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Source: (consider it) Thread: Fiasco in Rotherham
shamwari
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I have waited in vain for someone to post something about the awful situation in Rotherham. Child abuse on an industrial scale has taken place yet not a mention that I can find on the Ship.

Why did it happen? And why was it allowed to happen for 15 years?

I put much of it down to an irresponsible liberalism which always sees evil as being 'systematic' and never attributes it to individuals. The answer therefore is always to tinker with the system and for individuals always to refuse responsibility. That, of course, never applies when some notable success is achieved.

An irresponsible liberalism also refuses to face facts. It is racist in that it refuses to acknowledge the racist element which is Rochdale and Rotherham was to the fore. Fear of disrupting 'social cohesion' tolerates such evils especially when minorities are involved. And, in Rotherham at least, Councillors were more interested in votes than confronting the evil

What an indictment upon society today.

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itsarumdo
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Well, since local MPs, care/social workers, police and local government, and presumably several therapists and doctors in the NHS would have been aware, I would guess that the only way this gets held in is that either a powerful group up at the top of the ladder suppresses it because they don't like to hear it, or a number of people in authority positions are taking part in the thing, or most likely, both - a few people involved and playing all their colleagues off in a game of ostriches. I can't imagine incompetency + suppression on that scale without some form of participation or other interest.

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Schroedinger's cat

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Actually, it happened because some men raped and abused children. These are the sort of scum who need some proper pitchfork justice.

It perpetuated because those in positions of responsibility would not do what they were supposed to do, for fear of being called racist. At the time, I can understand this fear - they would have been. It doesn't mean they should not have done something.

It is a condemnation of our society that, at one time at least, racism was seen as a more serious crime than child abuse. I think that time is passed.

In the end, however, the issue is not the race of those involved - in abuse or covering up. Their gender, maybe. Their sickening degredation of young children definitely. All of those involved in abuse should be named and jailed. All of those involved in covering up should get out of any role in public life.

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Callan
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There's been a desultory discussion of the matter on the Islamic State thread in Hell.

My daughter is a big fan of the Tracy Beaker books, which are set in a care home. There is a reason that the inmates invariably refer to it as the "dumping ground" and wish that a fairy godparent will whisk them away from it all. There is, quite clearly, a horrible Islamic subculture which holds that the molestation of white girls, like the murder of a blackmailer in golden age detective stories "doesn't count". But there is clearly a wider convention that the molestation of teenage girls in care "doesn't count" among law enforcement, social services and so forth. Both are horrible and need to be tackled.

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EtymologicalEvangelical
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quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's Cat
It perpetuated because those in positions of responsibility would not do what they were supposed to do, for fear of being called racist. At the time, I can understand this fear - they would have been. It doesn't mean they should not have done something.

Could you please clarify what you are saying by the phrase "they would have been".

Are you saying that those in positions of responsibility would have been racist to investigate this abuse and take action against it?

Or are you saying something else?

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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It's reasonable to point out it's more an un-Islamic sub-culture amongst some members of the Muslim community, rather than an Islamic one.

There's a good article about this "political correctness" angle here: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/29/rotherham-abuse-political-correctness-ludicrous

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Callan
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
It's reasonable to point out it's more an un-Islamic sub-culture amongst some members of the Muslim community, rather than an Islamic one.

There's a good article about this "political correctness" angle here: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/29/rotherham-abuse-political-correctness-ludicrous

Well, it's Islamic given the religion and culture of the perpetrators just as, say Fred Phelps' mob are Christians. I agree that there are better manifestations of either faith.

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quetzalcoatl
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I think Gildas is spot on - there has been a collusion between grooming gangs, council staff, and police, that some young girls are trash, and don't deserve any attention really. There are stories that the police actively were trying to disprove some young girls' stories.

I have no idea how pervasive this trashing of young girls is; we are seeing it also in other cases, such as Savile, where girls were disbelieved, and even punished for reporting abuse! It is very alarming, if it is actually present in 'authorities' such as council staff and police.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I think Gildas is spot on - there has been a collusion between grooming gangs, council staff, and police, that some young girls are trash, and don't deserve any attention really. There are stories that the police actively were trying to disprove some young girls' stories.

I have no idea how pervasive this trashing of young girls is; we are seeing it also in other cases, such as Savile, where girls were disbelieved, and even punished for reporting abuse! It is very alarming, if it is actually present in 'authorities' such as council staff and police.

