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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Church in Wales ... numbers down ...
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
A few examples - the language used in our church services / gatherings to be contemporary language; questions and contributions from all people to be allowed (rather than it essentially being a performance led by a small number of people from the pulpit / stage / altar); contemporary cultural media to be used (e.g. songs that sound contemporary); real questions of life to be addressed, instead of abstract, theoretical sermons that don't explain what faith in Christ actually means in the context of modern-day living.
Yeah, nobody ever thought of that before... ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
So what does the one trick pony do when its one trick doesn't attract an audience any longer?
Has your church made any converts in the last decade or two? No, I'm neither talking about cultural Christians who think they need marriage and/or baptism from you, nor about the sheep you regularly steal from other churches. Real converts. If you have any, then just maybe it would be a good idea to ask them why they converted and what attracted them to your church specifically.
I know, it is a radical idea that stands against millennia of tradition, but it's worth a shot...
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
What SCK suggests may work well in some places with some demographics- probably with people who, er, look rather like SCK. But it would be interesting to know something about the people who are makig up the growing congregations in cathedrals, where worship is (with the likely exception of the sermons) pretty much the opposite of everything that SCK advocates. Are they people who have moved from other places of worship because they prefer the cathedral way of doing things, or is there a noticeable proportion of previously unchurched people attracted by something that is not to be found verty much elsewhere in modern life? I don't know.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
I wasn't deriding 'mums and toddler groups and all the rest of it' ... whatever gave you that idea?
I may have typed it rather flippantly, but what I meant was that the apparently radical, 'let's be all relevant' church plant was arguably no better at making disciples than the more broadly based parent church with its traditional outreach and community activities such as mums and tots etc ...
Meanwhile, I think I will start a new thread on this one ...
SCK's post begs all sorts of questions - 'contemporary music' - contemporary to whom?
'Relevant' - again, to whom?
And on it goes ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stejjie:
I'm not sure this gets the relationship between church and disciple-making the right way round: correct me if I'm wrong, but it sees disciple-making as the thing and church as a place, or a resource (albeit an important one) that helps that process to happen. Would that be fair - apologies if not!!
Yes, you've been fair to my view here, Stejjie. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) It derives from Jesus' command for us to make disciples, and his statement that he will build his church. The idea being that church will more or less naturally (or supernaturally...) arise once you have a group of disciples. Followers of Jesus will inevitably want to gather with other Jesus-followers in order to encourage and equip one another, to challenge one another to greater Christlikeness, to share God's presence with one another.
As an aside, I'd absolutely reject any suggestion that we gather to 'worship God'. IMO that's a fundamental misunderstanding of what it means to worship God - I'd say we worship God by living as he would intend, i.e. our entire lives can and should be acts of worship. It's not something we gather together in order to do. Potential thread divert ahoy...
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Has your church made any converts in the last decade or two? No, I'm neither talking about cultural Christians who think they need marriage and/or baptism from you, nor about the sheep you regularly steal from other churches. Real converts. If you have any, then just maybe it would be a good idea to ask them why they converted and what attracted them to your church specifically.
Plenty of genuine converts, thank you. And my recollection of their stated reasons for converting and becoming part of our church is that they saw genuine love in our community and became convinced that God was among us. Praise the Lord
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
In a nutshell, and with the greatest respect to South Coast Kevin, I tend to think that:
'Contemporary music' is shorthand for, 'the kind of music I like'.
'Relevant' means 'stuff I like and which appeals to me. I have no idea what appeals to anyone else.'
Everything SCK has ever posted on this subject makes me think that he envisages church as something that should appeal to his own particular demographic - ie. 20 or 30-something studenty types (which I assume SCK to be).
The SCK church is a 'people like us' church.
It's filled with people like SCK and his chums.
That might be unfair, but that's how it comes across to me and I can't see how SCK and his pals come create anything that didn't look otherwise ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Which isn't to say that genuine conversions don't take place - I'm sure they do - because there will be a great sense of love and community in SCK's church - I have no doubt of that.
But not everyone wants that level of intensity and closeness of community.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Posted by SCK:
quote:
Plenty of genuine converts, thank you. And my recollection of their stated reasons for converting and becoming part of our church is that they saw genuine love in our community and became convinced that God was among us. Praise the Lord [Smile]
Wonderful. And what got them in touch with your community? That, for me, is the key question. I strongly suspect that a tangible love and presence of God are more to do with how you do things than with what, specifically, you do.
BTW I don't think there is anything at all wrong with aiming your mission at people who are like you and who you understand. Mission has to be culturally attuned, as for example Gregory understood when he told Augustine to build, as far as possible, on the Saxon traditions that he encountered. But you absolutely must not assume that what works with eager young educated people on the South Coast is necessarily what will work in a Valleys postindustrial village or a peripheral council estate in Outer London or an inner suburb of Wolverhampton or an affluent commuter suburb in the M4 corridor or in the Hebrides. We have to find ways of being church and doing mission where we are. If everyone were just to pick up SCK's model (or anybody else's) we'd be like Victorian missionaries trying (if any ever did) to transplant the ways of Barchester to Burma.
[ 13. September 2014, 10:31: Message edited by: Albertus ]
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
And what got them in touch with your community?
For most of the recent new Christians in our church, it's the debt advice centre we run. And while Gamaliel's guesses as to my culture and that of my church are pretty much on the money, most of the new converts are definitely not '20s-30s student types'. Yet many of them seem to be finding a place in our community.
My take on it is that the 'culture' of a church (in terms of the things like music and language) should reflect, in combination, the people already in the church and the people that church is hoping to have an impact on. If there's a significant mismatch between those two groups, then there'll need to be a cultural adjustment as and when more of the latter group get involved in the church.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
[QUOTE]
My take on it is that the 'culture' of a church (in terms of the things like music and language) should reflect, in combination, the people already in the church and the people that church is hoping to have an impact on. If there's a significant mismatch between those two groups, then there'll need to be a cultural adjustment as and when more of the latter group get involved in the church.
