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Lamb Chopped: Auggghhhh! I'm obviously not communicating. He does NOT think of us as despicable beings. If he did, why the hell would he send Christ/come himself as Christ, whichever formulation you prefer, in the first place?

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Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Adeodatus, I really think Augustine could have expressed himself much better, and I don't think that's what he meant to convey. I suspect if we had the context and the audience, we'd understand it better. Seriously, he'd have to be a freak of human nature to mean what you suggest he's meaning--and that's not the impression I get of him at all, reading other stuff by him.

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Lamb Chopped: Your example (an atheist) is not attempting to give a gift at all.

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Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I said that on a human level (which is basically everything bar "this earns salvation") the deeds are awesome and wholly acceptable.

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Let me propose another, which I believe is close to what Augustine had in mind.

A child comes to me, wanting to learn to draw and paint. I watch the child's first attempts. But then I say, "I'm not at all pleased with anything you've done."

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Once I've conceived my daughter she is now an entity quite separate from me. But that is not our relationship to God in Augustinian theology: God is our creator and sustainer, and is in Augustine's words, closer to us than we are to ourselves.

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Originally posted by Dafyd:

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Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I said that on a human level (which is basically everything bar "this earns salvation") the deeds are awesome and wholly acceptable.

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I don't know if you intend the implication that if, somehow, we were able to perform perfect works, those perfect works could earn salvation. Salvation is not something that could be earned even by the sinless. The prodigal's elder brother has no more earned his father's love than the prodigal has. There is no earning; the father loves them before the question of earning even arises.

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Originally posted by Dafyd:

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Let me propose another, which I believe is close to what Augustine had in mind.

A child comes to me, wanting to learn to draw and paint. I watch the child's first attempts. But then I say, "I'm not at all pleased with anything you've done."

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I believe there is a good case to be made that this is not what Augustine had in mind, based on my understanding of Augustine's theology elsewhere. And if there is doubt I think one should interpret Augustine or the Bible or any author giving the benefit of any doubt, preferring a more edifying interpretation over a less all other things being equal.

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Originally posted by Dafyd:

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Let me propose another, which I believe is close to what Augustine had in mind.

A child comes to me, wanting to learn to draw and paint. I watch the child's first attempts. But then I say, "I'm not at all pleased with anything you've done."

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I believe there is a good case to be made that this is not what Augustine had in mind, based on my understanding of Augustine's theology elsewhere.

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Originally posted by Ariston:
LC basically has it laid out—that first passage she cited might have come straight out of On Nature and Grace—the Augustinian doctrine is not that only bad things can be done by human beings, but that, if a human does something pleasing to God, something truly virtuous, it is a gift of God, an effect of grace, and comes from the source of all goodness, God, who is Goodness itself. In general, it's a standard Augustinian rhetorical formulation (in his letters, in De Trinitate, etc.) that faults are to be attributed to him, but what is good to the One who is the true author. Much of the explication of this doctrine can be found in his anti-Pelagian works, especially those on nature and grace, which makes sense.

While Augustine really and truly does not believe that all of creation is evil, or that evil is a thing, or that evil is anything other than a deprivation of the good, he does believe, and believe very strongly, that humanity is fallen, and, by its own merits, can never attain grace. As Kant will put it in his reading of the Genesis story 1400 years later, there is a propensity to radical evil in humanity, a sense in which we can never act according to a purely good will once we have become rational actors; "out of the crooked timber of humanity no straight thing was ever made." It's a long story as to why, of course, for Augustine, Kant, and, come to think of it, Hegel, but it is the case for all of them that there are impure motives lurking in the back of every seemingly noble deed done by humanity, motives that cannot ever be expunged save by grace, and grace alone.

Humanity can never achieve the perfection it once enjoyed in Eden. We are fallen. We are depraved. The moral certainty we once enjoyed, the ability to walk perfectly with God and follow His will exactly, has been lost to us, save that God acts in us and through us by His grace. Given our fallen and impure wills, it is impossible, contra Pelagius, to ever act without any impure motive, or to do anything that is not in some way tainted by original sin, by being born outside of grace—at least, purely by our own wills.

So no, it is not that humans can only do evil. It is not even that non-Christians can't act according to imperfect virtue—Augustine destroys this claim when discussing the heights of old Roman virtue in City of God. But to act according to pure motives, free from error and the taint of original sin—that belongs to the grace that comes from Goodness itself, and the source of all such goodness in the world.