I'd suggest it's endemic. Especially around here. Rotherham has a bit of a reputation; anywhere from Chesterfield to Leeds folk'd understand the joke "what do you call a 25 year old Rotherham woman?" "Gran". I can imagine that feeding into a "they're just sluts" narrative.

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I think Gildas is spot on - there has been a collusion between grooming gangs, council staff, and police, that some young girls are trash, and don't deserve any attention really. There are stories that the police actively were trying to disprove some young girls' stories.

I have no idea how pervasive this trashing of young girls is; we are seeing it also in other cases, such as Savile, where girls were disbelieved, and even punished for reporting abuse! It is very alarming, if it is actually present in 'authorities' such as council staff and police.

I'd suggest it's endemic. Especially around here. Rotherham has a bit of a reputation; anywhere from Chesterfield to Leeds folk'd understand the joke "what do you call a 25 year old Rotherham woman?" "Gran". I can imagine that feeding into a "they're just sluts" narrative.
I think it is probably endemic, and not confined to Yorkshire or the north. The last time I checked the stats, about 1 in 20 children report sexual abuse.

And historically, children and adolescents were not believed, when they reported abuse. But these kids in homes are probably seen as disposable rubbish, by everybody.

I suppose they are bottom of the pile.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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That's exactly it. The conversations in the police stations would probably have gone along the lines of "she probably went along with it then changed her mind; these slags are all like that. Anyway you'd never get it to stand up in court. Not worth the effort. She'll be claiming off the social for four kids by different fathers by the time she's 24 anyway, you know the type. Problem family."

[ 29. August 2014, 16:12: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

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Erroneous Monk
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I have two thoughts.

1) I don't believe the police were worried about being thought racist, but that might seem like a handy excuse for them now. The report hints at actual police collusion and I think this should be looked into properly. Certainly, I think individual police officers involved should face consequences. It seems to me that a police officer who arrests a child for being drunk and disorderly, while merely cautioning the adult who is having sex with the child, is a danger to children. People have gone on the sex offenders register for much less.

2) It seems to me that the children thought their parents were powerless to help. And in fact, in the cases referred to in the report, this was borne out. We have created a society where the lowest socio-economic group *are* powerless over many things in their life, instead of one in which all parents have choices about their lives - and their children grow up to believe that their parents have choices, have power - and they will have that power themselves. I feel really sad about this. I think we all have moments in life when we don't feel in control, when we're not sure that we own ourselves. If I feel that way sometimes, even though I have - relatively speaking - a huge amount of social and economic power, how are the most defenceless people in society meant to feel in control, or actually exercise that control?

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
That's exactly it. The conversations in the police stations would probably have gone along the lines of "she probably went along with it then changed her mind; these slags are all like that. Anyway you'd never get it to stand up in court. Not worth the effort. She'll be claiming off the social for four kids by different fathers by the time she's 24 anyway, you know the type. Problem family."

I think changing people's thinking about this stuff is very difficult - that is, changing deep thinking. You are going against centuries of misogyny, patriarchy, ill-treatment of children - I don't know how the hell it is going to change. In many ways, we are just scratching the surface with Savile and cases like this. There is also massive abuse in families, which is very difficult to access.

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Sioni Sais
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If the police and other bodies excuse a lack of action because they didn't want to damage community relations then it has truly turned and bitten them, as any independent advisor could have told them.

What we have now is damaged and abused children, poorer community relations and discredited police, social services, health services and local government.

What the heck is it about that area? It isn't a lot better down in South Wales, but it is usually reckoned to be in the family.

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shamwari
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Nobody yet seems to have addressed the question of whether those who were complicit ( police and council officers) should be sacked forthwith
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Doublethink.
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I am interested have you ever actually been involved in achild protection process ? Do you know how they work ? Likewise, have you ever tried to support a vulnerable person to make a legal allegation ?

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Doublethink.
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I am interested have you ever actually been involved in achild protection process ? Do you know how they work ? Likewise, have you ever tried to support a vulnerable person to make a legal allegation ?

What would you normally expect to happen. For example, the BBC have reported from a careworker a typical scenario.

A child has been abused by their birth family, and been taken into care. They now have massive attachment issues.

