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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: traditional Christianity = sex
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
There may be some Christians who do not conform to the world, but I think there are plenty who do. Some of the Christians who live near me, seem to have a sort of gentrified Christian faith, which presumably accords with their Lexus, their private schools, their use of banks loans and so on. Is this all Biblical?
Are you saying it's unbiblical to have money?
Biblical Christianity is essentially a religion of the poor and oppressed. Quetzalcoatl's example shows Christians being rich and oppressors. Seems to be very un-Biblical and conforming to the world to me.
So being rich automatically = being oppressive?
Sounds more like marxism to me.
I reject it.
I am not rich - far from it!
I am not oppressed.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
# 15351
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Posted
For the record, I wasn't saying "the church" is homophobic, I was responding to what the average person in the street perceives. Most of which comes from media (pro and social) content which is at best blunt in its approach, and at worst downright misleading and destructive.
Speaking of local experience I regularly have conversations along the lines of "You're alright, but 'The Church' is XYZ" where You're is Street Pastors and The Church is the person's conception of church born not out of experience but out of a social miasma.
And if you're going to bang the drum for the SA, you should pay heed to how often that clip about the bloke in Australia comes around on social media. I see it in different areas a good two or three times a year. Doesn't matter that it was a mis-representation and out of context, people at large have a major downer on the SA and paint with a very broad brush ...
So yeah, if you say "Traditional Christian" then IME people are going to think a bit sexist, not so keen on teh GayZ, behind the times, out of touch, and a wee bit up your own arse with self-righteousness. They are not going to think a bang-on social action superhero lovin' on the Jesus freak maaaaaaaaaaan
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Vain witterings :-: Vain pretentions :-: The Dog's Blog(locks)
Posts: 1399 | From: just north of That London | Registered: Dec 2009
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Snags:
And if you're going to bang the drum for the SA, you should pay heed to how often that clip about the bloke in Australia comes around on social media. I see it in different areas a good two or three times a year. Doesn't matter that it was a mis-representation and out of context, people at large have a major downer on the SA and paint with a very broad brush ...
Yeah, that bloke was a nightmare. But then, how many people have said stuff that is now 'out there' which would have been forgotten about or unheard in the pre-media days?
I interviewed a prominent clergy person privately who was involved in sensitive ecumenical relationships. What this Anglican said to me, in private, about his opinion of Roman Catholic practice, could have blown the entire ecumenical scene in that city sky high. But of course I have never divulged it, and of course, he continued in public to work extremely well and cordially with his Roman catholic oppo.
Sometimes what we say does not fully reflect the reality or wider activity we are actually involved with.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
There may be some Christians who do not conform to the world, but I think there are plenty who do. Some of the Christians who live near me, seem to have a sort of gentrified Christian faith, which presumably accords with their Lexus, their private schools, their use of banks loans and so on. Is this all Biblical?
Are you saying it's unbiblical to have money?
I'm asking if those things I described show someone conforming to the world, which is the phrase you used. It strikes me that they are, and that plenty of Christians find a nice niche within capitalism. How is this not conforming?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
There may be some Christians who do not conform to the world, but I think there are plenty who do. Some of the Christians who live near me, seem to have a sort of gentrified Christian faith, which presumably accords with their Lexus, their private schools, their use of banks loans and so on. Is this all Biblical?
Are you saying it's unbiblical to have money?
I'm asking if those things I described show someone conforming to the world, which is the phrase you used. It strikes me that they are, and that plenty of Christians find a nice niche within capitalism. How is this not conforming?
Conforming to the world is what happens when as well as 'having' money, one starts to 'love' it.
I have a thousand times more money that someone in Africa. Am I suddenly not a Christian because I have a fridge and food in it?
What do you want me to do, live without it in solidarity with an African in a township? Or shall I just send it over there?
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
There may be some Christians who do not conform to the world, but I think there are plenty who do. Some of the Christians who live near me, seem to have a sort of gentrified Christian faith, which presumably accords with their Lexus, their private schools, their use of banks loans and so on. Is this all Biblical?
