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Source: (consider it) Thread: Is Tillich Studied or Considered a Relevant Anymore?
FCB

Hillbilly Thomist
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TIllich was something of a "house theologian" in the Religion Department where I studied as an undergrad. I'm sure he's influenced me in all sorts of ways I'm no longer aware of, though it's been years since I've read him seriously (or taken him all that seriously)--if I want to read a Protestant liberal I go straight to Schleiermacher, who is a truly seminal thinker.

Tillich has virtually no influence in the world of Catholic theology and I don't think he has much influence on Protestant theologians under the age of 65. I suspect he is simply too much a product of his age. It was precisely what made him seem so terribly relevant in the 50s and early 60s--all the existentialist stuff about anxiety and ultimate concern--that makes him seem so terribly dated today. Oddly enough, Barth, who seemed increasingly irrelevant in the 60s, has had a much longer shelf life.

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Agent of the Inquisition since 1982.

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Holy Smoke
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I guess Tillich, like MacQuarrie, provided a means for someone to engage with Christianity, who found it difficult to accept the tenets of orthodox doctrine as literally or historically true. The problem is that such people as were obliged to practice within a Christian framework for social or cultural reasons don't even get as far as the front porch these days, instead exploring other spiritual avenues.

So, very much a product of his time, still worth reading, but only really relevant to a shrinking market of old-fashioned theological liberals. It's just very hard to see his kind of liberal protestantism surviving as a stand-alone entity - it was always parasitic of a far more conservative tradition. But there again, without the element of compulsion, it's hard to see the latter surviving either.

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Cottontail

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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
I'm not conceding what you haven't demonstrated. And I'm not about to agree to broadening the semantic range of "abuse" to the point where it is meaningless as a concept. Do with that as you must.

The word 'concede' was yours. You 'conceded it was harassment', in reference to the incident in Niebuhr's biography. You asked me to demonstrate my claim that Tillich would be regarded as abusive today. I demonstrated it; you conceded that it demonstrated harassment, but not abuse. I am genuinely confused as to why you think harassment is not abuse, and would appreciate a definition of the two terms as you are using them.

If I am reading you correctly, you also seem to be disputing that this groping incident happened more than once. Fair enough: in return, I concede that I have not demonstrated that. One instance may be suggestive, but it does not make a pattern. But perhaps you can concede (having already conceded harassment) that he could be prosecuted for that one instance nowadays.

Although I have not demonstrated repeated instances of groping, I have demonstrated that Tillich "frequently exploited the erotic spell he was able to cast to move his relations with women students in an explicitly sexual direction". Whatever this means in actual terms - and it could mean anything from sexual talk to full intercourse - to my mind, this is an abuse of the professor-student relationship. Therefore it is an abuse of the student, as within the power dynamic that I explained above, consent cannot be given freely. You may wish to put this differently, and I will gladly hear you.

--------------------
"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."

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Dark Knight

Super Zero
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The erotic spell stuff? That sounds like what I imagine one of those Shades of Grey novels contains. No, you haven't demonstrated that.
I'm not a lawyer (thank Christ), so I'm not going to comment on what someone could be prosecuted for. I think harassing a student in the way described in that footnote is immoral.
Happy to concede it was an abuse of power. Abuse does I guess connote to me the sort of thing that one can be criminally prosecuted for, so perhaps breaking my own rule there. But I'm very reluctant to use that word, and I am here.
That really is all I'm going to say about this. I think it's off topic.

--------------------
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You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me
- A B Original: I C U

----
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Dark Knight

Super Zero
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Read:
The OP asked if Tillich is in favour or not today.

I included Tillich in a course I taught between 1994 and 1999 at a UK Pentecostal seminary. I really only discovered Tillich by teaching that course! (It was on 20th century theology.)

Now I refer to Tillich in both liturgy and doctrine classes - his work on symbols is still intellectually stimulating and has practical import for worship - not least maybe Fresh Expressions.

