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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Who lit the fuse, under the bum of Christendom?
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Irving Layton's 1976 poem C'est Fini starts
"Three Jews, three Jews
lit a fuse
under the bum
of Christendom"
He goes on to blame Spinoza for introducing logic and criticism, Marx for explaining how Christians got rich, and Freud for subversively explaining our dreams and myths.
I think we must admit that Christianity is indeed in decline. What do you think are the reasons? I have thought that the focus on the material, by this I mean the physical reality, coupled with selfishness and profanity masquerading as the sacred are pieces of this. What do you think?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Irving Layton's 1976 poem C'est Fini starts
"Three Jews, three Jews
lit a fuse
under the bum
of Christendom"
He goes on to blame Spinoza for introducing logic and criticism, Marx for explaining how Christians got rich, and Freud for subversively explaining our dreams and myths.
I think we must admit that Christianity is indeed in decline. What do you think are the reasons? I have thought that the focus on the material, by this I mean the physical reality, coupled with selfishness and profanity masquerading as the sacred are pieces of this. What do you think?
My personal admiration for Spinoza not withstanding, can he really be credited with "introducing logic and criticism"?
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
No, Layton had a axe to grind about Jews and Christians: Paul is a Hellenized sod, he wonders about The Virginal Clean Mary who lived among people called dirty Jews in later centuries. Perhaps I shouldn't have decided to riff a thread from my Canadian brother Irving, but he is one of our best poets.
I still wonder about all the firecrackers lit under Christianity. There appears to be no bomb or sudden thing, like another crucifixion to overturn it. Just little pops and farts as the thing degrades.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
It is the old farts in the hierarchy that contribute to the problem
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
It's more than a silent fart outside Europe.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
I think we must admit that Christianity is indeed in decline. What do you think are the reasons? I have thought that the focus on the material, by this I mean the physical reality, coupled with selfishness and profanity masquerading as the sacred are pieces of this. What do you think?
A few weeks ago a friend and I were talking about the evangelisation of towns in the UK in the Industrial Revolution. We both came round to thinking that perhaps they weren't evangelised much at all (at least by small-e "establishment" churches): the factory owners built churches, and the working class went to them, because if they didn't go to church (or chapel) on Sunday, they didn't have a job to go to on Monday. Church wasn't so much the opium of the masses, as a mechanism of social control in the hands of the privileged.
Do that for a few generations, we thought, and when the coercion is finally removed, it's hardly surprising that the next generation doesn't go to church at all. You've not only built up generations of resentment, you've also allowed the working class to see the moneyed class parading its hypocrisies in public.
So my suggestion for "Who lit the fuse" would be - the capitalists who conscripted the Church as a means of social control, and the Church that was more than willing to go along for the ride.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
It was in The Gravedigger File that I first read the line by G.K. Chesterton: quote:
At least five times the Christian faith has to all appearances gone to the dogs. In each of these five cases it was the dog that died
Let's not write any obituaries too soon.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I'm not sure your portrayal of the Industrial Revolution is entirely accurate, Adeodatus.
People didn't always attend the same chapel as the bosses.
I once went to a fascinating lecture about the history of Methodism in the Huddersfield area by a pukka Methodist historian.
Despite their proximity, Leeds and Huddersfield were entirely different in the way their religious and intellectual or philosophical life and institutions developed.
In the 18th and 19th centuries Leeds was seen as far 'freer' because people had more say in what went on. Huddersfield - 'the town that bought itself' - was effectively owned by a small number of industrialists - and essentially the only real 'choice' that people had was which church or chapel to attend.
This led to a bewildering plethora of churches and chapels - far more than in Leeds - because people would attend different ones in order to assert some kind of independence or individuality.
Sure, there were some mill towns where everyone attended particular chapels or churches because the bosses expected it of them ... but the situation was far more varied than the 'trouble up't mill' mythology might suggest.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Also, according to the 1850 (51?) Religious Census, there were vast swathes of the working classes who were completely unchurched.
About half the population of the UK attended church or chapel in the 1850s ... roughly evenly divided between the Big E Establishment Churches (CofE and Kirk) and the various non-conformist chapels.
That left another half which didn't have anything to do with organised religion at all.