Are you saying it's unbiblical to have money?
Biblical Christianity is essentially a religion of the poor and oppressed. Quetzalcoatl's example shows Christians being rich and oppressors. Seems to be very un-Biblical and conforming to the world to me.
So being rich automatically = being oppressive?
Sounds more like marxism to me.
I reject it.
I am not rich - far from it!
I am not oppressed.
I did not say you were rich, did I?
Being rich does put you in a position of privilege (in the sociological sense) which is a position of oppression. That's not Marxism, that's how society works.
Christianity at its birth was a religion of the poor and oppressed. I don't see how you can say that's not true?
Edited to add that you have a deeply, deeply inaccurate view of Marxism.
[ 02. August 2014, 20:28: Message edited by: Jade Constable ]
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Unfortunately, we're all 'oppressors' here, in the sense that we're benefiting from a political and financial system that depends on other people having less than we do, even if we don't drive a Lexus, etc.
If everyone lived like an average American we'd need to multiply the Earth by four to manage it. If everyone lived like the average person in France we'd need to multiply it by two and a half:
http://www.popsci.com/environment/article/2012-10/daily-infographic-if-everyone-lived-american-how-many-earths-would-we-need
As for the link in the OP, it's not terribly original, is it?
But obviously we're in an oppressive position - the point isn't to make ourselves not oppressors (usually not possible on an individual level), the point is to try to change the system and at least be aware of the ways in which we can lessen our oppression.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
There may be some Christians who do not conform to the world, but I think there are plenty who do. Some of the Christians who live near me, seem to have a sort of gentrified Christian faith, which presumably accords with their Lexus, their private schools, their use of banks loans and so on. Is this all Biblical?
Are you saying it's unbiblical to have money?
I'm asking if those things I described show someone conforming to the world, which is the phrase you used. It strikes me that they are, and that plenty of Christians find a nice niche within capitalism. How is this not conforming?
Conforming to the world is what happens when as well as 'having' money, one starts to 'love' it.
I have a thousand times more money that someone in Africa. Am I suddenly not a Christian because I have a fridge and food in it?
What do you want me to do, live without it in solidarity with an African in a township? Or shall I just send it over there?
Talking about 'Africa' as a homogenous mass and 'Africans' as if they're all destitute victims is incredibly racist. Many, many Africans are wealthy and successful in a worldly sense, and many African countries are flourishing financially. Please stop othering Africa.
Also, if you have all the things quetzalcoatl mentions and are not using them for others, or are not getting rid of them, how is that not loving money? Funny how Jesus speaks literally in your version of the Bible except for the parts where He commands you to give up monetary possessions and wealth, and those parts where all the church and the apostles lived in common.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
There may be some Christians who do not conform to the world, but I think there are plenty who do. Some of the Christians who live near me, seem to have a sort of gentrified Christian faith, which presumably accords with their Lexus, their private schools, their use of banks loans and so on. Is this all Biblical?
That seems a perculiarly rural England thing to me, "More tea Vicar?" and all that kind of stuff.
Um, not many people in rural England driving Lexuses - Land Rovers and Volvos more like. Have you actually ever been to rural England? You seem to have a very inaccurate view of it ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
So being rich automatically = being oppressive?
It is presumably for some reason that it's easier for a camel to get through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into the kingdom of heaven.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
There may be some Christians who do not conform to the world, but I think there are plenty who do. Some of the Christians who live near me, seem to have a sort of gentrified Christian faith, which presumably accords with their Lexus, their private schools, their use of banks loans and so on. Is this all Biblical?
That seems a perculiarly rural England thing to me, "More tea Vicar?" and all that kind of stuff.
Um, not many people in rural England driving Lexuses - Land Rovers and Volvos more like. Have you actually ever been to rural England? You seem to have a very inaccurate view of it
Yes, I have been there. I was born in England and lived there for many years before I moved to live among my mother's kin.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I wonder what swivel eyed left wing loon said that Dafyd?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
Discussion of homophobia/discrimination against gays/whether anti-gay church policies exist or are unjust BELONGS IN DEAD HORSES. There should be no more discussion of these issues on this thread.