His adage 'Just accept you are accepted' is a good summary of the doctrine of assurance.

I now regret not taking David Pailin's first year module at Manchester (Where I did my undergraduate theology) because I know he included a fair bit of stuff an Tillich (that was in 1978).

I'm currently reading Tillich's systematic theology vol. 2 and finding it insightful and provokes me to thought. I don't agree with everything Tillich wrote but then I don't agree with I write either - that is not the point.

I would welcome a new interest in Tillich's thought - and since I'd self-describe as a charismatic evangelical Anglican, some might find that unexpected!

But the issues raised here arising from his harassing of students, philandering etc. are also important. More on that maybe later...

That's interesting, Charles. I identify as Pentecostal myself, and I find Schleiermacher and Tillich great resources for understanding a theology that centres on experience. There certainly is a renaissance of Schleiermacher studies in religious studies at the moment. Perhaps the same will be the case for Tillich some day.

--------------------
So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me
- A B Original: I C U

----
Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).

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Evensong
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quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
But I'm wary of going too far in separating theology from action.

Aye.

MLK was a philanderer? Tillich was? Barth was?

Dayem. I didn't know that.

I've lost respect for them.

Potentially a logical fallacy of the slippery slope, but still. I'd think fidelity was a fairly basic Christian premise.

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a theological scrapbook

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
But I'm wary of going too far in separating theology from action.

Aye.

MLK was a philanderer? Tillich was? Barth was?

Dayem. I didn't know that.

I've lost respect for them.

You may ruin out of people to respect, then.

Many of the great people who made a mark had feet of clay.

--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by FCB:
I don't think he has much influence on Protestant theologians under the age of 65. I suspect he is simply too much a product of his age.

He was still being taught in universities in, at least, 1975.

His influence lived on for a very long time in the religious education world - at least until the late 1990s.

--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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Evensong
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
But I'm wary of going too far in separating theology from action.

Aye.

MLK was a philanderer? Tillich was? Barth was?

Dayem. I didn't know that.

I've lost respect for them.

You may ruin out of people to respect, then.

Many of the great people who made a mark had feet of clay.

Maybe we've effed up the definition of great then.

Infidelity is not one I'm willing to compromise on.

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a theological scrapbook

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Boogie

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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Maybe we've effed up the definition of great then.

Infidelity is not one I'm willing to compromise on.

This would be worth a thread of its own. We once had a brilliant preacher who was, in everyone's eyes, also a wonderful family man. I knew different when he felt my bum, reaching up my skirt, in the Church kitchen.

I never listened to him again and didn't go to his funeral. My friends wondered why I didn't speak well of him. I didn't speak ill of him either - I just changed the subject.

Of course, these days he'd be another DLT awaiting sentencing.

My point is that it didn't matter how brilliant his words were - his actions told a different story and thus made his words utterly untrustworthy.

I think.

Intellectually that sounds all wrong - but didn't Jesus say something similar?

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Garden. Room. Walk

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Evensong
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By their fruits you shall know them. Beware false prophets.

[ 24. September 2014, 14:05: Message edited by: Evensong ]

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a theological scrapbook

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Dark Knight

Super Zero
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Boogie - I am really sorry to hear that. That's awful.

Evensong: are you actually calling MLK, Paul Tillich and Karl Barth false prophets? Because that makes the dead Germans line above seem erudite and considered. [Disappointed]

--------------------
So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me
- A B Original: I C U

----
Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).

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chris stiles
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On the one hand I can sympathize with those who want to include the lives of the theologian as part of the process that evaluates the theology - especially in cases like that of Yoder for the reasons Cottontail mentions.

OTOH, it may well be that Yoder's ideas are theologically consistent and valid, in spite of him having pushed them partially for venal reasons.

ISTM that whilst there are reasons why theology is different to any other intellectual endeavour, there are also powerful similarities. That plus common grace would explain why someone could be very insightful theologically whilst not living a life that comports with the beliefs that spring from that theology.

