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Source: (consider it) Thread: Islam. A religion of peace?
Martin60
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# 368

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But it was OK then? God was cool with that? All the way? Right behind it?

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Love wins

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Demas
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# 24

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
But it was OK then? God was cool with that? All the way? Right behind it?

This non-sequitur should be addressed to leo, not to me. He is the one who appears to be arguing that there is no applicable-to-all-times-and-places moral standard we can judge past people by.

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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray

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Beeswax Altar
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# 11644

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quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
But it was OK then? God was cool with that? All the way? Right behind it?

This non-sequitur should be addressed to leo, not to me. He is the one who appears to be arguing that there is no applicable-to-all-times-and-places moral standard we can judge past people by.
Demas, Demas...you are overthinking your response.

Just go with...

Yes, yes, he was.
[Biased]

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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
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Kaplan Corday
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# 16119

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quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
quote:
Originally posted by Arminian:
I wonder what Jewish slavery was like.

Slavery in Roman times wasn't as bad as plantation slavery in the US. If you had a good master you could learn a trade and be housed while you did your apprenticeship, and then buy your freedom. That's why some in Rome didn't mind becoming slaves - which is worth bearing in mind when slavery is mentioned in the NT by Paul.

[Overused] Agreed! [Overused]

As for Jewish slavery, there are pretty detailed rules in the Old Testament...

Roman slavery varied enormously, and at its worst (eg farms, mines) was as bad as, or worse than, antebellum American plantation slavery.

There are two types of slavery in the OT, that of fellow Israelites and that of Gentiles.

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Horseman Bree
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BUT, as usual, there are different kinds, and, therefore, one has to figure out which one is involved in the discussion.

A slave who is seen as human is in a different situation from one who can be mistreated in any imaginable way because he is not really human in the first place - the difference between the Roman case above and the case of the antebellum South.

Judging by some of the political and employment practises, the case of the antebellum South has not really been settled, BTW.

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It's Not That Simple

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Net Spinster
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# 16058

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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
Roman slavery varied enormously, and at its worst (eg farms, mines) was as bad as, or worse than, antebellum American plantation slavery.

There are two types of slavery in the OT, that of fellow Israelites and that of Gentiles.

There was also the difference between male and female slaves.

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spinner of webs

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Martin60
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# 368

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Perfectly logical to me.

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Love wins

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Alt Wally

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quote:
We also are being told by our political leaders that Islam is a religion of peace.
What makes them particularly informed to make this judgment.
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Beeswax Altar
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# 11644

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quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
BUT, as usual, there are different kinds, and, therefore, one has to figure out which one is involved in the discussion.

A slave who is seen as human is in a different situation from one who can be mistreated in any imaginable way because he is not really human in the first place - the difference between the Roman case above and the case of the antebellum South.

Judging by some of the political and employment practises, the case of the antebellum South has not really been settled, BTW.

There is no difference between slavery in the Roman Empire and slavery in the antebellum South. Slavery was worse for some slaves than others. Romans though no more or less of their slaves than Southerners. My guess is your claim that Southerners didn't see their slaves as human beings rests on a misunderstanding of the 3/5 Compromise.

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Gamaliel
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# 812

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At least the Romans had the excuse of living nearly 1800 years before the ante-bellum Southerners.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

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ChastMastr
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
But it was OK then? God was cool with that? All the way? Right behind it?

That's what the sacred texts say. And they are the ones we have been given, so whether I like it or not, I am stuck with them, and must trust that despite appearances, the God Who tells us to love and forgive our enemies in the New Testament is the same God as the One in the Old Testament--and that He will make how it all fits together clear in the world to come.

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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

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George Spigot

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# 253

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It's allright chaps. It was the good sort of slavery not the bad sort of slavery.