![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) Mea culpa!!
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
There may be some Christians who do not conform to the world, but I think there are plenty who do. Some of the Christians who live near me, seem to have a sort of gentrified Christian faith, which presumably accords with their Lexus, their private schools, their use of banks loans and so on. Is this all Biblical?
Are you saying it's unbiblical to have money?
I'm asking if those things I described show someone conforming to the world, which is the phrase you used. It strikes me that they are, and that plenty of Christians find a nice niche within capitalism. How is this not conforming?
Conforming to the world is what happens when as well as 'having' money, one starts to 'love' it.
I have a thousand times more money that someone in Africa. Am I suddenly not a Christian because I have a fridge and food in it?
What do you want me to do, live without it in solidarity with an African in a township? Or shall I just send it over there?
I don't want you to do anything. I am just disputing your previous claim that Christians do not conform to the world. I expect some of them do not, but in my experience, a lot of them do. I grew up in a very poor area, with very few religious people. Then I went to a very posh public school, with lots of wealthy kids, and hello, there were quite a lot of Christians, and their dads were doing very nicely thank you very much. How is this not conforming to the world?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Excatly q. Mudfrog? By having a narrow, patriarchal, inhumane, homophobic, sexual 'morality'? That's being holy? That's what we've got to offer? That's the difference Jesus died for?
[ 02. August 2014, 23:00: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Jade Constable wrote:
Funny how Jesus speaks literally in your version of the Bible except for the parts where He commands you to give up monetary possessions and wealth, and those parts where all the church and the apostles lived in common.
Don't right-wing Christians positively revel in capitalism, and in the US, for example, helped the election of G. W. Bush? How the hell is this not conforming to the world?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Most of the Christians I know and have known in congregations for over 35 years, by a LONG margin, 95%, are afflicted with helpless, useless privilege. And have NOTHING to offer. Yes they are 'holy' in that regard from the poor.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
“If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition and then admit that we just don't want to do it.”
Stephen Colbert.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Tsk, tsk, quetzalcoatl. You are forgetting the 1st letter of Paul to the Thatcherites.*
"And I say to you,
you may ignore previous scriptures
regarding the poor.
For these are obviously not meant to apply
to you.
For, in your righteousness, you are rich on the
backs of the poor in their sin.
That this is so is obvious, for if they were
righteous,
they would not be poor. QED."
*New Monetary Edition, Reagan translation.
[ 02. August 2014, 23:58: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I am [disputing the] claim that Christians do not conform to the world. I expect some of them do not, but in my experience, a lot of them do. I grew up in a very poor area, with very few religious people. Then I went to a very posh public school, with lots of wealthy kids, and hello, there were quite a lot of Christians, and their dads were doing very nicely thank you very much. How is this not conforming to the world?
The confusing thing is that Christians created the very 'world' that some people now want them to reject. The Protestant worth ethic, anyone?
Perhaps the only thing for Christians to be counter-cultural about really is sex these days. Everything else has been tried - wealth, poverty, bourgeois respectability; but Christianity is the victim of its own success, and every new attempt to be live a counter-cultural life is targeted by powerful forces, assimilated and rendered harmless.
And let's be honest: churches swallow up money. Poverty might be noble, but almost every church I know could do with a multi-millionaire benefactor.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
The confusing thing is that Christians created the very 'world' that some people now want them to reject. The Protestant worth ethic, anyone?
People who were adherents of some form of Christianity helped make the world as it is--that doesn't mean it was "Christian" in the genuine sense. Surely people aren't defending the Protestant work ethic?
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Tsk, tsk, quetzalcoatl. You are forgetting the 1st letter of Paul to the Thatcherites.*
"And I say to you,
you may ignore previous scriptures
regarding the poor.
For these are obviously not meant to apply
to you.
For, in your righteousness, you are rich on the
backs of the poor in their sin.
That this is so is obvious, for if they were
righteous,
they would not be poor. QED."
