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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Church in Wales ... numbers down ...
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
I think- I hope- I trust- that all that 100 Hymns for Today / Sound of Living Waters stuff is NOT what Byron had in mind! (Our otherwise excellent vicar has said she's going to slip one or two from that latter stable in every now and then 'now that the students are coming back'. Given that it wasn't especially new when I was a yoof 30+ years ago, I think one of us might have to have a word with her...)
I've no idea what is going round now, and don't particularly want to have one. I like Proper School Hymns (TM), me. But if the price of getting people in is having a bit of other stuff too, it's a price worth paying.
[ 09. September 2014, 20:11: Message edited by: Albertus ]
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Lord Pontivillian
Shipmate
# 14308
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Posted
I was at a Cafe Church service in Horsham at which the organist made a comment about the fact that children don't know the hymns that we are used to singing in church. A clergy friend of mine admitted that he didn't know most of the hymns either!
My point is that I worry that we cling to our old hymns that comfort us but have no relevance to people outside our circle. A lot of hymns are in a language we do not speak today - thee's and thou's, a point made by my spell-checker! This isn't a problem confined to the old hymns, as attested by some of the jargon used in some of Robin Mark's songs.
The challenge is to get people to hear the gospel in a way that doesn't put them off. We have to teach people the language and jargon before we can expect them to feel comfortable in using it.
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The Church in Wales is Ancient, Catholic and Deformed - Typo found in old catechism.
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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
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Posted
quote:
This is a rather amusing paragraph. It looks the problem right in the eye and then says "I see nothing." As a convert from the ever-growing cradle non-religious crowd, let me put this plainly: nobody from the outside needs any fuzziness from you, whatsoever. We can do fuzzy perfectly fine without any church, it's a fuzzy world through and through. Fuzziness is an internal accommodation, it's how you keep people that are in your church already from leaving. If you want to attract new people, they need to have a reason to start dedicating their time and money to you. And unless you have something clear to offer - even if it is a bit of an advertisement lie - why would anybody feel like shopping for their spiritual needs with you? In particular if they are not even aware of having any spiritual needs.
Speaking as a convert from atheism to Christianity, this is bang on. We don't need the church to provide us with a bit of vague inoffensive spirituality plus a side order of social justice. We can do that ourselves, without the encumbrance of having to get up early on a Sunday morning to engage in a bunch of culturally alien rituals in a cold half empty building. I realise that's horribly blunt, but it is how it is.
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
a bit of vague inoffensive spirituality plus a side order of social justice
is the last thing I had in mind. I am thinking of a burning and positive radical equality and acceptance and validation of all people- created in the image of God, fallen and capable of redemption- rooted in the fundamental value of all people in the eyes of God as demonstrated by the Incarnation, and acted out through, among other things, the Eucharist. And yes, that is demanding because it means you have to be ready to encounter people in a different and difficult way that is profundly opposed to the arid market liberalism of our age. Fuzzy only in the sense that it requires us to accept that none of us has all the answers and that we are navigating our way through an imperfect world and that it is through the imperfections that the lioght sometimes shines.
Whether you think that is worth getting up for, I don't know. But for me, it's why, now more than ever, the Parish Eucharist is the best part of my week.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Yeah but that's what the priests serving up the vague spirituality with a side order of social justice say they are doing already. You and Yerevan are talking about the same thing just from different perspectives. Being radically inclusive isn't enough. Who cares if a place you have no reason to go is willing to welcome you with open arms?
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
I'm not going to reply to this, not because I ddon't have a reply to it, but because I know you will always insist on having the last word.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
We need to get much more mission-minded. Maybe I overdo the fuzziness, but I mean it as shorthand for not claiming to have all the answers. And it bothers me very much that this sort of Christianity is declining while the Christianities that are resisting or reversing decline seem all to often to be full of cheapjack simplistic assurance.
The big switch off is not a position where we don't claim to have al the answers - its where we don't seem to have any (possible for fear of offence).
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
Indeed. And half the problem is that the church has a reputation of not believing what its own holy book tells them.
Why should anyone buy into a product that its salesmen don't think is any good?
What would you have us do? Pretend to believe stuff we don't?
Anyway, the product isn't the Bible. And having reservations about some of its contents (genocide, religiously motivated murder, the sort of laws that we decry when proponents of Shariah law want them, you know) isn't so much not thinking it's any good, but not thinking it's all good. If that's fuzzy; if that's what's to blame, sorry, but what would you have me do? Pretend slaughtering babies is cool?
