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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: What about the children far from home?
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
News reports say in the past 9 months, more than 52,000 children, many of them unaccompanied by adults, have sneaked into the USA. That's 10 times the number in 2009. NPR article
(That 52,000 number has been kicked around for a while, so it's higher by now. And that number doesn't include any who weren't caught.)
I have tremendous sympathy for parents so desperate they will send their children far away, spending their life savings to pay a "coyote" to transport them. That's got to be unbelievably painful for a parent. (Although a significant number are thought to be seeking economic opportunity, not fleeing danger.)
But what are we to do with such an influx of people needing schools and medical care and housing and foster parents? At 500 students per school (that's well above the average size but easy math) that would be over 1000 new schools, a huge expense for not only buildings but ongoing teacher costs even if that were the only expense.
What does "welcome the stranger" mean? Welcome - and pay all ongoing expenses of - as many as want to come? Welcome (and support) some number but no more (that's what any charity does), but what does it mean to turn someone away saying "we're full for now" when they are children? (Some of these are 17 year olds, probably able to get a job and or do crimes to take care of themselves, but reportedly some unaccompanied kids are as young as 5!)
Has the world ever before seen migration of unaccompanied children? How was it handled? What happened to the children?
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
But what are we to do with such an influx of people needing schools and medical care and housing and foster parents? At 500 students per school (that's well above the average size but easy math) that would be over 1000 new schools, a huge expense for not only buildings but ongoing teacher costs even if that were the only expense.
We could stop wasting so much money on things like the F-35 fighter jet - projected cost of the program: $396 billion - and we'd have plenty of money to spend on children whose parents would rather put them on a train alone with strangers than see them recruited into drug gangs or prostituted.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
But what are we to do with such an influx of people needing schools and medical care and housing and foster parents? At 500 students per school (that's well above the average size but easy math) that would be over 1000 new schools, a huge expense for not only buildings but ongoing teacher costs even if that were the only expense.
We could stop wasting so much money on things like the F-35 fighter jet - projected cost of the program: $396 billion - and we'd have plenty of money to spend on children whose parents would rather put them on a train alone with strangers than see them recruited into drug gangs or prostituted.
Yes. Yes. Yes.
On a more practical level, this is unfolding mere miles from my home, where one of the nearby "detention centers" has been swarmed by loud, angry protestors waving horrible signs and shouting hate-filled words at busloads of vulnerable, frightened children. And I find myself wanting to get into my car and drive over there and do something. But what? What would that something be?
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
Not to nitpick, but surely 52000 split into groups of 500 is closer to 100 than 1000?
In past times, large numbers of unaccompanied children were sent from one country to another. Some were accepted by the receiving country, some were not. Most of the ones who weren't were murdered within the following 5 years:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kindertransport
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Not to nitpick, but surely 52000 split into groups of 500 is closer to 100 than 1000?
In past times, large numbers of unaccompanied children were sent from one country to another. Some were accepted by the receiving country, some were not. Most of the ones who weren't were murdered within the following 5 years:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kindertransport
Unfortunately, despite our proud immigrant roots, the US history on this is not as heroic: US refuses entry to St. Louis passengers
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
Seems to me that you have a problem of religious entanglement with the activity of the state. The ignorant and the loudmouth Christians are desperate to avoid any contamination with activities that were mandated by their Founding Person, and the rest either don't care, are too busy shopping or simply quiver. The idea of sharing, of helping seems to be absent.
Try this one: Religious or not?
If your answer is "Not Religious", then you are probably free to ignore the issue, although I think quite a few atheists and no-longer-religious are on the side of the kids. If your answer is "Religious", you have no excuse to run away, and the same goes for everyone in your church and all the other churches.