*New Monetary Edition, Reagan translation.
Preach it, sister!
For unto the seventh generation, the high interest savings account must be protected from the greedy workers, wanting higher wages or (gasp) health insurance.
May the Lord bless leveraged buyouts, and short selling of stock, for these are truly signs of the kingdom!
Christians must not conform to the world, which is full of nasty left-wing secularists; rather it must conform to the stock market and the rising arc of prosperity!
Praise Jesus, and I have to phone my broker.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
Isn't it interesting that it's the 'rich, middle-class Christians' that you despise sooooo much that make up the churches in the UK?
And is it no interesting that most of the community work done in this country - from mother and toddler groups, lunch clubs through to food banks - all done in churches, by Christians?
And isn't it interesting that the people most likely to give to charity are Christians?
And isn't it interesting that the people who give most money per head are...yes, Christians?
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Isn't it interesting that it's the 'rich, middle-class Christians' that you despise sooooo much that make up the churches in the UK?
And is it no interesting that most of the community work done in this country - from mother and toddler groups, lunch clubs through to food banks - all done in churches, by Christians?
And isn't it interesting that the people most likely to give to charity are Christians?
And isn't it interesting that the people who give most money per head are...yes, Christians?
So how's your claim holding up that Christians are not conformed to the world? You seem to be deflecting attention from this quite cleverly, so well done there. Heaven forbid that you might have to say that you were wrong!
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Isn't it interesting that nobody knows?
Isn't it interesting that everyone knows that Christians have a quaint, narrow, excluding, hypocritical, holier-than-thou attitude to sexuality?
Isn't it interesting that Christians claim to be more generous, more socially aware, more fair, more honest, more just, more righteous than non?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Isn't that insane, obscene, risible delusion interesting?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
This doesn't sound like you. Are you being sarcastic? Or are you saying its best we rid ourselves of the delusion that western civilisation is still Christian?
The latter. Our civilisation has been running on that pretence for centuries. If there ever was a good reason for that, its due by date has now long passed.
So the future of the church is what for you?
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
So how's your claim holding up that Christians are not conformed to the world? You seem to be deflecting attention from this quite cleverly, so well done there. Heaven forbid that you might have to say that you were wrong!
The "world" in Christian jargon is not simply the (social) environment. What is meant there is a systemic, external challenge to Christianity. Just like the "flesh" is not the meat on our bones, but a systemic, internal challenge to Christianity. The "world" in Christ's days were the Romans and Greeks in their pagan cultures, and in a different but at least as threatening sense, the Pharisees and Sadduccees and the Temple hierarchy in their corrupted Jewish culture.
The "world" these days in the West is likewise on one hand the neo-pagan "post-Christians" that are inoculated against the gospel, and on the other hand the liberal, cafeteria, "practical charity is the only thing that matters" Christians that are, well, you, Martin and most of SoF. You are hence quite right, most Christians are conformed to the world. Most Christians are like you now. And Mr Dreher is quite right, one of the best ways to ferret out such worldy Christians is to see whether they aid and abet the neo-pagans in redefining good sexuality as hedonism with consent. Another good way is to check whether they have forgotten the spiritual works of mercy over the corporal ones (or indeed, if they even know what I'm talking about there).
In theory at least, as we build the Kingdom Christianity just becomes the (social) environment and the world is driven back. In practice, we are nowhere near that yet. And no, that's not simply proven by the continued presence of "the poor". The poor, as a wise man once said, will always be with us. It's not the economy, stupid.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
The confusing thing is that Christians created the very 'world' that some people now want them to reject. The Protestant worth ethic, anyone?
People who were adherents of some form of Christianity helped make the world as it is--that doesn't mean it was "Christian" in the genuine sense. Surely people aren't defending the Protestant work ethic?