The 'lower' working classes had effectively been 'lost' to organised religion by the early 19th century ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
Given the options you mention, the RCs simply weren't counted as "church people".
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I'm not sure about Spinoza, but I agree that Marxism and depth psychology have been like acids eating away at religion; also post-modernism as well.
I wonder if religion has been too hierarchical and too undemocratic really; today is the age of pluralism.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I'm not sure about Spinoza, but I agree that Marxism and depth psychology have been like acids eating away at religion; also post-modernism as well.
I would say that, as alternatives appear, religion is no longer considered the only answer.
And prosperity is the enemy of religion, for the masses at least.
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I wonder if religion has been too hierarchical and too undemocratic really; today is the age of pluralism.
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Church wasn't so much the opium of the masses, as a mechanism of social control in the hands of the privileged.
Protestantism did not spread merely on on the whim of the masses, but also for the benefit of their masters.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Alt Wally
Cardinal Ximinez
# 3245
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Posted
quote:
And prosperity is the enemy of religion, for the masses at least.
Not according to the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life which produced a report referenced in this article. To quote from it
Demographically speaking, the religiously unaffiliated are simultaneously unusually diverse and strikingly homogenous. The Pew survey reported that the increase in “nones” transcends income bracket, education level, and geographic region, dispelling the stereotype that people abandon religion because of higher education, increased wealth, or urbanization.
Charles Murray in his survey of white America from 1960 to 2010 - reviewed here - more or less says the same thing. Although I believe the numbers he has shows the upper income brackets have shown stability in religious observance with some decline during the forty year period studied. The rate of religious observance among the lower income brackets dropped precipitously along with a general disengagement in civic life. Something also shown I think in the Pew survey.
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Please let me know if I am being spectacularly dense, but I read that article as supporting my statement.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
The biggest drop offs in church attendance happened fairly universally in the western world around the 1960's.
Some people think it might have something to do with the government taking over the role of welfare.
This journal article says:
quote:
...we argue and empirically demonstrate that state welfare spending has a detrimental, albeit unintended, effect on long-term religious participation and overall religiosity.
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a theological scrapbook
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HughWillRidmee
Shipmate
# 15614
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
The biggest drop offs in church attendance happened fairly universally in the western world around the 1960's.
Some people think it might have something to do with the government taking over the role of welfare.
This journal article says:
quote:
...we argue and empirically demonstrate that state welfare spending has a detrimental, albeit unintended, effect on long-term religious participation and overall religiosity.
I'm sure that some churches in the USA (and other places) believe this - which is why they are so against what they misrepresent as "socialism". If the state provides a decent minimum level of support there's less reason to fund the church you used to rely on in the hope of food parcels etc.. That, the scientific method, the desire for, and availability of, consumer goods, the multiplicity of entertainment options and their ease of access, and, of course, education probably all contribute.
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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)
Posts: 894 | From: Middle England | Registered: Apr 2010
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
I think we must admit that Christianity is indeed in decline.
My understanding is that the decline in Europe and America is more than offset by the growth in Africa and Asia.
So, maybe in change rather than in decline.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
The equation of increased welfare with declining religion seems to have some credibility, and explains the anomaly of the US, but I think that in England, the working class became less religious after 1800.
But here you could describe increased affluence (compared with the rural poor), and urbanization.
Yet the middle class hung on to religion; so class seems to be a factor, hence the reference to Marx in the OP.
The reference to Freud is interesting, as therapists sometimes talk about therapy as secular confession.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Niminypiminy
Shipmate
# 15489
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Posted
Callum Brown's The Death of Christian Britain argues that there has been a precipitious decline in churchgoing in Britain since 1963, although there had been a disparity between Christian observance and Christian belief since the early nineteenth century. Brown argues that the decline in church-going is associated with social changes such as the decline of deference and the rise of individualism, legislative changes such as the Abortion Act of 1967, the growth of secular morality centred upon such things as freedom of sexual expression.
For Brown the decline of Christianity isn't so much located in urbanisation or social class as the decline of religiosity in women.
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Lives of the Saints: songs by The Unequal Struggle
http://www.theunequalstruggle.com/
Posts: 776 | From: Edge of the Fens | Registered: Feb 2010
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
@Horseman Bree - apologies, I should have mentioned the RCs. They were included in the mid-Victorian church census - and there were a lot of them too - particularly in the growing industrial areas with an influx of Irish.