They meet a youngish man outside the care home, that initially they view as a boyfriend. They maintain contact on a mobile phone. They escape from the care home at night, sometimes by making sheet ropes and climbing out of the window, in response to phone messages or text messages - to be with said boyfriend.

Said girl then rings care staff wanting taxi fare home after being stranded at three am in the middle of town. This is authorised, for safety reasons.

At this point what do you do ? Do you put the child in a locked secure unit ? Do you carry out a rape kit without her consent or co-operation ?

Maybe you take the phone, what happens when she comes back with another one ? Maybe you pursue the 'boyfriend' but without her testimony, how do you prove an offence ?

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Beeswax Altar
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
It's reasonable to point out it's more an un-Islamic sub-culture amongst some members of the Muslim community, rather than an Islamic one.

There's a good article about this "political correctness" angle here: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/29/rotherham-abuse-political-correctness-ludicrous

Here is a better one from the same newspaper.

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Pomona
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KLB, Gildas and quetzalcoatl are spot on here. Just from my own experience of living in homeless hostels/B&Bs with the kind of vulnerable young women being discussed here - this kind of thing is endemic generally, and still happens where there is no significant Muslim population. When I was living in hostels, white British men were by far the most likely to be grooming young women (this was in Sussex in a mostly-white area).

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Schroedinger's cat

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quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's Cat
It perpetuated because those in positions of responsibility would not do what they were supposed to do, for fear of being called racist. At the time, I can understand this fear - they would have been. It doesn't mean they should not have done something.

Could you please clarify what you are saying by the phrase "they would have been".

Are you saying that those in positions of responsibility would have been racist to investigate this abuse and take action against it?

Or are you saying something else?

They would have been accused of being racist. Not that they would have been.

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Twilight

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quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:

It perpetuated because those in positions of responsibility would not do what they were supposed to do, for fear of being called racist.

Here, in America, I first heard the outline of the abuse and, "racism is suspected in the cover-up."

I thought racism? How could that be? The British aren't racist, if anything, they bend over backward not to be. Then I heard the whole story and realized the racism charge was pretty much the opposite of what it would be here.

I think America is heading in the same direction, where police might start looking the other way for fear of being charged with racism.

It's a dilemma. Racism is terrible but nothing should get in the way of protecting children.

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Raptor Eye
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
That's exactly it. The conversations in the police stations would probably have gone along the lines of "she probably went along with it then changed her mind; these slags are all like that. Anyway you'd never get it to stand up in court. Not worth the effort. She'll be claiming off the social for four kids by different fathers by the time she's 24 anyway, you know the type. Problem family."

This, but wider than this I think. The 'no sex before sixteen' rule was pretty much ignored, if a girl was willing she was seen as fair game. Groupies who followed the bands were often young teens.

Unless a young girl was beaten up so that it was obvious she had been attacked it would be very unlikely that anyone would take her word for it, one word against another after all. If she was out on the streets at night, especially if wearing revealing clothes, she would be thought of as a 'slag' anyway.

People are trying to apply today's attitudes to a past era.

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
KLB, Gildas and quetzalcoatl are spot on here. Just from my own experience of living in homeless hostels/B&Bs with the kind of vulnerable young women being discussed here - this kind of thing is endemic generally, and still happens where there is no significant Muslim population. When I was living in hostels, white British men were by far the most likely to be grooming young women (this was in Sussex in a mostly-white area).

I remember 50 years ago, living in Manchester, there were respectable working class girls, and non-respectable ones. The latter were known as the easy shags, although I don't think we used the word 'slag' then. I don't remember rape happening, but they were basically treated like meat. It's just an extension from that, I think, but with children's homes today you have a disgusting dimension, that the home becomes a kind of quasi-official brothel, sanctioned by the council and the cops.

There are also gangs in many big cities, where the girls are also treated like meat, and are raped, I believe.

As I said, I can't see a solution really, as all this is embedded in a matrix of misogyny and dehumanization - how do you change that?

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Penny S
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What I have heard on the radio included parents who tried to get the police to act, and were not able to do so, a brief reference to one father being arrested when he tried to do something (not sure what - I didn't hear the start of the item so don't know the whole of it), care home workers who tried to stop things, and were stopped by their superiors (sounds familiar) and an incident in which offices were raided and case notes destroyed. There was also an interview with a Muslim woman from the area pointing out that there were Muslim victims as well, who were constrained by their families to keep quiet, and the men had been brought up to expect to be dominant over women.