I suppose many people would defend it, up to a point. At any rate, there seems to be little clear enunciation of the alternatives.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
IngoB
Fair enough, although describing me in terms of 'practical charity is the only thing that matters' is rather peculiar, since I am fairly allergic to most charities. I also don't really see good sexuality as hedonism; however, these are 'fresh woods and pastures new' perhaps.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Fair enough, although describing me in terms of 'practical charity is the only thing that matters' is rather peculiar, since I am fairly allergic to most charities. I also don't really see good sexuality as hedonism; however, these are 'fresh woods and pastures new' perhaps.
Sorry, I wasn't trying to squeeze you into shoes that do not fit. My point was merely that many Christians now wear these sort of shoes, and that one can very well see that - rather than Western middle class status or other socio-economic privilege - as "the world".
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Isn't it interesting that it's the 'rich, middle-class Christians' that you despise sooooo much that make up the churches in the UK?
And is it no interesting that most of the community work done in this country - from mother and toddler groups, lunch clubs through to food banks - all done in churches, by Christians?
And isn't it interesting that the people most likely to give to charity are Christians?
And isn't it interesting that the people who give most money per head are...yes, Christians?
No, actually it isn't. First, most merely means greatest number. We've had this discussion here, and the gap isn't that great.
Second, in a country that is nominally more Christian than any other philosophy, the numbers don't necessarily mean what you are representing they do.
Third, some of those Christian givers are buying their stairway to Heaven, and so do not represent any moral superiority.
Isn't it interesting that a significant figure in a Christianity had [url= http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesson_of_the_widow's_mite]something to contribute[/url] on this very subject?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I am in a holy, sacred, sacramental marriage and the gay couple at church, sorry cafe today are just hedonists.
That's what Jesus said.
Justice, righteousness IS economics. It's ALL economics.
[ 03. August 2014, 14:17: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I know quite a few pagans and also sort of New Age rag, tag and bobtails, and their attitude to sex is not really in terms of hedonism. In fact, it is all a bit solemn, all about soul-meetings, and so on, which makes me laugh a bit; my working class roots start to show through the dye.
But maybe some Christians are neo-pagans and see sex as hedonism, I don't know really.
Anyone for tennis?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
You are hence quite right, most Christians are conformed to the world. Most Christians are like you now. And Mr Dreher is quite right, one of the best ways to ferret out such worldy Christians is to see whether they aid and abet the neo-pagans in redefining good sexuality as hedonism with consent. Another good way is to check whether they have forgotten the spiritual works of mercy over the corporal ones (or indeed, if they even know what I'm talking about there).
In theory at least, as we build the Kingdom Christianity just becomes the (social) environment and the world is driven back. In practice, we are nowhere near that yet. And no, that's not simply proven by the continued presence of "the poor". The poor, as a wise man once said, will always be with us. It's not the economy, stupid.
Hmm. Pope Frank has hammered pretty hard on the economy. But then you've said before that he's wrong about a lot of things.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
That's what Jesus said. Justice, righteousness IS economics. It's ALL economics.
Jesus Christ and Karl Marx had a similar hair style, but they are not the same person.
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Hmm. Pope Frank has hammered pretty hard on the economy. But then you've said before that he's wrong about a lot of things.
Indeed. Just for clarity, by US standards I'm a socialist bordering on communist as far as economics goes. I think the German "social market economy" has grown far too market and too little social. The new economy that I would like to see trialled is distributism and I think the best reason for world government is so that the multinationals can be controlled properly instead of playing government against government. I'm no friend of unbridled capitalism or the prosperity gospel, at all.
But in fact we do not need a particular emphasis on "helping the poor" right now. One of the things that our neo-pagan neighbours have carried over from their Christian roots is that helping the poor is a social standard. Christians are not special, because our societies are pretty special that way. Yes, of course, we could do ten times more. But we could also do ten times less, and we are doing a lot actually. Indeed, most of what used to be charity is by now simply law of the land, at least in Europe. Something like unemployment benefits is actually instituted charity. People have just forgotten how utterly remarkable it is to pay someone who is not working, just so they don't become destitute. Etc. Can we do better than we do now? Sure. But it is improving a pretty high standard, we are not at all as shit as people seem to think. And that people die in Africa of hunger is not proof against that, quite to the contrary. That we all know about that and feel compelled to care is proof positive just how ingrained charity has become in formerly Christian lands.
