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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Salvation by "charitable works" vs "assent to the 'right' doctrines"
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
Over on "Ecclesiantics » Inclusive language hymns," I saw this...
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
The implication for me is that the time it won't matter is sometime in the future.
When I needed a neighbour were you there,
against
And the creed and the colour won't matter.
The question is 'when' won't it matter?
In the context of judgment - inasmuch as ye did it unto the least of these, is it correct to say that the creed we follow will not matter at all?
I really have to resist the idea of salvation by charitable works and it doesn't matter what you believe, as long as you were nice to people you'll pass muster..
It sounds better to me than salvation by assent to the "right" doctrines.
... and I thought that perhaps this deserved its own thread.
I have known people (I do not mean Mudfrog here) who really did seem to believe that assenting to the correct precise theology was the most important thing to prove or disprove one's salvation.
I don't agree with this, and I have to say that I think if taken too far it becomes a sort of Gnosticism--salvation by knowing the correct theology, rather than being rooted in Christ's love.
Thoughts, anyone?
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
I seem to have asked roughly the same question in my OP on the "Jesus or Pharisee" thread, describing Barna research re actions and attitudes.
Are these two threads distinct enough, or should they be combined?
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
If you say "Jesus is my Lord, Master, Boss, Leader" but commonly behave in ways contradicting that statement, is the statement true? Can you really go your own way while claiming to be following your leader? None of us are perfect but some don't seem to give a thought to trying. Claiming Jesus is Lord while devoting your life to intentionally ripping off others proves you do NOT accept Jesus as your lord. Actions speak louder than words.
The problem with actions is attitudes. If you are trying to earn your way to God's approval, you are trying to manipulate God, force God's hand, which is a kind of claim of superiority, making demands on God. That's the opposite of responding to love with love.
So the problem with "actions speak louder than words" is sometimes we see only the superficial actions, and judge a person "good" when they are actually self-serving instead of loving or generous.
Someone who lives in a way motivated by caring, even for "the least of these" - kindred spirits appreciate each other. Jesus admired faith found in unlikely people, even non-Jews.
Jesus came to heal and restore, not to devise technical limits on how many of us he gets to enjoy the company of forever.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Highfive
Shipmate
# 12937
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
The problem with actions is attitudes. If you are trying to earn your way to God's approval, you are trying to manipulate God, force God's hand, which is a kind of claim of superiority, making demands on God. That's the opposite of responding to love with love.
I've wondered, if something great is done for God's glory alone, as so many Christian songs profess, does it have a greater chance of succeeding than if it was done for any other motive?
I heard a sermon at a Pentecostal church about the speaker attending a two-week conference in Papua New Guinea. At the start of the conference, it was announced that the truck supplying the food was stuck in mud at the foot of the mountain. As people wondered what to do, the speaker asked what supplies were available at the conference itself. Just a few fish and a bag of rice. The speaker asked these to be put in the fridge and prayed for provision from the Lord. For the next 14 days, there was always enough fish and rice to feed all the attendees at the conference.
This could be seen as an outright fib, but if it isn't, it does show that the speaker put the Lord to the test and He responded because it showed that He did it. The superiority still belongs to the Lord.
Posts: 111 | From: Brisbane | Registered: Aug 2007
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
I seem to have asked roughly the same question in my OP on the "Jesus or Pharisee" thread, describing Barna research re actions and attitudes.
Are these two threads distinct enough, or should they be combined?
Given the synchronicity, and your suggestion, I've closed your thread and put a link to this one.
/hosting
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
It's not an either or thing, is it. I would think both are important.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
prove or disprove one's salvation
Here is the wrong turn. One doesn't prove or disprove one's salvation. At that terrible day, the only possible prayer is to join with the Publican, Kyrie eleison, to join with the disciples in the boat on the Galilean sea, Save us! Nothing else will do.
Salvation by "charitable works" vs "assent to the 'right' doctrines"?
This is also grabbing the wrong end of the stick.
Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. He is the Lawgiver.
There is an objective truth, an essential reality, a Law, by which the cosmos operates. Elements of that Law are impassibility, temperance, continence, detachment from things, compunction, joy, work, gentleness, patience, fear of God, love of God, love of neighbor, and, above all, humility, which is a sober judgement in all things, a recognition of one's limits, weakness, powerlessness, and ignorance—a hatred of one's own will. Fail to align our hearts with this Law and we are lost.
Practice this Law, this doctrine, and the works will follow.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
If salvation was based on getting the correct theology or in performing works of righteousness, we are all screwed.