A very articulate woman told how she had been first approached by secondary school boys who then handed her on to very nasty adults, who threatened her family would be harmed, and she went on with them to protect them. Her parents had eventually moved out of the country to get away from them. The men were criminal in other ways.

One radio programme suggested that difference between this case and others was that here the men knew that if they told others what they were doing, the others would ask to join in rather than snitching on them.

There was a nasty link I have not seen picked up with a video from one of those pathetic individuals in ISIS who was enthusing about the cheapness of buying slave women and how that would attract men to join jihad. Same attitude to women.

It looks as though these sub-men have grown up with a sense of entitlement to an out-of-date life and found that Muslim women here have grown to something new. So they go after children or captives.

What the explanation for the white taxidrivers and so on who have this attitude in other areas is I don't know.

The dark side of my mind is toying with the idea that the punishment imposed on Alan Turing would be appropriate, with implants that couldn't be got at.

[ 29. August 2014, 20:10: Message edited by: Penny S ]

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JoannaP
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
The last time I checked the stats, about 1 in 20 children report sexual abuse.

According to the BBC, it is closer to 1 in 10.

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
The last time I checked the stats, about 1 in 20 children report sexual abuse.

According to the BBC, it is closer to 1 in 10.
I do remember the overall figure for abuse, sexual and non-sexual (physical violence, emotional neglect, and so on) - the NSPCC used to quote a figure of 16%, that is, 1 in 6. They used to use a graphic of a school bus taking kids home, with the slogan, that 5 or 6 of them were going home to abuse. And I still know people who refuse to believe it.

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L'organist
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posted by shamwari
quote:
Why did it happen? And why was it allowed to happen for 15 years?
It happened for a variety of reasons, many of which can be directly traced to a misplaced laissez-faire attitude - some would say knee-jerk liberalism - which has become widespread under the misused term of 'multiculturalism'.

To look at the perpetrators first: to describe the attitude of an influential metropolitan elite towards immigrant communities, especially muslims, as being multicultural and tolerant is entirely wrong. The reality has been that immigrant communities have to a large extent remained mono-cultural.

Worse, as abuses have been highlighted - arranged marriage, inter-marriage, so-called honour violence, FGM, etc - a blanket label of 'cultural heritage' has been applied to obscure behaviours that not only run counter to the ethos of our society but in many cases disguise practices which are against the law of the land. To compound that, anyone who has tried to speak out about these abuses or the isolation of communities has immediately been labelled racist.

As far back as 1982 Ray Honeyford tried to draw attention to the isolation of muslim communities and was hounded from his job and labelled a knuckle-dragging red-neck. When Ann Cryer tried to draw attention to honour crime, and forced marriage and failure of immigrants to learn English she too was howled down, with many Labour politicians at both local and national level queueing up to put the boot into one of their own who dared to question the official multicultural line.

To turn to the victims: some came from homes best described as chaotic and had been involved with social services for years. But others came from loving homes with parents who were deeply concerned and trying to do their level best to keep their children safe.

The tragedy is that in more than a few cases, children were removed from loving homes and placed in so-called 'care' where no attempt at all was made to control the movements of the children or even to question where they were.

For is we can blame misplaced multiculturalism for some of the attitudes of police and politicians, we should also look at the garbage spouted by some of the people into whose tender care - although clutches might be a better word - these troubled children were placed.

How any moderately sensible person can decide that an 11 or 12 year old girl is making a 'life-style choice' to choose to have sex with multiple partners beggars belief. That such an attitude can appear in a report on that child and not be questioned - not even by the police who should, at the very least have pointed out that the child in question was 4 or 5 years below the age of consent - highlights that there is something very wrong with an institution which can have within it people with such a warped view of childhood, autonomy and responsibility.

That this problem is not unique to Rotherham is well known. What is perhaps less well documented is the steps that other authorities have been taking to try to put in place children's services staffed by people with common sense, free of the liberalist clap-trap spouted in Rotherham other places when trying to explain yet another 'lesson to be learnt' horror story. In one area (I can't give details, sorry) children's services have been removed from the social services umbrella altogether so that a fresh start can be made; the largely educational staff who have been taking over for the past 2 years have uncovered widespread failures to visit, to document meetings, failure to intervene, ignorance of the law pertaining to drug abuse, sexual consent, etc, etc, etc.