What we do lack however is religion, worship, spirituality, a sense of God and His presence in the world. We lack a sense of spiritual belonging, and definitely a sense of spiritual duty. Well, I would have to think much longer to say exactly what we are missing, it's not actually that simple. But I'm pretty sure that "practical charity" is not the number one concern there. And yes, the current pope is in my opinion more part of the problem than of the solution...
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I find it odd that you hammer so much on the neo-pagans, even up to the point of considering them a threat. To me they are a slightly quaint little group with no real influence, that's all.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
But in fact we do not need a particular emphasis on "helping the poor" right now.
Unfortunately from this point of view, Germany is not the entire world. In America, we do indeed need an emphasis on helping the poor, as people calling themselves Christians replace Christ's emphasis on the poor with Ayn Rand's spite for the poor. It's growing like a cancer, as compared to, say, homosexuality, which is holding pretty steady.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Marx' failure was in not loving his class enemies. Not that they were his class of course. I do love his hypocrisy. He was faithless to his beautiful, loyal wife except that he was determined that they should retire to Eastbourne or somesuch so that she could be surrounded the right sort of person.
So the average Jew was a longhair?
And when does a schismatic heretic become a cafeteria neo-pagan?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
The original post had to do with Christianity and sex (reality, public perception, etc.). The discussion has turned into Christianity and money. What does that say about the Shipmates participating in the discussion?
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I find it odd that you hammer so much on the neo-pagans, even up to the point of considering them a threat. To me they are a slightly quaint little group with no real influence, that's all.
Sorry, I guess that was misleading. I tend to forget that there are people who are seriously trying to revive some kind of pagan religion. For me the real "neo-pagans" are simply the post-Christians apathetics that you will meet everywhere in the West. They are not pagan in the sense of actively reconstructing a pagan religion, but by passively defaulting back to something that starts to resemble more the pre-Christian Greco-Roman culture. (A culture, BTW, that had many virtues... as well as many vices.)
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
The original post had to do with Christianity and sex (reality, public perception, etc.). The discussion has turned into Christianity and money. What does that say about the Shipmates participating in the discussion?
The original post had to do with how you can tell, looking at a group, whether they are holding fast to the core of the traditional Christian religion. The person cited thought it was your attitude about sex. Some of us think it's your attitude about money, in part because of the horrific things people are saying about the poor, all in the name of Christianity.
What does that say about us? That we see Christians with distinctly non-Christian attitudes towards money, and think it is a worse witness for the Church than Christians with lenient attitudes towards gay sex.
But surely you can see this, and are asking some other question?
[ 03. August 2014, 20:23: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
We were traditional today. We said the creed. Took communion. We weren't as creedal as yow or as sacramental I know IngoB. Mere parodies of real Christians I know. Aping. The talk ... hang on, I'm going to pour a Glen Moray on ICE, blasphemy for a single malt I know, but NON AGED Glen Moray, I ask you ... was on Leviticus ... and what being holy means. Sacred. Sacramental. People of God. Different. In a society where the poor are being GROUND TO DUST by our Sodomite goverment, literally to the gutter, homeless, ruined from hardship, dragged in to court to pay more council tax after being thrown out of their homes for having too many rooms.
So fuck the obscenity of meaningless holiness, helpless privilege other than making that right.
And I had to clean that up IngoB as the original was a tad ad hominem.
[ 03. August 2014, 21:11: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
Martin, explicitly referring to a deleted ad hominem comment is tantamount to making it. If you're going to stick with the Glen Moray, hold off the posting before more trouble brews is my advice.
/hosting
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Mr. Host. Sir. Noted. With my unreserved apology.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
The "world" these days in the West is likewise on one hand the neo-pagan "post-Christians" that are inoculated against the gospel
The neo-pagans are frankly a much tinier minority than any group of churchgoers. And I honestly believe we Christians of whatever stripe have a lot more in common with neo-pagans than we do with, say, atheists or other anti-supernaturalists.
quote:
and on the other hand the liberal, cafeteria, "practical charity is the only thing that matters" Christians
If this were really dominant, apart from various specifically theological matters, I think life would be vastly better for everyone than it currently is.