I can see what you're getting at that but would suggest that this is only practically possible under certain circumstances.
Unless you've got some kind of mono-cultural community then no one musical style is going to suit everyone, for instance ... hence the 'music wars' that go on in so many churches ...
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
We've all heard the horror stories about those ... choirs and organists edged out by trendy vicars with guitars or even Hillsongs CDs sung along to karaoke style ...
Of course, these things cut both ways, but if I look at our local parish church I can't think of a single 'style' of music that is going to suit absolutely everybody there ... such a thing is impossible. So there are effectively two congregations in one church ... a 9am one which goes in for traditional hymns accompanied by the organ and an 11am one which has so-called 'contemporary' music ... all the worship songs and choruses and so on.
This isn't a problem, I don't suppose, if the 9am and 11am crowds reach out to their peer groups ...
As for what people outside the church will listen to ... well, that's going to range pretty widely isn't it? Not everyone likes pop music, not everyone likes classical music, not everyone likes Radio 2 or Radio 3 or ...
In the case of South Coast Kevin's church I suspect that the growth from among those involved with the debt counselling service doesn't ultimately have a great deal to do with the style of music or service ... but more to do with the fact that people have shown a genuine interest in them and they've found a sense of community ... which is increasingly important in our increasingly atomised society.
We've got a number of people on the periphery of church or becoming actively involved with church who have come in from a very good Job Club that someone has organised over the last few years - with professional input from careers advisors etc.
Whilst I applaud this initiative and the vegetable allotment that has sprung out of it - offering the long term unemployed an opportunity to do something constructive and learn new skills - part of me wonders and worries about how evangelical churches often end up targeting very vulnerable people.
I'm not saying that's happening in SCK's church, but people who are availing themselves of debt counselling services clearly recognise that they've got a problem - 'I'm in debt, get me outta here ...'
So, in a sense, these people are going to be more susceptible to a bunch of nice friendly 20-30 something studenty types showing them love and concern and introducing them to church life ...
It'd be a lot harder, I submit, to engage the professional couple round the corner who are doing very well thank you very much ... or the keen cyclist who is pedalling around or fiddling with his bike every waking moment he's not in work ... or the ...
You get my drift. The model SCK describes is going to work in some places and not others - as Albertus suggests.
Now, I recognise that SCK recognises the same ... but I do wonder what strategies are available to us if we don't find ourselves in a university town or somewhere with a lot of 20 somethings. Hereabouts, most 20 somethings disappear after they've been to university or college. There are a lot of retired people and people with young kids - but the 30 - 50 bracket is probably under-represented.
There's some good stuff going on with da yout' through the local parish church and some quite creative stuff going on at the opposite end of the spectrum with the elderly ... but for those who commute to Manchester every day or who leave the town around 8am and don't reappear until 7-ish ... what is there for them and how can the churches engage there?
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
...part of me wonders and worries about how evangelical churches often end up targeting very vulnerable people.
You mean, like how Jesus focused on the people who were marginalised in his cultural context? I don't see this as a problem, to be honest!
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
It'd be a lot harder, I submit, to engage the professional couple round the corner who are doing very well thank you very much ... but for those who commute to Manchester every day or who leave the town around 8am and don't reappear until 7-ish ... what is there for them and how can the churches engage there?
Other professional couples who are Christians, and can show how professional careers can be led for the glory of God; workplace churches or city centre chaplains, things like that.
This is what I was getting at when I said upthread about being flexible regarding how we 'do church'. If we think of church as not tied to religious / consecrated buildings, then we can start to conceive of churches based in workplaces, or pubs, or social clubs etc.
So for the commuter who basically only eats and sleeps in their home town / village, their church family could be a group of Christians in their workplace or in other workplaces near their own. Let church happen where the people already are, instead of trying to draw people in to where we are already doing church.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Hmmm ...
Be careful ... there is a difference between providing services and help for vulnerable and marginalised people and deliberately targeting them because they are easier to manipulate.
It's the latter I'm worried about ... and I'd suggest that there are groups around - such as the Jesus Army - who do that ... which isn't to write-off everything the Jesus Army does but you can catch my drift on this one, I think ...
Overall, I can see what you're getting at and am not unsympathetic.
However, is something like a work-place chaplaincy 'church' or a supplement or substitute for church? Is a college Christian Union a church?
Ok, it all depends on how we define church, of course.
I think flexibility is where we're all headed by sheer force of circumstances and the decline in traditional church-going patterns and attendance.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
SCK, I would be interested to know what you make of cathedral worship growing given that it flies in the face of most of your ideas. It's not a criticism of your ideas (most of them, I think, are at least coming from the right place and are well-intentioned) but it does rather show that they can't be universally applied.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
posted by quote:
I may have typed it rather flippantly, but what I meant was that the apparently radical, 'let's be all relevant' church plant was arguably no better at making disciples than the more broadly based parent church with its traditional outreach and community activities such as mums and tots etc ...
I realised you were using the example of mum and toddler groups as shorthand.
What I'm saying is that churches should stop 'trying to make converts': we must stop it now, for the simple reason that we cannot 'make converts', all we as churches (by which I mean communities of people who meet for worship, not necessarily denominations) can do is throw open our doors - metaphorically and literally - and do as we were invited to by Jesus. - feed the hungry - I mean the with food, not sermons
- defend the fatherless and widows - practical help with DIY, free babysitting service, etc
- give alms to the poor - and practical help like credit unions, help with clothing, furniture for those who have been homeless
Part of the problem is that many church people have few, if any, friends among the vast majority of people who comes from generations of the, effectively 'unchurched' and so we have little if any idea of how we are perceived. Many of our clergy, particularly at senior level, have had little exposure to people for who the church isn't right or wrong but simply irrelevant.