As for South Yorkshire Police - words fail. The latest HMIC report found that something approaching 40% of all sexual crimes are still going unrecorded - either pressure is brought to bear on the complainant or it is just left uninvestigated in the hopes that the victim will go away.

As to where we go from here: hard decisions have to be made regarding public officials and culpability. It is not unreasonable to suggest that those who have moved on from Rotherham could be dismissed from current posts on the grounds that the information given by them when applying for the current post was inaccurate - after all, would you want to consider someone who'd so manifestly failed at their previous job?

Police should be made to record all crimes reported to them and then follow them up. All telephone calls into police stations should be taped and the tapes held for at least a year so that HMIC inspectors can check them. Similarly, all public areas of police stations should have CCTV with sound, and police cars should also have recording equipment as standard.

As for the communities that have chosen to isolate themselves - much, don't forget, to the detriment of their womenfolk - a zero tolerance approach must be taken towards crimes of domestic violence, bullying and intimidation. Intensive language lessons must be made available to adult members of such communities.

Perhaps most importantly, the acceptance by civic authorities of self-appointed 'community leaders' must be rigorously challenged. Ask yourself, could you instantly say who should be appointed the (white) 'community leaders' in your area? So where's the difference.

The UK needs to wake up to the inverted racism that inherent in a multi-cultural lobby that refused to acknowledge that quasi acceptance of all the nastier habits of some of our muslim immigrants (FGM, forced marriage, 'honour' crime, etc) was in reality saying to some immigrant communities that they could do as they liked so long as they kept their unpleasantness within their own sphere.

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Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012  |  IP: Logged
Belle Ringer
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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
anyone who has tried to speak out about these abuses or the isolation of communities has immediately been labelled racist.

As far back as 1982 Ray Honeyford tried to draw attention to the isolation of muslim communities and was hounded from his job and labelled a knuckle-dragging red-neck. When Ann Cryer tried to draw attention to honour crime, and forced marriage and failure of immigrants to learn English she too was howled down,

Which are examples of what someone upthread said, if you tried to oppose it you would be called racist. Being called that was not just word, it was losing your job and being socially scorned, meaning you can't find a new job.

When the choice appears to be - speak up and lose my job and no one does anything about the problem, or stay silent and keep my job and no does anything about the problem, which do most people do?

quote:
As for the communities that have chosen to isolate themselves - ... the acceptance by civic authorities of self-appointed 'community leaders' must be rigorously challenged.
Good point. In my experience, those who try to appoint themselves "leader" over a gathering or community are usually loud mouths, self-satisfied power hungry, not the kind of people who care about the welfare of all members of the community.
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Anglican't
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In addition to Ray Honeyford and Ann Cryer, didn't Jack Straw get shouted down when he claimed that some Asian men regarded British women as 'white meat' and that this was a problem?
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Doublethink.
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quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
I am interested have you ever actually been involved in achild protection process ? Do you know how they work ? Likewise, have you ever tried to support a vulnerable person to make a legal allegation ?

What would you normally expect to happen. For example, the BBC have reported from a careworker a typical scenario.

A child has been abused by their birth family, and been taken into care. They now have massive attachment issues.

They meet a youngish man outside the care home, that initially they view as a boyfriend. They maintain contact on a mobile phone. They escape from the care home at night, sometimes by making sheet ropes and climbing out of the window, in response to phone messages or text messages - to be with said boyfriend.

Said girl then rings care staff wanting taxi fare home after being stranded at three am in the middle of town. This is authorised, for safety reasons.

At this point what do you do ? Do you put the child in a locked secure unit ? Do you carry out a rape kit without her consent or co-operation ?

Maybe you take the phone, what happens when she comes back with another one ? Maybe you pursue the 'boyfriend' but without her testimony, how do you prove an offence ?

I thought I'd repeat myself and see if anyone has any practical suggestions.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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itsarumdo
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Yes - I can see that happening - and the police etc becoming so numbed out with all the stuff they deal with day in day out that in the end if it's borderline they have difficulty being bothered with individual cases you describe. But this isn't just one case, and it's been systematic abuse from a group of adults over a decade.

Family patterns - if you talk to a psychotherapist, the likelihood is that the girls are acting out a pattern that has been in the family for at least 3 generations. That isn't something that can be stopped overnight - and if it's so endemic in the community then there isn't a baseline behaviour that would regulate much of it.

