to ask?
Most CUs have poor relationships with the chaplains due to most chaplains being Anglican or RC and many CU members not considering them to be 'proper' Christians. IME the students may have some advice from home groups at their church, or married couples there.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
But surely universities need to be hiring a few chaplains from evangelical denominations if most of the Christian students are now evangelical? Chaplains come from all sorts of religious backgrounds these days, so it shouldn't be a problem.
The CofE chaplains probably have a more meaningful relationship with the non-religious students than with the evangelical ones. That would make a lot of sense, because their training and experience involves them in ministering to lots of ordinary people in the community rather than religiously earnest teens.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
I went to a university which employed no chaplains at all. There were chaplains, employed and appointed by the main denominations - full time for CofE and RC, ministers of local churches for the Methodists, URC, Baptists, Quakers, and the Welsh Language Chapel. Leaders of local evangelical churches did act in a similar fashion as the other local church ministers given the role of chaplain. Of course, the majority of CU members went to local churches and the leaders there provide some pastoral support. The CU had an advisory group comprising 3 local church leaders and 3 academics, the church leaders on that group in particular were regular speakers at the CU and although I'm not aware of anyone approaching them for pastoral care would (I'm sure) given that without hesitation.
Remember though, the CU is not an evangelical chaplaincy. It's fundamentally a mission organisation, it exists to evangelise to the students in the university. It does provide support for evangelical christians through bible study and prayer groups, the main meetings and other activities - but, that's primarily support to enable more effective mission. It is expected that CU members attend a local church, and that the local church is the primary pastoral support and place of fellowship and worship.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
CU at my daughter's (last) university only had evangelical chaplains for most of her degree, however following the demise of MethSoc the RC and Muslims banded together to get some other religious representation. There was an active RC chaplain who ran services on campus - but there was no information unless you saw the poster on the door.
So while the CU favoured chaplain held sway any enquiring students, including the RC and Anglican students, were directed to the nearest Free Evangelical or Vineyard churches. There was no record in the CU office of the RC Cathedral* in the city or the RC and CofE churches near the halls, or the orthodox churches (Greek and Russian). They also failed to tell Salvation Army students where the nearest Hall was. And her CU friends married at university or as they finished their first degrees. They were under pressure from the CU to be dating within the CU and once dating to get married. Not dating was seen as an indication that the student might be gay and should be praying for a cure.
The only reason we found out about the CofE churches was me checking on the Ship and personal links to people who know.
This was 5 years ago, but this was known to be a fairly extreme SCU at the time, to the point that conservative evangelicals dropped out.
* experience of both my daughter and catholic flatmate one year and Greek Orthodox friend and Salvation Army Friend.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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OddJob
Shipmate
# 17591
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Posted
My view is that Christians are more polarised than ever, either marrying soon after Uni or on the other hand struggling to meet the right sort of person and not marrying (or even dating) until their thirties.
Back in my 1980s student/early working life, single Christian men vastly outnumbered their female counterparts in all the four cities I lived, hence a large glut of single men (the lifeblood of the Charismatic Movement, to digress). The increase in females at Universities since then has largely wiped out the imbalance, IMO. But there are still some pockets of imbalance.
In those days my peers and I saw it it as a key part of a young man's Christian witness to be brash about a lack of sexperience.
To this day I know few Christian couples who, like my wife and I, married at an a average age for doing so.
Posts: 97 | From: West Midlands | Registered: Mar 2013
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amir Emrra:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
One website I came across suggested that early marriage and frequent divorce in American evangelicalism was possibly due to the fact that most American evangelicals are relatively poor. Poverty is a significant contributing factor to divorce.
Yes, I saw a US study that said, regarding teen marriages, dropping out of school raised that person's chances of chronic poverty by 11% , but getting married early raised the chances to 31%.
One commentary I read, however, found it helpful to look at this in terms of live-in relationships rather than isolating marriage per se. When you lump the two together you find very similar results and life patterns for both evangelicals and non-evangelicals, religious and non-religious.
iow, many young people couple up and move in together in their early 20s, whether with or without the sanction of marriage. Those relationships have a generally low rate of success, with married relationships having a slight edge over unmarried cohabitation in terms of longevity, but both sorts of "starter" relationships having less odds of success than later married relationships.
[ 28. June 2014, 21:58: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by OddJob:
My view is that Christians are more polarised than ever, either marrying soon after Uni or on the other hand struggling to meet the right sort of person and not marrying (or even dating) until their thirties.