Tell me I'm wrong that what you want is for liberals to either stop being liberals or get out of the church and stop claiming to be Christians, because that's what I'm hearing.
[ 10. September 2014, 08:47: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
However we 'do church' and whatever style or language we use, I think Lord Pontivillian is on the money ... we are operating in a largely post-Christian environment and people don't have the foggiest idea what we're on about.
Catechesis and explanation is required.
As for the best ways to go about that ...
Answers on a postcard pleased ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
I'm not going to reply to this, not because I ddon't have a reply to it, but because I know you will always insist on having the last word.
So very radically inclusive and what not. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
However we 'do church' and whatever style or language we use, I think Lord Pontivillian is on the money ... we are operating in a largely post-Christian environment and people don't have the foggiest idea what we're on about.
Catechesis and explanation is required.
As for the best ways to go about that ...
Answers on a postcard pleased ...
Christians have to do a better job catechizing new members both young and old. Parents can't say that church is important and then make everything other than church a priority. For me, I struggle with how people can talk about how meaningful the Eucharist is and then gripe about service times on Sunday morning and how long it lasts. Usually, the main liturgy lasts around an hour. I don't think it needs to be any longer than that. However, if you are telling people that in some way God is truly present in the Eucharist, why make such a big deal about how long it lasts or what time it takes place?
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
I'm not going to reply to this, not because I ddon't have a reply to it, but because I know you will always insist on having the last word.
So very radically inclusive and what not.
QED
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
No, I don't let posts containing an ad hominem be the last word.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Ok - so how would you go about explaining to those who complain that if they really thought the Eucharist was important they wouldn't complain about the timings and how long it lasts etc?
Could you do that without pissing them off in some way?
I'd imagine you could but given the 'choice' and 'self-reliance' elements within our western culture, would also imagine that you'd meet a pretty frosty reception.
I don't know what the answer is. We aren't living in medieval Europe or 19th century Russia.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
I just come out and say it. I've said it several times in various settings from sermons to informal conversations. Parishioners can at least admit that what I'm saying is true even if they still gripe about such stuff under their breath. Any congregation filled with people obsessed with service times and exact length of the service is already dead. I'm not talking about expecting an hour long service and getting a 2 1/2 hour service. I'm talking about people griping about a service that last an hour and ten minutes when they wanted to get to the coffee and donuts before the top of the hour.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Perhaps I'm naive, but I must admit I'm surprised to hear that this is the case in your parish, Beeswax Altar.
Perhaps the Southern Baptist caricatures of country-club 'cultural Christian' US 'Piskies are true after all ...
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
(Ducks to avoid incoming Cruise missile)
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Touchstone
Shipmate
# 3560
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Posted
To drag this back to the OP...
I play the organ at a large-ish vaguely AFFcath anglican church in Cardiff (100+ on an ordinary Sunday morning) and numbers have risen slowly in recent years. The next Parish gets more I think, but they're ultra-high with good choral music and attract people from all over SE Wales who like that kind of thing. There are 2 (that I can think of) properly big evangelical Anglican churches in the city, and numerous others of all flavours that are doing OK.
My point? I'm not being complacent, but the Church in Wales around here is not (yet) in terminal decline. However, Wales is a (mainly) sparsely populated country. Most of us live in the southern coastal strip. The greater part of Wales is very empty, with poor communication links. The church (and public services generally) are stretched very thin. Rural clergy with multiple parishes have little time for anything except presiding at services and attending church meetings. I know people in isolated areas have as much right to be ministered to as the rest of us, but how long can the church continue to maintain its parish system for the sake of tiny, dwindling and ageing congregations?
The Harris report proposed some radical changes, some of which at least are being adopted. The C in W has moved a long way in the last 20 years. At last, it is recognising the vital importance of lay ministry. Admittedly it's doing it largely because it can't afford to pay enough full time clergy, but people elsewhere should not get the impression that the Anglican church in Wales is just sitting around in despair waiting for death.
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Jez we did hand the next election to the Tories on a plate!
Posts: 163 | From: Somewhere west of Bristol | Registered: Nov 2002
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Lord Pontivillian
Shipmate
# 14308
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Posted
The numbers are dropping rapidly in the Valleys, if what I am seeing is average. However I am just a pew warmer!
