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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Marcion, Marcion, Marcion!
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Quote Barmen where it contradicts Jesus.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
You misunderstood me. The Barmen Declaration is an example of Barth and company recognizing the folly of the Christ of Culture paradigm. I thought that would be obvious from the fact Karl Barth is the primary author of The Barmen Declaration.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
As is Jesus' pacifism, humanism, socialism, feminism: all inclusive justice.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Your last post wasn't a complete thought.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Amen
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Glad that's settled.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Amen
Martin, if my memory serves, you were put on adminly notice to post with greater clarity. We hosts can be forgetful (and forgiving), but my advice is: don't assume the admins have forgotten, or will be indulgent.
What I suggest here is not a pithy response to this post from you along the lines of "Sir", but repentance, which as John Wimber explained it, means "you never do that again".
/hosting
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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W Hyatt
Shipmate
# 14250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Nobody likes Him Ad Orientem.
Whereas Jesus is loved.
I wonder why?
But Jesus is the God of the Old Testament - it's just a matter of what the nature of revelation is.
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A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.
Posts: 1565 | From: U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I apologize for the blithe assumption and the lack of clarity, of both of which I was consciously unaware.
I fail to see the relevance of the Barmen Declaration; Richard Niebuhr's Christ and Culture, yes. Hence my responses. Where in Barmen is the folly of Christ of Culture recognized? Where is that obvious?
As obvious as Jesus' Marcionism?
I followed the unobvious obviousness of Barmen contra Christ and Culture with that; the obvious obviousness of Jesus' Marcionism, which was followed by Beeswax Altar's non sequitur of that being 'incomplete', which I thought was ironic, i.e. my list wasn't long enough even therefore it was too long, I didn't realise it was just illogical.
The ultimate completing of things can be said with 'Amen'. Which is why I said it.
And neither is this discussion, which we need to start again as grown ups, just about Christ of Culture. Of, Against, Above, Transforming and In Paradox: all.
Jesus was OBVIOUSLY Marcionite. Or schizophrene.
If someone can faithfully, rationally lead me back to the darkness of squaring the circle of Jesus with the realpolitik God who demiurgically drowned, burned, electrocuted, plagued, assassinated, slaughtered or used His Chosen and Satan to do so as a warm up to how He'll be in the Apocalypse, I'll go forward with that.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
If someone can faithfully, rationally lead me back to the darkness of squaring the circle of Jesus with the realpolitik God who demiurgically drowned, burned, electrocuted, plagued, assassinated, slaughtered or used His Chosen and Satan to do so as a warm up to how He'll be in the Apocalypse, I'll go forward with that.
Well, a passaage I've always found interesting from the Gospels, and which may or may not provide a clue here...
Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?”
Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.
My take on that is Jesus is essentially saying...
"Okay, people were a bunch of savages back in OT days, so God[via Moses] had to take that into account when deciding what kind of laws to put in place. But, come on guys, we've made some progress since then, haven't we? So we should have laws more befitting the standards of decency to which we now aspire."
In which case, it wouldn't be that the deities changed between the OT and the NT, or even the nature of one deity. Rather, humanity changed, and the deity adjusted his approach to reflect that.
link
[ 09. August 2014, 15:10: Message edited by: Stetson ]
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
But Stetson, The Deity DIDN'T change! Just look at Him in the Apocalypse. Incarnate He wasn't well obviously. Not Himself.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
But Stetson, The Deity DIDN'T change! Just look at Him in the Apocalypse. Incarnate He wasn't well obviously. Not Himself.
Well, the Apocalypse is kinda like the big action-packed ending, with car chases, machine guns, and bikini-clad bimbos, that Hollywood producers like to tack onto an otherwise cerebral arthouse drama, to keep the alpha-males in the audience happy.
[ 09. August 2014, 15:40: Message edited by: Stetson ]
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
SOL!
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
But Stetson, The Deity DIDN'T change! Just look at Him in the Apocalypse.
Including the two places in Revelation where we're told that God will wipe away every tear (which is, of course, echoing Isaiah)? Or the part about the new heaven and the new earth?
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
So that makes the killing OK.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
So that makes the killing OK.