I think this is because for women in England it's harder to find a Christian spouse if you don't find someone at university, worship in London, or attend a large evangelical church.
OTOH there's no rule that says everyone ought to be getting married at about the same time.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by OddJob:
My view is that Christians are more polarised than ever, either marrying soon after Uni or on the other hand struggling to meet the right sort of person and not marrying (or even dating) until their thirties.
I don't think it is Christians - I think that this is a reflection on life. At uni you get a chance to meet hundreds of possible partners of similar ages and (probably) intellectual backgrounds. So it is not surprising that many people do indeed find a partner then. But once you have left uni and begun work, the opportunities for encountering new potential partners reduce dramatically. This is why organisations like Match.com and (shudder) Christian Mingle have become so important in recent years.
I have a (non-Christian) friend who would really quite like a husband. She has had a couple of boyfriends in the past, but nothing worked out for her for a variety of reasons (one of which is, by her own admission, pretty high standards). Over the past 10 years or so (she is in her mid 30's), work has taken her out of the UK for some years and then has eaten up a large part of the rest of her life. The only way she can find to meet new men is through something like Match.com. And even that isn't terribly helpful - on one occasion she was matched with a bloke she already knew and who she had already dismissed as a complete waste of space.
For a lot of people in the UK, these days, if you don't find The One at university, your chances of finding someone will become a whole lot harder.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
For a lot of people in the UK, these days, if you don't find The One at university, your chances of finding someone will become a whole lot harder.
Indeed. Universities place you in a society filled with people of roughly your age and roughly your intellectual ability. They then provide a large number of interest-oriented student clubs, so you will naturally encounter lots of people of about your age, of the correct sex, and with similar interests to you.
The only downside from the point of view of matchmaking is that you have to do all this when you're 18 and clueless.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Which is a very good reason for avoiding all this premature matrimony. Try out some boundaries, find yourself, take some risks - but then I suppose that if you're inclined to do that sort of thing, you're unlikely to be moving in these GLE circles in the first place.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Edith
Shipmate
# 16978
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Posted
Are there any Evangelicals who don't go to university? And if there are, do they marry early too?
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Edith
Posts: 256 | From: UK | Registered: Mar 2012
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Edith:
Are there any Evangelicals who don't go to university? And if there are, do they marry early too?
IME, conservative evangelicalism (as opposed to charismatic evangelicalism) tends to be strongly middle-class in the UK and so most young con-evos will go to university or at least some other kind of higher education (Bible college for instance, which I would class separately to standard universities). In my experience of those who don't go to university (con-evo and char-evo) they tend to marry younger than the secular average but IME university gives a push to early marriage.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Edith:
Are there any Evangelicals who don't go to university? And if there are, do they marry early too?
Yes and yes.
Though I was one who went to uni and never got married.
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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
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Posts: 3791 | From: On the corporate ladder | Registered: Jan 2012
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Tulfes
Shipmate
# 18000
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by Edith:
Are there any Evangelicals who don't go to university? And if there are, do they marry early too?
IME, conservative evangelicalism (as opposed to charismatic evangelicalism) tends to be strongly middle-class in the UK and so most young con-evos will go to university or at least some other kind of higher education (Bible college for instance, which I would class separately to standard universities). In my experience of those who don't go to university (con-evo and char-evo) they tend to marry younger than the secular average but IME university gives a push to early marriage.
Are you not stereotyping people? After all, you would be howling with anger if anyone dared to stereotype gay people as "promiscuous" or etc.
Posts: 175 | Registered: Feb 2014
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tulfes:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by Edith:
Are there any Evangelicals who don't go to university? And if there are, do they marry early too?
IME, conservative evangelicalism (as opposed to charismatic evangelicalism) tends to be strongly middle-class in the UK and so most young con-evos will go to university or at least some other kind of higher education (Bible college for instance, which I would class separately to standard universities). In my experience of those who don't go to university (con-evo and char-evo) they tend to marry younger than the secular average but IME university gives a push to early marriage.
Are you not stereotyping people? After all, you would be howling with anger if anyone dared to stereotype gay people as "promiscuous" or etc.