I wonder if Cardiff is blessed by what I would describe as the "London Effect?" That is to say that everyone flocks to the City, often to the detriment of their nearest church. This is more easily done when Cardiff is only an hour away by Car, has universities and jobs.
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The Church in Wales is Ancient, Catholic and Deformed - Typo found in old catechism.
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
Part of the problem with some suggestions is that it involves More of the Same......which will merely result in...More of the Same.
Discussing how one can preach to people rather ignores that fact that folk ain't in the pews.
[ 11. September 2014, 17:34: Message edited by: Ethne Alba ]
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Lord Pontivillian
Shipmate
# 14308
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Posted
The question that nobody likes to ask is what do we have to change to get people into our pews. Maybe getting rid of pews would be a start! I wonder if we have got too used to the way that we do things to wonder why we do things. Do we go to Church to seek God or to have a piece of brad and wine with our friends?
I fear that for many people in the church there are going to be uncomfortable times ahead, either that or the Church will die. We seem to be acting as if nothing has happened and we are still in the past.
I believe that this Christianity lark is supposed to bring us more to the likeness of Christ. How many Churches actually display that likeness to the outside world? The social stuff is great, but where are the calls to repent as a society? The heart of the gospel isn't about being nice, it is about getting closer to God.
Of course all this is my own opinion and I could be talking garbage!
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The Church in Wales is Ancient, Catholic and Deformed - Typo found in old catechism.
Posts: 665 | From: Horsham | Registered: Nov 2008
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Pontivillian:
The question that nobody likes to ask is what do we have to change to get people into our pews. Maybe getting rid of pews would be a start! I wonder if we have got too used to the way that we do things to wonder why we do things. Do we go to Church to seek God or to have a piece of brad and wine with our friends?
I like this but would go plenty further myself! For me, the question is what do we have to do to bring the good news of Jesus and his kingdom to people?
That might involve getting people 'into church' but I think for many people these days (when fewer and fewer people have any heritage / connection with Christianity) it actually involves getting 'church into them'. By which I mean showing people what difference Christ makes to us individually and as a community; trying to form community between our Christian friends and our non-Christian friends etc.
IMO getting rid of pews is a start, but just the start...
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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Lord Pontivillian
Shipmate
# 14308
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
I like this but would go plenty further myself! For me, the question is what do we have to do to bring the good news of Jesus and his kingdom to people?
That might involve getting people 'into church' but I think for many people these days (when fewer and fewer people have any heritage / connection with Christianity) it actually involves getting 'church into them'. By which I mean showing people what difference Christ makes to us individually and as a community; trying to form community between our Christian friends and our non-Christian friends etc.
IMO getting rid of pews is a start, but just the start...
I think this nails it on the head. We need to be a missionary church again. The last thing we ought to be doing in putting on special services for the outsider. Part of the reason they might be an outsider might be that our Church buildings are a barrier to them.
To reach people means stepping out of our buildings, going to the people. This is of course difficult. What if the people laugh?
I am as guilty and hypocritical of not going out as anyone. Please pray for me!
[ 11. September 2014, 18:20: Message edited by: Lord Pontivillian ]
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The Church in Wales is Ancient, Catholic and Deformed - Typo found in old catechism.
Posts: 665 | From: Horsham | Registered: Nov 2008
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Pontivillian:
To reach people means stepping out of our buildings, going to the people. This is of course difficult. What if the people laugh?
Well, Jesus' advice (in his culture; I'm not saying we should directly copy) was to shake the dust off your feet and keep looking for someone who'll welcome you and the message that the kingdom of God is near...
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Pontivillian:
I am as guilty and hypocritical of not going out as anyone. Please pray for me!
You and me both! ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
You're right. We have to find out, and do, what the contemporary equivalent is of sending out wandering friars to preach in marketplaces.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Open Air Campaigners!!
(Yes I did lots of this at one time, and so did at least one other Shipmate. And yes it was fun. There's something about walking past a street corner in Paris and thinking "hmm, I remember preaching there").
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Lord Pontivillian
Shipmate
# 14308
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Posted
Thank you for the link. I always commend Jehovah's Witnesses for their willingness to walk the streets and I think what OAC is doing is a good guide for the future. Bringing people into faith requires good communication without compromising on what we believe.
[ 11. September 2014, 21:37: Message edited by: Lord Pontivillian ]
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The Church in Wales is Ancient, Catholic and Deformed - Typo found in old catechism.