In each case we can examine the theologies produced to see if there is anything in them that might lead to the behaviour we find problematic. This is much easier to do in the case of someone like Yoder, because of his record in attempting to in some way defend his behaviours.

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Cottontail

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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
No, you haven't demonstrated that.
I'm not a lawyer (thank Christ), so I'm not going to comment on what someone could be prosecuted for. I think harassing a student in the way described in that footnote is immoral.
Happy to concede it was an abuse of power. Abuse does I guess connote to me the sort of thing that one can be criminally prosecuted for, so perhaps breaking my own rule there. But I'm very reluctant to use that word, and I am here.
That really is all I'm going to say about this. I think it's off topic.

Okay. I'm fine with that, and will leave it there too. Thanks.

--------------------
"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
By their fruits you shall know them. Beware false prophets.

If you want to bandy quotations, 'We have this treasure in earthern vessels.'

--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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Evensong
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:

Evensong: are you actually calling MLK, Paul Tillich and Karl Barth false prophets?

Well ideas can technically stand or fall on their own merit.

But integrity seems to become an issue in this case.

Personally I think the virtue of fidelity is more important than the virtue of a brilliant idea.

--------------------
a theological scrapbook

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Evensong
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
By their fruits you shall know them. Beware false prophets.

If you want to bandy quotations, 'We have this treasure in earthern vessels.'
If the cracks in the vessel are too big, it won't hold water. [Razz]

--------------------
a theological scrapbook

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Dark Knight

Super Zero
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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:

Evensong: are you actually calling MLK, Paul Tillich and Karl Barth false prophets?

Well ideas can technically stand or fall on their own merit.

But integrity seems to become an issue in this case.

Personally I think the virtue of fidelity is more important than the virtue of a brilliant idea.

If you really think that MLK's work in civil rights and his legacy is less important than his marital fidelity, you're wronger than a wrong thing that is wrong.
And the idea that he is a false prophet is just plain dumb. Same goes for Tillich or Barth.

--------------------
So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me
- A B Original: I C U

----
Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).

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Dark Knight

Super Zero
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quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
On the one hand I can sympathize with those who want to include the lives of the theologian as part of the process that evaluates the theology - especially in cases like that of Yoder for the reasons Cottontail mentions.

OTOH, it may well be that Yoder's ideas are theologically consistent and valid, in spite of him having pushed them partially for venal reasons.

ISTM that whilst there are reasons why theology is different to any other intellectual endeavour, there are also powerful similarities. That plus common grace would explain why someone could be very insightful theologically whilst not living a life that comports with the beliefs that spring from that theology.

In each case we can examine the theologies produced to see if there is anything in them that might lead to the behaviour we find problematic. This is much easier to do in the case of someone like Yoder, because of his record in attempting to in some way defend his behaviours.

I thought this was a useful contribution. That's why I was interested in the blog Cottontail posted the link to, and the idea that Tillich's sexual philandering and his theology may have had some overlap. As much as I think the work can be regarded as discrete from someone's private life, I also think they can inform each other, and I would be interested to see how that may have happened in Tillich's case. Or how Barth came to terms with his theology and his relationship with von Kirschbaum. But I guess this thread is about Tillich.

--------------------
So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me
- A B Original: I C U

----
Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).

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Byron
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Even if we're judging Tillich's character, people must be judged in the context of their time.

In contemporary society, Tillich's actions are beyond the pale. In contemporary society, someone who expressed Abraham Lincoln's views on race would be ostracized, and rightly so. If we can make allowance for Lincoln, we can make allowance for Tillich, without soft-soaping what he did.

