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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Islam. A religion of peace?
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
One last reply for me on this for now:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
One, I'm still waiting for evidence the Republicans opposed Obama more aggressively than Clinton.
Sorry, but you can keep waiting: "I don't think we're going to convince each other of each others' positions, so I'm bowing out of the racism discussion on this thread (which threatens to derail it completely), so... have a nice day. [Smile]"
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Two, I can tell you how much more Obama would have accomplished if he was white...zilch. What Republican in the Senate or House would have voted with Obama if he was white and on what? I think that's a fair and obvious question to ask if you are saying the Republicans opposed Obama's agenda because he was black and not because they disagreed with his agenda.
Except what I actually said was: "...I think the current GOP crowd despises Obama more than Clinton, and yes, I think there's a powerful racist undercurrent to it...." "...I think that the Republicans who are like this are, indeed, silly, albeit in a toxic and harmful way. That doesn't mean it's all of them..." "...many Democrats believe it's about race for a chunk of Republicans..." "...and it really does have a strong racist tone..."
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Three, you missed the point of the Episcopal churches that would welcome the highly educated, upper middle class black lesbian.
Not in the slightest; I just didn't think it was especially relevant to whether or not racism was still a serious problem elsewhere. I thought about getting into the classism issue but decided that would be unfruitful and even more derailing than the race discussion has already been on what is, after all, a thread on Islam.
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Read it again. Her race, sexuality, or gender might be a hindrance to her being accepted but education and social status surely would.
And yes, that is a bad thing.
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Four, I don't need to read the links. I'm aware Jim Crow laws existed in the South.
Your choice, but that's not what the links were about.
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I've seen the traces of it. How is that similar to the class system in the UK? Well, there was segregation based on class in the UK. What do you think the phrase upstairs, downstairs actually means?
It was not the same thing, but I've grown weary of this debate.
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Besides, I've noticed plenty of segregation in the Midwest.
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Me: "...But I've also seen more overt racism coming from crazy people much further north (or west), like Cliven Bundy, or this f-ing lunatic...."
Bundy's in Nevada and the lunatic is in Maryland.
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Every single one of those affluent white people would have been happy to tell you how so much more tolerant they were than all the racists down South.
And obviously they would be wrong.
Once last time, as I said before,
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I don't think we're going to convince each other of each others' positions, so I'm bowing out of the racism discussion on this thread (which threatens to derail it completely), so... have a nice day. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
How is that similar to the class system in the UK? Well, there was segregation based on class in the UK. What do you think the phrase upstairs, downstairs actually means?
If you want to argue that class-based discrimination in this country was equivalent to segregation, you are going to have to do better than that. As Dickens' Bleak House makes clear, it was possible for a child brought up in the "downstairs" world to be an adult "upstairs". We may (have) be(en) a very class-based society but there was always a lot of mobility between the classes.
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
You are simply wrong. Southerners hated Clinton just like they hate Ovama. I know. I was there. I'm 37. I've spent 30 of those years living in the Deep South. How much time have you spent in the Deep South? How many Southerners do you actually know? How much of what you think you know about the Deep South comes from reading biased sources meant to appeal to those of a certain political persuasion?
And as ChastMastr says, you are simply overgeneralizing. I know. I was there. I'm 53, and all 53 of those years have been spent in the South. (Admittedly, not the Deep South. But the Deep South is not the entirety of the South.)
The South is not a monolithic region, where everyone thinks alike—unless it's in preferring sweet tea—or even has the same accent. Even you had gone with "no Southern state went for Clinton or Obama," you' wouldn't be right. (And I'll readily admit that northern Virginia can reasonably considered not Southern.)
Many Southerners, particularly of Republican or tea party persuasion, did not like Clinton and do not like Obama. In many parts of the Southern, they'd be in the majority. But many other Southerners voted for both and support[ed] both.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Alt Wally
Cardinal Ximinez
# 3245
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Posted
So there was a school age child photographed this week holding up the severed head of another human being. What was the inspiration for that?
Posts: 3684 | Registered: Aug 2002
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Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
So there was a school age child photographed this week holding up the severed head of another human being. What was the inspiration for that?