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A child comes to me, wanting to learn to draw and paint. I watch the child's first attempts. But then I say, "I'm not at all pleased with anything you've done." (I am displeased - Augustine's word.) "It's all worthless, it's rubbish." (I condemn the work - Augustine's word.) "You will never be an artist. I might as well do all your drawing and painting for you. And however much the world thinks you an artist, you and I will always know that the work was mine."

Have I done my best for that child?

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Originally posted by Evensong:

Why is it that if a fallen human being does good, it must be attributed to God's grace but when a human being does something bad it is attributed to themselves?

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Originally posted by IngoB:
As an aside, I need to correct myself a bit: not all human good requires God's grace. Formally, only supernatural goods require God's grace.

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Originally posted by Dafyd:
AIUI Catholic theologians have differed over this question. Augustine I think would tend towards the side that asserts there is no human good without grace. The late nineteenth century scholastic theology, against which Von Balthasar and Rahner both reacted in their different ways, asserted strongly that there is a natural human good without grace. Which side Aquinas falls on is a matter of contested interpretation.

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I think Aquinas is rather clear on this, and I was making my corrections since I thought the distinctions in the Summa (rather than in some later commentary) were important. There is a sense in which Aquinas would say that all good comes from God, see first article at the link, and actually much of what I said previously was thinking along those lines. Yet a valid distinction can be made between a natural good that is "powered by God" only in the sense that God is the creative and motive force behind everything, and a corrupted natural good that fails unless supported by an additional supernatural action, and again a full on supernatural good. And we tend to care more about the latter two (taking nature for granted), and when we say "grace" we really mean bringing about these.

So if there is indeed a debate in the literature about what Aquinas says, then I think it is merely about what is properly called a "grace" in his scheme. On your description I would say the late Scholastics win over Balthasar and Rahner (as is right and just ). For example, consider from the third article at the link this: "And hence we must say that in the state of perfect nature man did not need the gift of grace added to his natural endowments, in order to love God above all things naturally, although he needed God's help to move him to it; but in the state of corrupt nature man needs, even for this, the help of grace to heal his nature." It seems pretty clear that Aquinas distinguishes here between a "gift of grace" and the "Divine help to move", where the latter "powers" natural ability.

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

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He will condemn the evil deeds of men and women and save the men and women themselves. People didn't make themselves, but they made bad deeds. What God made in them is good, because God made man to his image and likeness. But the evil that man worked by free choice, turning away from his author and creator and turning to wickedness, this God condemns in order to set man free; that is, God condemns what man has done, and God sets free what God himself has done. So it's not true that we were good. And he had mercy on us, and sent his Son to die, not for the good but for the bad, not for the just but for the ungodly.

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Originally posted by Gildas:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:

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A child comes to me, wanting to learn to draw and paint. I watch the child's first attempts. But then I say, "I'm not at all pleased with anything you've done." (I am displeased - Augustine's word.) "It's all worthless, it's rubbish." (I condemn the work - Augustine's word.) "You will never be an artist. I might as well do all your drawing and painting for you. And however much the world thinks you an artist, you and I will always know that the work was mine."

Have I done my best for that child?

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One of my earliest recollections is of my attempting to write my name with my mother holding my hands and helping me to shape the letters until I had the knack for myself. Does that help?

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XIII. Of Works before Justification.
Works done before the grace of Christ, and the Inspiration of his Spirit, are not pleasant to God, forasmuch as they spring not of faith in Jesus Christ, neither do they make men meet to receive grace, or (as the School-authors say) deserve grace of congruity: yea rather, for that they are not done as God willed and commanded them to be done, we doubt not but they have the nature of sin.

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
It seems clear that it is CofE doctrine that (good) works done before "justification" (whatever that means) are actually displeasing to God and "have the nature of sin".

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
So we're back to mousethief's excellent description earlier? - That to God, we stink, and only the application of a generous squirt of Jesus-deodorant will mask the smell?

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Originally posted by seekingsister:

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
So we're back to mousethief's excellent description earlier? - That to God, we stink, and only the application of a generous squirt of Jesus-deodorant will mask the smell?

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We don't stink to God, we stink in general. Look at the world around you.

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
It was precisely looking at the world around me that prompted my revulsion at what Augustine appeared to be saying. Sure, the world is full of terrible things going on; but I look around me and I see acts of kindness and generosity. I see people honouring one another's dignity, encouraging one another in hardship. Every single day I see simple, plain, unadorned goodness that fills my heart with a sense of privilege that I've witnessed it.