But I know that the nasties will triumph, because that is what they do. (Heroic effort to avoid Godwin's Law)
We've just had our equivalent, in the oh-so-polite Canadian form of denying health care to refugee children, and the gov't, led (no surprise!) by a fundamentalist, has been whacked by the Supreme Court over that. Odd that the "secular" Supreme Court understands the Second Great Commandment better than does the Bible-thumping PM, but you know as well as I do that the judges (even those appointed by He-Who-Must-Be-Obeyed) will be blamed for not being able to read the law in the appropriate manner. But the election is fast approaching; sanity may reappear, somewhat battered.
PS: I also remember that the St. Louis was greeted in Quebec by a customs official who said "One Jew is too many" and sent the shipload back to France. We did learn enough from that to get an updated Constitution.
[ 15. July 2014, 16:59: Message edited by: Horseman Bree ]
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Belle Ringer: But what are we to do with such an influx of people needing schools and medical care and housing and foster parents? At 500 students per school (that's well above the average size but easy math) that would be over 1000 new schools, a huge expense for not only buildings but ongoing teacher costs even if that were the only expense.
The USA already has an 'influx' of 4 million children each year. Of course there are some extra costs in the case of immigrant children, but the children who are born within the USA cost money too. I don't see why a difference should be made.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Seems to me that you have a problem of religious entanglement with the activity of the state. The ignorant and the loudmouth Christians are desperate to avoid any contamination with activities that were mandated by their Founding Person, and the rest either don't care, are too busy shopping or simply quiver. The idea of sharing, of helping seems to be absent.
Try this one: Religious or not?
But see, both these things IMHO are arguing for MORE "religious entanglement" with affairs of the state, not less. But it is arguing for a more consistent, more thoughtful engagement, rather than a knee-jerk baptizing whatever your convenient self-serving political posturing with faux religious fervor. We need MORE thoughtful religious & moral engagement, not less.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Has the world ever before seen migration of unaccompanied children?
Every time there's a war lasting more than a few days. Which is a helpful metaphor to think of in the current situation. The children aren't fleeing a traditional military conflict, but the kind of violence by sub-state actors like gangs seems just as widespread and deadly as a conventional military conflict. These kids aren't "immigrants", they're refugees.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
Unfortunately, the U.S. is not very sophisticated about the difference between "refugee" and "immigrant".
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
And 80,000 homeless kids in UK? at Christmas? Hopefully they have parents.
Maybe the question should be what about the homeless children. But it's the ones without parents who distress me most.
Yes if USA would give up warmongering - but it's a deeply engrained habit. Every President either starts a war or continues one. (Except maybe Ford?) It's well known a war president gets re-elected.
Kid arrives age 9, homeless, hungry, probably little or no education, maybe sick, scared.
One kid, not a problem to find him or her a home. A thousand kids is a problem. Ten thousand kids is bigger than my whole city's population.
I'm just having trouble picturing so many kids.
First they get put in detention centers for processing, probably better than ignoring them in the hot desert, but that's got to be scary.
Problem with saying "what the heck we can afford it" is we keep cutting social services already. But sending them "home" is no answer.
I suppose USA could go do "regime change" in Central America like in Iraq? Re-government by invasion is never popular.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Belle Ringer: I suppose USA could go do "regime change" in Central America like in Iraq? Re-government by invasion is never popular.
In my opinion, the problems in Central America have their origin not in small part by "regime changes" done by the USA in the past.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I think we should take them.
What excuse could we offer not to?
We have money--certainly more than their parents and home countries. They are children--they had no choice about coming here, they cannot provide for themselves, they are at major risk.
I'm reminded of the post-Katrina efforts to resettle hurricane refugees. A bunch of people here volunteered to take people into their homes.
I'd be willing to do something similar. I bet a lot of people would.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Belle Ringer: I suppose USA could go do "regime change" in Central America like in Iraq? Re-government by invasion is never popular.
In my opinion, the problems in Central America have their origin not in small part by "regime changes" done by the USA in the past.