I think it's right that there was a divergence between religious belief and church attendance from about 1800.
Poorer people, it was said, couldn't afford the pew rents and also didn't want to be 'seen' as poor ... they would have stuck out like sore thumbs among respectable or better-dressed church and chapel congregations.
Church and chapel attendance was largely a more middle-class thing ... although there were groups like the Primitive Methodists and later the Salvation Army which did a lot of work in poorer working class districts.
As far as it is possible to tell, converts in the Wesleyan revival tended to be from the ranks of the skilled artisans upwards ... although people of that 'rank' and upwards were more likely to be able to read and to leave records of their testimonies and so on. I'm thinking of guys like John Nelson the stone-mason who was Wesley's 'adjutant' in West Yorkshire.
The same had been true of Puritanism in previous centuries ... self-employed, tradesmen, small shopkeepers and merchants etc.
The 1960s saw the cataclysmic decline, but this process had been building up for decades before.
I've read a fascinating account of religious observance in Huddersfield and it's clear that church and chapel attendance dropped off dramatically as soon as public transport increased, as soon as the cinema provided an alternative to Band of Hope meetings and so on and as soon as there were other options available as to how one could spend one's time.
The decline in formal religious observance from 1920 onwards was very marked indeed - even if people still sent their kids to Sunday School.
In the mid-1960s a lot of us kids were still sent to Sunday School even though our parents stayed at home. This trend had largely disappeared by around 1970-1972 where I grew up.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
The decline in formal religious observance from 1920 onwards was very marked indeed - even if people still sent their kids to Sunday School.
In the mid-1960s a lot of us kids were still sent to Sunday School even though our parents stayed at home. This trend had largely disappeared by around 1970-1972 where I grew up.
Also, don't forget that the Sunday School movement itself had been started on the backs of a much an earlier decline in church attendance (among other things) a century or so earlier.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
starts
"Three Jews, three Jews
lit a fuse
under the bum
of Christendom"
Interestingly no mention of Darwin.
In each case however the fuse lighters became significant for the enthusiasm with which their views were taken up - suggesting that the time was right (in some vague sense) for such ideas.
Marx's 'religion is the opium of the people' could be read is the sort of attack that Jewish prophets regularly made against wealth and power. And indeed Marxism with its messianic undertones was influential in Liberation Theology. Perhaps others of those seen as destroying Christianity might be seen as more attacking religion as an institution and ideology than for its essential content.
And the religious wars of the 16-17th centuries weren't a great advert for peace and love. I think they deserve a mention.
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
Posts: 794 | From: here or there | Registered: Jun 2012
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Good point about Darwin there. Freud used to say that there had been 3 great decentrings in human thought - the disappearance of geocentrism (Copernicus); the loss of anthropocentrism in evolution (Darwin); and the dethroning of the ego, and the undermining of reason (Freud). Modest, eh?
It's been called species narcissism.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by que sais-je:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
starts
"Three Jews, three Jews
lit a fuse
under the bum
of Christendom"
Interestingly no mention of Darwin.
Because faith and science and education are not incompatible. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
One of the interesting things about Marx is that he both criticized religion, and also copied its messianic longing for a new world. Unfortunately, as with most utopian schemes, it crashed and burned.
But it seems to show that utopian or messianic longing is somehow inherent in humans, although it can be secularized. In fact, you could say that it is a very dangerous human predilection, easily manipulated; as citizen Robespierre was wont to say, 'terror is nothing else than justice, prompt, severe, inflexible'.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
It was in The Gravedigger File that I first read the line by G.K. Chesterton: quote:
At least five times the Christian faith has to all appearances gone to the dogs. In each of these five cases it was the dog that died
Let's not write any obituaries too soon.
I thought I'd look up the quote and see which the five times were:
"At least five times, therefore, with the Arian and the Albigensian, with the Humanist sceptic, after Voltaire and after Darwin, the Faith has to all appearance gone to the dogs. In each of these five cases it was the dog that died. How complete was the collapse and how strange the reversal, we cars only see in detail in the case nearest to our own time."