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C.S. Lewis's Head is just a tool for the Devil. (And you can quote me on that.) ~
Philip Purser Hallard
http://www.thoughtplay.com/infinitarian/gbsfatb.html

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Martin60
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# 368

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Much like Satan He'll be able to say that it was nothing to do with Him, that was us on our own, don't blame Him. That's how He'll fit it together for me.

And let's say that the OT is a accurate in attributing all the relished, loved violence to God. There is STILL none of that in Jesus, the ONLY way we are to know and emulate God. No matter that He goes in to overdrive in the Apocalypse.

And to the thread, Christianity has predominantly emulated the realpolitik God our ancestors envisaged, not Jesus and as a result we have Islam.

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Love wins

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ChastMastr
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quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
It's allright chaps. It was the good sort of slavery not the bad sort of slavery.

Amen! [Overused]

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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

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Beeswax Altar
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# 11644

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quote:
originally posted by Martin:
And to the thread, Christianity has predominantly emulated the realpolitik God our ancestors envisaged, not Jesus and as a result we have Islam.

I'm looking for the evidence to support that rather bold assertion.

I'm not finding any.

OK...I'm calling bullshit.

Bullshit!

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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan

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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
At least the Romans had the excuse of living nearly 1800 years before the ante-bellum Southerners.

Sounds a bit like a variation on chronological snobbery.

In areas such as science and technology, the latest can safely be assumed to be the best, but in ethical matters time is irrelevant.

What could or should American antebellum plantation slave-owners have learned from the example of Roman slavery?

You either believe that slavery is self-evidently morally wrong ( it can be argued that it is inefficient, but that is a separate, economic issue) or you don’t, whether you live in the first or the eighteenth century.

Like you, I do not have the slightest doubt that slavery is wicked and dehumanizing, but were I to meet a slave owner (they exist) who asserted that it was acceptable in the twenty-first century, and so were Roman and American slavery in their day, it would be impossible to demonstrate to him (assuming that it was proving financially viable for him) historically, or rationally, or empirically, that it is wrong.

I happen to believe that many changes, such as our treatment of animals or our attitudes toward the status of women, are a Good Thing, but I can’t “prove” it.

People will try to say that we are more enlightened today, but that is just begging the question.

De gustibus non est disputandum.

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Martin60
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# 368

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It's certainly bullshit that Christianity has emulated the Prince of Peace.

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Love wins

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Raptor Eye
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# 16649

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
It's certainly bullshit that Christianity has emulated the Prince of Peace.

People stand in the way of God's will, they always have and they probably always will, until all changes at the end of time.

Solomon was supposedly the wisest man who ever lived, and he forged good relationships with all around him so that there was peace throughout his reign and everyone prospered. And yet he was a womaniser and was not faithful to God, so that the tribes of Israel were divided after he died. Even he stood in the way of God's will. We have to live with the consequences of our free will. The responsibility is ours, individually and collectively.

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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10

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Matt Black

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# 2210

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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
I also would say that the story "Persian empire beats the snot out of the Byzantine empire" sounds inherently more likely than "charismatic leader rallies hitherto unimportant Arabian tribes into a veritable military force that then beats the snot out of the Byzantine empire."


Yes but, as Dafyd has pointed out, the Persian Empire also had just had the snot beaten out of it by the Byzantine Empire. Both empires were exhausted by 628 which explains why the Byzantines lost so much territory and indeed the Sassanids ceased to exist by the end of the following decade at the hands of the Muslims.

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

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Beeswax Altar
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# 11644

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
It's certainly bullshit that Christianity has emulated the Prince of Peace.

This is a dodge worthy of an experienced politician.

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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan

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ChastMastr
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# 716

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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
I happen to believe that many changes, such as our treatment of animals or our attitudes toward the status of women, are a Good Thing, but I can’t “prove” it.