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
At any rate, there seems to be little clear enunciation of the alternatives.
Then we need to do a better job. At least in the US there's a terrifying situation with the attitude of Ayn Rand under the guise of the Christian church.
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Pope Frank has hammered pretty hard on the economy.
Speaking of Christians doing a better job, ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif) Pope Francis.
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
In America, we do indeed need an emphasis on helping the poor, as people calling themselves Christians replace Christ's emphasis on the poor with Ayn Rand's spite for the poor.
Heh. I hadn't actually read this post before starting my big response one here, so the "Randism in the name of Christ" is not merely my own perception...
quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
The original post had to do with Christianity and sex (reality, public perception, etc.). The discussion has turned into Christianity and money. What does that say about the Shipmates participating in the discussion?
Something good, I would hope, though talking and doing are two different things, and thread drift is perhaps not a great thing.
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
So fuck the obscenity of meaningless holiness, helpless privilege other than making that right.
Glen Moray or no Glen Moray (what is that, a carnivorous eel that lives in Scottish forests?),
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
and on the other hand the liberal, cafeteria, "practical charity is the only thing that matters" Christians
I deny that any such exist. This is a straw man.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
The original post had to do with Christianity and sex (reality, public perception, etc.). The discussion has turned into Christianity and money. What does that say about the Shipmates participating in the discussion?
The original post had to do with how you can tell, looking at a group, whether they are holding fast to the core of the traditional Christian religion. The person cited thought it was your attitude about sex. Some of us think it's your attitude about money, in part because of the horrific things people are saying about the poor, all in the name of Christianity.
What does that say about us? That we see Christians with distinctly non-Christian attitudes towards money, and think it is a worse witness for the Church than Christians with lenient attitudes towards gay sex.
But surely you can see this, and are asking some other question?
Unfortunately, it is quite true that historically orthodox Christians of all traditions are increasingly primarily identified by their opposition to changing sexual mores, but that is not their fault.
They are merely sticking with what all Christendom believed until a few decades ago, and what vast swathes of Christians continue to believe not just in the West, but also overwhelmingly out in the Two-Thirds World where most Christians live.
Those facts don’t say anything one way or the other about whether the changes in sexual morality are good or bad, right or wrong, (that is DH territory), but they remind us that a culture and its media which are currently obsessed with such issues are going to view traditional Christianity with somewhat of a tunnel vision.
The contrary is true of conservative Christians, most of whom, apart from a few individuals and organizations preoccupied with the topic of sexual morality, do not see it as central and dominating in their personal and corporate Christian life.
As Muddy commented near the beginning of the thread, most of the Christians he knows don’t spend their time talking about it, and the same is true for me – I discuss it on the Ship, but in my sizeable (400 including kids) evangelical church, such matters are very rarely mentioned, and usually in the form of just a passing reference, because it is as taken for granted as the Trinity, and therefore as unlikely to be questioned.
On the subject of money, all Western Christians - theologically conservative and liberal, economically socialist and capitalist - fall short of Christ’s radical demands at a personal level, and therefore are in no position to adopt a holier-than-thou, pharisaical attitude toward any other Christian.
I myself support a soft-socialist, welfare-state position, but I would not be arrogant enough to dogmatise that this is necessarily morally or theologically superior to a more libertarian, minimal-state position, which can also be supported scripturally.
Anyone who criticizes Christianity on the grounds that some Christians don’t want as much state interventionn as they do, or that no Western Christian sells all their goods and gives them to the poor, should be advised to go away and implement the Sermon on the Mount literally themselves, at a personal level, if they think it is such a desirable ideal, before they denigrate Christians for failing to do so.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Of course it's obviously theologically superior. It does what Christianity otherwise failed to do, led almost invariably by radical Christians in the first half of the last century.
Judgement begins at the house of God.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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