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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Anglicanism
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jenn.:
I'm an ordinand at theological college. The people here are varied, mostly middle class (ish) but with a number who don't fit straightforwardly into that grouping. Training probably makes you more middle class. There are people who have struggled with each of the things Jade C mentioned, with the possible exception of homelessness. I see a reasonable amount of variety going into ordained ministry even from one residential college (out of a dozen or so, plus plenty of regional non residential places which are, I'm told, hugely more varied). I don't see this variety further up the hierarchy, and I do pray that that will change in time.
A major issue in English Anglicanism is that bishops are appointed, not elected, as they are in many other Anglican churches. If you wanted a system to give jobs-to-the-boys, you couldn't design better if you tried.
Again skirting around a DH, much of Canterbury's incomprehension at Gene Robinson's election was down to this difference in process & culture. Why couldn't those bloody Episcopalians just quietly force him out, as England did to Jeffrey John? How could the Presiding Bishop fail to see that he was no company man?
Posts: 1112 | Registered: Mar 2010
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
It also cuts both ways: how many people from blue collar backgrounds want to be ordained? Some would if they were given more encouragement and resources, but if you don't come from a background where education is emphasized, a few years studying theology and ancient Greek isn't the easiest sell!
Why study Greek as a compulsory course? There's plenty of good and accessible resources around if you need them. Some of them free and on line.
[code]
[ 07. August 2014, 06:03: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
A lot of the access courses are funded as HE courses now though, so while they're expensive they're not upfront costly. The bigger issue is that if you're not used to the system it's a daunting minefield to navigate, doubly so if the reason you've been out of education is linked to your mental health or learning disability.
Very true, although this is a separate issue to economic and cultural background. (Admittedly class factors into it.)
It also cuts both ways: how many people from blue collar backgrounds want to be ordained? Some would if they were given more encouragement and resources, but if you don't come from a background where education is emphasized, a few years studying theology and ancient Greek isn't the easiest sell!
I'm not sure characterising blue-collar/working class backgrounds as not emphasizing education is very fair. In many cases, education is emphasized and it's the education system which works against that. I saw it all the time when living in hostels.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Why study Greek as a compulsory course? There's plenty of good and accessible resources around if you need them. Some of them free and on line.
As ordained ministers are responsible for interpreting the Bible for their congregation, if they don't know any Greek (and, preferably, Hebrew), they're wholly reliant on others. It's not their interpretation.
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I'm not sure characterising blue-collar/working class backgrounds as not emphasizing education is very fair. In many cases, education is emphasized and it's the education system which works against that. I saw it all the time when living in hostels.
Of course many do, but we were talking about people who came from a working class background who couldn't access education and training without extensive help. Someone who's a successful autodidact would already be well on their way.
People also emphasize education for different reasons. Many from a middle class background don't value education for its own sake, but as a means to an end.
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Why study Greek as a compulsory course? There's plenty of good and accessible resources around if you need them. Some of them free and on line.
As ordained ministers are responsible for interpreting the Bible for their congregation, if they don't know any Greek (and, preferably, Hebrew), they're wholly reliant on others. It's not their interpretation.
Wholeheartedly agree - and I think is sad that manyseminaries no longer insist on either language.
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Why study Greek as a compulsory course? There's plenty of good and accessible resources around if you need them. Some of them free and on line.
As ordained ministers are responsible for interpreting the Bible for their congregation, if they don't know any Greek (and, preferably, Hebrew), they're wholly reliant on others. It's not their interpretation.
Wholeheartedly agree - and I think is sad that manyseminaries no longer insist on either language.
One of the great historical strengths of the Church of Scotland was in how its clergy, many of whom came from desperately poor backgrounds, worked without stinting on learning the biblical languages. Even now, some of the most dedicated scholars I know came from underprivileged (and a few whose upbringing was in circumstances of oppression) backgrounds and whose love for learning overcame limitations. Cracking down on the Greek and Hebrew helps the cleric enter into the mind of that period, and transcend the boundaries of our own time, and thus equip them to do the prophetic and teaching sides of their job (PS-- it doesn't always work, but it is a help).
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Are there countries where the state authorities have some role in the appointment of RC Bishops, CL? I think that in Alsace and Lorrraine (where the French laicisation legislation of 1905 never applied), the French government has some kind of involvement, doesn't it?
Civil involvement in appointment of bishops hasn't occurred anywhere for a long, long time. The current Code of Canon Law states the following:
quote:
Canon 377 §5: For the future, no rights or privileges of election, appointment, presentation or designation of Bishops are conceded to civil authorities.
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
When was that bit of canon law created because any civil involvement before that is NOT covered by it. You can not concede whatever is already conceded.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Oh, I see. I did do a bit of digging around on this and found this article from Le Figaro (in French) which suggests that although the Archbishops of Strasbourg and Metz are technically appointed by the President of the Republic, in practice the Pope's nomination is accepted. Presumably for this reason it can be seen as fitting in with the requirements of Canon Law. And, yes, good point, Jengie- surely the wording 'for the future' means that no new state role in appointments can be created.
[ 08. August 2014, 15:12: Message edited by: Albertus ]
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
When was that bit of canon law created because any civil involvement before that is NOT covered by it. You can not concede whatever is already conceded.
Jengie
That specific canon is from 1983 but the same provision has been present since 1917. Whatever vestigial investiture privileges remain with secular authorities are in practice obsolete and have been for a century.
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
If you are reading them as obsolete from that canon or the preceding one I am afraid you are mistaken and should re-read the wording.It is very precise (as canons should be) and does not remove rights already conceded. It says it will not give any more away, but not that it will remove any conceded in the past. In other words I do not think it says what you want it to say.
Jengie
[ 08. August 2014, 19:58: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
If you are reading them as obsolete from that canon or the preceding one I am afraid you are mistaken and should re-read the wording.It is very precise (as canons should be) and does not remove rights already conceded. It says it will not give any more away, but not that it will remove any conceded in the past. In other words I do not think it says what you want it to say.
Jengie
No, I am saying that irrespective of canon law, any investiture rights that existed prior to 1917 are either defunct, not exercised or only exercised in accordance with the wishes of Rome. The example of France and Alsace-Lorraine is instructive; the French president only "appoints" who the Pope nominates. There is simply no question of French president today trying to appoint his own candidate to a see. This is also the case in the dozen or so countries in which such investiture rights nominally exist. It is also the case that since Vatican II Rome has actively sought to remove or render an even deader letter any such nominal rights
The last time a European government tried to interfere with regards to episcopal appointments saw Liechtenstein being removed from the diocese of Chur and the Archdiocese of Vaduz being erected. Rome simply will not tolerate secular meddling in her internal governance.
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"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
The canon is quite clear about existing rights. They continue to exist.
Most of the countries where nominal investiture rights remain have chosen not to involve themselves in the selection procedure. There's really no win for a government in getting involved in episcopal nominations. There is an argument that effective disuse of investiture rights will result in them becoming nominal, then expiring, but this is an issue over which canonists have been disputing for some centuries.
An acquaintance of mine has written a Canadian constitutional history paper on how, after the appointment of Michael Power as Bishop of Toronto in 1841, Lord Stanley (then Colonial Secretary) instructed the Lt Governor of Canada West that he was to ratify the Vatican's choice (formal consultations on the choice preceded the decision, which was followed by a formal recognition by the Crown), but that governors were no longer to concern themselves with ecclesiastical appointments-- it was a lot of political trouble for relatively little advantage. Doubtless other governments have come around to this point of view.
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