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
I'm sorry, I don't see what I've said that is 'stereotyping' people in the same way as someone stereotyping gay people as promiscuous. Evangelical churches ARE overwhelmingly middle-class in the UK, because the church as a whole in the UK is mostly middle-class. I am also failing to see how being called middle-class is an insult.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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ecumaniac
Ship's whipping girl
# 376
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Which is a very good reason for avoiding all this premature matrimony. Try out some boundaries, find yourself, take some risks - but then I suppose that if you're inclined to do that sort of thing, you're unlikely to be moving in these GLE circles in the first place.
"Finding yourself" is a lot easier to do if you at least have the chance to establish yourself in your career/post-uni life without the encumberance of having to pander to your husband's career choices. And let's face it, if we're talking GLE circles, it is almost inevitably the wife's career that takes 2nd place when major decisions are made. This is why I'd be anxious if my child was getting married while still at university, and doubly so if it was a female child.
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it's a secret club for people with a knitting addiction, hiding under the cloak of BDSM - Catrine
Posts: 2901 | From: Cambridge | Registered: Jun 2001
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Jade: quote:
I am also failing to see how being called middle-class is an insult.
'Middle-class' has been used as an insult for decades - nay, centuries, ever since Karl Marx declared open season on the bourgeoisie. It is used in a purely descriptive sense by social scientists, but we are not all social scientists here.
Ecumaniac makes a good point about wives' careers being subordinated to their husbands', but you don't need to be married for this to happen. If you have a Significant Other and want to spend a lot of time with them, you will concentrate on looking for jobs in the same area as theirs.
And it's not always the wife who has to give up what she wants to do. My own Other Half supported me in making a career change; luckily he didn't have to give up his own job to do so because I was able to find a job in my new field within commuting distance of his work, but if he had he'd have done it because he could see my old job was making me miserable.
[ 30. June 2014, 19:16: Message edited by: Jane R ]
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Jade: quote:
I am also failing to see how being called middle-class is an insult.
'Middle-class' has been used as an insult for decades - nay, centuries, ever since Karl Marx declared open season on the bourgeoisie. It is used in a purely descriptive sense by social scientists, but we are not all social scientists here.
Ecumaniac makes a good point about wives' careers being subordinated to their husbands', but you don't need to be married for this to happen. If you have a Significant Other and want to spend a lot of time with them, you will concentrate on looking for jobs in the same area as theirs.
And it's not always the wife who has to give up what she wants to do. My own Other Half supported me in making a career change; luckily he didn't have to give up his own job to do so because I was able to find a job in my new field within commuting distance of his work, but if he had he'd have done it because he could see my old job was making me miserable.
I realise that middle-class can be used in a pejorative way, but I was using it in a purely descriptive way. Most evangelicals in the UK are middle-class - that's not me insulting them, it's just how it is because most Christians in the UK are middle-class. That's not a stereotype.
And I think ecumaniac was commenting more on evangelical culture putting the husband first - obviously most couples have to compromise, but there is a distinct gendered element to it for conservative evangelicals in particular.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Jade: quote:
I am also failing to see how being called middle-class is an insult.
'Middle-class' has been used as an insult for decades - nay, centuries, ever since Karl Marx declared open season on the bourgeoisie. It is used in a purely descriptive sense by social scientists, but we are not all social scientists here.
In that case, by what name do you refer to the group of people that social scientists describe as "middle-class" in order to avoid being insulting?
In the States this is pretty much a non-issue. In fact, many people stretch the parameters of middle-class-dom to include anyone who is basically financially solvent with a respectable income on up to a suburban home-owner who also might have a summer property at the lake or beach, and takes non-extravagant vacations over seas most years. And a person does not have to be well-educated to bear the label. A construction worker who has managed to start a prosperous contracting firm may be called "middle-class".
Here, middle-class is an honorable label in most instances. Perhaps unless said sneeringly by a young, artsy type person.
[ 30. June 2014, 21:01: Message edited by: Lyda*Rose ]
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Lyda Rose: quote:
In that case, by what name do you refer to the group of people that social scientists describe as "middle-class" in order to avoid being insulting?
Well, if pushed I would say middle-class too. But so many people are middle-class nowadays that the label is almost meaningless and social scientists are developing more precise terms. The UK Census uses the National Statistics Socio-Economic Classification to gather information on class. The Great British Class Survey uses a seven-point classification, of which two categories are definitely middle class (established and technical) and two (new affluent workers and emergent services sector) include people who might self-identify as middle class.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Vaticanchic
Shipmate
# 13869
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Posted
You might also find AC ordinands insisting on getting married before ordination, in line with wider Catholic/Orthodox discipline - I did, unfortunately.
