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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: State-run Christian belief system
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
I know that the Roman Catholic Church had significant state input into what was acceptable if Christians were to be allowed to function legally in that state. And many other states have attempted to set up a "Christian" church which also satisfied the needs of the state. Anglicans, Lutherans, and Russian Orthodox spring to mind as clear examples.
Now we have the Chinese setting up a formal approach to allowing specific forms of Christian practise within their state.
Two questions: 1. Does anyone know more about what forms of Christian belief and operation are acceptable to an atheist state?
2. What are the chances that this official form will have any particular effect on the beliefs and practises of actual Christians?
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Pre-cambrian
Shipmate
# 2055
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Posted
OK. I'll bite. My guess is that an atheist state's attitude will depend on practice, not belief. During the Great Patriotic War when Stalin removed many of the shackles from Orthodoxy the focus was all on opening up the churches to get the babushkas on side and nothing to do with theology.
Basically they will want a church that bows the knee and can be cited as a support for the state. Probably a mutual support. And frankly this is nothing different to the relationship between the church and christian states. Both go into the relationship to get as much out of it as they can. Historically the church has been willing to prostitute anything to get its hands on the levers of state power. The church may now claim to be counter-cultural but I wouldn't trust it to give up the opportunity to exercise its old-style power if given the chance.
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"We cannot leave the appointment of Bishops to the Holy Ghost, because no one is confident that the Holy Ghost would understand what makes a good Church of England bishop."
Posts: 2314 | From: Croydon | Registered: Dec 2001
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Does anyone know more about what forms of Christian belief and operation are acceptable to an atheist state?
I'll throw out an answer to this one - any forms will be acceptable which don't run the risk of disrupting the governmental / political status quo and which leave the adherents as loyal, quiet and hard-working citizens. Basically, I think it's the equivalent of telling the Christians to say 'Caesar is Lord', and IMO their response should be 'Jesus is Lord'.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
I'll throw out an answer to this one - any forms will be acceptable which don't run the risk of disrupting the governmental / political status quo and which leave the adherents as loyal, quiet and hard-working citizens.
I read a book by a German historian whose specialty was the Nazi period. He said the Nazis' main objection to Christianity was not doctrine, but the fact that people were supposed to respond to their individual consciences.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
I know a missionary who has current contacts in China. The next time I see him I'll try to remember to pick his brain about these issues. Unfortunately, I'll only see him next in October. If I learn anything significant then, I'll start a new thread.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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*Leon*
Shipmate
# 3377
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Posted
While I'm not an expert, there already are long-established official churches in China. They exist in both protestant and catholic* variants. In both cases, there are also significant numbers of christians who worship in illegal churches. I think that the numbers of christians at illegal churches is broadly similar to the number at state churches.
So, whatever you think about state run belief systems, this isn't introducing one but is improving the theological capabilities of one that has existed for some time.
It could be that the state churches themselves have decided that they ought to do more theology, in the same way that non-Chinese churches of a comparable size do. It could be that the state feels that the theology that's come out of their previous attempts at control have been insufficiently good, and they need to up their game.
*The 'catholic' church rejects papal infallibility and accepts that the state can interfere in the appointment of bishops and so on, so some people here might think they're not proper catholics. If so, I think the vatican agrees with you.
Posts: 831 | From: london | Registered: Oct 2002
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
You can't come up with a single answer to the Question "What forms of Christian worship are acceptable to an Atheist state?" any more than you could for the question "What other forms of Christian worship are acceptable to a Christian state?" or "What other forms of Christian worship are acceptable to a non-Christian religious state?"
The answers range from "none", to "any as long you pay taxes and obey the laws" to "any that are older than the state religion" to "most, but not those seen as national churches of a non-friendly nation to "most, but not those heretics that are the church closest to the state church".
It also requires the definition, does a nation like the U.S. with no established religion mean it's an atheist state?
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
It would seem that the US, as an official "church-separated-from-state" country has the largest amount of religious meddling in its political affairs, compared to the "developed" world, while places like the UK, with an established church involved in the largest of its partner states, have an almost-atheist state. The US, of course, has not fought an all-out religious war internally, unlike most European countries, which may explain the difference.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
It would seem that the US, as an official "church-separated-from-state" country has the largest amount of religious meddling in its political affairs, compared to the "developed" world, while places like the UK, with an established church involved in the largest of its partner states, have an almost-atheist state. The US, of course, has not fought an all-out religious war internally, unlike most European countries, which may explain the difference.
Honestly I'm tempted to say it's because, along with some healthier and saner religious groups who were being truly persecuted, the US received the craziest and most harmful religious groups as well, who wanted to make some kind of "perfect" religious society here in the US, and that mindset has helped form a rather false and dangerous notion of the US as this unique country literally formed by Divine fiat. The current toxic religious "Christian" groups in the US who are connected with notions like Dominionism, and who actually treat July 4 as if it is the day God started a new thing, even that the US is like some sort of special new "chosen people"--who treat "American exceptionalism" as an actual religious thing--I believe those people are scary and we have to be very careful not to let them take over and make our country a theocracy.
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Point of information, the US has never had a church separated from state policy. While the US Constitution states:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...,"
it does not prohibit religious entities from influencing the government. The Civil Rights movement was largely a religious movement in the US. Religious groups became the conscience of the nation in regards to racial issues back in the 50's to 70's. Religious leaders still speak up to the refugee crisis in the United States.
About the only thing that is prevented is for a religious body to endorse a candidate for an office, though many have done so in the past.
Governments should avoid religious interference, but there is no where in the US constitution or the UN Human Rights Declaration that says religious bodies should not try to influence governmental outcomes.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
Second response on the "atheist state" thing: being formally atheist or perceived atheist is actually a religious statement just as much as "Christian state" or "Muslim state" would be.
A Christian state could easily disallow non-Christian entities from functioning (as has been proved in certain states of the Union in the past); so could a Muslim state, as we see in ISIS right now; and an atheist state could try to prevent any form of religious activity (remember Stalin, or 1984?)
Not being a "Christian state" per se doesn't mean that God has been ruled illegal (as if he cares), it just means that the Christians can't prevent the others from doing their own thing.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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