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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The mess at GTS
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
The "Chelsea Eight" were removed from the GTS faculty page today. The latest communication from Bishop Sisk, Chairman of the Board of Trustees, is not encouraging about the October 16 meeting.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
No movement visible, is there? - looks like a digging in to me.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
You were the one who said the faculty would never come to support a person who said such things. Glad you've moved beyond that. Again, when the board hired investigators to look into the dean's statements, the faculty said that was a small issue. This leads me to suspect that what the Dean actually said and in the context he said it won't rise to a fireball offense. I could be wrong.
I said it was unlikely that a man like the one described would come to enjoy their support, which I stand by. I could of course be wrong also, but that's my impression.
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
By "hard" evidence I mean corroborated evidence. At the moment it remains uncorroborated (multiple attestations by the 8 faculty almost certainly do not count as corroboration as their submission is a joint one and therefore not independent). Corroboration by someone else (e.g. a student) would count, provided they were not associated with the 8.
Without that, it becomes a "he said/she said" type of disagreement.
Actually, uncorroborated evidence is inadmissible in court in certain judicatures. I don't know if that's the case here as I'm not up to speed on how the law works there. But even in those where it is admissible (and I'm assuming a common law system based on English practice), a judge will usually issue an "unsafe to convict" order to the jury if all the evidence is uncorroborated. If it's not a jury trial of course, it's up to the judge to follow that guidance.
In any event, it's an academic point, as that evidence is being gathered right now. And as already pointed out, issues of context need to be gathered.
If judges toss uncorroborated cases, it'll be news to the procession of LEOs who testify in buy & busts!
The one jurisdiction that still makes extensive use of corroboration, Scotland, allows gangbangers to "corroborate" one another. Eight profs would, I think, have 'em beat, though YMMV. ![[Biased]](wink.gif) quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
The "Chelsea Eight" were removed from the GTS faculty page today. The latest communication from Bishop Sisk, Chairman of the Board of Trustees, is not encouraging about the October 16 meeting.
So the good bishop's fired people on strike, on the pretense that they'd resigned, despite being told in no uncertain terms that he's mistaken.
Screw taking the high road, I hope they sue the bastard.
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
quote:
If judges toss uncorroborated cases, it'll be news to the procession of LEOs who testify in buy & busts!
The one jurisdiction that still makes extensive use of corroboration, Scotland, allows gangbangers to "corroborate" one another. Eight profs would, I think, have 'em beat, though YMMV. [Biased]
You're missing the point! - the point is the evidence as it stands now. Undoubtedly if collected individually then individuals can corroborate each other. Which is presumably what will happen, though in my experience it's as likely to diverge as converge when you do that or test it.
Though to an extent our discussion is a side issue. These sort of things we are discussing are looking to a future where legal action is the order of the day. Hopefully it will never reach that. But for the sake of the faculty, the collection of the evidence in a more formal way is rather important.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
Yes, I see your point from a rules of evidence POV. Like you, I wasn't approaching it in that way, but was saying I think there's enough for me to reasonably find the faculty's account persuasive, especially when the behavior of the board and its chair is factored in.
As for future legal action, I join in your hope that it's unnecessary, but that'll require the board to do a swift about-face.
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Frank Griswold will be facilitating the meeting between the faculty and trustees.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Frank Griswold will be facilitating the meeting between the faculty and trustees.
I was just about to post that! (Isn't Episcopal News Service wonderful?)
Details here.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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LA Dave
Shipmate
# 1397
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Posted
Latest from the interwebs: Board of Trustees met and chair Bishop Mark Sisk: 1. Expressed confidence in Dean and President and 2. Said GTS 8 not to be reinstated and 3. Expressed need for reconciliation.
Much pissedoffnedness on the web by alums and students.
Posts: 981 | From: Take a guess | Registered: Sep 2001
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LA Dave
Shipmate
# 1397
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Posted
GTS Board of Trustees released written statement in which they indicated that the GTS 8 would be offered the chance to apply for "provisional reinstatement as members of the faculty."
Posts: 981 | From: Take a guess | Registered: Sep 2001
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LA Dave
Shipmate
# 1397
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Posted
The Board's offer to the GTS 8 is being seen as somewhat of a chimera; presumably, not respecting of tenure and no wiggle room to negotiate for salary and benefits.