Why not try? [Confused]

As for slavery, I am also of the belief that hierarchy within societies (including serfdom, slavery, monarchy, and so on) is not in itself bad--but I also believe in noblesse oblige, and I do believe that racially-based slavery, and how lots of people wound up slaves in general, and how slaves were often treated in history in general, was ghastly and wrong. I think the Roman and Jewish (OT) approaches were miles better overall than the antebellum US stuff. And, of course, as C.S. Lewis says (with application to all kinds of legal, social hierarchy--he goes on to argue for consensual non-legally binding hierarchy in various contexts such as the church and household),

quote:
I am a democrat [proponent of democracy] because I believe in the Fall of Man.

I think most people are democrats for the opposite reason. A great deal of democratic enthusiasm descends from the ideas of people like Rousseau, who believed in democracy because they thought mankind so wise and good that every one deserved a share in the government.

The danger of defending democracy on those grounds is that they’re not true. . . . I find that they’re not true without looking further than myself. I don’t deserve a share in governing a hen-roost. Much less a nation. . . .

The real reason for democracy is just the reverse. Mankind is so fallen that no man can be trusted with unchecked power over his fellows. Aristotle said that some people were only fit to be slaves. I do not contradict him. But I reject slavery because I see no men fit to be masters.

—C.S. Lewis, “Equality,” in Present Concerns



[ 11. August 2014, 13:00: Message edited by: ChastMastr ]

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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

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leo
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# 1458

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quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
It's certainly bullshit that Christianity has emulated the Prince of Peace.

This is a dodge worthy of an experienced politician.
which doesn't make it any the less true

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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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Beeswax Altar
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OK...leo...maybe you can offer some evidence to support Martin's claim. While your at it, perhaps you could offer some evidence to support your claim that Judaism has always opposed slavery. Maybe rhetoric has progressed to the point where tossing out unsupported assertions now counts as a reasoned argument.

Fine

All Socialists worship the devil.

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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan

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Net Spinster
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# 16058

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quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
I think the Roman and Jewish (OT) approaches were miles better overall than the antebellum US stuff.

Well Roman slavery did have more options for slaves to legally escape slavery and for their descendants to reach full citizenship; however, it also had some far worse practices (e.g., slaves being fodder in the gladiator games or all slaves in a household down to the littlest baby being executed if a slave or former slave killed the master). For Jewish slavery we know what the law said but not necessarily much about practice; it does not seem to have had a large slave based economy like the antebellum South or large parts of the Roman Empire.

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Crœsos
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# 238

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quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
As for slavery, I am also of the belief that hierarchy within societies (including serfdom, slavery, monarchy, and so on) is not in itself bad--but I also believe in noblesse oblige, and I do believe that racially-based slavery, and how lots of people wound up slaves in general, and how slaves were often treated in history in general, was ghastly and wrong. I think the Roman and Jewish (OT) approaches were miles better overall than the antebellum US stuff.

A couple points.

  • Slavery is an inherently violent and abusive institution. The threat of violence must always be present and credible in a slave's mind to deter escape or revolt. Abusive violence towards slaves isn't a bug, it's a feature.
  • Roman and Jewish slavery only look "miles better overall than the antebellum US stuff" because of cherry-picked examples, comparing U.S. agricultural slaves with Roman or Jewish "house" slaves (scribes, cooks, valets, etc.). If you were to do the reverse, comparing the lot of American house slaves to the slaves toiling in Rome's Spanish silver mines or the farms of Sicily you could easily come to the opposite conclusion.

I'm never quite certain of the agenda of those proposing that there are "good" forms of slavery, but it seems a distressingly common position.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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chris stiles
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# 12641

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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
The reviewer agrees that traditional Islamic readings of contemporary sources have been problematic, but apparently concludes that these guys are pretty much full of crap.

Looks like it... I think the linguistic issues are key. If the idea of Syriac roots of the qur'an and the interpretation of Muhammad as title rather than name can be conclusively rejected, then this theory of Muhammad's non-existence is pretty much dead.
The linguistic bits issues are kind of orthogonal to the issue of Muhammed's existence. He could have lived and those issues could still be true. The main issue with any kind of refutal of these issues (as well as those theories of people like Christoph Luxenberg) is that they generally require quite in depth knowledge of very different languages - and there isn't much higher critical study of the Koran to start with.
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ChastMastr
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# 716

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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:

I'm never quite certain of the agenda of those proposing that there are "good" forms of slavery, but it seems a distressingly common position.