The church - denominations, hierarchies and people - is remarkably lacking in self-awareness: worse, we mistake our self-obsession and self-absorbtion with self-knowledge.
We fail utterly to comprehend the damage that the interminable spats over doctrine - especially to do with those areas where the un-churched may come into direct contact with our organisations - has done and we persist in demanding that the society of which we are a part makes allowances for us.
Even worse, we have leaders who demand the right to lash out at our society for what they perceive to be its faults while failing utterly to listen to the people who aren't in our pews.
I had a partner who was, effectively, un-churched and my step-children have never attended church: their views on what they see as 'church' are fascinating and the list of things that they don't like about us or our services are interesting.
Since joining the ship I've been listening to these unchurched adults - ages 39, 40 and 43 - and it has been illuminating.
SCK - you talk about archaic language and non-contemporary music: On their rare forays into a church (weddings, funerals, the odd baptism) this doesn't bother them at all. In fact, when at a wedding that one went to recently the cleric told his congregation proudly that the service had been made more 'understandable' they were outraged; as he said, the impression came over loud and clear that people who don't go to church are thick so need a dumbed-down service.
Similarly the traditional music doesn't bother them - but they are puzzled that we have so few songs because at most of the services they attend they get the same things over and over again: The Lord of the Dance, Sing Hosanna, Bind us together, The servant song, Majesty. Their relief when none of these figured at my other half's funeral was palpable.
They talk about how every time they go to church there is talk about money - how much it costs to keep the building they are in running, or direct requests for this or that special collection. As they said, we don't mind giving, but don't lecture us.
As for doctrinal arguments - women, gayness, SSM - they view this as being about as relevant as the Thirty Years War or the dispute between India and Pakistan about Kashmir. The only people under 30 that I've met who are remotely interested are from Northern Ireland - and they said one reason for staying here after graduation was to get away from the incessant religion-dominated culture at home which, they said, made NI feel like a place living in a time-warp.
What they like about our services, when they come, are that regular churchgoers are there to make them welcome, hand out service books, chat to afterwards (if its a regular liturgy). What they don't like is being made to look or feel a fool: specifically in this regard was quoted 'the bit where people come up and touch you' and 'going to the front and then not knowing what to do' - so that's the Peace and Communion.
Services where they feel most welcome are things like Harvest, Christmas services with an emphasis on children, traditional carol services, Remembrance Sunday.
They are suspicious if people from a church they have just walked into start 'talking to me on my own about God' and view this as a reason not to go again. But the young mother among the three did value the mother & toddler service at her local church: the children played, there was a short service (not specified but I've sussed out it was a basic few prayers, reading and one hymn around thanksgiving for family life) and that was it; no collection but you could donate towards the cost of tea, squash and biscuits if you felt like it.
Two have been taken along to Alpha suppers and in both cases it has destroyed the friendship with the person who did the inviting: they felt pressurised and also that they had been judged as being not the sort of person the original friend wanted to know without some sort of adjustment that Alpha would perform.
So there you have it: a small snapshot but illuminating in its little way.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I find that very illuminating, L'Organist, thanks.
I've not done any similar straw-polls but it accords with what I would imagine to be the case.
Something I've often wondered about is this idea that church meetings/services are somehow evangelistic ... or that entering a church building some how has some kind of 'threshold' effect.
The more liberal parish here often uses its building for concerts and other events. After one of these, I asked someone from the evangelical parish what they'd thought of it. I was expecting him to comment on the music and the performance bu t instead he said, 'It was good to see so many people inside a church building ...'
As if this had some kind of significance in and of itself ...
Even the Orthodox seem to go in for this kind of approach. If you ask them about Orthodoxy they'll say, 'Come and see' and expect you to 'get it' or pick things up by osmosis by attending the Liturgy ...
I can see where all of this is coming from but tend to think that the real action in evangelistic terms - in the broadest sense - comes from the kind of activities you've outlined ... and that we should be engaged in these irrespective of whether they lead to people coming to our church.
If they 'see our good deeds and glorify our father in heaven' then gradual involvement in the life of the church - belonging then believing perhaps? - might follow ... but this shouldn't be the prime intention in a cheesy kind of way.
Your comments on Alpha resonate with me ... these things can spoil otherwise fruitful friendships ... friendships for the sake of friendships not those with ulterior motives.
There are, of course, no easy answers to any of this ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Also churches that use 'contemporary' language can use just as much jargon as those using 'archaic' language. 'Hedge of protection' and 'fleece prayer' and 'God gave him a heart for ___' are just as jargony and incomprehensible to outsiders as talking about dalmatics and thuribles and maniples. I'd bet anything that your average MOTR Anglican church is much easier for the average outsider to understand than a Vineyard place. Evangelicals definitely have their own language - just look at things like 'Stuff Christian Culture Likes' for examples.
Edited to add that L'Organist is totally right and the churches I've seen that have got evangelism right (and not used it to manipulate) have gone down that road. Just be Christ to people, don't fart about with 'seeker friendly' crap like coffee bars and nice lighting.
[ 13. September 2014, 18:11: Message edited by: Jade Constable ]
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Yes, I find that amusing as well.
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St. Gwladys
Shipmate
# 14504
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Posted
We are using our church hall as a bridge into the community. We have mother and toddler groups, excercise and diet classes, we have started CAP (Christians against Poverty, a debt handling charity), a pensioner's luncheon club, we are looking to start a craft club, we hold concerts...We have posters about what is happening in church in the foyer and on the doors, as a result of which, a young lad asked his mother if he could come to church to learn about the Bible. Our vicar's view is that the people we can ask in to special events are the people on the periphery of the church - and if there is no periphery....?