Yes. Seems to fall under the "you broke it you bought it" principle.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Actually, RuthW, the total cost of the F 35 will be over $1.45 Trillion dollars over its 50 year lifetime--from the time the idea came up to its development to its production to training of its crews to its operational costs to its deactivation to its disposal.
Seems we can use the money in different ways.
Actually the real culprit to the influx of Unaccompanied Children crossing into the US is the Central America Free Trade Agreement (CAFTA). It allowed Monsanto to dump all its surplus wheat on Central America destroying the family farm economy in Central America.
http://sandiegofreepress.org/2014/07/central-american-refugee-children-forced-on-a-dangerous-journey/#.U8XQv6hdWSo
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I don't have the numbers, but it is my impression that a large number of these children come from Honduras. I've lived in Honduras. This country had a regime change recently, with the consent of the USA.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Actually the real culprit to the influx of Unaccompanied Children crossing into the US is the Central America Free Trade Agreement (CAFTA). It allowed Monsanto to dump all its surplus wheat on Central America destroying the family farm economy in Central America.
http://sandiegofreepress.org/2014/07/central-american-refugee-children-forced-on-a-dangerous-journey/#.U8XQv6hdWSo
Your article mentions neither Monsanto nor its "surplus wheat" - possibly because Monsanto doesn't have any surplus wheat. They sell herbicides and seeds, none of which are likely to be "surplus" in need of dumping on poor people who can't afford them.
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I don't have the numbers, but it is my impression that a large number of these children come from Honduras. I've lived in Honduras. This country had a regime change recently, with the consent of the USA.
Well, no. (To your last sentence, that is. I'm not denying that you lived in Honduras.)
quote:
No foreign government recognised Micheletti as president.[254] US President Barack Obama, along with leaders and officials of governments throughout the hemisphere and the rest of the world, condemned the removal of President Zelaya as undemocratic and called the action taken against him a coup d'état.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Of course there are some extra costs in the case of immigrant children, but the children who are born within the USA cost money too. I don't see why a difference should be made.
There is the obvious difference that most of the costs of raising those 4 million children a year are borne by their parents. Most of them don't cost money to anyone else (well, OK, each one is a tax deduction, and will cost the public schools an extra few grand a year...)
To put it in context, 50,000 is roughly the number of children that are adopted from foster care in the US each year, or the total number of children in foster care in the state of California.
We can afford them - from the article, most stay with friends or family, so don't actually cost much.
But given that my opinion on immigration / border control is a long way on the open borders side of the US mean opinion, my opinion here may not be terribly helpful.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Belle Ringer: But what are we to do with such an influx of people needing schools and medical care and housing and foster parents? At 500 students per school (that's well above the average size but easy math) that would be over 1000 new schools, a huge expense for not only buildings but ongoing teacher costs even if that were the only expense.
The USA already has an 'influx' of 4 million children each year. Of course there are some extra costs in the case of immigrant children, but the children who are born within the USA cost money too. I don't see why a difference should be made.
In educational terms, the annual influx due to the birth rate is generally cancelled out by the annual efflux of older kids graduating from the system. Without any addition or subtraction due to external factors overall student numbers are effectively at "steady state".
An additional influx of tens of thousands of kids who are already of school age isn't cancelled out in the same way, and thus does require a huge expansion to the system.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Dave W.: Well, no. (To your last sentence, that is. I'm not denying that you lived in Honduras.)
quote:
No foreign government recognised Micheletti as president.[254] US President Barack Obama, along with leaders and officials of governments throughout the hemisphere and the rest of the world, condemned the removal of President Zelaya as undemocratic and called the action taken against him a coup d'état.
That was his first reaction, but it sizzled out very soon. Micheletti isn't important; the coup d'état led to the presidency of Pepe Lobo, who was readily accepted by the USA.
quote:
Marvin the Martian: In educational terms, the annual influx due to the birth rate is generally cancelled out by the annual efflux of older kids graduating from the system. Without any addition or subtraction due to external factors overall student numbers are effectively at "steady state".