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"Sink, Burn or Take Her a Prize"
Posts: 697 | From: UK | Registered: Jul 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Vaticanchic:
You might also find AC ordinands insisting on getting married before ordination, in line with wider Catholic/Orthodox discipline - I did, unfortunately.
I couldn't see where this was addressed on the thread, so I thought I'd clarify: Orthodox priests are not allowed to marry. So if you want to be a married Orthodox priest, you must marry before you are ordained. Thus the seminaries are virtual meat markets for about-to-graduate students. Ladies! Want to be a matushka/presvytera/khouria (priest's wife)? Show up at the seminary in the Spring and look marriageable.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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ecumaniac
Ship's whipping girl
# 376
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Posted
In contrast, the Lutherans in my home town (and I assume the entire region) encouraged their young men to be approved for pastor training before getting married. Because if they were married, the wife would also be scrutinised for her suitability before he would be accepted for seminary, but if they were only dating/he was single, then he was considered on his own merits only.
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it's a secret club for people with a knitting addiction, hiding under the cloak of BDSM - Catrine
Posts: 2901 | From: Cambridge | Registered: Jun 2001
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
Twenty years ago I graduated from uni, and I noticed at the time that there were a lot of students from the CU who married very soon after graduation.
More recently I did another degree, and noticed the same. A lot of the young evangelical Christians got married very soon after graduation.
I attended an evangelical church twenty years ago, when I was at uni, and noticed since that the young people there (younger than me - those who were young teens when I was at uni) all got married very young. Those who went to uni married after uni. Those who didn't often married even younger.
Those I am still in contact with, from both unis and the church, are still married to the same partner, and nearly all have children.
I don't know if it's an evangelical thing in particular though, because I noticed the same pattern with my Mennonite friends when I was in Canada, and their approach to their faith didn't appear to be an evangelical one, if you are defining evangelical as wanting to share one's faith with others with the hope of converting them. That is how I have heard the term used, but it's possible you may be using it differently, and Mennonites might be inlcluded within it.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
IME, conservative evangelicalism (as opposed to charismatic evangelicalism) tends to be strongly middle-class in the UK and so most young con-evos will go to university or at least some other kind of higher education (Bible college for instance, which I would class separately to standard universities).
I'm curious about the distinction between conservative and charismatic evangelicalism. Those I would define as charismatic evangelicals tend to be incredibly conservative in their views.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
IME, conservative evangelicalism (as opposed to charismatic evangelicalism) tends to be strongly middle-class in the UK and so most young con-evos will go to university or at least some other kind of higher education (Bible college for instance, which I would class separately to standard universities).
I'm curious about the distinction between conservative and charismatic evangelicalism. Those I would define as charismatic evangelicals tend to be incredibly conservative in their views.
It's not to suggest that charismatic evangelicals can't be conservative (though the open evangelicals I've come across tend to be charismatic, at least a little), just to distinguish between charismatic evangelicalism and the Reformed/Calvinist/cessationist type. Certainly IME charismatic evangelicals are more likely to be more liberal than cessationist types are likely to be liberal - but that obviously doesn't mean there aren't some very conservative charismatic evangelicals.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
It probably dates back to the older division within evangelicalism over charismatic gifts (a division that seems to generally being healed). Also, remember that until very recently conservative evangelicals tended to be identified by adherence to doctrine, in particular to Scripture as ultimate authority for doctrine, rather than issues of morality and ethics.
There was a suspicion among more conservative evangelicals that charismatics placed their experience of the direct action of the Spirit in their lives above the authority of Scripture (of course, Charismatics deny this). It's not a new argument, there are comments by some Puritans related to prophetic messages to the effect that if what the message says contradicts Scripture it's false, and if it repeats Scripture it's superfluous. Regardless of whether or not the conservative claim that charismatics didn't hold Scriptural authority highly enough, it's probably undeniable that charismatics would be more likely to let experience guide their faith and practice. In particular, if someone was demonstrating the fruits of the Spirit in their lives (love, joy, peace etc), and perhaps especially if they demonstrated the gifts such as tongues and prophecy, then they would likely be accepted regardless of other aspects of their life such as sexuality.
This combination tends towards a tendency for charismatics to be more liberal in doctrine and ethics. But, it is a tendency and there are plenty of non-charismatics within affirming evangelicals.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Vaticanchic:
You might also find AC ordinands insisting on getting married before ordination, in line with wider Catholic/Orthodox discipline - I did, unfortunately.
