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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: All things work together for good.
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
These are emtionally reasoned thoughts, providing facile comfort and senses of elation. We have forcefully told off people who have attempted to comfort themselves at our expense with such sloppy explanations of our tragedies. I agree with Curiousity on this.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Jude
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# 3033
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Posted
Sometimes I think life would be better if I were an atheist. It would be so much simpler.
But I cannot believe that there is no god. It would be easier to believe that there weren't because this god seems to be so powerless, or just callous. But I have this feeling that won't go away, that there is a god, a God, who keeps on calling me, telling me that there's a heaven, that His kingdom will come upon earth. He has overcome death, and death is only the gate to something else.
Posts: 233 | From: A town with four parishes | Registered: Jul 2002
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ChastMastr
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# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
people who have attempted to comfort themselves at our expense
I believe it is true, but unless the circumstances are appropriate, I think it's extremely unhelpful to start going on about it to someone else who is struggling or grieving. I think our job is indeed to "mourn with those who mourn" in that case--and, again, I think it is true even on an individual level. Perhaps the key phrase is the one you use above: people attempting to comfort themselves at the expense of the person who is really hurting. If someone (who believes as I do, of course) who is grieving is able to say, "This terrible thing happened, but I trust that God is making even this work for good," that may be a level of heroic faith, but it's often damn unhelpful to say this to someone else who is struggling or just doesn't believe it.
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Jamat
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# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
people who have attempted to comfort themselves at our expense
I believe it is true, but unless the circumstances are appropriate, I think it's extremely unhelpful to start going on about it to someone else who is struggling or grieving. I think our job is indeed to "mourn with those who mourn" in that case--and, again, I think it is true even on an individual level. Perhaps the key phrase is the one you use above: people attempting to comfort themselves at the expense of the person who is really hurting. If someone (who believes as I do, of course) who is grieving is able to say, "This terrible thing happened, but I trust that God is making even this work for good," that may be a level of heroic faith, but it's often damn unhelpful to say this to someone else who is struggling or just doesn't believe it.
What you point out here is that such a belief viz that All things will work ultimately in favour of good, is really not something that someone in one circumstance should quote to another in a reduced circumstance as it is heartless and naive however well meant.
But when one is oneself in a straitened circumstance or a bind and can quote it with faith to oneself, there it can be a comfort. The battle is to believe it for oneself as part of an internalised God story based on an understanding of a loving creator/ redeemer who indeed, in the words of Julian of Norwich, ultimately, 'makes all manner of things well.'
[ 03. August 2014, 03:22: Message edited by: Jamat ]
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
Brenda. He won't wind anything back, only forward, redeeming everything from the past. For everyone. Ever. Forever. And ever.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Fineline
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# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
"All things work together for good" makes sense to me as an eschatological statement about creation as a whole. Creation has been redeemed at the Cross, and will experience at the end of all things, the glorification and sanctification by God, symbolically represented in Scripture as the New Jerusalem (Rev. 21).
When and how this happens, we may not know.
This statement however does not apply IMHO, to our individual lives. Otherwise it turns into a pollyannish and foolish optimism that is blind to genuine suffering and distress.
I agree with this. And not just with regard to suffering. I think a danger of individualising it to details of each person's life is that, taking it to its logical conclusion, you'd have to say every little thing in your life was working together for good - the fact that you decided to wear blue socks today, the fact that you had cornflakes for breakfast, or even the fact that you couldn't be bothered to do something you promised to, or that you lost your temper, etc. It becomes meaningless and potentially dangerous to apply it to individual details of our lives.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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Evensong
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# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jude:
Sometimes I think life would be better if I were an atheist. It would be so much simpler.
Sometimes I wish the opposite. That I did believe everything that happens works for good. So much easier.
But then I'd probably be a Muslim ( God's total sovereignty)
The Christian story however is different. Not everything that happens is good because creation and we ourselves are fallen.
Anglican Brat is correct:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
"All things work together for good" makes sense to me as an eschatological statement about creation as a whole. Creation has been redeemed at the Cross, and will experience at the end of all things, the glorification and sanctification by God, symbolically represented in Scripture as the New Jerusalem (Rev. 21).
When and how this happens, we may not know.
This statement however does not apply IMHO, to our individual lives. Otherwise it turns into a pollyannish and foolish optimism that is blind to genuine suffering and distress.
Sometimes suffering can be good. It helps us develop and change things. Other times it is simply bad and not part of God's plan at all.
That, IMO is what the verses in the same chapter is saying.
Romans 8:38-39 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Shit happens sometimes. But it doesn't mean it's God's punishment. It doesn't mean you deserve it or need it. It just is.
And God still loves you through it all.
