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Source: (consider it) Thread: What do the voices say?
leo
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# 1458

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
And only after we've seen Jesus through the lens of the literal Old Testament can we be orthodox?

Not 'literal'.

Jesus and his peers had a far more nuanced understanding of scripture.

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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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Freddy
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quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
My understanding is that there are two parallel worlds, each connected and corresponding to the other - the spiritual and the natural. So while spirits are not specifically tasked with looking after parts of the natural world they are nevertheless connected spiritually with these parts.

Isn't one of the key characteristics of parallel things that they don't intersect at any point? In other words, if the worlds are parallel then there shouldn't be any connection between them, and if there are connections between them, then they aren't really "parallel".
Very astute observation! That's exactly right.

When I say "connected" I mean connected by correspondence, which is, in a sense, not an actual connection. It is merely that things in the one world correspond to things in the other. This is why the two worlds are invisible and undetectable to each other.

Still "parallel" might not really be the best way to describe this relationship. Spiritual things are able to influence natural ones, and there is a constant flow of life from one to the other. But the way that this influx takes place through correspondence means that there is no continuity from the one to the other. The connection is really through function, a brilliant system actually!

In any case, it makes the whole issue of communication with God and spirits, and hearing "voices" a complicated one. The issue really is about what our conscious mind is, how the mind-body connection works, and how it is that our thoughts are manufactured, or received, by our physical brain.

A further thought here is that Abraham would have only been receptive of a God who met His expectations. If these expectations were met, then He would be likely to obey. It obviously worked. [Biased]

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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Martin60
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Ah leo. Did they now? So Jesus didn't believe in God the Killer? Himself?

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Love wins

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Russ
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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
this command, whilst entirely common and reasonable within a heathen context...

.. it had little to do with his personal feelings for his son, not for the rights and wrongs of child sacrifice.

Whilst agreeing that a child sacrifice which would be outrageous in twenty-first century England was commonplace at this location and period of history, that points to the question of whether that context makes it morally OK. Are you the sort of moral relativist who thinks that what is morally right changes with the culture ?

Or are you saying that the act he intended was wrong but that the man genuinely knew no better ? Invincible ignorance ?

Or that it was wrong and Abraham knew it was wrong, but social expectation is a mitigating circumstance - that he was weak rather than bad ?

And whichever you choose, do you apply the same argument to wrongdoing throughout history, or across different cultures in the world today ? Or is this special pleading on behalf of a pillar of Christian history ?

You may say that's not the important part of the story. I try to use that line when I'm caught out in wrongdoing - "that's not the point, that's not the important thing about what I'm telling you". Funnily enough, people aren't often convinced...

Nothing personal - it's that the double standard between the actions of Us and Them, between those we've cast as the Good Guys and those we'd like to portray as villains, is where corruption starts.

Best wishes,

Russ

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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas

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Freddy
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Ah leo. Did they now? So Jesus didn't believe in God the Killer? Himself?

Of course He did. The parables are full of violent imagery:
quote:
Matthew 21:43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. 44 And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”
But I think that it is clear that Jesus believed in "God the killer" in a nuanced way, as Leo says, because although Jesus consistently uses violent imagery He also consistently preaches against violence.

If you don't understand hyperbole, you won't understand the Bible. [Cool]

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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itsarumdo
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OK - thanks Freddy - I'm starting to get the meaning of correspondence - still some way to go [Roll Eyes]

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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron

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Martin60
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How does the violence of the parables (and allegory) prove that Jesus believed in God the Killer?

All it proves is that Jesus used His culture's memes.

Why didn't you quote Luke 17:26- and Matthew 24:37- ?

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Love wins

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ChastMastr
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That is perhaps something to consider; if we believe Jesus is the Son of the Father in the Trinitarian, world made through Him (Jesus) sense, and He did not express recorded doubt that His Father did what is recorded in the Old Testament, and yet if we see Jesus, then we have seen the Father...