The real question is, how many current students will stay on? GTS has long been considered the most prestigious, or among the most prestigious, seminaries in TEC.
Posts: 981 | From: Take a guess | Registered: Sep 2001
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
Statement from GTS:
Episcopal News Service
There's a document on the safeseminary website describing spring changes to the bylaws (changes which were not publicized) which pretty much put the writing on the wall as to what the likely outcome would be, once I read it.
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Board went all in with the Dean.
I guess that was an option.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I suspect this will come back to bite the GTS board on the backside within a relatively short period of time. Given the way they have handled this situation, would you go and work for them ?
[ 18. October 2014, 08:47: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Here is a commentary on the GTS debacle by the Dean of Bexley Hall (the Crusty Old Dean).
A friend posted this on facebook as a commentary. (NSFW)
As a matter of fact, the above video can serve as my commentary on the entire Episcopal Church. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
[ 18. October 2014, 15:00: Message edited by: Beeswax Altar ]
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
I suspect this will come back to bite the GTS board on the backside within a relatively short period of time. Given the way they have handled this situation, would you go and work for them ?
And who would want to attend GTS? And what Bishop would want to send seminarians there? And (most important to the Powers That Be!) who would want to support GTS financially?
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Yeah, unless the board and trustees knows something the rest of us don't, General is in serious trouble. On the other hand, I haven't seen a single bishop condemn the actions of the Board. Perhaps, the diocesan bishops that send students to General support what the board did. Qualified professors will be easy to find. The prospect of the ATS yanking their accreditation doesn't seem to phase them either. I don't know what anybody is thinking.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Qualified professors will be easy to find.
I assume that the situation in seminaries is the same as it is in the humanities in secular universities -- there are far more people with appropriate degrees and experience than there are jobs. Am I wrong?
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
You are right.
[ 18. October 2014, 22:34: Message edited by: Beeswax Altar ]
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
I'm not surprised by hardball being played, that's been evident for weeks. I am surprised by the bible verses cited at the end of the GTS statement. Glib dressing up of a statement that explains nothing with "don't question us, we're in charge and you need to be reminded of gospel values that we are showing no evidence whatsoever of understanding." The worst sort of Christian cant. And this is even assuming that the board is justified in their actions: in the face of so many unanswered questions and strange events and allegations, it's still cant.
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Tom Breidenthal, Bishop of Southern Ohio, released a statement supporting the faculty and condemning the actions of the board. This is a big deal. Southern Ohio is a large and wealthy diocese. Breidenthal was a former professor at GTS and Dean of Religious Life at Princeton. Everybody I know respects him.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
Thanks for posting about Bishop Briedenthal's statement, BA. I found that it was published on Facebook and picked up by The Episcopal Cafe. If the comments on FB are correct, he is the first bishop to issue a statement. Here's his conclusion:
quote:
It should be obvious why I am outraged as a former faculty member; any faculty member at any institution of higher learning should be outraged by this board’s action. Why am I outraged as a bishop? Because this action will go a long way toward confirming the unchurched in their assumption that institutional religion cannot be trusted. I continue to pray that the board will reverse its decision and reinstate the eight. Then real conversation can begin.
The bit about what the unchurched think about us ... sad, true, damning.
How are people chosen to serve on the GTS board? Can they be removed? And if a lot of bishops and dioceses agree with Bishop Briedenthal, will it matter? The Episcopal Cafe notes that the Diocese of California voted today at their convention to condemn the GTS board's action.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
I join in thanking Beeswax Altar for highlighting Breidenthal's statement, that rarest of things, power speaking truth.
Now let's see Katharine Jefferts Schori step up and step in.
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by RuthW:
How are people chosen to serve on the GTS board? Can they be removed? And if a lot of bishops and dioceses agree with Bishop Briedenthal, will it matter? The Episcopal Cafe notes that the Diocese of California voted today at their convention to condemn the GTS board's action.
I don't know how the GTS board is selected. Every bishop has a list of approved seminaries. Bishops can simply stop sending postulants to General. General can't stay open without students.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
How are people chosen to serve on the GTS board?