Posts: 665 | From: Horsham | Registered: Nov 2008
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Lord Pontivillian
Shipmate
# 14308
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Posted
Darllenwr came into my room and handed me his thoughts on this topic.
quote:
The mistake we make lies in thing that "getting people into church" means getting them inside a building, rather than drawing them amongst a people
I hope that I have read his writing correctly. I believe the thought, behind the words, is do people see the Church as a building or the body of Christ?
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The Church in Wales is Ancient, Catholic and Deformed - Typo found in old catechism.
Posts: 665 | From: Horsham | Registered: Nov 2008
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Pontivillian:
Darllenwr came into my room and handed me his thoughts on this topic.
quote:
The mistake we make lies in thing that "getting people into church" means getting them inside a building, rather than drawing them amongst a people
I hope that I have read his writing correctly. I believe the thought, behind the words, is do people see the Church as a building or the body of Christ?
Host puts on puzzled Hat
As a general rule we can only quote what a Shipmate has posted here and none of us is free to change the words of a quote. Basic reason is to avoid misrepresentation and ensure also that each of us takes personal responsibility under the guidelines for what we post.
But this looks pretty innocent and well intentioned. Is there a reason why Darllenwyr didn't simply post himself?
Barnabas62
Purgatory Host
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Lord Pontivillian
Shipmate
# 14308
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Posted
Sorry. He was going to bed and switched his computer off before having the idea for the post.
Posts: 665 | From: Horsham | Registered: Nov 2008
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
OK, it gets a pass this time. Next time inspiration strikes late on, please power up or wait until morning!
Barnabas62
Purgatory Host
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
As you all know, it'd take more than pulling out the pews to reverse the tide of secularism in Wales and elsewhere.
I know a church which pulled its pews out and replaced them with more flexible - and comfortable - seating and that's gone down very well in the town ... it's used for concerts and all sorts of other events.
In and of itself, it hasn't resulted in any more people attending the services - although it is still packed at Christmas and Easter - if not at other times of year.
Of course, with the residual awareness of Christianity decreasing, we're all going to have to do something better than we are doing ...
I've often asked South Coast Kevin how we can go about making the Gospel more attractive to people by the way we live and conduct ourselves ... so far - and this isn't intended as a criticism - I've not seen him come up with anything concrete other than by showing that we don't get angry or depressed at work etc ... (as if we would! ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) )
Sure, the Gospel should make a difference to how we conduct ourselves - but it should make us more fully human not less ... but that's a different issue ...
I'm still struggling to envisage what South Coast Kevin's super-duper 'better than what we've got now' Christianity should look like. It's easy to point at the Book of Acts and say, 'Let's have some of that ...' but the fact is, I don't see a great deal of evidence that any of us have that at all ... at least, not consistently.
If Acts was supposed to be the 'norm' then how do we get to that 'level' as it were? Chucking out the pews and going 'GNNNNNnnnn ...' until we work ourselves up into some heightened state of holiness doesn't appear to work.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'm still struggling to envisage what South Coast Kevin's super-duper 'better than what we've got now' Christianity should look like. It's easy to point at the Book of Acts and say, 'Let's have some of that ...' but the fact is, I don't see a great deal of evidence that any of us have that at all ... at least, not consistently.
Two quick ideas:
Serious commitment to Christ in terms of sustained, deliberate intention to order our lives as he did - prayer, fasting, celebration, service to others, study and meditation of the Bible etc. (yes, I've drunk the spiritual disciplines kool-aid!);
Massive flexibility about how we actually 'do' church, with pretty much anything up for questioning and change, in service to the mission of sharing the gospel with people in a way that is accessible and relevant to them.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
As far as 'getting people in' goes, we need to make sure that anyone who wanders into church by chance finds a warm welcome - but not something so OTT that they feel engulfed.
We also need to recognise that some people find the idea of a 'service' off-putting unless it has some (for them) specific purpose. That is why there are larger congregations at Christmas, Easter and Harvest, because people can see the point of being in the building, even if it is just so they can see little Jason dressed as a shepherd.
The next step has to be making services that are relevant (horrible word) or likely to be wanted - but this in itself is a huge bear-trap. What most congregations take this to mean is to spice-up their usual services: IME this is completely wrong. We have discovered that what some non-attenders are looking for is something that makes sense to them so think 'special' services: celebrations for marriage and family life; memorial services for those in the village who've died during the year; turn your patronal festival into a celebration of the place of the building in the life of the community, etc, etc, etc.