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Originally posted by seekingsister:

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
It was precisely looking at the world around me that prompted my revulsion at what Augustine appeared to be saying. Sure, the world is full of terrible things going on; but I look around me and I see acts of kindness and generosity. I see people honouring one another's dignity, encouraging one another in hardship. Every single day I see simple, plain, unadorned goodness that fills my heart with a sense of privilege that I've witnessed it.

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I'd say to that either you are choosing only to see the nice things, or you are not close enough to know the unkind things people do.

Look at how many children grow up without a father who even checks in more than a handful of times in their childhood. Look how common infidelity is in marriages. Look at how many people in positions of influence use their jobs to enrich themselves materially rather than to help others. Look at the prevalence of racism, sexism, and xenophobia.

And I'm not even going into crime and violence.

You prefer to wear rose colored glasses, and that's great for you. But the world is not a place where people are going around loving each other all the time. If so it wouldn't be such a challenge to "love your neighbor as yourself."

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Originally posted by seekingsister:
Look at how many children grow up without a father who even checks in more than a handful of times in their childhood. Look how common infidelity is in marriages. Look at how many people in positions of influence use their jobs to enrich themselves materially rather than to help others. Look at the prevalence of racism, sexism, and xenophobia.

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
And all without reference to God. All (or most) done by people who aren't "religious", or wanting to be "saved", who have no other motive than that they encountered another human being in need. And that is "displeasing" to God?

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On the Spirit and the Letter
Chapter XXVII — The Law Being Done by Nature Means, Done by Nature as Restored by Grace
Nor ought it to disturb us that the apostle described them as doing that which is contained in the law by nature — not by the Spirit of God, not by faith, not by grace. For it is the Spirit of grace that does it, in order to restore in us the image of God, in which we were naturally created. (Genesis 1:27) Sin, indeed, is contrary to nature, and it is grace that heals it — on which account the prayer is offered to God, Be merciful unto me: heal my soul; for I have sinned against You. Therefore it is by nature that men do the things which are contained in the law; (Romans 2:14) for they who do not, fail to do so by reason of their sinful defect. In consequence of this sinfulness, the law of God is erased out of their hearts; and therefore, when, the sin being healed, it is written there, the prescriptions of the law are done by nature — not that by nature grace is denied, but rather by grace nature is repaired. For by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed upon all men; in which all have sinned; (Romans 5:12) wherefore there is no difference: they all come short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace. (Romans 3:22-24) By this grace there is written on the renewed inner man that righteousness which sin had blotted out; and this mercy comes upon the human race through our Lord Jesus Christ. For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus. (1 Timothy 2:5)

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Originally posted by Dafyd:

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Originally posted by seekingsister:
Look at how many children grow up without a father who even checks in more than a handful of times in their childhood. Look how common infidelity is in marriages. Look at how many people in positions of influence use their jobs to enrich themselves materially rather than to help others. Look at the prevalence of racism, sexism, and xenophobia.

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The question isn't whether some people are evil, or even whether some people are mixed. It's whether there are any good works done for their own sake and not from grace.

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
It seems clear that it is CofE doctrine that (good) works done before "justification" (whatever that means) are actually displeasing to God and "have the nature of sin".

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
And because of all the bad things happening, any good that's done is worthless?

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seekingsister: They aren't worthless to you and me as humans, but they are worthless to God because we do not please Him by works.

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Originally posted by LeRoc:

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seekingsister: They aren't worthless to you and me as humans, but they are worthless to God because we do not please Him by works.

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This god stinks.

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Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
My image is that of a parent that quietly loads up a kid's room with brushes, paint, paper, etc, leaves more art stuff strewn around the house, them hold his breath and waits. When the child picks up a brush and starts messing around, he privately does the Snoopy dance of joy. Then he keeps watching to see what the child will do next. Long before the child even thinks to ask for approval, he rejoices. Because the child picked up a brush.

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Originally posted by LeRoc:

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seekingsister: They aren't worthless to you and me as humans, but they are worthless to God because we do not please Him by works.

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This god stinks.

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Originally posted by LeRoc:

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seekingsister: They aren't worthless to you and me as humans, but they are worthless to God because we do not please Him by works.

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This god stinks.

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Agreed. Were our forebears in the faith (e.g. Augustine) so cynical that they thought God could take no simple delight in the good done by his creation, without God also thinking that by doing so we were trying to buy his love?

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seekingsister: You like a god who gives more grace to those who do more nice things?

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seekingsister: What if by circumstances, mental illness, other struggles you cannot do good works? Tough luck?

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