It makes the distinction you try to draw between the God of the OT (and of Revelation) and the God of the Gospels and of the NT (sans Revelation) an invalid one. God as loving and just and God as wrathful and judging can each be found in both the OT and the NT—and in the teachings of Jesus. Matthew 13?
quote:
Just as the weeds are collected and burned up with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will collect out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all evildoers, and they will throw them into the furnace of fire, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Let anyone with ears listen!
[ 09. August 2014, 22:54: Message edited by: Nick Tamen ]
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by Martin:
I fail to see the relevance of the Barmen Declaration; Richard Niebuhr's Christ and Culture, yes. Hence my responses. Where in Barmen is the folly of Christ of Culture recognized? Where is that obvious?
Liberal German Protestantism from 18th century forward was a clear example of the Christ of Culture archetype. Niebuhr used Ritschl as an example in his book. The Barmen Declaration was a response to the Nazi German Christians. In a nutshell, the German Christians sought to remove all the Jewish elements from Christianity and leave in its place a German Christianity. Of course, doing this meant disavowing the OT and much of the NT in favor of a Jesus interpreted through the lens of what they believed to be the best of their own culture.
Contemporary Marcionites are doing the same thing. They disregard the OT and much of the NT because it isn't palatable to their culture. They then create their own Jesus by taking what they like from the gospels, putting their own spin on it, and then disregarding the rest. Their Jesus will not be destructive as the Nazi Jesus. However, their Jesus will not be able to transform culture because their Jesus exists only to sanctify what they see as the best in their culture.
quote:
originally posted by Martin:
If someone can faithfully, rationally lead me back to the darkness of squaring the circle of Jesus with the realpolitik God who demiurgically drowned, burned, electrocuted, plagued, assassinated, slaughtered or used His Chosen and Satan to do so as a warm up to how He'll be in the Apocalypse, I'll go forward with that.
Establish a contradiction based on reason and scripture as a whole rather than feelings and emotion and I'll be happy to talk. Until then, I'm not going to repeat myself over and over again. Why waste my time?
quote:
originally posted by Martin:
So that makes the killing OK.
Yes, yes, it does.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Anadromously.
As someone said: Glad that's settled.
In other words, you can't.
Which is hard ball of me in the light of the articulate straw man proposition in the previous two paragraphs.
So the neo-orthodox believed in God the Killer? God the Pragmatist? That the Bible is basically a flat cookbook reflecting the accurate record of God engaging fully with people where they were, seeing that, raising that, in spades?
That the evolution of theology in literature in culture (the Bosch triptych comes to mind) that we see in the Bible, rising to transcendent light, is not sufficient until the miracle of Christ? That Love HAD to kill for picking up sticks on a Saturday, HAD to be homophobic AND changes His mind on all that, all for the greater good?
Or is He still homophobic?
To hide ones disposition behind 'reason' is ... human. And says it ALL really. If you wait for your heart to be changed by mere reason, Satan will be skating to work.
You feel OK about God the Killer. So did I as you know for 40 years. Whatever you do, DON'T pray 'Dominus illuminatio mea.'.
I felt a pulse of empathy there Altar.
Everything is redeemed.
Martin
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
I suppose I don't count as a Marcionite, then. (But I do like certain spiders (see prior post), so perhaps it's just as well.)
Some things in the OT I have trouble understanding, perhaps a LOT of trouble understanding, but I trust God to make it clear when we see each other face to face, and that all will indeed be well.
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Putting myself back where I was not so long ago, the loudest champion here of God the Killer by far, I used to argue that in the Resurrection we would all be together in paradise with the antediluvians (ten million OOM), the inhabitants of the Cities of the Plain (a thousand or so), the Egyptians killed by the mere hundreds of thousands in the Exodus, the Israelites who died by the million (BOY you do not want God on your side!) in Sinai, Amalekites (10Ks), sundry individuals who picked up sticks or touched a box or were new born to adulterers: the mere tens of millions killed by God OT THEN there's the handful who died NT, the million who died in the Jewish wars fulfilling the Apocalypse just in type and the BILLIONS in its final fulfilment THEN the billions upon billions more of Gog Magog at the end of the Millennium THEN the billions upon billions upon billions annihilated or just tortured forever and ever to get their minds right or just forever period amen ... we'd all be cool with that because we'd all - apart from those who wanted to be ash under our feet - be in paradise and how we got there would be a distant, fading childhood dream.