In our small village we get a full (standing-room only) church for our All Souls requiem, which is always the Faure: this is not because the choir is outstanding (although they are pretty good) but because everyone in the villages knows they can come to give thanks for and remember their relatives.
Similarly, our marriage and family life celebration is attended not just by those married in the church but by couples from the village who've married elsewhere but want to mark it as part of the village community.
Religion-lite? Maybe, but these are things that those who don't normally attend want and they come - and some then dip their toe into the more run-of-the-mill services and stay.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
I've read on another website that the CinW is mostly quite high, and there's less of the diversity that's apparent in the CofE. Is this an advantage or a disadvantage? It should at least help the CinW to present a less confusing image to the world.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
There are evangelical, MoR and Anglo-Catholic and liberal catholic parishes in the CinW as there are in the CofE.
If I were to make a generalisation - and there are always exceptions to every rule - I would say that if there was a default position within the CinW it would be towards the higher end of the MoR spectrum ... but certainly not 'nose-bleed high'.
This was partly a conscious stance to differentiate themselves from the surrounding largely non-conformist chapel culture ...
That's less of an issue these days as the chapels are struggling just as much - if not more so - than the Church in Wales is.
As Lord Pontivillian says, it's a different issue with Cardiff as a kind of 'London effect' applies there so you'll get thriving churches of all kinds there in a way that you might not in a town like Tregaron or even Aberystwyth ...
To quote George Borrow in Wild Wales when he encounters a cattle drover in mid-Wales ...
"And what kind of place is Tregaron?"
"Oh, a very good place. Not quite as big as London ..."
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
Ah well, I suppose the CinW is doing its best, considering the circumstances. It can't change too much without damaging its sense of identity, can it?
As it happens, one of my relatives is married to a Pentecostal pastor in Cardiff. I met her recently at a family funeral abroad and asked her about the Welsh Revival, but the next time we meet I'll have to bring up the CinW. Perhaps the way forward involves greater ecumenical engagement.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
In what way should it change, SvitlanaV2?
Take out the pews? Try to be more Pentecostal?
Should your Pentecostal relatives try to be more Anglican?
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
I'm always concerned that if churches refashion themselves to attract the unchurched, the unchurched still won't come and the regular attenders won't like the changes and will stop coming. I've seen this happen in a church that I used to attend. I now attend a different church and we see growing attendance of people who have also left the now 'trendy' church.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
In what way should it change, SvitlanaV2?
Take out the pews? Try to be more Pentecostal?
Should your Pentecostal relatives try to be more Anglican?
That's the opposite of what I said! I said that the CinW was doing its best, and it probably couldn't change too much without losing its identity. IOW, I agree with you that trying to do things differently would be very difficult!
As for the Pentecostals, however, I implied that they might consider engaging in more ecumenical ventures with the CinW. (Perhaps they already do. I don't know.) Ecumenicalism rarely brings in more people, but it creates good feeling and it enables resources to be used more efficiently.
[ 12. September 2014, 14:38: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Ok - I misunderstood your point, SvitlanaV2.
I'd be interested to hear if there are ecumenical initiatives between the Pentecostals and the CinW. There was precious little of that when I was growing up in the Principality ...
I suspect there'll be some initiatives but on the whole - and this probably still holds true - religion is fairly segmented demographically in Wales ... at least it was when I was growing up.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Darllenwr
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# 14520
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Posted
Barnabas62, please accept my apologies for causing confusion - what I actually said to Lord P, as I was going to bed, was; "The mistake we make lies in thinking that, 'getting people into church', means getting them inside a building, rather than drawing them amongst a people". He said, "Can you write that down for me?" I obliged and he asked whether he could post it on the thread. I said, "By all means" - it made no odds to me whether he claimed it as his own or attributed it to Santa Claus.
Responding to Svitlana, the Church in Wales comes at all heights on the candle. Llandaff diocese (this one) tends to be on the high side, but my own parish is snake-belly low. Admittedly, we've dropped a bit in the last 18 months, but we always bucked the trend here. The next parish north is bells and smells, whilst the next-but-one parish to the south can out-Roman the Romans. I should add that the parish to the north is very much on the charismatic end of high. We are increasingly charismatic-evangelical.
As has been said, it takes all sorts to make liquorice but I don't think I could safely say that there is a "magic approach" that packs the people in.