The USA has a school population of over 50 million. I'm guessing that fluctuations of 0,1% happen within this system sometimes. You're also forgetting that children who go to school will add something to the economy later.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
The USA has a school population of over 50 million. I'm guessing that fluctuations of 0,1% happen within this system sometimes.
Across the whole country, sure. And if the immigrant children referred to in the OP were spread out across the whole country such that no more than one or two of them was at any given school then the effect would be minimal. But one suspects that that won't be the case, meaning schools in the area where they will concentrate will be inundated.
quote:
You're also forgetting that children who go to school will add something to the economy later.
Eventually, yes. And it's even possible (probable?) that over time the immigration rate will reach a "steady state" of its own with immigrant kids graduating from the system - even at the local level. The only question is how much the system will have to expand to enable that to happen.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Dave W.: Well, no. (To your last sentence, that is. I'm not denying that you lived in Honduras.)
quote:
No foreign government recognised Micheletti as president.[254] US President Barack Obama, along with leaders and officials of governments throughout the hemisphere and the rest of the world, condemned the removal of President Zelaya as undemocratic and called the action taken against him a coup d'état.
That was his first reaction, but it sizzled out very soon. Micheletti isn't important; the coup d'état led to the presidency of Pepe Lobo, who was readily accepted by the USA.
What led to his presidency was his election, and the US acceptance of that again makes the US position the same as that of practically every other country in the world.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
52,000 per year is 1,000 per week. That looks way too convenient a figure to be accurate.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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PataLeBon
Shipmate
# 5452
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Posted
Most of the children are from Honduras and El Salvador.
Costa Rica apparently has had a 700% increase in refugees lately. And Nicaragua has had an influx of children from El Salvador...
Nicaragua, who has one (if not the worst) of the worst economies of the region, has had to deal with people wanting to come in instead of leave. That has to be saying something about what is going on in the region.
We're dealing with refugees (at least for the most part) IMHO. Mexico is just going ahead and sending them north for us to deal with (not that some or most don't want to head north anyway). We need to get our heads around that in some way, and the US isn't good at dealing with the idea of people moving in en masse without some kind of communism pushing them out.
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That's between you and your god. Oh, wait a minute. You are your god. That's a problem. - Jack O'Neill (Stargate SG1)
Posts: 1907 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2004
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Dave W.: What led to his presidency was his election, and the US acceptance of that again makes the US position the same as that of practically every other country in the world.
There was a coup d'état that ousted the former president. The same people who committed the coup later organized the 'elections' that were heavily criticized —also internationally— and boycotted by many policital parties because they were done in an unconstitutional way. The US acceptance of those does constitute consent towards an illegimate regime change.
I find the idea "there were elections so it's democracy and all is ok" incredibly stupid and naïve. This position makes it really easy to get to power in an undemocratical way. Stage a coup, oust the president, your people will then organize the 'elections' and you will win. Done.
Your statement "the USA's position is that it will accept any president who has been elected" is also demonstrably false.
quote:
Marvin the Martian: Across the whole country, sure. And if the immigrant children referred to in the OP were spread out across the whole country such that no more than one or two of them was at any given school then the effect would be minimal. But one suspects that that won't be the case, meaning schools in the area where they will concentrate will be inundated.
I agree that locally it may create a logistical problem in the short term. As would any new activity. Financially, it doesn't make a dent in the US's education budget though. If it does so locally, then it means the system isn't organized well.
quote:
Marvin the Martian: The only question is how much the system will have to expand to enable that to happen.
I have to say that I'm finding difficulties in thinking about expansion of the educational system in a negative way. I'm originally from an area in the Netherlands where the population is declining and where the demographical pyramid is becoming top-heavy rather rapidly. One very visible effect of this is a reduced school population. Economically, this has a ripple effect that is quite substantial. People would thank the Lord on their bare knees if there were an expansion of the educational system.