A toxic mix of victimhood and supremacy leading to the conclusion that you are inherently righteous no matter what atrocities you commit. Mediated through German nationalism and you get Nazis. Mediated through Sunni extremism you get ISIS. Mediated through Christianity you get massacres by Phalangists in the Lebanese Civil War.
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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
Posts: 1894 | From: Thessalonica | Registered: May 2004
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Alt Wally
Cardinal Ximinez
# 3245
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Posted
So there is an underlying causality and in the examples given - Islam, Christianity and Nazism those are just incidental factors?
[ 13. August 2014, 02:45: Message edited by: Alt Wally ]
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Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
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Posted
Not incidental factors, no. Belief structures shape and guide the expression and enter into a feedback loop with the dangerous mentality. Nazis didn't stone adulteresses or behead people. ISIS jihadists don't care about racial purity.
Some belief structures seem to work to reinforce a belief that you are special, righteous, but at the same time a victim whose every response against the untermenschen is justified.
I'm also not sure the mentality is the cause. I have to drive along the highway to work, but the highway is not the cause of my trip.
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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
Posts: 1894 | From: Thessalonica | Registered: May 2004
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Alt Wally
Cardinal Ximinez
# 3245
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Posted
Perhaps it's best not to over-think this. The ISIL people may in large part just be psychopaths who enjoy killing people (including principally other Muslims).
Posts: 3684 | Registered: Aug 2002
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Its 24 hours since the news broke of the latest murder of a hostage by IS/ ISIS.
Where is the condemnation from Arab heads of state or imams?
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
The news is still full of the little boy with cancer. The media can't multitask. They've shown the pictures, but not got round to talking to people outside the government yet.
One of the Guardian's reporters is a Muslim.
[ 03. September 2014, 14:56: Message edited by: Penny S ]
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Alwyn
Shipmate
# 4380
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
.. Where is the condemnation from Arab heads of state or imams?
Does this list of condemnations (including the chief of the Arab League - an association of Arab states - as well as religious leaders in Egypt, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and other countries) help?
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Post hoc, ergo propter hoc
Posts: 849 | From: UK | Registered: Apr 2003
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Lord Clonk
Shipmate
# 13205
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
There are parts of the Bible that read like a Conan novel, so....
More like a CANAAN novel! Am I right?
Posts: 267 | From: Glasgow | Registered: Nov 2007
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I have heard that British imams have been preaching against IS for months; in fact, there has been a fatwa against them. But some imams report that some militants know little about Islam actually.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
L'organist: Where is the condemnation from Arab heads of state or imams?
Once again ...
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alwyn:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
.. Where is the condemnation from Arab heads of state or imams?
Does this list of condemnations (including the chief of the Arab League - an association of Arab states - as well as religious leaders in Egypt, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and other countries) help?
In my part of the world, you can add Malaysia and Indonesia to the list of countries that have condemned ISIS. But with little reporting of it in Australian media.
The fact is our media isn't that interested in anything said in parts of the world that aren't ours or that don't directly affect us. There's a scale (possibly derived from Noam Chomsky??) that measures the amount of column inches (or whatever the web equivalent of a column inch) given to a story. Trivial things that happen locally get the same amount of coverage as very significant things that happen in a remote place that is just a name on a map.
I think this applies to anything and everything. It's not specifically an anti-Muslim bias in the media, more a general priority system. Watching the news on the explicitly multicultural network here, SBS, one is often struck by the difference in their priority system. They do still give some priority to Australian news, but it's nowhere near as pronounced.
Even most of the victims of ISIS, for months and months, are just nameless objects. American journalists are not. They have names, past histories, families, eulogies. They are, in short, relatable.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I think IS have been decapitating other Syrian rebels and Syrian soldiers for months - have the Western media made a fuss? I doubt it.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I think IS have been decapitating other Syrian rebels and Syrian soldiers for months - have the Western media made a fuss? I doubt it.
I certainly saw (on the front page of several online newspapers) mass murders of Syrians and Kurds before the murder of the two American journalists was published.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I think IS have been decapitating other Syrian rebels and Syrian soldiers for months - have the Western media made a fuss? I doubt it.
Yeah, I'm really not quite getting the media angst over the decapitation of these journalists.