I don't have a hidden agenda; slavery and other forms of societal hierarchy, in and of themselves, haven't been treated as intrinsically forbidden by either Scripture or Christian Tradition for millennia. However, for the reasons Lewis gives above, I would not suggest bringing it back, and I firmly stand against modern no-choice-in-the-matter slavery. Hell, I even go further in being firmly against the way corporations treat their workers and such to the point where I'm to the left of many US Democrats.

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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

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Crœsos
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# 238

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quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
As for slavery, I am also of the belief that hierarchy within societies (including serfdom, slavery, monarchy, and so on) is not in itself bad . . .

quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
I don't have a hidden agenda; slavery and other forms of societal hierarchy, in and of themselves, haven't been treated as intrinsically forbidden by either Scripture or Christian Tradition for millennia.

This is a non-sequitur unless you hold "bad" and "forbidden by either Scripture or Christian Tradition" to be identical categories. But yes, you're right. Both Christian scripture and tradition do not see anything wrong with slavery, nor with beating, branding, raping, or killing your slaves. That's a more recent, non-traditional religious position.

So yes, if scripture and tradition are your sole standard for such things I can see why you would classify slavery as "not bad".

[ 11. August 2014, 15:07: Message edited by: Crœsos ]

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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ChastMastr
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# 716

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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Both Christian scripture and tradition do not see anything wrong with slavery, nor with beating, branding, raping, or killing your slaves.

Can you provide proof for the raping and killing being considered morally acceptable to Christians part? [Confused]

(If that were true in some Christian society, I would say that it was a blind spot, but that does not make hierarchy in itself bad.)

Again, I point above to what Lewis says.

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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

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ChastMastr
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# 716

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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
So yes, if scripture and tradition are your sole standard for such things I can see why you would classify slavery as "not bad".

It's certainly where I try to start when analyzing various things, especially large movements of cultural behavior. It doesn't have to mean that is where I must end, however.

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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

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George Spigot

Outcast
# 253

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Is a discussion on "Not the bad sort of slavery" worthy of it's own thread or has that already been done?

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C.S. Lewis's Head is just a tool for the Devil. (And you can quote me on that.) ~
Philip Purser Hallard
http://www.thoughtplay.com/infinitarian/gbsfatb.html

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Horseman Bree
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# 5290

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Beeswax Altar:
quote:
My guess is your claim that Southerners didn't see their slaves as human beings rests on a misunderstanding of the 3/5 Compromise.


I understand the 3/5 compromise quite well enough to see that neither side actually saw the slaves as quite human (just 3/5 of a human, to be precise). The slaves were simply bargaining chips in terms of deciding Rep by Pop and taxation ratios, nothing much to do with their status as people with a right to a political opinion.

And there is quite strong evidence that this idea is still held by many in the Deep South. Blacks are human enough that it is now unpopular to lynch them (since other people find out about that kind of thing) but not human enough to be allowed to vote (if one can find a way to prevent them from voting without them pesky outsiders getting in the way)

Why do you think the GOP has always opposed Obama, even before he took office? We didn't see the same vehemence of opposition to Clinton.

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It's Not That Simple

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Jay-Emm
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# 11411

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quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
Is a discussion on "Not the bad sort of slavery" worthy of it's own thread or has that already been done?

Various flavours have come up before. I just tried doing an OP and gave up, but there is an anecdote I found depressing.

One of the 18th C people from locally was hung blamed for a slave rebellion.
Seeing the display one of the things that stuck out was their efforts to make church attendance impossible.
I can't fully remember the details but at one point parliament voted that anyone given a ticket had to be allowed to go to church, the colonies response was to make the ticket compulsory and not (really) give any out.