School expansion can be a big economic opportunity at negligeable cost, especially locally in rural areas. I can also see this in Brazil, where the population isn't declining.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I'm originally from an area in the Netherlands where the population is declining and where the demographical pyramid is becoming top-heavy rather rapidly...Economically, this has a ripple effect that is quite substantial. People would thank the Lord on their bare knees if there were an expansion of the educational system.
I have read (can't find at the moment) that the only reason USA, unlike most "developed" countries, is still growing in workforce age and pre-workforce age population is immigration.
quote:
"As of 2010, about 48% of the world population lives in nations with sub-replacement fertility.
Wikipedia
quote:
..we are now exactly in the middle of perhaps the greatest demographic change in recorded history...quite suddenly in relative terms, half the people of the world have decided not to multiply.
Interesting article, especially about Japan demographics
These children might be the saviors of USA economy when they grow up, but right now the situation is distressing. Can you imagine being a stranger in a strange land/language and locked up in a drab (military) "processing facility"? As a child? Or a small city already struggling with it's budget having to build and staff an additional school?
At the Murial boatlift the immigrants were spread throughout USA and churches sponsored families to help them adjust. At the time I was told the goal was to relieve South Florida of being inundated, but this article indicates the immigrants were spread out because the Florida processing centers were over-crowded. I guess we just are not good at handling large numbers of immigrants.
Mother Jones article tracks a kid who arrived alone and lived in a shelter
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Belle Ringer: Can you imagine being a stranger in a strange land/language and locked up in a drab (military) "processing facility"? As a child?
Yes I can, because I've been in facilities like this. I hope they find better solutions than this.
quote:
Belle Ringer: Or a small city already struggling with it's budget having to build and staff an additional school?
I already acknowledged that there would be logistical problems on a local level. At least one of these can be solved easily.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Belle Ringer: Can you imagine being a stranger in a strange land/language and locked up in a drab (military) "processing facility"? As a child?
Yes I can, because I've been in facilities like this. I hope they find better solutions than this.
quote:
Belle Ringer: Or a small city already struggling with it's budget having to build and staff an additional school?
I already acknowledged that there would be logistical problems on a local level. At least one of these can be solved easily.
Probably not easily solved. In our city just a few miles from one of the detention centers, we are not caring well for the children already here. (Our church's homeless shelter turns away an average of 18 families with children per night-- even tho families w/ children are given priority in getting space). If we're not able to care effectively for children in families, we're not going to have an easy time solving the logistical problems caring and housing 1000s w/o families.
But "difficulty" is not an excuse for immorality. It will not be an easy task. It will be costly and messy and require real sacrifices. But it is the right thing to do.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
cliffdweller: Probably not easily solved.
I admit that I was playing a semantical game here. The solution is easy: give the city more budget. Finding the political will be more difficult though.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
cliffdweller: Probably not easily solved.
I admit that I was playing a semantical game here. The solution is easy: give the city more budget. Finding the political will be more difficult though.
And, to further explicate your point, if we don't have the political will to provide enough $$ to house the kids we have that are already in families, what are the odds we're going to find the political will to care for 1000s more w/o parents to care for them?
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
cliffdweller: And, to further explicate your point, if we don't have the political will to provide enough $$ to house the kids we have that are already in families, what are the odds we're going to find the political will to care for 1000s more w/o parents to care for them?
Exactly, that's the problem. When a small city already struggling with it's budget has to build and staff an additional school, the problem is political will. Not the children.
[ 16. July 2014, 18:40: Message edited by: LeRoc ]
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Exactly, that's the problem. When a small city already struggling with it's budget has to build and staff an additional school, the problem is political will. Not the children.
And speaking of triumphs of the will, I came across this bit of historically tone-deaf stupidity:
quote:
If you are familiar with the Normandy invasion of France in 1944, then you have an idea how large and logistically complicated this event will be. However, there is one difference. We are not going to the border to invade anyone. We are going there to stop an invasion.