But.

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rolyn
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What I want to know is, will all the perpetrators be tracked down in 40 to 50 years time and jailed as old men for historic sex abuse ?

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
What I want to know is, will all the perpetrators be tracked down in 40 to 50 years time and jailed as old men for historic sex abuse ?

They could have been prosecuted now, if the police had listened to working class girls, who are treated as trash by everybody.

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Holy Smoke
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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
What I want to know is, will all the perpetrators be tracked down in 40 to 50 years time and jailed as old men for historic sex abuse ?

I think our society has a slightly different view of dirty old men compared to dirty young women. Or, in other words, sometimes it's easier to trash the victims than to trash the perpetrators.

[ 30. August 2014, 11:41: Message edited by: Holy Smoke ]

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balaam

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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
[QBthe NSPCC used to quote a figure of 16%, that is, 1 in 6. They used to use a graphic of a school bus taking kids home, with the slogan, that 5 or 6 of them were going home to abuse. And I still know people who refuse to believe it. [/QB]

I tink that includes physical as well as sexual abuse, and I believe it.

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L'organist
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Doublethink

Many, though not all, of the girls in care homes in Rotherham and other northern towns were from out-of-area - some from as far away as London.

So a precedent had been set that it was OK to remove vulnerable children from their home neighbourhood.

In the instance you describe, apart from taking the obvious actions - regular after-dark checking that children were in their room, making the building secure with alarms on windows, removal of mobile 'phone, etc - a visit to the GP the next morning would not be unreasonable.

If the child escaped a second time then an immediate relocation a long way away, after confiscation of the mobile, would be called for.

Plus, of course, going with the cared-for child to the police and backing them up - or if they were being bolshy making it clear to police that an offence was suspected or had taken place and that you wished it to be recorded. Since the child was under 18 the care workers were in loco parentis and therefore had every right to represent them in situations like this.

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Penny S
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Listening to the radio Any Answers discussing this issue - it's now going on to social mobility and inequality. And just before I started to listen I had started reading a piece in the Guardian Review contrasting the feather bedding of bankers with the atrocious sanctioning culture in the world of those who really need benefits. (Family man sanctioned just before Christmas because he missed a signing on while on a mandatory course. Disabled woman sanctioned because she had not told about her dependent daughter when asked if she had someone living with her, thinking they meant a partner.)

I heard, or read, something recently, but can't place where - O yes, a novel by Phil Rickman about a neo-Nazi group among the class which harboured Mosley (is it neo-Nazi if they never stopped being that way?) about people who regarded a lower class of society as Detritus, disposable, better off lost. There seems to be a flavour of that attitude in the way those on benefits (that was once a good word, as was welfare, with the linguistic elements of good things) and the girls and boys abused in these cases are regarded by those who have the care of society.

I have also read a novel by Jill Paton Walsh in which the McGuffin was a manuscript which might, or might not, have been annotated by Alfred the Great. From what I can make out, he did not have the attitude that there was a disposable class beneath his notice. From what I can make out, the writers of obituaries in the Dark Ages were much taken by the concept that "In his (name of subject) reign, a maiden could cross the kingdom carrying gold openly in her hand (sometimes a baby) without being harmed." I wonder what they would make of our realm now.

[ 30. August 2014, 13:37: Message edited by: Penny S ]

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Pyx_e

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quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
I am interested have you ever actually been involved in achild protection process ? Do you know how they work ? Likewise, have you ever tried to support a vulnerable person to make a legal allegation ?

What would you normally expect to happen. For example, the BBC have reported from a careworker a typical scenario.

A child has been abused by their birth family, and been taken into care. They now have massive attachment issues.

They meet a youngish man outside the care home, that initially they view as a boyfriend. They maintain contact on a mobile phone. They escape from the care home at night, sometimes by making sheet ropes and climbing out of the window, in response to phone messages or text messages - to be with said boyfriend.

Said girl then rings care staff wanting taxi fare home after being stranded at three am in the middle of town. This is authorised, for safety reasons.

At this point what do you do ? Do you put the child in a locked secure unit ? Do you carry out a rape kit without her consent or co-operation ?

Maybe you take the phone, what happens when she comes back with another one ? Maybe you pursue the 'boyfriend' but without her testimony, how do you prove an offence ?