Because no one gets everything right theologically, and no one is ever perfect. We sin both in wrong thinking and wrongdoing.
Salvation then is based purely and solely on the grace of God. That is where I agree with the Reformers.
What I disagree with some Reformers is their tendency to only think of grace in terms of justification.
So I believe that salvation is based on divine grace, but this divine grace is also active in sanctification and purification.
As we live under grace, we are daily being transformed by grace, so our intellects are constantly being enlightened and our wills are being transformed so that we bring forth the fruit of good works.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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Stejjie
Shipmate
# 13941
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
If salvation was based on getting the correct theology or in performing works of righteousness, we are all screwed.
Because no one gets everything right theologically, and no one is ever perfect. We sin both in wrong thinking and wrongdoing.
Salvation then is based purely and solely on the grace of God. That is where I agree with the Reformers.
What I disagree with some Reformers is their tendency to only think of grace in terms of justification.
So I believe that salvation is based on divine grace, but this divine grace is also active in sanctification and purification.
As we live under grace, we are daily being transformed by grace, so our intellects are constantly being enlightened and our wills are being transformed so that we bring forth the fruit of good works.
Yes I'd agree with this pretty much entirely. The problem with saying it's all about faith is that it can be reduced to a kind of purely intellectual matter of accepting the right beliefs about God and Jesus. The problem with works saying it's all about works (IMHO) is how many works are "enough" to be saved - can we ever be "good enough"? (There's also the thing in Paul about salvation not being by works to rule out any kind of boasting).
The problem with both of them is they forget where it starts, with God's grace. Salvation, however we understand that term (and I'd agree with the critique that it can be seen too much as just about justification - I think too often it's only seen as being about getting to heaven, rather than to do with this life) comes because acts graciously and lovingly towards, ultimately through Jesus Christ.
Faith and works are the ways we receive and respond to that grace. As I see it, they are utterly inseperable: as James reminds us, faith without works is dead (and I actually think Paul would've agreed with him); but the faith part - in the senses of both believing and trusting - is crucial too, because it's through faith that we realise all this happens because of God and through Christ Jesus, not just through our own good works.
So, the answer to the thread title is "Neither: salvation by grace".
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A not particularly-alt-worshippy, fairly mainstream, mildly evangelical, vaguely post-modern-ish Baptist
Posts: 1117 | From: Urmston, Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2008
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stejjie:
So, the answer to the thread title is "Neither: salvation by grace".
Leviticus 18:5 says "keep my decrees and laws, for the man who obeys them will live by them".
Which raises the tantalising question of whether it was ever theoretically possible to be saved by obedience to the law under the Old Covenant (discussed, for instance, in this book, which starts with a young John Piper asking Daniel Fuller about that verse as quoted in Galatians).
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Sure, it's pretty clear from the NT that simply assenting to the 'right things' isn't sufficient ...
Nor, apparently, is necessarily doing what seem to the right things ...
Matt:7:22
'Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?'
http://biblehub.com/matthew/7-22.htm
That's a pretty scary verse however we cut it.
On the 'creed and the colour and the name won't matter, were you there' ... well, that's in the context of 'when I needed a neighbour.'
It hasn't got anything to do with believing the right or wrong things but caring for people irrespective of who they are.
Christ told the parable of the Good Samaritan in response to the question, 'Who is my neighbour?'
That doesn't mean that doctrine and 'right belief' isn't important. It means that simply knowing and believing the 'right things' aren't the big be all and end all and should be accompanied by works of mercy.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stejjie
The problem with saying it's all about faith is that it can be reduced to a kind of purely intellectual matter of accepting the right beliefs about God and Jesus.
Unfortunately, the word 'faith' is ambiguous. It can mean intellectual assent or it can mean trust. The faith that saves is trust.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Jesus saves.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Matt:7:22
'Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?'
http://biblehub.com/matthew/7-22.htm
That's a pretty scary verse however we cut it.
In light of the chapter that prededes this which warns of false prophets, I interpret Matt 7:22 as referring to the same group of people. There are many people today who would point to their public ministry as evidence that they follow Christ, while the reality is that they have a rap sheet of misdeeds and false teachings behind it.
As to the question in the OP, I do wonder about people who behave as Christians but aren't actually Christians. That is, someone raised in a Christian family, who intellectually accepts that salvation is through Christ, and goes through the motions, but does not in his or her heart actually have faith. I know some people like this and I'm torn between the idea that they should "fake it to make it" or that they might just be wasting their time entirely if we are saved through faith.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
So now is the only day of salvation?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
There is the whole Romans 2 thing, though, SeekingSister which does imply some kind of 'wider hope' - depending on how you interpret it of course.