...then maybe things in the Old Testament are a bit more complex/subtle or just hard for us to understand than we might think?

Though I think this is getting a tad afield of "when hearing voices that might or might not be real and/or Divine" since we seem to be moving on to what Jesus believes. (Or believed pre-Resurrection on Earth, if His knowledge of such matters was limited in some way.)

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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

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Freddy
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# 365

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
How does the violence of the parables (and allegory) prove that Jesus believed in God the Killer?

I think that they show that Jesus understood these Old Testament events as metaphor.
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
All it proves is that Jesus used His culture's memes.

Yes, that's a good way to put it. He completely understood the symbolic nature of Israel's recorded history.

He also understood, and expounded, the core of literal truth in those Scriptures. Nor was He shy about reinterpreting and correcting their misunderstanding of such things as the Sabbath, washing, retribution, loving the neighbor, etc.
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Why didn't you quote Luke 17:26- and Matthew 24:37- ?

Those might have been better examples. What happened to Noah would be repeated. To understand this it is even more imperative for us to grasp the metaphors at play.

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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Martin60
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As Jesus was a man of His culture and as He revealed in His belief in the Flood and therefore God the Killer and the necessity of Penal Substitutionary Atonement, the transcendence, the divine nature in Him had to work with, despite, all that and more. Racism for one.

The extrapolated arc is long.

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Love wins

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ChastMastr
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
The extrapolated arc is long.

[Confused]

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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

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Freddy
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
The extrapolated arc is long.

But it bends towards justice. [Angel]

Jesus was not a man of His culture. He was God of the universe, uniting the human and the Divine. As such He worked with what is human and limited, including the culture and beliefs of the time.

There is no killer God in Jesus except as metaphor.

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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ChastMastr
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I'm now reminded of a bad horror movie idea. "Beware the vampire Jesus--He gave His blood for you, and He wants it all back right now!!"

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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

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Martin60
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# 368

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That which was not assumed is not healed.

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Love wins

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ChastMastr
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
That which was not assumed is not healed.

Can you clarify, Martin?

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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

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Freddy
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# 365

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Jesus assumed the human in order to heal the human race.

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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Martin60
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# 368

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Culture is human.

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Love wins

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Freddy
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So Jesus assumed the whole culture in order to heal it.

I guess that is one way of saying that He fulfilled the Scriptures.

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
Jesus assumed the human in order to heal the human race.

Is that like assuming a can opener?

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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ChastMastr
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... Can someone explain a little bit more clearly what is meant here?

[Help]

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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

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Martin60
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# 368

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Exactly.

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Love wins

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ChastMastr
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quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
... Can someone explain a little bit more clearly what is meant here?

[Help]

... pretty please with gumdrops on it??

[Confused] [Help]

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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

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itsarumdo
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assumption_of_Mary

but for everyone

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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron

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Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Is that like assuming a can opener?

I prefer the concept of assuming a spherical cow. (This is part of the answer to how many cows can be housed in a specific space.

Moo

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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.

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Freddy
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I think that Martin is referring to the idea that by His birth into the world Jesus took on a human form from Mary.

The phrase is "assumed a human form."

Martin is pointing out, I think, that He took this on in order to heal what was human - but that this involves far more than just human bodies, and includes the culture itself.

Christ took on the sins of the world in order to heal us of them.

Martin's point, I think, is that this included the Israelitish understanding of "God the killer."

Apologies if I am interpreting Martin incorrectly. But if I'm right I think Martin should reward me by putting up two smiley faces.

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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Martin60
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[Biased] [Biased]

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Love wins

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Martin60
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Hmmmm. But lest there be any ambiguity (HA!), He had no choice but to believe His culture's defining work: The Scriptures. Not just redeem the sin of them on the cross, but believe in God the Killer, just as He believed in the necessity of Penal Substitutionary Atonement.

To live in ignorance and error is human.

He lived THAT, as well as died for it.

Prince trumps toad.