The point has been well made that there is a profound ignorance of what Christianity is about outside the walls of the church. I find that a lot of people know what they think Christianity should be about (in their opinion) and it usually bears very little resemblance to what our Church believes! Having said which, I am only too aware that many of our congregation are not too sure what they believe themselves. If we don't know what we believe, what chance does the world outside have?
There is a need for sound teaching (refer to Hebrews 6: 1,2 for the course synopsis!) within the Church, so that the Church actually knows what it is talking about for a change . I often wonder how many of our congregation would fare in a stand-up debate with Jehovah's Witnesses - not too well, I suspect. Should this be a sort-of bench mark - can you defend your own faith to somebody who questions it?
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If I've told you once, I've told you a million times: I do not exaggerate!
Posts: 1101 | From: The catbox | Registered: Jan 2009
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Darllenwr:
There is a need for sound teaching (refer to Hebrews 6: 1,2 for the course synopsis!) within the Church, so that the Church actually knows what it is talking about for a change . I often wonder how many of our congregation would fare in a stand-up debate with Jehovah's Witnesses - not too well, I suspect. Should this be a sort-of bench mark - can you defend your own faith to somebody who questions it?
If ordinary lay people can't give a simple account of what they believe and why they feel justified in the faith they have, how on earth are they supposed to share the Good News with anyone else? 'Go tell it on the mountain'? How? Why?
But as I say, I think this challenge would be very hard work for many congregations and clergy. Maybe their role is simply to supply an ongoing 'Christian presence' in their communities. They need to think of a sustainable way of doing that that doesn't require lots of money and energetic manpower.
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Darllenwr:
Should this be a sort-of bench mark - can you defend your own faith to somebody who questions it?
Now, there's an idea. I wish I had had it when I stumbled on SoF a decade ago. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'm still struggling to envisage what South Coast Kevin's super-duper 'better than what we've got now' Christianity should look like. It's easy to point at the Book of Acts and say, 'Let's have some of that ...' but the fact is, I don't see a great deal of evidence that any of us have that at all ... at least, not consistently.
Two quick ideas:
Serious commitment to Christ in terms of sustained, deliberate intention to order our lives as he did - prayer, fasting, celebration, service to others, study and meditation of the Bible etc. (yes, I've drunk the spiritual disciplines kool-aid!);
Massive flexibility about how we actually 'do' church, with pretty much anything up for questioning and change, in service to the mission of sharing the gospel with people in a way that is accessible and relevant to them.
How would what you say be put into practice - the unchurched are not very likely to go into a meeting where the only advice is a sandwich board on the footpath outside a school or some such. And your second paragraph really avoids the question by not giving any clues about what is "accessible and relevant" to the vast majority.
I don't understand what "do church" means.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Touchstone
Shipmate
# 3560
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Posted
These days, the main way of making something "accessible and relevant" to people is to do it online, probably via social media. Secular businesses and public services are actively trying to move their customers away from expensive physical buildings.
This was very much not the case when we first started having these discussions about how to make our churches "relevant", decades and decades ago. However now, as then, these discussions founder on the question of "so what are we going to actually DO ?"
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Jez we did hand the next election to the Tories on a plate!
Posts: 163 | From: Somewhere west of Bristol | Registered: Nov 2002
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South Coast Kevin
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# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
How would what you say be put into practice - the unchurched are not very likely to go into a meeting where the only advice is a sandwich board on the footpath outside a school or some such. And your second paragraph really avoids the question by not giving any clues about what is "accessible and relevant" to the vast majority.
I don't understand what "do church" means.
Well, my point behind the spiritual disciplines thing is really that we Christians are all adverts for Jesus, through the way we live our lives - how we interact with those around us, how we spend our time and money etc. IMO church happens following on from Christians making disciples - i.e. teaching people to follow Christ's ways and patterns of life. We should, I think, focus on the making disciples bit far more than the building church bit (i.e. inviting people to our church services and other activities).
As for what I meant by 'do church' - simply this; where, when, how often we meet together, what happens at our meetings together, who decides what happens. The nuts and bolts of our meetings together, basically.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
How are the unchurched to know of our spiritual disciplines and again, what do you mean by accessible and relevant.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
So, how do we actually make disciples? That's the $64,000 question ...
What does it actually involve?
And is it more likely to happen if we are meeting in Starbucks or a hired school hall with a banner or A-board outside than it is in a conventional church building?