Because I saw the real realpolitik God (NOT a God of our universal culture of redemptive violence, Heaven forfend!) accurately reported from Eden to The New Heaven And The New Earth.
Chas, you're very sweet.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by Martin:
Anadromously.
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Oh well, I'll play.
Catadromously
quote:
originally posted by Martin:
As someone said: Glad that's settled.
Indeed
quote:
originally posted by Martin:
Which is hard ball of me in the light of the articulate straw man proposition in the previous two paragraphs.
I don't see a strawman. Care to point it out? Those prone to expressing themselves in vague, stream of conscious ramblings are prone to being misunderstood. However, when that happens, the fault is with those who express themselves in vague, stream of conscious ramblings.
quote:
originally posted by Martin:
So the neo-orthodox believed in God the Killer? God the Pragmatist? That the Bible is basically a flat cookbook reflecting the accurate record of God engaging fully with people where they were, seeing that, raising that, in spades?
The Neo-Orthodox didn't agree on much. The Barth-Brunner feud is legendary. However, the generic Neo-Orthodox view is that scripture contains the record of God's revelation of Godself to the world. Barth is responsible for the Barmen Declaration so I'll stick with him. Barth believed in God the judge. Barth was not a fundamentalist. I'm not either.
quote:
originally posted by Martin:
That the evolution of theology in literature in culture (the Bosch triptych comes to mind) that we see in the Bible, rising to transcendent light, is not sufficient until the miracle of Christ? That Love HAD to kill for picking up sticks on a Saturday, HAD to be homophobic AND changes His mind on all that, all for the greater good?
I'm not sure what point you are trying to make with this bit. I'll try to respond to what I think you are saying but no guarantees. Of course, Barth was Christocentric. Barth also believed that Jesus was the God of Israel incarnate. He specifically condemned Marcion and saw in Schleiermacher and Ritschl modern expressions of that ancient heresy. Like many Reformed theologians, Barth was concerned with biblical covenants. I've already explained several times how that applies to the last bit of your paragraph.
quote:
originally posted by Martin:
To hide ones disposition behind 'reason' is ... human. And says it ALL really. If you wait for your heart to be changed by mere reason, Satan will be skating to work.
You wanted to discuss this like adults. My toddler uses feelings and emotions in her rhetoric all the time. Well, she throws temper tantrums because I don't always do what she wants and when she wants me to do it.
quote:
originally posted by Martin:
You feel OK about God the Killer. So did I as you know for 40 years. Whatever you do, DON'T pray 'Dominus illuminatio mea.'.
Doesn't matter if I'm OK with the God presented in scripture and tradition or not. I worship the God that is not the God of my own creation. I could build an idol of wood if I wanted to worship a God of my own creation.
quote:
originally posted by Martin:
I felt a pulse of empathy there Altar.
Thanks for that Martin!
quote:
originally posted by Martin:
Everything is redeemed.
And so it goes
Now you know the rest of the story
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Then you worship a God of someone else's creation. A lot of Bronze Age someone elses.
I realise you have no concept of progress, for you life has not improved since then, for blacks, for gays, for the poor, for women, it's even more arbitrary and confusing as you have to shoe horn Jesus in to that Bronze Age clog.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Apparently, rhetoric has progressed to the point that begging the question now counts as a reasoned argument. ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Jude
Shipmate
# 3033
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Posted
I think I've called certain people Marcionists in the past. Whether or not they really are Marcionists is open to question, I admit - I was too hasty in judging them, as they were too hasty in judging me (ignore this phrase for now, it's not relevant to this discussion).
Actually, the people I refer to were very much fans on the OT God and wanted to show that He is still God in the NT. I think that I owe them an apology for classifying them wrongly, in fact they were Dualists - i.e. people who believe in a good God and an evil anti-god (i.e. the devil) who are of more or less equal status.
Posts: 233 | From: A town with four parishes | Registered: Jul 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
You win mate.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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