But only at the end of the age in the new creation will all be well and all manner of things be well.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
Has anyone ever read Corrie ten Boom's memoir 'The Hiding Place', about a Dutch family that was caught hiding Jews during WW2? I often think about this book when this topic comes up. Corrie had a sister who firmly believed that even a concentration camp could offer perfect opportunities for God's will to be done. But for the rest of us, to suggest the same thing would somehow seem scandalous.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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ChastMastr
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# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
I think a danger of individualising it to details of each person's life is that, taking it to its logical conclusion, you'd have to say every little thing in your life was working together for good - the fact that you decided to wear blue socks today, the fact that you had cornflakes for breakfast, or even the fact that you couldn't be bothered to do something you promised to, or that you lost your temper, etc. It becomes meaningless and potentially dangerous to apply it to individual details of our lives.
I don't agree--and critically I don't see how that makes it untrue. God can bring good out of all of those things, but that doesn't mean it will necessarily be fun for us (such as bringing good out of our sins). What He will do about the blue socks or cornflakes, I have no idea, but since He's the God not only of humans and galaxies and archangels but of atoms and smaller, I trust He knows what He's doing re the cornflakes. Perhaps each Cheerio is a wee galaxy that we know nothing of until the New Creation... ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
I don't agree--and critically I don't see how that makes it untrue. God can bring good out of all of those things, but that doesn't mean it will necessarily be fun for us (such as bringing good out of our sins).
How it makes what untrue? I don't think the verse is untrue - but my interpretation of it is similar to Anglican Brat's idea that it is describing a wider perspective than individual details of our life. Not that God can't bring good out of all kinds of details like my scratching my nose, or having a haircut, or eating a packet of crisps, but to my understanding those things aren't what God is concerned about, and are not what this verse is about - those things can tick along on their own just fine, but I think the verse is about the wider perspective, and doesn't literally mean every individual little thing that happens.
I agree that God can work good out of negative things, and that it can be difficult for us. Saying that the verse isn't about every single tiny detail in each of our lives isn't the same as saying that God can't and doesn't work good out of painful things.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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ChastMastr
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# 716
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Posted
I suppose how focused God is on the tiny things is something we can disagree on without problem, LOL. I suppose I think of it as being like the fall of the sparrow or hairs on one's head being numbered, only down to (and beyond) every nanosecond of all of time and every quark (and beyond) of all of space and ... anything else out there. I believe that atom #934065903746589734653289756324897562a in the center of an undiscovered planet whose star went nova before the dawn of mankind groans in travail with the rest of creation for the new world to come, and that God loves it as well...
(I know, I'm weird.) ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
I suppose how focused God is on the tiny things is something we can disagree on without problem, LOL.
Yes, I was thinking the same. I suspect it's a case of the blind men describing the elephant - we can never have a complete view of how God's mind works and what he is doing. It's all using human analogy.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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Jamat
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# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Has anyone ever read Corrie ten Boom's memoir 'The Hiding Place', about a Dutch family that was caught hiding Jews during WW2? I often think about this book when this topic comes up. Corrie had a sister who firmly believed that even a concentration camp could offer perfect opportunities for God's will to be done. But for the rest of us, to suggest the same thing would somehow seem scandalous.
I know that book well as I used to teach it to year 10s. It is interesting that of the two sisters, Betsie had the stronger faith and Corrie was the survivor. The finding of God in the midst of evil is sublimely illustrated there. Thank you for bringing that up.
Regarding the small things. Jesus tells us in the gospels that God is aware of the fall of a sparrow and also that the hairs on our heads are all numbered.
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Has anyone ever read Corrie ten Boom's memoir 'The Hiding Place', about a Dutch family that was caught hiding Jews during WW2? I often think about this book when this topic comes up. Corrie had a sister who firmly believed that even a concentration camp could offer perfect opportunities for God's will to be done. But for the rest of us, to suggest the same thing would somehow seem scandalous.
I have read that book quite some years ago, and yes, it would be scandalous for the rest of us to suggest what Corrie's sister does. It comes across fine in the book because it is the sister reporting that viewpoint so it's less cloying than if the narrator preached it PLUS and this is the big thing, Corrie and her sister risked their lives and more by hiding and helping Jewish families and they were sentenced to time in Concentration camps, so yeah they can say what they like about moral courage and suffering and people should listen.
Unless you've walked the talk though you should keep your mouth shut and just help where you can and weep with those who weep.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Has anyone ever read Corrie ten Boom's memoir 'The Hiding Place', about a Dutch family that was caught hiding Jews during WW2? I often think about this book when this topic comes up. Corrie had a sister who firmly believed that even a concentration camp could offer perfect opportunities for God's will to be done. But for the rest of us, to suggest the same thing would somehow seem scandalous.
I have read that book quite some years ago, and yes, it would be scandalous for the rest of us to suggest what Corrie's sister does. It comes across fine in the book because it is the sister reporting that viewpoint so it's less cloying than if the narrator preached it PLUS and this is the big thing, Corrie and her sister risked their lives and more by hiding and helping Jewish families and they were sentenced to time in Concentration camps, so yeah they can say what they like about moral courage and suffering and people should listen.
Unless you've walked the talk though you should keep your mouth shut and just help where you can and weep with those who weep.
Agreed. Well said.
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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