I'm intrigued.
I've never heard anyone suggest that CofE clergy, or any group of them, should follow that discipline, and marry before ordination or never. I've also never heard anyone suggest that CofE bishops should only be chosen from among bachelors or widowers, or of anyone who turned down being made a bishop because he was married.
Have I missed something or have I been moving in the wrong circles?
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Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Have I missed something or have I been moving in the wrong circles?
I haven't encountered it in person, but I understand that many of the tractarians and other 19th century Anglo-Catholics were celibate.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Yes, but of course that has to be set in a wider cultural background: the C19 understood the concept of the life-long bachelor rather better than we do, and of course many of them were or had been Fellows of collegs in the ancient universities, which were until, what, 1880-ish, bodies of unmarried (and one might hope celibate or at least chaste) men.
Keble and Manning were married, but whether before or after ordination I don't know.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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3M Matt
Shipmate
# 1675
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Posted
I'm now 33, and, despite a couple of close calls, I'm still single...
For whatever reason the "meet nice Christian girl at CU and get married after graduation" cliche didn't quite happen for me.
However, that does seem to be the Evangelical "norm", I have a funny feeling that will have changed in the last 10 years.
I went to uni in 2000, and it is stunning to me how much church culture has changed in the 15 years since. I have a feeling that, amongst Evangelicals under the age of 25 there is a quiet, largely unspoken acceptance of pre-marital sex, so long as it's not gratutously in-your-face or promiscuous then it's become something of a non-issue to young evangelicals.
I suspect that the result is that the days of GLEs getting married at 21 the summer they graduate from uni are fading out.
Speaking as someone who missed all that and has ended up, a few relationships later, still single at 33, I'm really not sure if I think that's a good or bad thing.
On the one hand, knowing the person I was at 21 I'm terrified at the prospect I might have made a decision as big as marriage at that age....on the other hand, at age 33, do I wish things had all panned out easier and more straightforward? Probably.
The older I get, the better able I think i am to make that kind of decision, and yet also it becomes harder because the sheer arrogance of youth allows you to make snap committment decisions far more easily...the older you get the more you second guess yourself.
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3M Matt.
Posts: 1227 | From: London | Registered: Nov 2001
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by 3M Matt:
I'm now 33, and, despite a couple of close calls, I'm still single...
For whatever reason the "meet nice Christian girl at CU and get married after graduation" cliche didn't quite happen for me.
However, that does seem to be the Evangelical "norm", I have a funny feeling that will have changed in the last 10 years.
I went to uni in 2000, and it is stunning to me how much church culture has changed in the 15 years since. I have a feeling that, amongst Evangelicals under the age of 25 there is a quiet, largely unspoken acceptance of pre-marital sex, so long as it's not gratutously in-your-face or promiscuous then it's become something of a non-issue to young evangelicals.
I suspect that the result is that the days of GLEs getting married at 21 the summer they graduate from uni are fading out.
Speaking as someone who missed all that and has ended up, a few relationships later, still single at 33, I'm really not sure if I think that's a good or bad thing.
On the one hand, knowing the person I was at 21 I'm terrified at the prospect I might have made a decision as big as marriage at that age....on the other hand, at age 33, do I wish things had all panned out easier and more straightforward? Probably.
The older I get, the better able I think i am to make that kind of decision, and yet also it becomes harder because the sheer arrogance of youth allows you to make snap committment decisions far more easily...the older you get the more you second guess yourself.
I haven't seen those changes within my university's CU. I have seen it with open evangelicals - I know the CU here is at the very conservative (cessationist, Calvinist - mostly) end of things so perhaps that's why.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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3M Matt
Shipmate
# 1675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I haven't seen those changes within my university's CU. I have seen it with open evangelicals - I know the CU here is at the very conservative (cessationist, Calvinist - mostly) end of things so perhaps that's why.
Yes, as always, there is a counter-reaction to any action. A radically conservative/calvanist wing of young evangelicals is definitely springing up.
I'm thinking here of your charismatic-evangelicals. Think the types who like Spring Harvest and New Wine and Jesus Culture/bethel. (All things I suspect your Calvist CU is highly skeptical of)
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3M Matt.
Posts: 1227 | From: London | Registered: Nov 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by 3M Matt:
Yes, as always, there is a counter-reaction to any action. A radically conservative/calvanist wing of young evangelicals is definitely springing up.
