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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: 23 minutes in hell
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Steve Langton
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# 17601
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Posted
by Belle Ringer;
quote:
quote:
quote:
there is an issue of justice...'paying for their sins'.
Punishment is not justice. If I rob you, you are out money, you are unhappy. If justice means I go to prison, I am unhappy, too. We now have two unhappy people instead of one, the world is worse off! How is increasing total pain "justice"?
I carefully used the phrase 'paying for their sins' to indicate that I do not believe in a merely arbitrary and negative 'retributive punishment' such as we often see in this world ('going to prison' for example, which does not benefit the original victim). I am conceiving a situation in which the wrongdoer is held responsible to pay in a situation more akin to payment of debt. I believe that once we accept a supernatural/beyond-this-world element, God's justice can achieve things our mere human justice cannot (though imperfect human justice may still be better than nothing in this life).
The problem is, of course, that to the wrongdoer determined to carry on in his own selfish way, God's healing and purifying work may appear to be 'torture/torment/etc' and destructive rather than reparative.
I think I would currently hold a view of 'ultimate annihilation for all practical purposes' as the fate of the ultimately unrepentant.
Posts: 2245 | From: Stockport UK | Registered: Mar 2013
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
There are many, many different types of Paganism (and yes it needs the capital letter - it is a proper religion). It's not the same as witchcraft or Wicca, but neither are they mutually exclusive - many people follow two or all of them. Some believe in reincarnation, but most I've come across are followers of Norse or Hellenic deities and do not believe in reincarnation.
I'd say the capital letter depends--paganism can be a broad category which includes Wicca, Asatru, the various reconstructionist groups, etc. but some self-identified Pagans can spell it with a capital P. There can be paganism contrasted with monotheism, and Paganism contrasted with, say, Lutheranism.
Most of the ones I know are Wiccans, myself. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Belle Ringer
I really, REALLY hope ... and pray right here right now - Father - that you find a broader, deeper fellowship, not abandoning the one you're with necessarily. But one on your doorstep. A community church, one that serves the needy, bears burdens. One that has inclusive, liberal members, inclusive of conservatives.
I know, WE know, my wife and I, how lonely it can be, for years in a large, inner-city commuter church. A charismatic-evangelical one. I ran the outreach to the hungry. Still go. When I ran it I was powerless - don't ask - to stop other volunteers showing a bizarre video, for weeks it seemed, of a guy's vision of heaven and hell after being stung by a box jelly fish.
Everyone loved it. I despaired. As I did of ever being able to talk about any of this in a church of 750 people.
We now go across the road, to an English village church, we have more friends than we know what to do with, a house group, a men's group, barbecues, we walk to each others homes. The gay couple are leaving for pastures new but I hope to see them this weekend at Greenbelt for Brian McLaren and Nadia Bolz-Weber.
There IS space out there beyond the constraints of literalism where Jesus meets too.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Arminian
Shipmate
# 16607
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Posted
There are 3 words for Hell in the NT. They are not the same place. I doubt anyone is yet in the 'lake of fire' or rubbish tip Jesus spoke once of.
In the Jellyfish man's NDE (Ian McCormack) he was in a dark place of waiting, before he got pulled out. I don't recall him mentioning demons gleefully punishing people in prison cells ! Probably something like Hades. The 23 minutes in hell seems like Dante's inferno which is what makes me more suspicious. This is not a common NDE description of 'hell'.
Most NDE'ers are very altruistic as a result of their experience. Ian McCormack does not make money off his talks or resources. For example he states on his website :
"We do not personally sell or handle the distribution of my salvation testimony. However, we know of some ministries that do. We do not receive any royalties from the sale of these videos, books or tapes, and do not set a price on them. There is NO copyright … which means you can freely copy them for friends."
Which makes me a lot less skeptical of his motives than some other NDE accounts that are at odds with most of the other accounts, and are made by people who are also making a shed load of money out of their story...
Posts: 157 | From: London | Registered: Aug 2011
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
We now go across the road, to an English village church, we have more friends than we know what to do with, a house group, a men's group, barbecues, we walk to each others homes. The gay couple are leaving for pastures new but I hope to see them this weekend at Greenbelt for Brian McLaren and Nadia Bolz-Weber.
There IS space out there beyond the constraints of literalism where Jesus meets too.
So you've moved church, finally! The new place sounds more suitable for you. I remember when you said that the more liberal churches weren't viable, but clearly they are, in the right areas.
I hope your old church community was gracious when you left.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
The new ain't liberal! It's just wiser, broader, inclusive: the epitome of Anglican. The former isn't, being char-evo and no, grace was lacking, all round I'm afraid, but I still work with them most Fridays.
[ 20. August 2014, 21:08: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Belle Ringer
I really, REALLY hope ... and pray right here right now - Father - that you find a broader, deeper fellowship, not abandoning the one you're with necessarily. But one on your doorstep. A community church, one that serves the needy, bears burdens. One that has inclusive, liberal members, inclusive of conservatives.