C S Lewis is good on that sort of thing.
I sometimes wonder what God would 'prefer' - if we can put it in those terms - someone who says the right things and believes all the right things in a tick-box sense yet who doesn't live according to those principles ... or someone who doesn't have a clue what they believe but who lives a life that is closer in all manner of ways to the one the first person is supposed to be living ...
I'm not sure there's any definitive answer to some of this ... 'Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?'
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Stejjie
Shipmate
# 13941
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Stejjie:
So, the answer to the thread title is "Neither: salvation by grace".
Leviticus 18:5 says "keep my decrees and laws, for the man who obeys them will live by them".
Which raises the tantalising question of whether it was ever theoretically possible to be saved by obedience to the law under the Old Covenant (discussed, for instance, in this book, which starts with a young John Piper asking Daniel Fuller about that verse as quoted in Galatians).
Interesting (and another book added to my Amazon Wishlist courtesy of the Ship - drat!). My understanding is that it's not so much that they were saved by the Law - they were saved from captivity by God - but that obedience to the Law was the proper response to this and the mark of being part of the people of God. Ie, it wasn't that you followed the Law in order to get in as much as once you were in, you were expected to follow the Law. However, my OT knowledge is shameful and I'm sure someone will correct me...
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by Stejjie
The problem with saying it's all about faith is that it can be reduced to a kind of purely intellectual matter of accepting the right beliefs about God and Jesus.
Unfortunately, the word 'faith' is ambiguous. It can mean intellectual assent or it can mean trust. The faith that saves is trust.
To a point, I agree; and I did say I meant both as believing and trusting - not just faith as understanding/believing. I'd argue, though, that they're actually inseparable: to trust someone implies that you believe something about them. In the case of Jesus, the early church came to believe that Jesus was the Messiah, the Son of God, God incarnate - and trusted Him because of that. I think faith as just intellectual belief is pretty worthless, but I don't think faith as trust can survive without it.
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A not particularly-alt-worshippy, fairly mainstream, mildly evangelical, vaguely post-modern-ish Baptist
Posts: 1117 | From: Urmston, Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2008
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
I don't agree with this, and I have to say that I think if taken too far it becomes a sort of Gnosticism--salvation by knowing the correct theology, rather than being rooted in Christ's love.
I agree with this. I think belief is important only insofar as it leads to ammedment of life. After all, satan and the fallen angels know who Christ is, and what He did, but they won't bend the knee and obey! "If ye love me, keep my commandments." And the most important commandment is that we love one another as He has loved us(John 15:12). Perhaps none of us does this as well as we should, so we need to acknowlwdge our sins, seek God's forgiveness and tyy again. And again. It's probably necessary to believe that Jesus spoke the words of eternal life, so we seek to follow Him, but I don't see a literal belief in everything written in Scripture or taught by the Church as being salvific, apart from the effects it has on our lives.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I sometimes wonder what God would 'prefer' - if we can put it in those terms - someone who says the right things and believes all the right things in a tick-box sense yet who doesn't live according to those principles ... or someone who doesn't have a clue what they believe but who lives a life that is closer in all manner of ways to the one the first person is supposed to be living ...
We have a parable close to this - the one who said yes but didn't do the work, the other who said no but did do the work.
Paul says all nature teaches - in cultures that haven't heard the name Jesus, some speak a "spiritual language" that doesn't use the words of the "Christian language" but parallels the morality/ethics/it's about love not about accumulation of fame or power or wealth.
(I am not saying all religions are alike, all gods are the One God; I am saying many cultures have found some of the truths Jesus taught.)
Most of my atheist friends are (in my opinion) right to reject the demonic personality they were taught under the name "Jesus."
It's not about whether you use the right syllables, it's about heart attitude, and that shows in the things you pursue doing.
If you are feeding the hungry and doing miracles of healing because you are planning to make demands on God "see what I did, you owe me big rewards," or because you are donating in a way that will get you publicity and more business than the donation costs (donation as part of the advertising budget really), or you have figured out getting up on stage and entertaining people with a few miracles (fake or real) will bring in enough donations to get you a mansion and a private jet, or you are "feeding the hungry" by providing them with sweatshop jobs at below minimum wage (and threatening to report for deportation any who dare complain) - or ...
It's not just about feeding the poor, important as that is, it's about why. The poor who take your offered food know whether you are doing it for them or for you, and despise being "used" even while they eat the food.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Certainly in my experience, the more heavily Calvinist churches have a tendency to make faith into a work!