Anyway in a conversation with relatives who:
a) I believe are not willful racists
b) Are Christians
c) Aren't that different from me
I recounted a bit of the story

Within the minute various lines like 'some slaves had it better than some non-slaves' came out.

Academically I suspect it is true from a 'certain point of view'.

But in that context to reach and fix on that line so fast, was a rather blatant and rather scary (presumably subconscious) need to avoid facing something and I'm not quite sure what it was.

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Beeswax Altar
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quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Beeswax Altar:
quote:
My guess is your claim that Southerners didn't see their slaves as human beings rests on a misunderstanding of the 3/5 Compromise.


I understand the 3/5 compromise quite well enough to see that neither side actually saw the slaves as quite human (just 3/5 of a human, to be precise). The slaves were simply bargaining chips in terms of deciding Rep by Pop and taxation ratios, nothing much to do with their status as people with a right to a political opinion.

And there is quite strong evidence that this idea is still held by many in the Deep South. Blacks are human enough that it is now unpopular to lynch them (since other people find out about that kind of thing) but not human enough to be allowed to vote (if one can find a way to prevent them from voting without them pesky outsiders getting in the way)

Why do you think the GOP has always opposed Obama, even before he took office? We didn't see the same vehemence of opposition to Clinton.

You are simply wrong. Southerners hated Clinton just like they hate Ovama. I know. I was there. I'm 37. I've spent 30 of those years living in the Deep South. How much time have you spent in the Deep South? How many Southerners do you actually know? How much of what you think you know about the Deep South comes from reading biased sources meant to appeal to those of a certain political persuasion?

Frankly, I think some of your views regarding the United States and the South in particular are just plain bigoted.

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ChastMastr
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quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
You are simply wrong. Southerners hated Clinton just like they hate Ovama.

I don't know how much it's spread among Southerners specifically, but I think the current GOP crowd despises Obama more than Clinton, and yes, I think there's a powerful racist undercurrent to it.

quote:
I know. I was there. I'm 37. I've spent 30 of those years living in the Deep South. How much time have you spent in the Deep South?
I'll be 47 in just a few weeks and am a Florida native, and while it is ironically not as "deep south" as north of us is, there are still some genuinely ... extreme mindsets here. Areas with huge old Rebel flags waving, areas that seem like just this side of "Deliverance." But I've also seen more overt racism coming from crazy people much further north (or west), like Cliven Bundy, or this f-ing lunatic.

quote:

Frankly, I think some of your views regarding the United States and the South in particular are just plain bigoted.

I've lived in the US all my life, and I certainly think there's a serious problem with racism here. I've been taken aback by things people say when they assume you're "one of them." Horrible.

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ChastMastr
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Indeed, I had to leave a couple of local Facebook groups devoted to "remember what it was like growing up here in Tampa Bay" sorts of things because the overt racism that burst out of some people sickened and angered me. Some of them were quite proud of having been involved, just a little bit before my time, in the anti-desegregation riots at our local schools--as in, they were proud of fighting to keep racial segregation. Disgusting and evil. [Mad] So, yeah, it's still very real around here.

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ChastMastr
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This sort of thing, specifically.

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Beeswax Altar
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quote:
originally posted by ChastMastr:
I don't know how much it's spread among Southerners specifically, but I think the current GOP crowd despises Obama more than Clinton, and yes, I think there's a powerful racist undercurrent to it.

I became obsessed with politics during the Clinton Administration. I was a Republican. We hated Bill Clinton. Let's remember that Bill Clinton was a pot smoking, draft dodging, Communist. Those were the nice things said about Clinton. The extreme version was that Clinton was essentially the head of the Dixie Mafia and responsible for murdering Vince Foster and Ron Brown. The idea that Republicans don't like Obama because he's black is silly. Democrats were going to say it's about race because it makes them feel morally superior. Fact is Republicans don't like Obama because Obama is a Democrat. Imagine that.

quote:
originally posted by ChastMastr:
I'll be 47 in just a few weeks and am a Florida native, and while it is ironically not as "deep south" as north of us is, there are still some genuinely ... extreme mindsets here. Areas with huge old Rebel flags waving, areas that seem like just this side of "Deliverance." But I've also seen more overt racism coming from crazy people much further north (or west), like Cliven Bundy, or this f-ing lunatic.