DT the numbers of threads we would need to start to even begin to cover some of the ground in your post/question is huge. As a first pass:

Parenting course/Schooling, what values do we teach?

The over sexualisation of Society by a rampant capitalist regime.

Can we financially afford to NOT address attachment disorders?

Should children in Care be locked up?

What punishments for men who rape children will effectively cut down the incidents of child rape?

At what point does "the system" cause more harm to children in care than leaving them in abusive family situation?

Who is responsible for children achieving emotional, intellectual and spiritual maturity?

Can we take responsibility away from children, regarding consent to collect forensic evidence.

In the end how do we approach the truth that given a slight opportunity many men will step beyond legality and "normal" morality into abusive sex?

I could go on. The cause of the symptoms you are describing are deep. Maybe there is no real answer to your main question because the real answers are not about your question. I think I empathise with the direction you are going (I can answer yes to your first three question and more) but the answers are deeper.

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Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Doublethink.
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I guess my point is, that there are reasons other than - all the professionals involved couldn't be arsed - that things go wrong. It is always difficult to get people to testify against criminal gangs. Though I grant there was poor practice in Rotheram as well.

In most cases social services handle regarding child abuse, upto and including removing a child from their family, do not result in criminal prosecution. Civil cases can be decided on the basis of the balance of probabilities, criminal cases can not. Most cases of child abuse just can not be proven to the level required by a criminal court. It is much the same with the abuse of vulnerable adults.

You can have care staff restraining someone face down on the floor (which is extremely dangerous), corroborated, get them dismissed and put on the vetting and barring list - and still not be able to get a criminal prosecution for assault.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Doublethink.
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# 1984

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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Doublethink

Many, though not all, of the girls in care homes in Rotherham and other northern towns were from out-of-area - some from as far away as London.

So a precedent had been set that it was OK to remove vulnerable children from their home neighbourhood.

In the instance you describe, apart from taking the obvious actions - regular after-dark checking that children were in their room, making the building secure with alarms on windows, removal of mobile 'phone, etc - a visit to the GP the next morning would not be unreasonable.

If the child escaped a second time then an immediate relocation a long way away, after confiscation of the mobile, would be called for.

Plus, of course, going with the cared-for child to the police and backing them up - or if they were being bolshy making it clear to police that an offence was suspected or had taken place and that you wished it to be recorded. Since the child was under 18 the care workers were in loco parentis and therefore had every right to represent them in situations like this.

Are you prepared to use physical intervention to get the children to co-operate ? Because there are massive issues with the escalation and frequency of physical intervention.

The Winterbourne scandal shows a whole other set of risks that go with sending people a long distance from those responsible for reviewing their care.

If a child is vulnerable in this way, they are likely to be vulnerable wherever you send them, taking the move them every time route would result in multiple placements - also known to be very damaging - even if you could find the vacancy and get the monies agreed each time. The moves would also disrupt any positive attachments the child had each time.

I have worked with eighteen year olds coming into adult services who have had over 20 placements - that has a ***very*** poor outcome.

If you contact the police and say you suspect an offence has happened but you can produce no evidence of it - they won't do anything about it. Been there, done that, have no t-shirt.

The Rotheram situation was dire, but there are no simple solutions.

[ 30. August 2014, 16:08: Message edited by: Doublethink ]

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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rolyn
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quote:
Originally posted by Holy Smoke:
I think our society has a slightly different view of dirty old men compared to dirty young women. Or, in other words, sometimes it's easier to trash the victims than to trash the perpetrators.

Quite so .
It wasn't so long ago when the savile business began to emerge that many of us were muttering about precocious young girls putting it about, you know six of one an half a dozen of the other and all that.
Then the anger strikes with the gnawing realisation that an adult has taken blatant advantage of a situation , taken premeditated action that has got them what they wanted over and over again, with little or no regard for their victims .

With savile it became clear that his celebrity status and charity work was the shield against being brought to justice . In this Rotheram case it seems political correctness ,(whatever that is), has provided the perpetrators with protection.
What is equally disturbing is the woeful inaction
of those in positions of authority whose job it is to prevent this kind of stuff from happening at all . I mean how crazy is it that, whilst all this was going on, certain authorities have spent energy banning parents from merely photographing their children at sports activities.