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"Careful what you say sir, we're on board ship here"
From "New York Girls", Steeleye Span, Commoners Crown (Voiced by Peter Sellers)
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Wise words from Jade, Gamaliel and l'organist here. And good luck to St Gwladys too.
BTW, Jade, WTF is 'fleece prayer'? When I occasionally used to attend evening service at Hinde St Methodist 15 years ago the University of London MethSoc (who were even then about 10 years younger than I was) used to turn out in force and they were all wearing fleeces. Is it anything to do with that? Or is it 'close your eyes and pray while we fleece you?'
[ 13. September 2014, 20:28: Message edited by: Albertus ]
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
The Ch-in-W's varieties do not slot into the easy C/E descriptions ; truly the Ch-in-W is like no other.
That said, once any specific church has decided that Something Has To Change...ISTM that individual churches take it upon themselves to decide what might (for want of a better word) 'work' in their specific parish.
Certainly some churches in Wales have taken steps to halt the apparent decline in their parish. But tackling this does require a clear head combined lots of good old fashioned pastoral care: talk of change brings lots of people out in a rash of bad temper.
[ 13. September 2014, 20:29: Message edited by: Ethne Alba ]
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Wise words from Jade, Gamaliel and l'organist here. And good luck to St Gwladys too.
BTW, Jade, WTF is 'fleece prayer'? When I occasionally used to attend evening service at Hinde St Methodist 15 years ago the University of London MethSoc (who were even then about 10 years younger than I was) used to turn out in force and they were all wearing fleeces. Is it anything to do with that? Or is it 'close your eyes and pray while we fleece you?'
A 'fleece prayer' is a prayer asking for a sign from God as to whether you should proceed from something, it's from the story of Gideon where God makes a fleece appear as a sign. I'd never heard of it before my best friend (raised in a charismatic evo church) mentioned it.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Conservative evangelicals use the term 'fleece prayer' too - but generally to warn against the practice ...
Meanwhile, St Gwladys's church appear to be doing the right kind of things ...
I don't think we can entirely stem the tide of secularism and indifference, but working to develop a periphery and working with that seems to be the most sensible strategy ...
I do think there are lots of things that churches can do collectively that 'add value' to their communities and supplement the work of other agencies. I know of a town not too far from here where the annual arts festival was struggling until the churches got behind them - offering venues, lending man and woman power and using their communications networks to promote events.
The town centre manager there says that this was the catalyst that galvinised the whole thing ... not only did it raise awareness of the festival but it also meant that the churches had to engage with some quite challenging artistic material - which they did, as it happened.
The knock-on effect was greater support and success for the arts festival and increasing collaboration between the churches in terms of debt-counselling and other initiatives.
I agree with South Coast Kevin that there is room and scope for creative and entrepreneurial initiatives - work-place chaplaincies and fellowship groups etc, social outreach projects ...
I don't see any of these things as necessarily the province of any one type of 'churchmanship' or style.
Meanwhile, on the language/jargon thing ... I hear from someone who sings in the choir at the more liberal parish here - which tends to be used for weddings more than the evangelical one does as it's a nicer building with a more central location - that fewer and fewer people know the words of the hymns these days.
I don't know what the answer to that is ... certainly not gooey Jesus is my boyfriend choruses ... those presuppose that Jesus is your boyfriend in the first place ...
I'd agree that charismatic evangelical churches are far more jargon-prone than MoR ones. We used to have an assistant pastor we called 'The Jargon King'. He was a lovely bloke but his entire public pronouncements consisted of a succession of charismatic evangelical cliches and in-house jargon ... and as a restorationist church with a particular 'take' on things there was a heck of a lot of that ...
![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
The thing is, though, any specialist interest group has its own jargon - that applies to the local cricket club and the brownies as much as to churches. You wouldn't get very far in a model railway club without knowing some of the terminology.
A certain amount of jargon is inevitable. The problems start when it it replaces thinking and robust engagement with whatever the issues happen to be ...
Jargon so easily spills over into pious platitudes.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Plenty of genuine converts, thank you. And my recollection of their stated reasons for converting and becoming part of our church is that they saw genuine love in our community and became convinced that God was among us. Praise the Lord
That's sounds nice but lacks all specific and concrete content and hence is close to meaningless for guiding churches - yours or others - to attract more converts. What were the actual expressions of love in your community that they found impressive and apparently not bogus? What things that you were doing convinced them that God was among you? How did they ever get around to taking a closer look at all this in the first place? Etc.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
I wouldn't be quite so spikey, IngoB.
When I were a lad I was involved in churches rather like SCK's and wouldn't underestimate the close sense of community and belonging that they generate - almost to the point of claustrophobia if they are not careful ...
As for the 'God is really among us' bit ... again, that can easily be inferred if one is involved with groups like this ... lively worship and a warmth and closeness of fellowship can be taken as signs and tokens of God's presence in a particular way.
I'm not saying they aren't, but that's how it's perceived when you're working in that kind of paradigm. Consequently, more 'cold' and formal church atmospheres can be seen as being bereft of the presence of God in such a tangible way.
I'm not laying that at South Coast Kevin's charge - he is genuinely eirenic and wouldn't doubt the possibility of God being present and active in settings that some charismatic evangelicals would consider to be 'dead'.
Put yourself in the shoes of one the new converts who has come in via the debt-counselling route. You've met these nice, lively, bubbly and friendly people, they've given you practical help and support in dealing with your debt issues, they offer warm and caring fellowship and lively singalong style services ...
If you're coming at it from that angle, what's not to like?
I certainly wouldn't disparage their experience nor begrudge them what they've found - presumably a sense of acceptance, encouragement and a group of people who have their best interests at heart.
I'm not saying that they couldn't find some or all of this elsewhere but the fact is, South Coast Kevin's church has taken the initiative and got to them first.