The first time, the Arians, we can easily see how well the Arians did at Nicea. Now I could make the case that the Faith went to the dogs at Nicea - and never recovered - but I'm sure that's not what he means. But his example of choice is Darwin, "killed" by the Tractarians who brought conviction back to the Church.
Which is in part an analogy for the problems the Church faces today - better illustrated by a particularly famous and almost cliched quote from Yeats' The Second Coming. "The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity" Which is exactly the problem lighting a fire under Western Christianity. What does Western Christianity stand for?
The stereotypical liberal Christian does indeed lack all conviction and is one step away from benevolent deism - a message that inspires very few.
As for the stereotypical conservative Christian? Who frequently are full of passionate intensity - and so vastly more inspiring than the John Shelby Spongs and Rowan Williams of this world? Their main public cause is advocating homophobia, frequently with a side order of sexism. The Roman Catholic Church, the Church of England, and the Church of Scotland are all campaigners against equal marriage. This is what they put their reputations on the line for. In America the largest Protestant denomination is the SBC - who are homophobic and were founded on a pro slavery platform (and let's not get into George Whitefield, star of the Great Awakening and Slavery Advocate).
So from my perspective the problem is not about what lit the fire. Things fall apart. The centre can not hold. The best lack all conviction while the worst are full of a passionate intensity.
Surely some revelation is at hand?
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Indeed they aren't, but people think they are incompatible.
Lack of education and a misunderstanding of the scientific method.
[ 04. September 2014, 11:29: Message edited by: Evensong ]
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Further to the point about human narcissism receiving multiple shocks, here is Freud describing the final one:
"But man's craving for grandiosity is now suffering the third and most bitter blow from present-day psychological research which is endeavoring to prove to the ego of each one of us that he is not even master in his own house, but that he must remain content with the veriest scraps of information about what is going on unconsciously in his own mind."
Introductory lectures on psychoanalysis.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
'Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are these words out
When a vast image out of 'Spiritus Mundi'
Troubles my sight: somewhere in the sands of the desert ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Further to the point about human narcissism receiving multiple shocks, here is Freud describing the final one:
"But man's craving for grandiosity is now suffering the third and most bitter blow from present-day psychological research which is endeavoring to prove to the ego of each one of us that he is not even master in his own house, but that he must remain content with the veriest scraps of information about what is going on unconsciously in his own mind."
Introductory lectures on psychoanalysis.
I believe it was Marx, Nietszche and Freud that were responsible for the "hermeneutics of suspicion" in theology.
Important contributors but not unassailable odds for the thoughtful.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
So from my perspective the problem is not about what lit the fire. Things fall apart. The centre can not hold. The best lack all conviction while the worst are full of a passionate intensity.
The best do not lack all conviction: they acknowledge ambiguity while still proclaiming Christ.
But perhaps that's not sexy.
But if you're proclaiming the truth, you can't worry too much about sexy: it's the way of the world after all.
We are called to be faithful to the truth. If that means the decline of the church so be it.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Incidentally, on post-modernism, it simultaneously undermines religion as an authoritative narrative concerning truth, while also rehabilitating it, since in the 'multiple narratives' recommended by pm, the religious narrative is as valid as any other. Thus quite a number of post-modern thinkers have become interested in Christianity, e.g. Derrida and Zizek.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
So from my perspective the problem is not about what lit the fire. Things fall apart. The centre can not hold. The best lack all conviction while the worst are full of a passionate intensity.
The best do not lack all conviction: they acknowledge ambiguity while still proclaiming Christ.
But perhaps that's not sexy.
But if you're proclaiming the truth, you can't worry too much about sexy: it's the way of the world after all.
We are called to be faithful to the truth. If that means the decline of the church so be it.
Conviction in this case is about the confidence with which you move. To take the obvious example of the CofE, at an institutional level is made up of a mix of homophobes and people more worried about upsetting the homophobes than those the homophobes are hurting. That's what "Lack all conviction" means.
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
One thing that used to puzzle me is that Christianity starts with a negative premise, that God is not here. As a kid, and afterwards, it struck me that s/he was.
Anyways, I could manage that paradox for a long time, but eventually it cracked open.
But many of my friends say the same thing, so I don't know how much this has contributed to the decline; maybe not all that much, since I am talking about people who think about such things, and maybe today, many people don't.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
Conviction in this case is about the confidence with which you move. To take the obvious example of the CofE, at an institutional level is made up of a mix of homophobes and people more worried about upsetting the homophobes than those the homophobes are hurting. That's what "Lack all conviction" means.