Re OP I wonder if the reluctance to set up this thread ,and comment on it, isn't down to some of us beginning to wonder just what the heck is going on with this issue, and just how high up the echelons of power it actually goes.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Belle Ringer
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A ring (small gang) providing kids for other men to -

What bugs me, who are all these men who gladly pay the ring for the right to sex on an unwilling female, and a child at that?

There had to be a lot of "customers" for the ring to afford all the "candy" to entice so many girls. A lot of customers, not just a few immigrants from some other culture.

Something's terribly wrong with our culture if this kind of behavioral interest is common enough to require such numbers of girls.

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
A ring (small gang) providing kids for other men to -

What bugs me, who are all these men who gladly pay the ring for the right to sex on an unwilling female, and a child at that?

There had to be a lot of "customers" for the ring to afford all the "candy" to entice so many girls. A lot of customers, not just a few immigrants from some other culture.

Something's terribly wrong with our culture if this kind of behavioral interest is common enough to require such numbers of girls.

Well, you can read about this in the Victorian age, which was very prim and proper, but which is supposed to have seen large numbers of girls on the streets, working as prostitutes. Thus, the journalist W. T. Stead bought a 13 year old girl, in 1885, just to show how it could be done.

Of course, improvements were made in relation to this trade, for example, the age of consent was raised, and children discouraged from it, but it has probably always existed. Today we see a new form of it, but not all that new.

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Belle Ringer
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Something's terribly wrong with our culture if this kind of behavioral interest is common enough to require such numbers of girls.

...it has probably always existed. Today we see a new form of it, but not all that new.
True, not new. Is it common in all cultures? Or is there something about Western culture? As you point out, not just 21st century Western culture.
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quetzalcoatl
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I think the Victorian phenomenon of mass prostitution is often linked with poverty and unemployment; of course, there was no welfare state then, so if you had no job, you might be driven to prostitution.

I don't know if this occurred in other countries, but it would seem likely, in similar conditions.

But I think until recently paedophiles were also travelling abroad to pick kids up, for example, Thailand, although I think they have been cracking down on it.

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Stetson
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quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Something's terribly wrong with our culture if this kind of behavioral interest is common enough to require such numbers of girls.

...it has probably always existed. Today we see a new form of it, but not all that new.
True, not new. Is it common in all cultures? Or is there something about Western culture? As you point out, not just 21st century Western culture.
I won't be posting any links, but you can do a wikipedia search on "lolicon" to see an example of the interest manifesting itself in Japan.

Granted, I don't know to what extent that interest overflows into actual practice, or if it generally remains in the realm of fantasy, among the Japanese.

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Moo

Ship's tough old bird
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quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
I won't be posting any links, but you can do a wikipedia search on "lolicon" to see an example of the interest manifesting itself in Japan.

Granted, I don't know to what extent that interest overflows into actual practice, or if it generally remains in the realm of fantasy, among the Japanese.

I remember reading news articles some years ago about Japanese businessmen who jumped at the chance to have sex with girls wearing school uniforms.

Moo

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Stetson
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quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
I won't be posting any links, but you can do a wikipedia search on "lolicon" to see an example of the interest manifesting itself in Japan.

Granted, I don't know to what extent that interest overflows into actual practice, or if it generally remains in the realm of fantasy, among the Japanese.

I remember reading news articles some years ago about Japanese businessmen who jumped at the chance to have sex with girls wearing school uniforms.

Moo

Yeah, you hear a lot about that particular fetish over there. But I don't know how much of it involves sex with actual minors, or just adult prostitutes dressed up as such.
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Byron
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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
posted by shamwari
quote:
Why did it happen? And why was it allowed to happen for 15 years?
It happened for a variety of reasons, many of which can be directly traced to a misplaced laissez-faire attitude - some would say knee-jerk liberalism - which has become widespread under the misused term of 'multiculturalism'. [...]
That issue may have factored in, but undergirding it is the same dark rationale that undergirds all cases of abuse, which is touched on above: the victims were powerless and marginalized, the authorities indifferent to their plight. It was easier to do nothing, so nothing was done.

One of the great truths of Christianity is original sin: not the concept, but the observation. We're not naturally good; goodness leads to unnecessary conflict, which millions of years of evolution have wired us to avoid. Ethics are counter-intuitive in the extreme.

If it ever got its own house in order, this where the church could be radically counter-cultural to good purpose.

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Martin60
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What an awesome middle paragraph.

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Love wins

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