Have any of them seriously suggested that black people weren't human? I've never heard that and I've known some very racist people. Not saying you can't find an internet racist claiming black people aren't human. I can point you to a former spokesman for the Green Party of England and Wales that believes his political foes are reptiles.

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ChastMastr
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# 716

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quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
I became obsessed with politics during the Clinton Administration. I was a Republican. We hated Bill Clinton. Let's remember that Bill Clinton was a pot smoking, draft dodging, Communist. Those were the nice things said about Clinton. The extreme version was that Clinton was essentially the head of the Dixie Mafia and responsible for murdering Vince Foster and Ron Brown.

I remember. I was there too. Indeed, this was the period during which I actually shifted, near the end of Clinton's second term, from Republican to Democrat. I also saw some old friends of mine shift terrifyingly further and further to the right--at least two of them basically fell in love with Rush Limbaugh and became increasingly venom-infused people overall.

quote:
The idea that Republicans don't like Obama because he's black is silly.
I think that the Republicans who are like this are, indeed, silly, albeit in a toxic and harmful way. That doesn't mean it's all of them, but if you look at things like depicting Obama as a witch-doctor with a bone in his nose as a way of dissing Obamacare, or the constant drumbeat which just kept going about how he's secretly not American and/or secretly Muslim, with all of the "othering" involved there---yeah, it's there, I'm sorry. I wish it weren't.

quote:
Democrats were going to say it's about race because it makes them feel morally superior.
No, many Democrats believe it's about race for a chunk of Republicans because we believe the facts support it.

For God's sake, the moment the rules changed about voting restrictions, a whole lot of places in the South abruptly started rushing through a hell of a lot of Jim Crow laws. That's not racist?

quote:
Fact is Republicans don't like Obama because Obama is a Democrat. Imagine that.

quote:
originally posted by ChastMastr:
I'll be 47 in just a few weeks and am a Florida native, and while it is ironically not as "deep south" as north of us is, there are still some genuinely ... extreme mindsets here. Areas with huge old Rebel flags waving, areas that seem like just this side of "Deliverance." But I've also seen more overt racism coming from crazy people much further north (or west), like Cliven Bundy, or this f-ing lunatic.

Have any of them seriously suggested that black people weren't human?
What does that have to do with whether these people are racist (or, for that matter, lunatics)? [Confused]

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Paul 2012
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# 17402

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Without wishing to sound preachy, heated exchanges about which denomination or faith has got it right or wrong, whether I am involved or not, often make me think of both Mark 9:33:


"And he came to Capernaum: and being in the house he asked them, What was it that ye disputed among yourselves by the way?" and John 14:2:


"In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you."

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"A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another."

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Beeswax Altar
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quote:
originally posted by ChastMastr:
or the constant drumbeat which just kept going about how he's secretly not American and/or secretly Muslim, with all of the "othering" involved there---yeah, it's there, I'm sorry. I wish it weren't.

Again, Republicans said some nasty stuff about Clinton. Democrats said some nasty stuff about Bush. Some of the nasty stuff people say about Obama is racist. My question is if a white Democrat proposed the exact same policies as Obama would Republicans support them. I think the answer is an obvious no.

quote:
originally posted by ChastMastr:
What does that have to do with whether these people are racist (or, for that matter, lunatics)? [Confused]

Read Horseman Bree's post that I was responding to in the first place.

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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
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L'organist
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What is truly chilling is the general indifference to the situation in northern Iraq in the gulf states and Saudi Arabia.