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Love wins

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ChastMastr
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Um... then at that point, how are we supposed to distinguish between "things Jesus believed but was wrong about" and "things Jesus believed but was right about"?

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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

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Martin60
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# 368

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By His behaviour.

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Love wins

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Freddy
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Hmmmm. But lest there be any ambiguity (HA!), He had no choice but to believe His culture's defining work: The Scriptures. Not just redeem the sin of them on the cross, but believe in God the Killer, just as He believed in the necessity of Penal Substitutionary Atonement.

That's not it at all. [Disappointed]

He wrote the Scriptures, killer God and all. He believed them because He understood that the true message was not about the history and odd customs of a small nation in Palestine. He caused this history to be recorded this way, and to miraculously happen the way it did, because it could serve as a vehicle for describing - no, for facilitating - the salvation of the human race.

It is not at all about PSA but about the step-by-step process of changing the world. Those steps are symbolized in the rise and progress of Israel. The "killer God" is a step in the formation of humanity's imperfect-but-improving understanding of how reality work.

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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Martin60
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Ah, I KNEW there was ambiguity.

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Love wins

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itsarumdo
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I think the only ambiguity is that we expect God to behave according to rules that we have constructed about how the universe works. Then complain when our rules are broken. There is no difference between this and the early mediaeval insistence that planetary orbits should be circular (because the circle is perfect). The data was available and widely known well before Bruno, Brahe and Galileo that pointed to the Sun being central in the solar system and orbits elliptical, but it was rejected on dogmatic grounds, trusting the literality of the Bible. That's not just a warning about scientific dogma being applied to the spiritual world (and natural world, for that matter), but also about literal interpretations in general.

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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron

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Belle Ringer
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I'm realizing from this discussion I was taught (1950s Protestant Episcopal Church) to read the OT literally and the NT metaphorically (especially Jesus' suggestions to do things like "give away your extra coat" which were labeled "pretty but impractical")

I've made peace with the OT by reading it metaphorically and trying to ignore the questions of historical literal genocide. (And I read the NT much more literally in it's challenges on how to live!)

But - genuine ignorance here - how common was it for historical reports by any nation back then to be literally and objectively true? Or was history typically recorded in ways intended as propaganda - as the history books in my elementary school certainly were!

Not that our history books invented wars that never happened, but the "we were wholly good and pure in motives and actions while they were evil" message was intentional and clear. Some of the "absolute victories" weren't nearly as absolute. You get older you find out it the historical events were all a lot more complex. You learn to pull out the salt shaker when hearing about some past hero or current military claims of perfect targeting to prevent civilian casualties or righteousness of keeping people in cages in Cuba forever with no trial.

Did adult Jews of Jesus' day read their OT stories as literal, or as cultural myth - based in facts but not the objective complete literal truth?

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itsarumdo
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# 18174

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The psyche of societies 2000 years ago was hugely different - they had a magical view of the world - spirits and gods walked amongst men and could be met at any time in any place in any form Letters,numbers and words were symbolic and rich in archetypal meaning well beyond our dictionary definitions. There was no scientific education to provide a sense of physical causality (however correct or incorrect that might be...) , life was generally short and yet people were prepared to spend vast portions of it travelling from one place to another. I don't think that there needed to be an intention to mythologise - it was in the blood. It arose out of the paper. That's why the texts are without vowels and spaces - there was a flow of numerological relationships that are not very different from the streams of digital underpinnings of the dreamed world in the Matrix.

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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron

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Martin60
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# 368

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He didn't write The Scriptures.

He's their goal. Their 'inspiration'.

He's visible in glimpses through the dark clouds of our fantasies. In Eden. The Flood. In the Terebinth Trees at Mamre. The Exodus.

NONE of which happened and none of which were written 'once upon a time' but God's pragmatism certainly goes as far as letting us attribute US to Him.

Prince trumps toad.

Belle Ringer. Superb.

[ 22. August 2014, 05:53: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]

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Love wins

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itsarumdo
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I'm not a bible historian, but think that there is some proof that the events around the exodus did happen.