You might not like or approve of everything that might go on in SCK's Vineyard church - and I'm pretty sure I wouldn't either - it'd be far too pietistic for my liking - but has the RC parish or the local Anglican parish or the local Methoidst church offered these people anything?
There's a question to be answered there.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
The thing is, though, any specialist interest group has its own jargon ... You wouldn't get very far in a model railway club without knowing some of the terminology.
Are you deliberately throwing temptation in my path ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif) ? On trains, I can bore for Britain!
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I wouldn't be quite so spikey, IngoB.
I wasn't "spikey" in the slightest.
Not one of my posts on this thread had anything to do with steering people to the kind of Christianity that I prefer.
All my posts have had to do with the necessity for an attitude shift in the "sales strategy" that is being deployed - whatever it may be that you are "selling" as Christianity.
That I would likely run away screaming if I came close to SCK's kind of church, and vice versa, has nothing to do with this at all. Some people clearly are attracted to either sort of church. If you want more of them, step one is to find out why. And so at a level of concrete detail which allows you to actually work on that.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
What SCK suggests may work well in some places with some demographics- probably with people who, er, look rather like SCK. But it would be interesting to know something about the people who are makig up the growing congregations in cathedrals, where worship is (with the likely exception of the sermons) pretty much the opposite of everything that SCK advocates. Are they people who have moved from other places of worship because they prefer the cathedral way of doing things, or is there a noticeable proportion of previously unchurched people attracted by something that is not to be found verty much elsewhere in modern life? I don't know.
The most obvious problem with 'the cathedral way of doing things' is that only cathedrals can supply that method. Most churches don't have the high quality musical production, the awe-inspiring setting or the manpower and the finances to stay open every day of the week. I'm sure there are some well-endowed Anglican parish churches elsewhere that offer something similar, but I presume it's rare. (And rarer in Wales than in England?)
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Posted
Gamaliel:
quote:
Meanwhile, on the language/jargon thing ... I hear from someone who sings in the choir at the more liberal parish here - which tends to be used for weddings more than the evangelical one does as it's a nicer building with a more central location - that fewer and fewer people know the words of the hymns these days.
I don't know what the answer to that is ... certainly not gooey Jesus is my boyfriend choruses ... those presuppose that Jesus is your boyfriend in the first place ...
I'd guess it's something to do with not having proper school assemblies with proper hymns any more.
BTW Svitlana my point was not that 'the cathedral way of doing things' is the way we should all go, but that the things which SCK identified about his church's worship are not the only way to appeal to people.
[ 14. September 2014, 13:53: Message edited by: Albertus ]
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I wasn't necessarily thinking of 'spikey' in the ecclesiastical sense, IngoB - although I was including that.
I meant more 'dismissive' and somewhat abrasive ...
But I take your points. We'd need to examine the whole thing in the round, as it were, to get a real impression of how these various models work.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
SCK, I would be interested to know what you make of cathedral worship growing given that it flies in the face of most of your ideas. It's not a criticism of your ideas (most of them, I think, are at least coming from the right place and are well-intentioned) but it does rather show that they can't be universally applied.
Yeah, the growth in people attending cathedral services is a tricky one for me to process. On the one hand, I'm tempted to be dismissive and write it off as casual dabbling or Christian tourism, but I don't think that would be fair. Cathedrals are obviously providing something that some people (a) want, and (b) seem to be benefiting from.
I guess my main problem with cathedral services is in that word 'providing'; I fundamentally see church as a community of people gathered around Jesus (sorry for the jargon - used for brevity - I'll explain if anyone wants) rather than as a provider of services (deliberate double meaning there). But, hey, they seem to be doing good...
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Also churches that use 'contemporary' language can use just as much jargon as those using 'archaic' language. 'Hedge of protection' and 'fleece prayer' and 'God gave him a heart for ___' are just as jargony and incomprehensible to outsiders as talking about dalmatics and thuribles and maniples.
Oh yes, and I'm thoroughly against both aspects of jargon! In my initial posted which kicked this strand off, I didn't mean to imply traditional-style church services are more jargon-infested than contemporary-style.
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Plenty of genuine converts, thank you. And my recollection of their stated reasons for converting and becoming part of our church is that they saw genuine love in our community and became convinced that God was among us. Praise the Lord
That's sounds nice but lacks all specific and concrete content and hence is close to meaningless for guiding churches - yours or others - to attract more converts. What were the actual expressions of love in your community that they found impressive and apparently not bogus? What things that you were doing convinced them that God was among you? How did they ever get around to taking a closer look at all this in the first place? Etc.
In reverse order...
The people who've got involved in our church (and other churches nearby too) have mainly come through our debt advice work (Christians Against Poverty, as mentioned upthread), which is explicitly Christian-based. That's how they've been 'introduced to Jesus', if you like.
From what I've picked up, they have come to believe that God is among us by the love they've seen in our community (which they haven't seen or experienced elsewhere), with that love shown through things like:
- Food rotas for people with newborns or loved ones in hospital
- Child-minding being shared between families, often at short notice
- Sharing of things like cars, lawnmowers, drills
- Deep relationships, such that people see genuine care and compassion
Jesus said people will know we belong to him by the love we have for one another. I think if we focused on loving one another - in such ways as I've suggested above, and all sorts of other ways too - and invited non-Christians to be part of our communities (which means far, far more than inviting them to our church services) then we'd see beautiful things happening for God's glory.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
SCK - I would say that cathedrals are communities gathered around Jesus! It's just that Jesus in this case is understood in a more sacramental way. For me personally, my attraction to cathedral worship is a deeper thing connected to the holiness of the place where so many prayers have been said, and just something I can't explain. However, a big attraction is that clergy talk to me without having a mental list of committees they can rope me into joining! Your church sounds like a lovely friendly place to be, but I know I for one would find it a bit claustrophobic. I think cathedral worship gives people space to breathe.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
BTW Svitlana my point was not that 'the cathedral way of doing things' is the way we should all go, but that the things which SCK identified about his church's worship are not the only way to appeal to people.