A lot of it rests on what Tillich had the potential to do. There's no evidence been provided that he ever did harm a student's career for rejecting him. Thankfully, we live in different times. Since Tillich died, Tile IX's been passed, which would impose sever penalty on any institution proved to tolerate sexual harassment from faculty members. (Even in the Sixties, depending on the contract the student signed, there may well have been some legal recourse for a supervisor who blatantly failed a student out of personal animus.)

We can take a balanced view of Tillich without downplaying the harm done by sexual harassment.

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Evensong
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
f you really think that MLK's work in civil rights and his legacy is less important than his marital fidelity, you're wronger than a wrong thing that is wrong.

Doubt his family would agree.
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Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Well ideas can technically stand or fall on their own merit.

But integrity seems to become an issue in this case.

Personally I think the virtue of fidelity is more important than the virtue of a brilliant idea.

It's about trust.

If they can't be trusted in such a fundamental area of life - can they be trusted in any other area; intellectual, political or theological?

--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk

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Byron
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Trust plays no role in analyzing Tillich's arguments. We go on what we read.

In any case, there's been no suggestion that, in academia, Tillich was other than scrupulous. People behave differently in different spheres.

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Dark Knight

Super Zero
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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
f you really think that MLK's work in civil rights and his legacy is less important than his marital fidelity, you're wronger than a wrong thing that is wrong.

Doubt his family would agree.
Right. Because that's the test. [Roll Eyes]

--------------------
So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me
- A B Original: I C U

----
Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).

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Dafyd
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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
f you really think that MLK's work in civil rights and his legacy is less important than his marital fidelity, you're wronger than a wrong thing that is wrong.

Doubt his family would agree.
King's family are still active in the civil rights movement, so I'm not convinced you're correct here. It doesn't seem one of those cases where the family feel they were treated as less important than other people's children.

(Mind you I think harassment is a degree worse than adultery.)

[ 25. September 2014, 08:30: Message edited by: Dafyd ]

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:

Personally I think the virtue of fidelity is more important than the virtue of a brilliant idea.

In judging the character of the person - yes. But then you have to judge their idea itself to some extent separately.

So it's possible to be subscribe to the civil rights ideas of MLK and be grateful that *someone* had the courage to hold to them, whilst still finding his particular behaviour problematic.

God works through flawed people, and often in spite of those flaws.

The problem is that when it comes to theology we can automatically assume that it must necessarily be primarily a case of prophetic inspiration, when perhaps it is sometimes better served by thinking of it as rather analogous to philosophy, albeit with its own vocabulary. I'm not saying that that's all it is - but perhaps considering in that way takes off the implicit feeling that a theologian is therefore automatically a great man go God.

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Boogie

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Yes chris stiles.

Brilliant but flawed - there are plenty of people in that category.

Our problem, I think, isn't so much with the flawed people as with the pedistals we put them on. So we assume good character where there is none.

Trust is a funny thing 'tho - once lost it's hard to regain no matter how detached one tries to be. If I can't trust the wo/man I find it very hard to believe what s/he says, however convincing their arguments.

Another brilliant bloke I know 'runs' (controls) two families - one didn't know about the other for four years. Now the first family is in a terrible way. I don't read his stuff - I can't be that detached.

I'm sure plenty of people can, or he wouldn't continue to write it.

--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk

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Kaplan Corday
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Some years ago I had an article in a national magazine called (from Solzhenitsyn) The Line Through The Heart.

Some former inmates of an orphanage were claiming that William Slim, governor-general of Australia, and previously commander of the Fourteenth Army in Burma, had molested them during official visits during the 1950s.

I tried to argue that assuming the allegations were true (and FWIW I think they were), his behaviour was totally unacceptable, but did not in any way cancel out his brilliant military success in helping defeat a bestial empire – the two things had to be kept separate.

In the same article I referred to George Orwell’s use of young (I hope not prepubescent) prostitutes in Burma and Morocco, and Arthur Koestler’s notoriety for serial sexual harassment, both of which were very serious, but do not compromise the value of their anti-Stalinism.