A quick glance through newspapers from KSA reveals that they're full of stuff about Gaza, lots of space given to the amount of tobacco imported from South Africa, a few small articles about al-Maliki and sweet FA about the Yazidi or the Chaldeans.

The one mention of the Yazidi refers to them as Zoroastrians (not true) who are viewed as devil-worshippers - but that last canard is down to Salafi and Wahhabi imams in any case.

And just in case anyone thinks it will all die down, we should be very afraid that ISIS has over-run Saddam Hussein's former chemical warfare research establishment at Mutthana.

Be very afraid.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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Beeswax Altar
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The Saudis are supporting ISIS. Still, the US pretends the Saudis are our allies. Much of US foreign policy is a joke. Isolation gets a bad rap.

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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
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seekingsister
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# 17707

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quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
My question is if a white Democrat proposed the exact same policies as Obama would Republicans support them. I think the answer is an obvious no.

Yes but then they'd do like with Clinton and focus on his legitimate bad qualities (everyone has them), like his philandering.

There is nothing inherently wrong with being black, Kenyan, or Muslim, therefore using those are reasons to oppose Obama's policies is in a different category.

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Beeswax Altar
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Philandering isn't a reason to oppose somebodies policies either. Lord knows Bill Clinton wasn't the first politician to philander. Republicans oppose Obama's policies because Republicans oppose Obama's policies. If Obama wanted to enact Republican policies, Republicans wouldn't care if he was black, Muslim or Kenyan. Democrats, even the white ones, would call him an Uncle Tom or something similar.

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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
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ChastMastr
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quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
My question is if a white Democrat proposed the exact same policies as Obama would Republicans support them. I think the answer is an obvious no.

That doesn't mean the presence of racism isn't a serious factor in the way the current GOP is dealing with Obama--and indeed the aggression against him is much stronger than with Clinton. There's a difference between "not supporting" and "trying to block every single thing the man does."

Perhaps it is not the John Boehners and Mitch McConnells but more on a state level, but we are definitely seeing some crazytown-level paranoia about Obama, and it really does have a strong racist tone.

quote:

quote:
originally posted by ChastMastr:
What does that have to do with whether these people are racist (or, for that matter, lunatics)? [Confused]

Read Horseman Bree's post that I was responding to in the first place.
quote:
Horseman Bree said:

And there is quite strong evidence that this idea is still held by many in the Deep South. Blacks are human enough that it is now unpopular to lynch them (since other people find out about that kind of thing) but not human enough to be allowed to vote (if one can find a way to prevent them from voting without them pesky outsiders getting in the way)

Why do you think the GOP has always opposed Obama, even before he took office? We didn't see the same vehemence of opposition to Clinton.

While it may indeed be a difference if you asked people, "Do you believe that black people are less human?" I'm not sure there is a practical difference between consciously, literally, ontologically seeing other kinds of people as "not quite human" and looking at them as "sufficiently other that we can treat them less well than our kind of people." If you combine this attitude with a serious historical problem in which black people have genuinely been treated as intrinsically lesser beings, exhibited in human zoos, and things like this. And this guy. The Bell Curve. And so very, very much more. And, well, all of this.

I feel like taking a shower now after reading much, much more of that than I planned to. [Projectile]

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seekingsister
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quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Philandering isn't a reason to oppose somebodies policies either.

I agree, but it is still something negative. Being black is not. If you have a morals clause in your contract your employer can fire you for cheating on your wife; they can't fire you for being black though.

Point being: just because GOP goes after Democrats doesn't mean all of their attacks are equal.

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Beeswax Altar
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quote:
originally posted by ChastMastr:
That doesn't mean the presence of racism isn't a serious factor in the way the current GOP is dealing with Obama--and indeed the aggression against him is much stronger than with Clinton. There's a difference between "not supporting" and "trying to block every single thing the man does."

Perhaps it is not the John Boehners and Mitch McConnells but more on a state level, but we are definitely seeing some crazytown-level paranoia about Obama, and it really does have a strong racist tone.