My view is that in a postmodern age we need more diversity among churches rather than less, and cathedral worship is a good thing as part of that. But from a pragmatic perspective, in many ways SCK's form of church would seem to be a lot more portable and adaptable than the cathedral model.
OTOH, I find it hard to imagine where the deep passion for Christ and the commitment to service and incarnational living is going to come from in the British Church in order to fulfill the vision that SCK has. Where is it in the CinW, or indeed anywhere else? The challenges of evangelism in many places seem overwhelming, and the risk of burnout is high. Many Christians of whatever type, ISTM, simply don't have the energy and confidence for a revolution like this.
Attitudes might be different in the next few decades, when the evangelical churches can feel themselves ageing, and the rest are burying their elderly stalwarts with barely a handful of people to replace them in many congregations. Organised Christianity might become a regional thing in the UK.
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
SCK - I would say that cathedrals are communities gathered around Jesus! It's just that Jesus in this case is understood in a more sacramental way. For me personally, my attraction to cathedral worship is a deeper thing connected to the holiness of the place where so many prayers have been said, and just something I can't explain. However, a big attraction is that clergy talk to me without having a mental list of committees they can rope me into joining! Your church sounds like a lovely friendly place to be, but I know I for one would find it a bit claustrophobic. I think cathedral worship gives people space to breathe.
Sorry, I was trying to stop my post becoming a sprawling essay and ended up being unfair to cathedral-based churches. My problem is with people who treat cathedral services as a product, not with those who are seeking and developing Christian community which happens to have a cathedral as its home.
And you're right, I'm sure that for plenty of people that experience of being (or even just feeling) roped in to join various rotas and committees is unwelcome and claustrophobic.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
A lot of this stuff comes down to what stage we are in life. When I was a single guy I valued the kind of close church community that SCK describes.
Now, as a grumpy middle-aged git, I would find it incredibly claustrophobic and cloying. 'Give me air, give me air ...!'
That are different ways to achieve community.
People want to express that in different ways.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
posted by Svitlana2 quote:
The most obvious problem with 'the cathedral way of doing things' is that only cathedrals can supply that method. Most churches don't have the high quality musical production, the awe-inspiring setting or the manpower and the finances to stay open every day of the week. I'm sure there are some well-endowed Anglican parish churches elsewhere that offer something similar, but I presume it's rare. (And rarer in Wales than in England?)
I agree, not everyone can turn themselves into a soaring gothic pile with professional standard choir of men and boys and FRCO organist.
But I am puzzled by your second point about the finances to stay open every day of the week.
Unless you have priceless treasures or are in an incredibly high crime area it should be possible for most churches to be open daily. In fact I'd say that should be the aim.
We are a small village of 1200 souls, the housing is not all concentrated around a central point, and the church itself is down a quiet lane, hidden in the middle of trees. But it is open every day between 8am and 4pm minimum (winter) and closing at 6.30pm once it is light (summer).
Our P-in-C says his offices in church on 3 days of the week, for the other days there is a rota of lay people who meet together to say the office - usually the people responsible for locking and unlocking the building.
As well as being open for anyone to wander in, the local school (not a church school) bases some of its lessons around the church - useful for the wildlife (we don't weedkill), example of differing historical periods of building style, plus carol service, leavers service, etc. On top of that every year a class is given a talk about the organ as part of their music curriculum; moreover, it has always been my policy that every child at the school (and the peripatetic teachers through the CC) knows that there is a piano in church which is available for them to use for practice if they need/want to.
We have had the occasional opportunistic theft by keeping the church open, but this has mainly been of hassocks (no, I can't think why either) and one 'gentleman of the road' knows where we keep the coffee and tea and helps himself when he is in the area - but always leaves a note in his dirty mug to say thanks!
Yes, organising the rota of people to lock and unlock took some initial setting up once we lost our own full-time PP but since we always stress that the church isn't ours, it belongs to the village there have always been people to do it. In fact some of the initial people on the rota have since become regular members of the congregation, others have taken on other tasks voluntarily, and the place ticks over on a surface level with no real need for clergy - apart from communion services, of course!
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Darllenwr
Shipmate
# 14520
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Posted
Is our problem that the outside world has concluded that we are good at talking about being Christians, but not so good at doing it?
I am reminded of a story our P-in-C told recently about an encounter in one of the shops in town when he was newly installed in our parish. He introduced himself to the shopkeeper and was met with the response, "Oh, so you're the vicar of that church, are you? Are there any Christians in there?"
That is not exactly the most encouraging thing I have heard lately.
I have wondered whether words have become devalued in an age where there are so many of them. A sizeable chunk of our population spend much of their time as I am now, hunched in front of a computer screen, absorbing words. Many of those words flatly contradict many of the other words. How is one to determine which words to believe and which to dismiss?
I'm thinking that James probably put his finger on it in chapter 2 of his letter, verses 14 to 18. Many of us are good at speaking about our faith (first part of verse 18), but is this enough to convince our listeners to believe what we are saying? 'Tis said that, "actions speak louder than words" and that is possibly never more true than today, when people need to see the substance behind the words. If there is no visible substance, they will conclude that the words were empty - like so many others.
James remarked that, "I will show you my faith by what I do." From what has been said above, it seems to me that the churches that are growing are those where outsiders can see substance to the words - churches that are feeding the hungry, helping the indebted out of their financial woes, caring for the sick, visiting the prisoners - people need to see something tangible to convince them that we believe the things we are saying. If we don't (obviously) believe it, why should they?
It's a fair question.
Don't misunderstand me, there has to be speaking as well - I am a lay preacher, don't forget - but the words spoken have to have substance to back them, or they are just empty and worthless.