F. Scott Fitzgerald claimed that “the test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time”.

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Evensong
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
f you really think that MLK's work in civil rights and his legacy is less important than his marital fidelity, you're wronger than a wrong thing that is wrong.

Doubt his family would agree.
Right. Because that's the test. [Roll Eyes]
For me it would be yes. YMMV

--------------------
a theological scrapbook

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Evensong
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:

F. Scott Fitzgerald claimed that “the test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time”.

Bullshit. That's called compartmentalising so the cognitive dissonance doesn't tear you apart. It's just a coping mechanism.

--------------------
a theological scrapbook

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Evensong
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Well ideas can technically stand or fall on their own merit.

But integrity seems to become an issue in this case.

Personally I think the virtue of fidelity is more important than the virtue of a brilliant idea.

It's about trust.

If they can't be trusted in such a fundamental area of life - can they be trusted in any other area; intellectual, political or theological?

Yup. People matter. I don't see how its fine to treat your family like shit and go "save the world". Double standards.

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a theological scrapbook

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quetzalcoatl
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I thought that you Christians think that we're all fallible and broken (and sinful)?

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Evensong
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Are you implying Christians should accept all types of behaviour on that basis?

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Well ideas can technically stand or fall on their own merit.

But integrity seems to become an issue in this case.

Personally I think the virtue of fidelity is more important than the virtue of a brilliant idea.

It's about trust.

If they can't be trusted in such a fundamental area of life - can they be trusted in any other area; intellectual, political or theological?

Yup. People matter. I don't see how its fine to treat your family like shit and go "save the world". Double standards.
I'm with Evensong on this.

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Are you implying Christians should accept all types of behaviour on that basis?

No, that's not the point. You seem to be saying that a writer or thinker with various questionable traits should not be read or listened to. That seems very purist to me, and I would not do that, but if you would, fine.

Some of my favourite artists and writers had very dodgy private lives, but I still go and look at their pictures or read their books.

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Evensong
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It's a question of integrity. One definition of which is " of being whole and undivided".

Walk the talk. If they're not Christian then it probably doesn't matter. If they are, it does.

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
It's a question of integrity. One definition of which is " of being whole and undivided".

Walk the talk. If they're not Christian then it probably doesn't matter. If they are, it does.

So what do you do with people like Dr King? I mean do you turn the TV off when they appear? Or you would refuse to read Tillich?

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Dave Marshall

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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Walk the talk. If they're not Christian then it probably doesn't matter. If they are, it does.

How so? I didn't think being Christian was about having arrived at some perfect place, moral or otherwise.
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Boogie

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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:

F. Scott Fitzgerald claimed that “the test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time”.

Bullshit. That's called compartmentalising so the cognitive dissonance doesn't tear you apart. It's just a coping mechanism.
It's true that compartmentalising can facilitate all kinds of terrible behaviour and abuse.

But is reading and appreciating the work of a 'compartmentalisor' wrong?

I don't know.

Where do you draw the line? Would the people who find no difficulty appreciating the work of a flawed genius feel the same if that flawed genius had comitted mass murder, for example?

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Are you implying Christians should accept all types of behaviour on that basis?

Not all types of behaviour but all types of people.

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My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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Dark Knight

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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
It's a question of integrity. One definition of which is " of being whole and undivided".

Walk the talk. If they're not Christian then it probably doesn't matter. If they are, it does.

So what do you do with people like Dr King? I mean do you turn the TV off when they appear? Or you would refuse to read Tillich?
Leaving aside what utter crap the whole "walk the talk" line is, given that, indeed, most forms of Christianity I am aware of have a baseline understanding that people are imperfect, I am also curious to hear the answer to this question.
To return to the OP, what makes Tillich or any theologian relevant today is how their work is interpreted and used today. Tillich's has slipped into obscurity, ironically because the questions he addressed are not being asked anymore. I say "ironically" because Tillich's correlation method was designed to answer questions posed by culture through theology.
We do not disregard Luther's work because of his antisemitism, or Calvin's because he burned Spinoza, or Paul de Lagard's because of his disturbing nationalism, nor Kittle's theological dictionary because he was a Nazi. If marital infidelity or sexual harassment are special classes of sin that lead to us disregarding a person's work, I didn't get that memo.