So apparently several militia groups are planning to do some kind of armed intervention at the southern U.S. border to repel this "invasion" of children, much like the brave men who tried to repel the Normandy Invasion. Who were those guys again?
Anyone?
Anyone?
Godwin?
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Belle Ringer: I suppose USA could go do "regime change" in Central America like in Iraq? Re-government by invasion is never popular.
In my opinion, the problems in Central America have their origin not in small part by "regime changes" done by the USA in the past.
Regime change is an important factor, supported by governments of wealthy countries when it is good for business. Just as maintaining and helping brutal regimes can be good for business. The USA is the leader in doing this in the past 100 years or so. I don't know the figures, but I was sent a while ago a note that calculated how many Mexicans cross the border into the USA as caused by each tonne of corn the USA dumps into the country.
I'm seeing the immigration and economic refugee issue needing to be a whole lot worse and intense to have things shift. Probably the Mexican government (maybe others) should have the Mexicans in the USA vote for representatives directly who can then credibly discuss the issues with the Americans. Another country credibly saying that they represent citizens within America would be a worthy goal. There is ample precedent for this, with invasions by America itself into other countries based on defense of its citizens and interests. Of course even proposing this would get an interesting response within the USA.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
Seems to me that if each church took on the promise to house/foster/adopt one child, the whole 50,000 of those children would be taken care of. There are certainly more than 50, 000 churches in the US.
Or does the Christianity in those churches run so thin that they don't read their Bibles? There are more comments in the Bible about helping the stranger in your midst, probably by a factor of10, than there are about gay sex.
I offer David Henson on "The Spiritual Crisis in Immigration"
And, yeah, I am quite upset about my own government, led by a fundamentalist who has absorbed the idea that the Christian is not supposed to help (now where would that idea come from? Think Oil Patch), has mistreated or, rather, not treated at all, many refugee children. The Supreme Court has whacked him on that one; we're just waiting to see the lies about that during the next election campaign. (Oh, "bearing false witness"? What a Good Christian who finds his way around those darn Ten Commandments!
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Seems to me that if each church took on the promise to house/foster/adopt one child, the whole 50,000 of those children would be taken care of. There are certainly more than 50, 000 churches in the US.
Or does the Christianity in those churches run so thin that they don't read their Bibles? There are more comments in the Bible about helping the stranger in your midst, probably by a factor of10, than there are about gay sex.
This.
Although I'm wondering if an even better plan (with a cooperative state & federal govt-- there's a pipe dream...) would be for each church to sponsor a Central American family. These children are not orphans. They have been ripped from their homes by parents facing a nightmarish Sophie's choice of leaving them in the hands of evil do-ers close by or taking a chance on unknown coyotes. The best result would be to take the entire family on as refugees, help the parents to find work and housing here and be able to raise their children in safety.
[ 16. July 2014, 21:25: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Gramps49
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# 16378
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Posted
I will correct my statement
CAFTA is a major reason for the economic crisis hitting Central America. It has allowed companies like Cargill to dump surplus corn and wheat in these countries.
My mistake about mentioning Monsanto.
Article about US trade and policy
[URL was breaking scroll lock and bothering me -Gwai]
[ 17. July 2014, 13:13: Message edited by: Gwai ]
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
Horseman Bree is right in most ways. As a practical matter, some of the refugees are coming as families, and one would not normally want to separate siblings. There is also an issue of language.
The way it looks at present, the existing law (passed under G. W. Bush) is likely to be changed to make it easier to deport these children rapidly.
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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Raptor Eye
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# 16649
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Posted
I wonder whether 'welcome the stranger' means get rid of border controls altogether. After all, wasn't America built in the first place, and subsequently thrived, because it welcomed people who wanted to settle there, struggle as they may to do so? Is London thriving economically because one in three of its residents has settled there from elsewhere and so has the additional motivation needed to make a go of it?