And nobody is going to take much notice of what they perceive to be empty words.
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If I've told you once, I've told you a million times: I do not exaggerate!
Posts: 1101 | From: The catbox | Registered: Jan 2009
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
I agree, not everyone can turn themselves into a soaring gothic pile with professional standard choir of men and boys and FRCO organist.
But I am puzzled by your second point about the finances to stay open every day of the week.
Unless you have priceless treasures or are in an incredibly high crime area it should be possible for most churches to be open daily. In fact I'd say that should be the aim.
I can't speak for the big Anglican churches, to be honest, but as a former Methodist church steward I'd say that the church I used to worship in would have needed to be heated, and would also have required lots of lighting. The extra wear and tear would have taken its toll too. IOW, yes, it would have required considerable extra expenditure to keep the building open all week.
In terms of manpower, we need to be aware that churches each have a particular demographic, and many congregations lean towards the elderly - and not always fit early retirees. If there are younger members many will have to be out at work. Some will be unemployed, but may live at a considerable distance. In any case, not everyone will feel confident enough to represent their church to the whole community without considerable support and training, which will be necessary because crime isn't the only challenge - people often drop into urban churches bringing considerable problems with them, and random church members shouldn't be expected to deal with these issues on their own. On the plus side, I know lots of churches that are trying to address local needs, but there's less state funding to help with this work than there used to be.
You should count yourself lucky that yours is an area that people have chosen to move to or stay in because it's pleasant and because the sense of community is strong. They obviously see church life as part of that, even if they don't go every week. It's probably quite a homogeneous place as well, which helps in some respects. There must be plenty of churches like yours, but I also understand that many rural churches are struggling.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
SCK - I would say that cathedrals are communities gathered around Jesus! It's just that Jesus in this case is understood in a more sacramental way. For me personally, my attraction to cathedral worship is a deeper thing connected to the holiness of the place where so many prayers have been said, and just something I can't explain. However, a big attraction is that clergy talk to me without having a mental list of committees they can rope me into joining! Your church sounds like a lovely friendly place to be, but I know I for one would find it a bit claustrophobic. I think cathedral worship gives people space to breathe.
Sorry, I was trying to stop my post becoming a sprawling essay and ended up being unfair to cathedral-based churches. My problem is with people who treat cathedral services as a product, not with those who are seeking and developing Christian community which happens to have a cathedral as its home.
And you're right, I'm sure that for plenty of people that experience of being (or even just feeling) roped in to join various rotas and committees is unwelcome and claustrophobic.
The problem is that people have been harmed by communities that get too close - it's not surprising that those people and other unchurched people may feel more comfortable being more anonymous in a cathedral.
And I was referring to a church like yours when I was talking about claustrophobia - I'm sure it's very friendly and welcoming, but I would probably find it too friendly and would be uncomfortable with that. That's just how I am as a person.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
... I find it hard to imagine where the deep passion for Christ and the commitment to service and incarnational living is going to come from in the British Church in order to fulfill the vision that SCK has. Where is it in the CinW, or indeed anywhere else? ...
Among our monks and nuns, I would hope. But is it? I don't know. But a growth in explcitly missionary orders of religious would be a wonderful thing.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Albertus
There are (or were) a few religious orders not far from where I live. But I hear next to nothing about what they're doing nowadays.
Aren't most monks and nuns in the UK fairly elderly? I really can't see how this work can be left to them now. Of course, the denominations that are currently growing are not those that provide for religious orders. Could they be encouraged to do so?? Some (mainly evangelical) Protestants will say that this work needs to be the duty of every Christian, but as I say, I can't see how this could be achieved under present circumstances.
Perhaps we need to invite more immigrant monks and nuns to come over! Some African pastors in the UK have already referred to theirs as a sort of reverse missionary venture, but so far success with the indigenous population has mostly eluded them.
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
I do realise, Svitlana, that this is a long way from where we are now. But if I were planning an ideal strategy for the re-evangelisation of England and Wales, an expansion of the religious orders, some to preach and some to pray, would be an important part of what I would want to see.
[ 14. September 2014, 20:23: Message edited by: Albertus ]
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Albertus
There are (or were) a few religious orders not far from where I live. But I hear next to nothing about what they're doing nowadays.
Aren't most monks and nuns in the UK fairly elderly? I really can't see how this work can be left to them now. Of course, the denominations that are currently growing are not those that provide for religious orders. Could they be encouraged to do so?? Some (mainly evangelical) Protestants will say that this work needs to be the duty of every Christian, but as I say, I can't see how this could be achieved under present circumstances.
Perhaps we need to invite more immigrant monks and nuns to come over! Some African pastors in the UK have already referred to theirs as a sort of reverse missionary venture, but so far success with the indigenous population has mostly eluded them.
The CoE (and RCC) needs to get much better at promoting its religious communities. You're in the Midlands, right? There are several communities near you, including the Community of St John the Divine who were the basis for Call The Midwife.
Edited to add that I know of several novices who are middle-aged or younger. There are many elderly monastics but it's far from the whole picture.
[ 14. September 2014, 20:52: Message edited by: Jade Constable ]
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
I do realise, Svitlana, that this is a long way from where we are now. But if I were planning an ideal strategy for the re-evangelisation of England and Wales, an expansion of the religious orders, some to preach and some to pray, would be an important part of what I would want to see.
Hmm, I'd say this would be sending precisely the wrong message - that spreading the gospel is something for the specialists to do, rather than a task that all Christians are supposed to get involved in.
Or maybe I'm misunderstanding what you have in mind, Albertus. How do you think a resurgence of the religious orders would help in re-evangelising England and Wales?
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Well, I'd hope the value of the praying orders doesn't need explaining. As for the preaching orders- trained preachers and communicators, dedicated to the cause, imaginative and mobile or rooted as need would be, not only preaching to the unchurched but invigorating and inspiring and facilitating local Christians to do their bit- what more justification would you want? I mean, presumably your church, SCK, recognises different gifts in different people, and the value that is created when they work together?