As far as terrorist atrocities against westerners go, I was much more disturbed by 9/11, probably because of the Grace Of God factor, ie. it's plausibe that I would visit New York, and quite likely that I'd go to the WTC if I did.
But the journalists who were executed by ISIS were hardly just living out an everyday, milquetoast existence; they had deliberately gone to a very dangerous part of the world, with the intention of experiencing the danger up close.
Now, I do recognize that, to some extent, journalists who go there are "doing it for us", because we all like to read news reports from the middle east(we couldn't have these discussions if we didn't). But still, these were decidedly non-random killings, and that sorta prevents me from registering the kind of horrified grief that some in the western media seem to think I should.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Yeah, I'm really not quite getting the media angst over the decapitation of these journalists.
Partially for the same reason why police are less than enthusiastic supporters of cop killers.
But it is important. Not killing journalists is an important value, tied into our respect for free and open discussion. The Islamic State aren't killing journalists just for kicks, they know the message they are sending.
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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
Posts: 1894 | From: Thessalonica | Registered: May 2004
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
posted by quetzalcoatl quote:
I think IS have been decapitating other Syrian rebels and Syrian soldiers for months - have the Western media made a fuss? I doubt it.
You need to widen your reading: The Times has carried reports of widespread atrocities - beheadings, enslavement, mass rape, crucifixions, etc - for months.
The BBC World Service has carried the same reports.
Granted much of the domestic media haven't given it top billing, but that says more about their news priorities - J Savile, Rolf Harris, Scottish referendum, etc - than what should be of concern in the world.
As for the prospects: An announcement has just been made of the official founding of Al-Qaeda in Asia, based around the Indian sub-continent, under the 'guidance' and leadership of Mullah Omar, leader of the Afghan Taliban - that's the chap some of the chattering classes in the UK think we should be negotiating with over our withdrawal from Afghanistan. His organisation has systematically targeted anyone 'guilty' of trying to provide or promote such crimes as female education, vaccination programmes, democratic elections, etc.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
posted by quetzalcoatl quote:
I think IS have been decapitating other Syrian rebels and Syrian soldiers for months - have the Western media made a fuss? I doubt it.
You need to widen your reading: The Times has carried reports of widespread atrocities - beheadings, enslavement, mass rape, crucifixions, etc - for months.
The BBC World Service has carried the same reports.
Granted much of the domestic media haven't given it top billing, but that says more about their news priorities - J Savile, Rolf Harris, Scottish referendum, etc - than what should be of concern in the world.
As for the prospects: An announcement has just been made of the official founding of Al-Qaeda in Asia, based around the Indian sub-continent, under the 'guidance' and leadership of Mullah Omar, leader of the Afghan Taliban - that's the chap some of the chattering classes in the UK think we should be negotiating with over our withdrawal from Afghanistan. His organisation has systematically targeted anyone 'guilty' of trying to provide or promote such crimes as female education, vaccination programmes, democratic elections, etc.
My understanding is that there is always negotiation unless there is an officially declared state of war*, so with bodies like the Taliban, Al-Qaeda and IS/ISIL, just as with the various Irish paramilitaries and their political backers, our people will be in contact with theirs. These talks might be face-to-face, they may be open, or they may not, but however evil they are, talks will be sought if they are not already underway.
*Even when there is a war there are special provisions.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I assume that politicians usually have back channels, even to terrorists, to find out if there is any prospect of a peaceful resolution. In Ireland, this worked; with the Taliban so far, has not worked. But no doubt there are contacts with them.
With IS, there are probably back channels to the Sunni tribes, who are supporting them, kind of asking, come on guys, are you going all the way with these people? Are you interested in some kind of internal Iraqui deal, in which you have quite a lot of power (and oil)?
Well, if they're not doing this, they're idiots. The intelligence people know full well that some of these tribes fought against AQ, so they are for turning again. But not with Maliki in power.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Some of us would question whether its accurate to say the back-channel talks "worked" vis-a-vis Northern Ireland.
Many concessions were made, some of which are only now coming to light, such as issuing so-called Comfort Letters to bombers and murderers.
Sure, in part of the province the situation is better than 20-30 years ago, but in frighteningly large parts of daily life there has been no change.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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