Ah I see. Conviction is about decision making? How very corporate businessy and bourgeoisie an idea.
Thankfully the CofE has not succumbed.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Well, the C of E has succumbed to homophobia, at an institutional level. Do you think possibly this might repel people? Bet your sweet bippy it does.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
One thing that used to puzzle me is that Christianity starts with a negative premise, that God is not here.
You wha......???
The Christian conviction is precisely the opposite. God is here in the incarnation and the risen Christ.
"I will be with you always - till the end of the age".
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
One thing that used to puzzle me is that Christianity starts with a negative premise, that God is not here.
You wha......???
The Christian conviction is precisely the opposite. God is here in the incarnation and the risen Christ.
"I will be with you always - till the end of the age".
Hang on. I think you are misconstruing me. I didn't say that God is here in the incarnation. I said God is here. There is quite a big difference.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
And the risen Christ that has promised to be with us always...? That means God is here. Now.
Fair enough; so there is no need for Christ, because God is here now. I agree.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Evensong
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# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
And the risen Christ that has promised to be with us always...? That means God is here. Now.
Fair enough; so there is no need for Christ, because God is here now. I agree.
Not sure how to you came to that conclusion. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
It seems to me that Yoga and using electronic gadgets have replaced liturgy and contemplation. But that's a very recent trend, so merely the newest set of absorbing activities.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Justinian
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# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
Conviction in this case is about the confidence with which you move. To take the obvious example of the CofE, at an institutional level is made up of a mix of homophobes and people more worried about upsetting the homophobes than those the homophobes are hurting. That's what "Lack all conviction" means.
Ah I see. Conviction is about decision making? How very corporate businessy and bourgeoisie an idea.
Thankfully the CofE has not succumbed.
Lack all conviction in the case of the CofE means starting a "listening process" in the hope the problem goes away. The CofE has succumbed and the consequences are obvious.
As I pointed out on the linked thread, the average age of congregations is over 60 - and just under half of CofE congregations have fewer than 5 members under 16. That's not a healthy demographic profile - and it's boosted by people forced through the door to get their kids into a good school.
[ 04. September 2014, 13:56: Message edited by: Justinian ]
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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IconiumBound
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# 754
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Posted
The one factor of earlier church decline that has not been mentioned is the popularization of the automobile by Henry Ford. In its time the Sunday church was the only thing to do on a Sunday but the auto gave the family a new choice.
Has there been a similar technological development that brings the new church decline into being?
Posts: 1318 | From: Philadelphia, PA, USA | Registered: Jul 2001
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
One thing that used to puzzle me is that Christianity starts with a negative premise, that God is not here. As a kid, and afterwards, it struck me that s/he was.
Also different teaching, since I've never heard that God is not here though I'd put it differently than Evensong does. I'd say that two of the persons are not here, but the Holy Spirit assuredly is supposed to be here. Bad teaching perhaps?
I'm not saying that vicars get up in church and announce that God is not here! But isn't it a presupposition? Otherwise, if God is here now, then there is no need for Christ, no need to go to church, or pray, or believe in Jesus?
For example, my oldest friend was a Sufi, and he used to say that God is here now. He was not a Christian, of course, although he liked Christian imagery and narratives (as I do). But they are not required, to be with God (in my opinion, of course).
My wife is a kind of New Age pagan, and she thinks that God is here now, but she does not ... anyway, you get the message.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Evensong
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# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
Lack all conviction in the case of the CofE means starting a "listening process" in the hope the problem goes away. The CofE has succumbed and the consequences are obvious.
Not at all. What they're trying to do is make the best of an impossible situation. I call that (as I said above) "acknowledging ambiguity while still proclaiming Christ."
I think they did "succumb" to some decisions in the 1998 Lambeth however so maybe I should eat my own shorts.
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
As I pointed out on the linked thread, the average age of congregations is over 60 - and just under half of CofE congregations have fewer than 5 members under 16. That's not a healthy demographic profile - and it's boosted by people forced through the door to get their kids into a good school.
I don't think that has much to do with the gay issue. The decline began around the 60's in most western civilisations.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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