TRR as a phenomena is now several years old and you are already getting a backlash to it.
Besides, CUs tend to be a repository of odd views by their very nature - as they tend to be lead by people whose ideas have yet to mature.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
TRR as a phenomena is now several years old and you are already getting a backlash to it. ...
What does TRR stand for please?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Back in the day when Teacher Training Colleges were separate from Universities, one of my college tutors made the remark: 'The difference between TTCs and Universities is the number of engagement rings'. His observation was nothing to do with religious faith, but more to do with the fact that people at TTCs were already focussed on a 'responsible' career, so already thinking of settling down (in all senses of the phrase) whereas people at University had not yet decided upon a life plan and were still having fun experimenting and 'finding themselves'.
A gross generalisation, of course, but I can see his point. I was one of the girls with an engagement ring, having met my future husband (not surprisingly, in a church choir) during my first year at college. We married one week after my graduation.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
When I was at Cambridge in the late 80s girls from Homerton (who were mostly doing BEds rather than BAs) had a reputation for being on the lookout for husbands. But that view might have been coloured a bit by sexism and snobbery.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
TRR as a phenomena is now several years old and you are already getting a backlash to it. ...
What does TRR stand for please?
Sorry .. The Restless Reformed, or the Young Restless Reformed (most of whom are in their 40s by now ..).
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
It matters far more if the couple are in love and believe they have found the right one, rather than what their ages are. One of my sons met his future wife when he was 15 (she was 14), so by the time they married, while she was still at university, they had been going out together for 6 years, quite long enough to get to know each other well. They weren't at CU, but both sang in a church choir. Christian, but not evangelical.
My other son is getting on towards 30 and is still single, so we can see the situation from both sides.
People, especially women, marrying later, often cause issues with having children, as fertility levels take a nosedive the older you are.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Emma Louise
Storm in a teapot
# 3571
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Posted
I married on the last day of term (Sadly didn't last but that was for many other reasons) and uite a few of our friends married withint he year.
Strict evo world, no sex before marriage, not much point in dating unless thinking long term, encouragement to marry and settle down etc. Sigh.
I don't want the same for my daughters but haven't had much of the real world modelled to me. I hope to God they don't get involved in uni CUs.
Posts: 12719 | From: Enid Blyton territory. | Registered: Nov 2002
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
Sorry .. The Restless Reformed, or the Young Restless Reformed (most of whom are in their 40s by now ..).
Obviously, I move in the wrong circles. Who are they?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Emma Louise:
I married on the last day of term (Sadly didn't last but that was for many other reasons) and uite a few of our friends married withint he year.
Strict evo world, no sex before marriage, not much point in dating unless thinking long term, encouragement to marry and settle down etc. Sigh.
I don't want the same for my daughters but haven't had much of the real world modelled to me. I hope to God they don't get involved in uni CUs.
Maybe it's the lot of humans to bemoan their youth. The grass is always greener...!
Realistically, though, most young people go to uni and enjoy sexual variety rather than CU restraint, especially if they don't come from a particularly religious background. If the quality of the spiritual life on offer is considered important, then the student should probably take that into account when they choose a uni; I can't understand the stories above of students who arrive expecting to find a friendly MOTR CofE church and ending up in the clutches of conservative evangelicalism. Maybe the problem is that even Christian students and parents treat religion as an afterthought, which leaves them at the mercy of the CU as the default choice.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
It may be that if you go to one of the universities that are essentially in the middle of no where your church choice may be very limited. But, if you go to university in a city or large town there will almost certainly be a church to suit virtually everyone (if you're wanting a welsh speaking presbyterian church in the south east of England you may be disappointed). They may not be a "student church", it may take some effort to find, you may be the only student there ... but, a bit of effort will probably be rewarded.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Maybe someone from a MOTR mainstream religious background is disadvantaged in this situation, because they assume that their tradition of theological breadth is normative and can be accommodated anywhere (even in the CU!). However, a Seventh Day Adventist or a Pentecostal student, for example, already knows that they have to take the initiative if they want to find a church, and that the first port of call might not be suitable.
Also, young Christians from some independent evangelical set-ups will have more experience at leading a fellowship group, whereas more mainstream Christians, usually from much smaller churches, are probably used to leaving this sort of thing to the clergy (or possibly to a much older authorised layperson). This being the case, it's hard to imagine that university CUs are likely to be in the hands of MOTR leaders (and hence in the grip of MOTR tolerant theololgy) in the future.