ISTM that fear of losing what we have, making ourselves vulnerable, may be stronger than the love of others which makes us want to share with those who are vulnerable.
The Exodus comes to mind.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Dave W.: What led to his presidency was his election, and the US acceptance of that again makes the US position the same as that of practically every other country in the world.
There was a coup d'état that ousted the former president. The same people who committed the coup later organized the 'elections' that were heavily criticized —also internationally— and boycotted by many policital parties because they were done in an unconstitutional way. The US acceptance of those does constitute consent towards an illegimate regime change.
You still have failed to show how the US position differs from that of nearly every other country in the world. Are there, for example, any European countries that do not accept the current government of Honduras? quote:
I find the idea "there were elections so it's democracy and all is ok" incredibly stupid and naïve.
And when you find any proponents of that idea, I'm sure you'll let them know what you think. quote:
Your statement "the USA's position is that it will accept any president who has been elected" is also demonstrably false.
What's demonstrably false is your suggestion that I ever made such a statement.
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
I will correct my statement
CAFTA is a major reason for the economic crisis hitting Central America. It has allowed companies like Cargill to dump surplus corn and wheat in these countries.
My mistake about mentioning Monsanto.
magazine article
So have American grain exports, in fact, flooded the market, and has local production collapsed? The author of that article provides links for other claims, but here gives no numbers and cites no sources. I still don't see any evidence (besides simple assertion) that CAFTA is a major cause of economic trouble. For example, GDP growth in Guatemala over the last 12 years doesn't show any obvious ill effects; it actually got up to 7% in the year or so after CAFTA went into effect there, and since then (aside from a dip corresponding to the global financial crisis in 2009) hasn't been noticeably different from the rate of growth before CAFTA. If it really were such an economic disaster, I'd think it would leave some trace in statistics like these.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
I wonder whether 'welcome the stranger' means get rid of border controls altogether. After all, wasn't America built in the first place, and subsequently thrived, because it welcomed people who wanted to settle there, struggle as they may to do so?
Actually, the newest wave of immigrants has usually been resented. The American Irish for example have bitter songs about help wanted signs saying no paddy need apply.
The "why doesn't each church adopt one" argument is familiar - one periodically hears it as a solution to the homeless problem. Some churches do, many don't. Why? I don't know. I guess a lot think that's not what church is for?
Or perhaps each church is already straining their budget and volunteer base to do whatever - run a soup kitchen, or a prison ministry, or an after school tutoring program for at risk children, or nursing home visits, or building roofs and wheelchair ramps for locals in desperate need, or providing for a few people at a time housing and counseling and job training and job placement to get some local homeless on their feet.
Taking in a child or family from a different culture requires a lot of round the clock care. During the Muriel Boatlift I offered one bedroom of my two bedroom apartment but the local church making local arrangements said no, it takes full time commitment to help a family, a one person household going to work every day can't do it. they said they needed several families working together to help each immigrant or family. They were looking for office groups, not lone individuals, to adopt each newcomer.
Another problem is society has become so formal. 100 years ago you could pickup a stray child and take her home and rear her. Today you'd be arrested for not going through social services. You can't just go to a detention center and say "let me take a kid to a decent home." Maybe you should be able to, but you can't.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Another problem is society has become so formal. 100 years ago you could pickup a stray child and take her home and rear her. Today you'd be arrested for not going through social services. You can't just go to a detention center and say "let me take a kid to a decent home." Maybe you should be able to, but you can't.
Given how some children were treated then there are good reasons for that change.
Huia
[ 17. July 2014, 05:58: Message edited by: Huia ]
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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
In Britain, there has been a strong policy, in recent years, to try to rehome children with parents of a similar cultural heritage. That would be rather a problem with mass fostering / adoption.