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
So I believe that salvation is based on divine grace,
Agree 100%
quote:
... but this divine grace is also active in sanctification and purification.
As are works. We don't wait for God to kick us before we do good works. Our doing good works is part and parcel of what brings about our sanctification and purification.
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
So now is the only day of salvation?
I assume you know you are paraphrasing St. Paul.
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I sometimes wonder what God would 'prefer' - if we can put it in those terms - someone who says the right things and believes all the right things in a tick-box sense yet who doesn't live according to those principles ... or someone who doesn't have a clue what they believe but who lives a life that is closer in all manner of ways to the one the first person is supposed to be living ...
We have a parable close to this - the one who said yes but didn't do the work, the other who said no but did do the work.
Also the Good Samaritan. And St. Paul saying that the gentiles who do the works without knowing why have the law written in their heart, or whatever the exact wording is.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
What else could I possibly be alluding to mousethief?
We think that salvation can be discerned from Bronze-Iron-Classical Age texts about a transcendent man of that culture, as works either, or, and words. Which is all works. All our legalistic, mechanistic, soulless check-listing.
As I said, Jesus saves. A tautology I know. That's what He means. Salvation. Our grasp (HA!) of which is revealed in how we feel, think, speak, write, act.
Here.
Found wanting.
Guilty.
That there is NO difference in salvific status between us and James Foley's killer and his slaving, raping, murdering peers is obvious. Their bearable judgement awaits. The errancy of our view is as bad as Paul inerrantly said: we see through, in a glass VERY darkly indeed. With hundreds of thousands of years of terrified, ignorant, weak monkey consciousness.
Salvation is as salvation does. Now.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
As I said, Jesus saves. A tautology I know. That's what He means...
Salvation is as salvation does. Now.
As in "father, forgive them" before anyone got around to repenting? ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
One huge barrier to believing that when Jesus said "forgive" he meant them too, not just us, is the common human desire for revenge, "it's not fair that he get away with his bad deeds" even while we beg for mercy for our own. "God forgive me, be merciful even though I know I don't deserve it, but God throw the book at them because they deserve punishment."
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
"God forgive me, be merciful even though I know I don't deserve it, but God throw the book at them because they deserve punishment."
Yes, there's more than enough of that going around, and has been since the beginning ("the woman you gave to me, she tempted me!"). Sadly.
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
What else could I possibly be alluding to mousethief?
It's grossly unfair to expect someone else to read one's mind. With some people it's hardly conceivable.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
You're not anyone.
Awareness of salvation motivates charitable works and assenting to the 'right' doctrines.
Even if we are deceived in to reversing that causality.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Kwesi
Shipmate
# 10274
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Posted
quote:
Stejjie: The problem with saying it's all about faith is that it can be reduced to a kind of purely intellectual matter of accepting the right beliefs about God and Jesus.
Moo: Unfortunately, the word 'faith' is ambiguous. It can mean intellectual assent or it can mean trust. The faith that saves is trust.
I completely agree. ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif) As I understand it the Greek word 'pistis' can be rendered as either belief or trust in English, and in this context, apart from a belief that Jesus is trustworthy, it's difficult to see how it could be other than trust. Of course, it has been understood as 'belief', and as such lays the foundation of sectarianism and religious persecution.
Posts: 1641 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005
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Highfive
Shipmate
# 12937
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
I think I agree here with... well, with everyone who's posted thus far.
Really? I was hoping to be shot down in flames and told that forming a human chain to the truck would be a more faithful approach.
Posts: 111 | From: Brisbane | Registered: Aug 2007
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
It might be as well to define what being saved means as a prelude to anything else. For me being saved was digging my way into my own personal Hell and finding God there waiting for me to bring me back. As has been observed here my theology has not been thoroughly vetted against the "Book" so it is just possible that, at least for me, being saved does not include having the correct set of beliefs.
Beyond that Jesus always seemed to be saying "follow me." I have never read where Jesus said "Adopt a complex belief system and make darn sure it is correct so that you can be saved." Neither have I read Jesus saying "A great side benefit of a belief system is that you get to judge others by how far they fall short of your belief system." Perhaps I have missed both of those statements as they seem to be quite popular in some circles.
My experience is that following Jesus means loving my God and my fellow children of God (at least trying) as much as Jesus does. Loving others and loving God seems to broaden and deepen my experience of accessing Heaven here on Earth.
While I am very human and do not expect to experience Heaven in all its glory during my physical lifetime; what I have now is a peace and a serenity that I have never experienced before.