The Republicans didn't aggressively oppose Bill Clinton! Are you kidding? They freaking investigated every scandal that arose until they found a reason to impeach him!

After that contradict yourself. Mitch McConnel and John Boehner are responsible for opposing Obama's policies. If they aren't opposing Obama because he is black, then congressional Republicans aren't opposing his policies because he's black. Tell me this, which of Obama's policies that Republicans opposed would have passed if Obama had been white? Obama spent the first half of his first term getting Obamacare passed. He had trouble getting that past his own party.

quote:
originally posted by ChastMastr:
I'm not sure there is a practical difference between consciously, literally, ontologically seeing other kinds of people as "not quite human" and looking at them as "sufficiently other that we can treat them less well than our kind of people."

Yes there is. One of the flaws of being a human is to treat people like us better than we treat others. I know several Episcopal churches where a highly educated, upper middle class black lesbian would be treated just as well as a highly educated upper middle class straight white male. How racist white people treated black people for much of the 20th century was no different from the class system that still existed in the UK at the exact same time complete with the paternalism.

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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
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ChastMastr
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quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
The Republicans didn't aggressively oppose Bill Clinton!

I didn't say that; I said, "trying to block every single thing the man does." Saying that they oppose Obama more isn't saying they didn't oppose Clinton.

quote:
After that contradict yourself. Mitch McConnel and John Boehner are responsible for opposing Obama's policies.
They're not the only ones.

quote:
Tell me this, which of Obama's policies that Republicans opposed would have passed if Obama had been white? Obama spent the first half of his first term getting Obamacare passed. He had trouble getting that past his own party.
He actually accomplished a lot more than that, I'm happy to say; as for what might be in Parallel Universe 2 where Obama was white, I have no idea.

quote:
I know several Episcopal churches where a highly educated, upper middle class black lesbian would be treated just as well as a highly educated upper middle class straight white male.
And that's great! Not relevant to racism still being an issue outside those churches, but great.

quote:
How racist white people treated black people for much of the 20th century was no different from the class system that still existed in the UK at the exact same time complete with the paternalism.
... No. Please take a look again at those links. Were people of different classes in the UK not allowed to drink from the same fountains or use the same restrooms or have voting rights or marriage rights or sit in the front of the bus or... my God, the list goes on. South Carolina's Bob Jones University banned interracial dating until 2000. [brick wall]

I don't think we're going to convince each other of each others' positions, so I'm bowing out of the racism discussion on this thread (which threatens to derail it completely), so... have a nice day. [Smile]

--------------------
My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

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Beeswax Altar
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One, I'm still waiting for evidence the Republicans opposed Obama more aggressively than Clinton.

Two, I can tell you how much more Obama would have accomplished if he was white...zilch. What Republican in the Senate or House would have voted with Obama if he was white and on what? I think that's a fair and obvious question to ask if you are saying the Republicans opposed Obama's agenda because he was black and not because they disagreed with his agenda.

Three, you missed the point of the Episcopal churches that would welcome the highly educated, upper middle class black lesbian. Read it again. Her race, sexuality, or gender might be a hindrance to her being accepted but education and social status surely would.

Four, I don't need to read the links. I'm aware Jim Crow laws existed in the South. I've seen the traces of it. How is that similar to the class system in the UK? Well, there was segregation based on class in the UK. What do you think the phrase upstairs, downstairs actually means? Besides, I've noticed plenty of segregation in the Midwest. I went to a school in East Texas where 25% of the student body was African American. Some students lived over 10 miles from the school. Now, in my blue state by the lake, I lived about a mile from two high schools. One was predominantly African-American and Latino. The other was predominantly upper middle class white people. The first was one of the worst schools in the state. The second was one of the best. Segregation was de facto rather than de jure. So what? Every single one of those affluent white people would have been happy to tell you how so much more tolerant they were than all the racists down South.

--------------------
Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan

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