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Boogie

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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:

We do not disregard Luther's work because of his antisemitism, or Calvin's because he burned Spinoza, or Paul de Lagard's because of his disturbing nationalism, nor Kittle's theological dictionary because he was a Nazi. If marital infidelity or sexual harassment are special classes of sin that lead to us disregarding a person's work, I didn't get that memo.

So would you draw any lines at all? Would you continue to regard the work of a mass murderer, for example?

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Dark Knight

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Like St Paul, for example?
Of course. I don't entirely disregard the life of an author of a text or set of texts - this is why I'm interested in how Tillich's sex life interacted with his thought. But I can assess the work on its own terms also.

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quetzalcoatl
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Well, Christians burned people for about a 1000 years. I don't know whether the people who turn their nose up at Dr King for being a womanizer, would therefore refuse to read any writings or ideas by Christians who had been involved in these punishments?

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Byron
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
[...] To return to the OP, ...

Hooray! [Big Grin]
quote:
... what makes Tillich or any theologian relevant today is how their work is interpreted and used today. Tillich's has slipped into obscurity, ironically because the questions he addressed are not being asked anymore. I say "ironically" because Tillich's correlation method was designed to answer questions posed by culture through theology. [...]
Yup, major league irony, especially as Tillich's attempt to reconcile theology with modernity would be a powerful riposte to new atheism. Problem is, most of those who'd be attracted by his work have straight-up abandoned religion, either for "spirituality," or non-belief.

Those who're left are, as a rule, either neo-orthodox, or more interested in social justice than theology as such. It's sad to see so many Episcopalians greet criticism of Tillich's popularizer, Spong, with a defensive, "We're not all like him, y'know!"

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Boogie

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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
Like St Paul, for example?

Maybe I should have said 'an unrepentant mass murderer'!

I find myself looking for motivations for everything, especially in those who compartmentalise.

But, as I said earlier, it's another subject and should have a thread of its own.

I'll shut up now [Smile]

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Stetson
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Dark Knight wrote:

quote:
We do not disregard Luther's work because of his antisemitism, or Calvin's because he burned Spinoza
Minor correction, but I think you mean Servetus, not Spinoza, as the guy burned by Calvin.

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:

If marital infidelity or sexual harassment are special classes of sin that lead to us disregarding a person's work, I didn't get that memo.

I think in general 'we' find it easier to excuse the faults of people who are long dead than people who are of more recent vintage.

See various publishers who have pulled books by Christians who have 'fallen from grace'.

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:

If marital infidelity or sexual harassment are special classes of sin that lead to us disregarding a person's work, I didn't get that memo.

I think in general 'we' find it easier to excuse the faults of people who are long dead than people who are of more recent vintage. ...
I don't think we are just making an issue of sexual misconduct. I am sure there are tele-evangelists who have had their hands in the till or lavished all manner of goodies, luxury homes, yachts, personal jets etc. on themselves and yet never been unfaithful to their wives. And what was wrong about what happened on July 18th 1969 isn't a possible suspicion of sexual irregularity. I'm not even sure that has ever been alleged.


It is also, of course, unfair to measure people in the past by standards other than those generally accepted as good conduct in the age in which they lived.

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Evensong
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
It's a question of integrity. One definition of which is " of being whole and undivided".

Walk the talk. If they're not Christian then it probably doesn't matter. If they are, it does.

So what do you do with people like Dr King? I mean do you turn the TV off when they appear? Or you would refuse to read Tillich?
I'll engage if I need to, but I wouldn't go out of my way to read their sermons (for example).

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