Thank you Martin. This group's assumed theology and topic interests narrowed with change of leadership - I've seen that happen in churches, too, new guy/gal has a different viewpoint or agenda that some love and others find uncomfortable. I've sensed it's time to look around; well functioning small groups are usually informally organic and don't advertise for others to come join them, but God can open ways.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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PDA
Apprentice
# 16531
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
The Bible study bunch watched a DVD, 23 minutes in hell, about a supposed near death experience-like trip to hell, the DVD is also on YouTube. I was having fun trying to catch all the unBiblical imagery and mis-used verses (including his translating every Old Testament reference to the place of the dead as Hell which he equates with the iron-barred burning-hot demon-infested place he "visited").
At the end, my reaction to the portrayal of a god who arranges for some of his sensate creatures to spend endless forever being tortured in multiple ways beyond the worse dealings by human despots, beyond the imagination of Stephen King, my reaction was "that's not the God I know." Not even a family resemblance. If I thought that was God, I would have no admiration for or desire to imitate god!
What really intrigued me - several in the group loved it, want to buy copies to show it to their unsaved friends.
Do people really think a person who is unsure if there is any god would be attracted to a god who is portrayed as the kind of personality we would judge in any human as criminal or insane?
Has fear of hell ever converted anyone to believe in a God of love your neighbor?
I'm not wanting to debate here "does hell exist" but the more immediate this-world question of whether non-believers in god get convinced by Bible spouting videos that hell is real, and convert to theism as a result?
I firmly believe that if there were such a place it would be freezing cold rather than burning hot.
Posts: 40 | From: Essex | Registered: Jul 2011
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
The video "23 minutes in hell" is an interesting study in proof-texting to the extreme (in my opinion). Assuming he really did have a nightmare (as opposed to discovering hell sells and making it all up to get on the circuit), he did a lot of looking for support in the Bible, and "finding" it.
For example, like most supposed reports of hell I've seen, he's got reptilian looking tormenters (I'm feeling sorry for God's reptiles being accused of demonic appearance). His are 12 to 13 feet tall, he want's Biblical justification for such big creatures, so goes back to that odd statement in Genesis about sons of God breeding with daughters of man and there were giants in the earth, as proof that 13 foot creatures are real - as if the women were birthing reptiles? Heck, we've got taller creatures right here - giraffes for example, but I guess they don't look as denomic as over-sized reptiles.
He also says "most commentators" agree the "sons of God" are demons. I was under the impression most commentators say "don't know what it means."
He's desperate for flaming hell to be all over the Bible so every mention in the OT of the grave he translates "Hell."
How does one prove such things wrong or at least far from certainly right? Sigh.
I learned a couple decades ago a person can say more wrong in 5 minutes than I can research in 5 hours. How many commentators would you have to read to verify or disprove any one of his many "most commentators agree" statements? Not worth the effort, and wouldn't convince those who like what he says.
A free course I took on line said we make decisions based on emotions, then add facts to justify our decisions. (It was a short course and may have over-stated to make it's points quickly.) Raging eternal hell obviously has emotional appeal for some people or these books/DVDs wouldn't sell so well to people who do NOT respond by dropping all else to help "unsaved" neighbors escape the tortures portrayed, but instead go buy the next DVD on hell.
Maybe it's the appeal of adrenaline? Daily life can get dull, fear (from a safe distance) raises adrenaline which makes us feel alive?
I'm done with Hell for now, but the discussion and my resulting research did turn me into a universalist - God wins, totally (not just partially), all creation are redeemed, all nations healed by the leaves of the tree. Interesting how sometimes preaching gets the opposite effect from what was intended!
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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The5thMary
Shipmate
# 12953
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Posted
ISTM, people "go" to Hell of their own volition. God doesn't "send" them there. I've thought a lot about this subject over the years and have come to my own way of thinking on it. If I lived my entire life as a selfish, evil/nasty person: Gossiping endlessly and always looking to cut other people down, undermine them at every turn, back stab them, lie about it, etc. etc and I see no problem with this and live my life accordingly, when I die I'm certainly not going to be all that thrilled to be in the presence of a God who is complete love, outpouring joy, peace, goodwill, etc. I would find that repugnant and want to be as far away from that as possible. I would want to be with others of my "kind", i.e. the gossipers, the liars, the thieves, the backbiters, the killers of other people's spirits and their lives. So, maybe during my long life of living in this fashion, someone tried to turn me away from this path, tried to tell me about a God of Love and Mercy. If I had no inclination towards goodness, I'd probably laugh in the person's face. Now, if this same person told me that I was headed for Hell unless I turned away from my sinful life, would I change or would I scoff at them? What if, on the other hand, I did a lot of these things but I knew they were wrong and I had this vague uneasiness concerning Hell? What if those well-meaning folks kept reminding me of Hell?
To make this long-ass post a tad bit shorter, I will admit that I was in a very bad way, back in my twenties. I stole, lied, cheated, back-stabbed, gossiped...I was a nasty little piece of work. What changed me wasn't the threat of Hell but someone (a friend who is a nun) who loved me, in spite of myself, saw the good in me and was Jesus for me when the very name of Jesus made me want to either run and hide or give Him the finger. Yes, I really was that immature. So, no threats of hellfire brought me back into the "fold". It was Jesus, acting through my friend who loved me enough just as I was and helped me to want to change my ways to conform to His ways.
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God gave me my face but She let me pick my nose.
Posts: 3451 | From: Tacoma, WA USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
And so it will be for James Foley's butcher in the next life.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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