To me then, the question of salvation by faith or by works is a false dichotomy. Salvation comes from God as a grace we can all experience if we will. Faith follows experiencing God. Works follow faith and experiencing God because God's love demands of you that you share it and works can be a good way of sharing God's love.
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
![[Axe murder]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif)
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Highfive:
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
I think I agree here with... well, with everyone who's posted thus far.
Really? I was hoping to be shot down in flames and told that forming a human chain to the truck would be a more faithful approach.
Okay, I meant more in terms of the whole "faith vs. works" thing, not in terms of the truck and the fish. ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Leviticus 18:5 says "keep my decrees and laws, for the man who obeys them will live by them".
Since most of the "decrees and laws" are about doing things or doing them in a particular way then they become works
The preface to every blessing speaks of God "who has sanctified us by his commandments"
Orthopraxis, you know.
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
The answer is neither or both. The cause of Salvation is of course the Christological event and the only direct outcome of that is the work of the Holy Spirit in an individuals life. However, the holy spirit is above all concerned with the transformation of the will. Both assent to right doctrine and charitable works can be outcomes of this activity, but you can with both get type 1 and type 2 errors at quite a high rate. Single events or actions do not determine at all reliably a person salvific state. They are about as good as the "Assurance of Salvation" as an indicator of an individuals salvific state.
The only vaguely reliable method is the long term resonance of a persons life. In that case the Calvinist doctrine of the Persistence of the Saints is useful. This hints to the long term nature of the activity of the Holy Spirit within a believers life. The question really should be largely irrelevant to us, but we are human and like to know whose "in" and who is "out".
I will as a Protestant ignore the problems with just relying on "charitable works" or Orthopraxis; too many of us have made those arguments already in many places. Let those, whose tradition emphasise them, argue against them here.
So let me thus turn to "assent to right doctrine" or orthodoxy. On one level "Formal Assent to right doctrine" is highly problematic. It is pretty easy for someone with a reasonable amount of intelligence to give formal assent to almost anything that has no clear immediate application provided they are allowed to determine the way that it is interpreted.
On another level if Reasoned Action Theory is right then ones actual (as opposed to professed beliefs) should alter ones behaviour. It is thus a precursor of changes in behaviour and may indeed be a sign of the working of the Holy Spirit but it is as indirect a sign as the actual actions.
To this end I would suggest that we are always cautious in our willingness to judge others either as saved or damned, but always see our judgement as interim
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Yes, and I'd suggest that what Jengie Jon has said can equally apply outside of a Reformed paradigm too ... with some adjustments for concepts/terminology.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
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Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
The catechumenate of the early church demonstrates how faith and works function in the salvation process. Once a person was admitted to the process, Christians observed the person to see if they changed the way they lived. Doing good and abstaining from evil were signs of repentance. At the same time, those in the process learned the basics of the Christian faith. Learning and affirming the basics of the Christian faith was a prerequisite for baptism. Baptism was initiation into the Church. Those in the Church were saved. Continued fellowship with the local church and access to the sacraments. Salvation was by grace. Grace was given through the sacraments. The sacraments were administered by the Church.
Today, Christians tend to focus on one part of that process at the expense of others. For some, salvation is about saying a sinners prayer as fire insurance. The liturgical variation of that is the belief in infant baptismal regeneration coupled with perseverance of the elect minus any need for confirmation. On the Arminian side, holiness Christians fully accept that one can lose their salvation but define holiness by what one doesn't do. The flip side of that is the idea that salvation is all about being nice and holding the correct political views.
Orthodox Christianity is being replaced with conservative, liberal, and moderate versions of moralistic therapeutic deism.
[ 02. September 2014, 13:47: Message edited by: Beeswax Altar ]
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
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Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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sharkshooter
Not your average shark
# 1589
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
...
To me then, the question of salvation by faith or by works is a false dichotomy. Salvation comes from God as a grace we can all experience if we will. Faith follows experiencing God. Works follow faith and experiencing God because God's love demands of you that you share it and works can be a good way of sharing God's love.
Certainly the thread title is such a false dichotomy, as salvation is neither by works nor assent to a particular doctrine. I have seen those who insist that accepting God's gracious gift of salvation (freely given) is a work, so that those who say they believe in a faith-based salvation is actually works-based, but I think that is really trying to stuff things into a box in which they don't belong.
Clearly, as you have said, works and doctrine follow after salvation, as a response to God's saving grace in our lives. This is why some of us believe that, conservative or liberal, creationist or evolutionist, etc., all can call themselves Christian, if they have faith in Jesus Christ.
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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]
Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
You're not anyone.
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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