And there is a worrying assumption, still about, that rehoming by rich or middle class parents brings advantage. Sometimes, sadly, the only difference between poor homes and 'nice' middle class ones, is that the abuse is not expected, and therefore better hidden.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Dave W.: Are there, for example, any European countries that do not accept the current government of Honduras?
Unfortunately, no. I'm sorry, I've misread your earlier post.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Dave W.: Are there, for example, any European countries that do not accept the current government of Honduras?
Unfortunately, no. I'm sorry, I've misread your earlier post.
So are you no longer arguing that "the US acceptance of those [elections] does constitute consent towards an illegitimate regime change"? Or are you simply adding practically every other country in the world to the list of those who "consent" to regime change?
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Dave W.: So are you no longer arguing that "the US acceptance of those [elections] does constitute consent towards an illegitimate regime change"? Or are you simply adding practically every other country in the world to the list of those who "consent" to regime change?
The latter. I singled out the US because that was the country we were discussing at the time.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Dave W.: So are you no longer arguing that "the US acceptance of those [elections] does constitute consent towards an illegitimate regime change"? Or are you simply adding practically every other country in the world to the list of those who "consent" to regime change?
The latter. I singled out the US because that was the country we were discussing at the time.
And USA is the most active country in seeking to impose "regime change" on others. My reference to "regime change like we did in Iraq" - how well did that work out? You'd think we'd get the message but as someone said, it's about business, and that is run these days on short term horizons.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Belle Ringer: And USA is the most active country in seeking to impose "regime change" on others. My reference to "regime change like we did in Iraq" - how well did that work out? You'd think we'd get the message but as someone said, it's about business, and that is run these days on short term horizons.
I admit that I was a bit puzzled by your earlier statement at first. Now I guess I missed the sarcasm. Sorry for that.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Dave W.: So are you no longer arguing that "the US acceptance of those [elections] does constitute consent towards an illegitimate regime change"? Or are you simply adding practically every other country in the world to the list of those who "consent" to regime change?
The latter. I singled out the US because that was the country we were discussing at the time.
But this is still absurd - or (more charitably) at the very least extremely idiosyncratic. After all, the US (along with the rest of the world) recognized the government of the Soviet Union, too - but it would be peculiar to interpret that as some kind of blanket approval of the 1917 revolution. You'll certainly surprise and impress me with your consistency, though, if it turns out you praise the US for its decades-long steadfast (if lonely and quixotic) opposition to the Cuban revolution.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
I can’t remember where I read it, but I thought that one of the major reasons for the population shift was the rise of drug cartels in Mexico and other South American countries. This was contributing to the breakdown of society there and causing the refugee crisis that is currently arriving at the US borders. Now, if those articles are right, then the US and other developed countries do bear some responsibility because they’re the primary markets that the drug cartels are serving.
The US policy doesn’t seem very different to the UK’s, Australia etc – turn them back; talk about them in the media in a way that demonises them in the eyes of the general population etc. The main difference is, as far as I can tell, that huge sections of the church are going along with that and the leadership is actively encouraging them to walk on by. I don’t think there is an easy solution to this one.
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Dave W.: After all, the US (along with the rest of the world) recognized the government of the Soviet Union, too
Let's just say I was disappointed. The crisis in Honduras happened when President Obama wast just in office and well, I had high expectations of him. I was happy when Clinton condemned the coup. But after the (in my view illegal) elections, everything seems to have sizzled down. I think that's a shame..
Yes, the US recognized the USSR government — grudgingly. But they continued to be very critical of it. Maybe this is happening with Honduras too, but I'm not seeing it.
The US has every right to be critical of the Cuban government. I have a few criticisms of them too. What I don't agree with is the economic blockade though. I'm not asking for such a blockade for Honduras either. (I don't want to go into a lengthy discussion about Cuba right now.)
In any case, I think we both agree that bringing about regime changes in Central America won't be the solution, no matter who does the bringing about. Honduras had a regime change recently, and it didn't work out well.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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