I was involved with a Baptist church plant which did the hired hall and A-board bit and whilst I enjoyed my time there I'm not sure how it was any more successful in creating and sustaining disciples than the parent church up the road with its established presence, mums & toddlers groups and everything else ...
There might be a new thread there.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
How are the unchurched to know of our spiritual disciplines
They're probably not! What they are to know of is our good character (love, joy, kindness, gentleness etc.) which is produced by our practising of spiritual disciplines.
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
...what do you mean by accessible and relevant.
A few examples - the language used in our church services / gatherings to be contemporary language; questions and contributions from all people to be allowed (rather than it essentially being a performance led by a small number of people from the pulpit / stage / altar); contemporary cultural media to be used (e.g. songs that sound contemporary); real questions of life to be addressed, instead of abstract, theoretical sermons that don't explain what faith in Christ actually means in the context of modern-day living.
Some of that is probably drifting into caricature, but I hope the contrasts I've drawn show what I had in mind with 'accessible and relevant'.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
posted by Gamaliel quote:
So, how do we actually make disciples? That's the $64,000 question ...
Maybe you shouldn't start out with the mindset 'Let's go out and make disciples'!
We have a shining example of someone making disciples - Jesus - and he only made 12 although there were many more (sometimes fickle) followers, so maybe what you want to do is to get 'followers' rather than disciples.
You deride the outreach of some churches: 'mums & toddlers groups and everything else' which is odd: think of Matthew 5:16 [Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven]. Being in the church building doesn't have to be limiting, nor does using it: bringing people into the building for events other than 'worship' is not wrong or selling-out, it is inviting people into our home. So don't knock the mum and toddler groups, or the lunch clubs - they are showing your light.
After all, the old adage 'actions speak louder than words' is just another way of saying 'you shall know them by their fruits'.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Stejjie
Shipmate
# 13941
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
You deride the outreach of some churches: 'mums & toddlers groups and everything else' which is odd: think of Matthew 5:16 [Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven]. Being in the church building doesn't have to be limiting, nor does using it: bringing people into the building for events other than 'worship' is not wrong or selling-out, it is inviting people into our home. So don't knock the mum and toddler groups, or the lunch clubs - they are showing your light.
Yea and amen to this. "Attractional" mission (ie mission that seeks to draw non-believers to the church) seems to have got a bad press in some quarters, as "incarnational" mission (ie going to where the people are) seems to have been accepted as more Christ-like. I'm not sure: partly because I'm minister of a church that could fairly be described as attractional, partly because I think it's a false dichotomoy - both approaches, ISTM, are needed and both can co-exist within the same church.
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Well, my point behind the spiritual disciplines thing is really that we Christians are all adverts for Jesus, through the way we live our lives - how we interact with those around us, how we spend our time and money etc. IMO church happens following on from Christians making disciples - i.e. teaching people to follow Christ's ways and patterns of life. We should, I think, focus on the making disciples bit far more than the building church bit (i.e. inviting people to our church services and other activities).
I'm not sure this gets the relationship between church and disciple-making the right way round: correct me if I'm wrong, but it sees disciple-making as the thing and church as a place, or a resource (albeit an important one) that helps that process to happen. Would that be fair - apologies if not!!
If it is fair, then I'd want to suggest the church is much more than that. I think the church comes first: that is, becoming a Christian is much more than just an individual decision to become a disciples of Christ. Certainly in the NT, it seems to be intimately linked with becoming part of the Church - you can't become a Christian without entering into the Church. Which is part of what baptism is supposed to be all about, isn't it (which makes it a shame that I think us Baptists place the emphasis on baptism as sign of conversion and obedience to Christ and perhaps lost the link with baptism as entering into the church).
The closest us Baptists have to a liturgist, Chris Ellis, suggests that gathered worship (eg Sunday services) isn't just Christians deciding to gather to worship, but God gathering us together as his ekklesia, his assembly, his people to glorify his name. I think there's something in this and that it goes wider than worship: it suggests to me that part of the whole point of us being Christians is to be part of the church, God's people. Disciple-making, which is critically important, then comes within that context: we become part of the church and within the church learn to be followers of Christ.
Where I'd agree 100% with you is that I don't think we do place enough emphasis on the disciple-making part.
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A not particularly-alt-worshippy, fairly mainstream, mildly evangelical, vaguely post-modern-ish Baptist
Posts: 1117 | From: Urmston, Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2008
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