Young people who don't have the nous to find a MOTR CofE congregation in a country where the CofE is the state church aren't going to become the ecumenical and evangelistic leaders of the future!
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Maybe someone from a MOTR mainstream religious background is disadvantaged in this situation, because they assume that their tradition of theological breadth is normative and can be accommodated anywhere (even in the CU!).
Maybe someone from a MOTR mainstream background makes a stronger assumption - that the CU will be "normal MOTR". After all, why wouldn't a student society for Christians reflect "normal Christianity"?
Certainly when I was a student, my expectation was that the CU would be, well, a "Christian Union" - a broad-based group of Christians from all backgrounds, putting on interesting and educational theological discussions. A bit like the Ship, but in meatspace.
This expectation lasted until I met the CU people...
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Yes, but of course that has to be set in a wider cultural background: the C19 understood the concept of the life-long bachelor rather better than we do, and of course many of them were or had been Fellows of collegs in the ancient universities, which were until, what, 1880-ish, bodies of unmarried (and one might hope celibate or at least chaste) men.
Keble and Manning were married, but whether before or after ordination I don't know.
Manning was deaconed in 1832 and made a fellow of Merton; he married Caroline Sargent in 1833. If I understand it correctly, until the university reforms of the later Victorian period, fellowships were restricted to the unmarried/celibate clergy-- indeed, at that time, many ordained fellows remained deacons until they obtained a parish or a curacy. When a fellow married, he resigned from the college and was usually provided with a parish in the college's gift.
Unmarried fellows often stayed on in their fellowships until they died-- IIRC the elderly clerical fellow featured in CP Snow's novels of university life in the mid-20c.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Also, young Christians from some independent evangelical set-ups will have more experience at leading a fellowship group, whereas more mainstream Christians, usually from much smaller churches, are probably used to leaving this sort of thing to the clergy (or possibly to a much older authorised layperson). This being the case, it's hard to imagine that university CUs are likely to be in the hands of MOTR leaders (and hence in the grip of MOTR tolerant theololgy) in the future.
This is only tangentially true. The CU student leaders are appointed by their predecessors (I've never heard of a vote), and are 'supported' by UCCF regional workers who are, AIUI, at the more conservative end of evangelicalism.
I very much doubt whether a group of MOTR Anglican/Methodist/URC students could actually seize control of a university CU, simply because the CU's constitution doesn't allow for that.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
Not least because, in order to join your average CU, you have to sign up to a set of doctrinal statements (including, in particular, Biblical infallibility). Besides, if my university experience is anything to go by, the chaplaincy teams and other Christian societies make joining the CU an irrelevance, except for needing to remind folk constantly that no, not all Christians are like that.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Paul.
Shipmate
# 37
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Also, young Christians from some independent evangelical set-ups will have more experience at leading a fellowship group, whereas more mainstream Christians, usually from much smaller churches, are probably used to leaving this sort of thing to the clergy (or possibly to a much older authorised layperson). This being the case, it's hard to imagine that university CUs are likely to be in the hands of MOTR leaders (and hence in the grip of MOTR tolerant theololgy) in the future.
This is only tangentially true. The CU student leaders are appointed by their predecessors (I've never heard of a vote), and are 'supported' by UCCF regional workers who are, AIUI, at the more conservative end of evangelicalism.
When I was a student I was elected onto the "exec" of the CU. Of course we were "chosen" by the previous incumbents in the sense that we were given their blessing and very few CU members would vote against that but it was technically still possible. (IIRC we had to hold elections to keep in with the SU and get access to their facilities)
Perhaps things have changed since then.
Posts: 3689 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Not least because, in order to join your average CU, you have to sign up to a set of doctrinal statements (including, in particular, Biblical infallibility). Besides, if my university experience is anything to go by, the chaplaincy teams and other Christian societies make joining the CU an irrelevance, except for needing to remind folk constantly that no, not all Christians are like that.
It does vary re doctrinal statements - at the CU here you only have to sign up to it if you want to speak at CU meetings.
But yes, I agree with your comments - unless you're at one of the few universities with a strong Anglican/Catholic heritage or an unusually large amount of other faith societies, the CU is the main Christian society. At some universities, it may be the only Christian society.
In my case, being able to join SCM as an individual member was a lifesaver.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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