And the flood myths appear to be a memory of the flooding of (what is now) the Black Sea - at one time it must have been a very fertile valley with marshes and lakes. Interesting underwater archaeology. There are also signs of flooded civilisations from about the same period on the shores of India - suggesting that the melt period and relatively rapid sea level rises after the last glacial caught out a lot of early communities all over the world.

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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron

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Martin60
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# 368

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There is no historical or archaelogical evidence whatsoever of the plagues and the parting of the Red Sea let alone lesser events like 2.2 million people wandering about Sinai for 40 years with millions of animals.

As for The Flood, none of the local and hypothetical events correlate with Biblical chronology within 500 years: The Flood was 4004 - 1656 = 2348 BC and the Shuruppak (Tell Fara, Iraq) regional flood was 2900. Biodiversity alone demonstrates the impossibility of a global flood in oooooh 30 million years at least.

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Love wins

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itsarumdo
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
There is no historical or archaelogical evidence whatsoever of the plagues and the parting of the Red Sea let alone lesser events like 2.2 million people wandering about Sinai for 40 years with millions of animals.

2.2 million - no - but would 2.2 million have been held in Egypt? Along with their animals?

quote:

As for The Flood, none of the local and hypothetical events correlate with Biblical chronology within 500 years: The Flood was 4004 - 1656 = 2348 BC and the Shuruppak (Tell Fara, Iraq) regional flood was 2900. Biodiversity alone demonstrates the impossibility of a global flood in oooooh 30 million years at least.

Global flood - yes - coastal and low flooding - plenty of evidence. Black sea (google Black sea flood underwater archaeology). And for India look for Gulf of Cambay - less relevant, I think - but it indicates the degree of sea level rebound that affected early human civilisations after the last ice age.

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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron

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itsarumdo
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# 18174

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
There is no historical or archaelogical evidence whatsoever of the plagues and the parting of the Red Sea let alone lesser events like 2.2 million people wandering about Sinai for 40 years with millions of animals.

2.2 million - no - but would 2.2 million have been held in Egypt? Along with their animals?

quote:

As for The Flood, none of the local and hypothetical events correlate with Biblical chronology within 500 years: The Flood was 4004 - 1656 = 2348 BC and the Shuruppak (Tell Fara, Iraq) regional flood was 2900. Biodiversity alone demonstrates the impossibility of a global flood in oooooh 30 million years at least.

Global flood - yes - coastal and low flooding - plenty of evidence. Black sea (google Black sea flood underwater archaeology). And for India look for Gulf of Cambay - less relevant, I think - but it indicates the degree of sea level rebound that affected early human civilisations after the last ice age.

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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron

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itsarumdo
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# 18174

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an unfortunately named website, but the information is accurate and useful - Flood Myth

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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron

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Martin60
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# 368

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Why unfortunate? There was no Biblical Flood. Mount Everest wasn't covered. Humanity didn't collapse to 8. All the land animals didn't die to be replenished in the right biomes 4300 years ago from a boat. And the Exodus figures are derived from there being 603,550 men over 19.

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Love wins

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itsarumdo
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# 18174

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I think we have a different view of how literal it's possible to be. I'm open to the general gesture being there - even if the details are not - so maybe there was a particular family who survived with their livestock when the Black Sea flooded. There is also a more symbolic interpretation. But I don't believe the original OT was completely metaphorical or just made up as a good story.

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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron

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Eutychus
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# 3081

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hosting/

This thread seems to be in danger of straying into the Dead Horse territory of inerrancy - or at least way off the original topic. Can I suggest either getting back on topic or starting a new thread to pursue the tangent?

/hosting

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Jude
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# 3033

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Have any of you heard about Thera? This was a massive volcanic explosion in ancient times, which some historians think may have been responsible for the parting of the Red Sea. What happened with the earlier flood of Noah is less certain, but Noah's world was not the whole world that we know now.
This story may have been influenced by the Epic of Gilgamesh.

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