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Svitlana2
Yes we are rural but the sense of community which we are constantly having to work on because of the number of holiday/ weekend homes.
Running costs - well, wear-and-tear is relative when the building is more than 800 years old.
As for heating, it is only heated at the weekends - and then not generously.
In fact there is a burning issue here for anyone who chooses to take up the baton: that of the cost for churches of heating ancient buildings when the heritage lobby won't allow us to insulate. One arm of government is urging us to conserve fuel - and as Christians we should in any case try to use resources wisely - while another is actively preventing us from stopping heat loss or getting the most from the significant sums we are having to spend just to keep the congregation from freezing up completely on a winter Sunday.
Where the piano is kept there is a small electric heater which can be used if people are playing. For choir rehearsals people wear coats and we stand so people can generate some heat by moving, rather than just sitting.
The organ loft is entirely unheated and I can tell you that while physics may say that heat rises, this musician can tell you that in a large building it isn't borne out IME! For me to practise I have to wear thermals, several layers and fingerless mittens.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Svitlana2
Yes we are rural but the sense of community which we are constantly having to work on because of the number of holiday/ weekend homes.
Running costs - well, wear-and-tear is relative when the building is more than 800 years old.
As for heating, it is only heated at the weekends - and then not generously.
In fact there is a burning issue here for anyone who chooses to take up the baton: that of the cost for churches of heating ancient buildings when the heritage lobby won't allow us to insulate. One arm of government is urging us to conserve fuel - and as Christians we should in any case try to use resources wisely - while another is actively preventing us from stopping heat loss or getting the most from the significant sums we are having to spend just to keep the congregation from freezing up completely on a winter Sunday.
Where the piano is kept there is a small electric heater which can be used if people are playing. For choir rehearsals people wear coats and we stand so people can generate some heat by moving, rather than just sitting.
The organ loft is entirely unheated and I can tell you that while physics may say that heat rises, this musician can tell you that in a large building it isn't borne out IME! For me to practise I have to wear thermals, several layers and fingerless mittens.
See also the heritage lobby preventing churches from making buildings disabled accessible or even putting in toilets!
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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L'organist
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# 17338
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Posted
Spot on Jade.
We've been trying to get loos in church for nearly 15 years.
We finally got the DAC on board but are now wedged against the brick wall of the local authority conservation and heritage officer.
This man - not an architect, archaeologist, historian or even conservation studies graduate - has managed to put the brakes on our project to have loos, small meeting room and a kitchenette in an annexe.
First, he has queried why we can't have a photocopier in the vestry - which measures 12 x 8 feet, holds all vestments plus the safe, boiler, altar frontals, etc, etc, etc. When even he could see this was a non-starter he said use the room at the base of the tower: so photocopier plus flower arranging stuff, extra chairs, choir music, bell ropes, step ladder, electrical cupboard plus access to the tower - all he thinks can be accommodated in a space measuring 8 x 7 feet.
The building - if we get planning permission - is to be half the size that we wanted: in fact its debatable whether or not it will be worth building.
We have managed to get disabled access by opening up a 14th century doorway - but that was held up by the glass panel in the middle of the door (30 x 4 inches) having to be double-glazed "to prevent heat loss".
Unfortunately we're grade 1 but there should be common sense applied so the building remains usable in the 21st century.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Pomona
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# 17175
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Posted
Also regarding religious communities - they're just not promoted (horrid word to use really but struggling to think of a better synonym!) enough. There's hardly any information made available to people exploring vocation, and DDOs are usually clueless. The Young Vocations facebook page at least mentions religious communities sometimes! Anglican monastics don't have the same cultural resonance that Catholic ones do within the RCC, so the CoE really has to learn to push them a bit more. I'm hoping that the St Anselm's community in Lambeth Palace will do something (I commented on that thread), but there is a real lack of joined-up thinking - it feels like dioceses just don't expect anyone to be interested, so there's no information, so nobody can find communities to possibly be interested in. That's quite obviously not going to help communities to thrive!
While cathedral worship is obviously not that flexible in terms of location and buildings etc, religious communities are really very flexible in that regard and could be a very exciting and radical thing. I know intentional communities are gaining some ground, but I don't see why Fresh Expressions and similar schemes haven't joined up with religious communities - both traditional and less traditional ones.
SCK, you are very near to the Sisters of Bethany (an Anglican convent) who are in Southsea. Why couldn't your church go on retreat there, for instance?
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Honest Ron Bacardi
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# 38
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Posted
That's weird. We're also a grade 1 14th century building, but had no trouble upgrading our access, nor putting in disabled loos (we built them off the entrance porch). Just shows how these things can vary in different places I guess.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Bob Two-Owls
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# 9680
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Hmm, I'd say this would be sending precisely the wrong message - that spreading the gospel is something for the specialists to do, rather than a task that all Christians are supposed to get involved in.
I think this is at the heart of the decline in Church numbers nationwide. People are not really getting less religious, a few are attracted to the "cutting edge" feel of radical atheism but the majority seem to have the same low key faith they always had.
The problem seems to be that people are less willing to submit to authority, especially if they don't have to. That applies even to pastimes involving committees and a hierarchy - Scouts, sporting clubs, history societies etc. Anything where someone has to be set up as a specialist immediately turns off a large number of other people making up the body of the group. Priesthood doesn't get the automatic respect that it used to outside of the immediate Church community and many people are openly hostile to such positions yet still considering themselves to be Christian. If Christianity has to be done in a corporate Church with a hierarchy of specialists then I can't see much of a future for it as we slide even further into individualism.
Posts: 1262 | Registered: Jul 2005
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Posted
Who's talking about a *hierarchy* of specialists? Not me.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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