I believe at least a couple of them are elected by General Convention. So next summer's GC could be interesting. (Normally that's an election that draws very little attention.)
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
Now let's see Katharine Jefferts Schori step up and step in.
Does she have any specific role or leverage here? Or just the bully pulpit?
There's a moveon.org petition asking her to act, but of course it just says she "can make this right" -- not how.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
Mainly bully pulpit, I think, appropriate for dealing with bullies.
If she and the other bishops issue a joint statement condemning General, and refuse to send any more students until the board resign, the board are done.
If she and the majority of bishops stay silent, they're condoning an attack on labor that'd shame the Pinkertons, in defense of a man accused of racism and homophobia. For a progressive church to act in this way is its end.
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
For a progressive church to act in this way is its end.
All of TEC is doomed? That seems a bit overstated.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
For the confused amongst us.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
All of TEC is doomed? That seems a bit overstated.
Perhaps, but it markets itself to progressives. If it's seen to be giving the nod to strikebreaking, blackleg labor, and racial bigotry, its targeted demographic will, at the least, have second thoughts.
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
Now let's see Katharine Jefferts Schori step up and step in.
Does she have any specific role or leverage here? Or just the bully pulpit?
From
A History of General Seminary:
quote:
In 1817 the General Convention met in New York City and on May 26-27 [this Resolution] passed both Houses: That it is expedient to establish a General Theological Seminary which may have the united support of the whole Church in the United States and be under the superintendence and control of the General Convention.
The Presiding Bishop is the Chair of the House of Bishops and, I believe, also the Chair of the two Houses when they meet together (I need to check this when I have more time). So she does have more of a role than she would for any other Seminary.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
Thanks, Pigwidgeon.
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
For the confused amongst us.
I took Byron's post to be a pun.
[ 19. October 2014, 20:00: Message edited by: RuthW ]
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
KJS is on the Board of Trustees. As Thomas Ferguson points out, KJS accepted the voluntary renunciation of ordained ministry from Mark Lawrence then Bishop of South Carolina even when no such renunciation was offered. Sisk was just following the example she set.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
KJS is on the Board of Trustees. As Thomas Ferguson points out, KJS accepted the voluntary renunciation of ordained ministry from Mark Lawrence then Bishop of South Carolina even when no such renunciation was offered. Sisk was just following the example she set.
The desire of Lawrence, and the leadership of South Carolina, to leave TEC was exhibited in a pattern of conduct over several years, something ruled on by a disciplinary board after complaints were filed from within SC.
Schori may have been technically incorrect, or may not (I'm not up on the relevant canons), but Lawrence's intent to renounce membership of TEC was clear and sustained. It's not comparable to the NY situation, based on a single letter, swiftly retracted.
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Board went all in with the Dean.
I guess that was an option.
Of course they did; he's their boy. My guess is that GTS is hemorrhaging spondulicks and that the board gave Dunkle a mandate to turn things around at GTS by any means necessary. He failed to bring the faculty aboard, whether through their intransigence or his own incompetence (I'm guessing a little of both), and the board decided they weren't going to let that detail stop their train.
TEC may wind up with one fewer seminary. On the other hand, judging by numbers there really only seems to be a need for 3 or 4, not 9.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
Some general questions that need answering:-
- how did the faculty come to have zero power in their own institution?
- how did General get into this financial mess to begin with?
- why did the board vest Dunkle with dictatorial power, not only over finances, but the entire running of the seminary (including service times)?
- how did the board at a mainline, progressive seminary come to be packed with strikebreakers?
It's the strikebreaking that does it for me. Even if the allegations against Dunkle prove baseless, that indisputably happened. One of Beeswax Altar's links coined a phrase that says it all: scab seminary.
Yes, they can get some desperate postgrads in to teach, but their caliber will be rock-bottom, both academically, and morally. Blacklegs are reviled even when they're starving. To blackleg just to get on in academia ...
quote:
After God had finished the rattlesnake, the toad, and the vampire, he had some awful substance left with which he made a scab.
A scab is a two-legged animal with a corkscrew soul, a water brain, a combination backbone of jelly and glue. Where others have hearts, he carries a tumor of rotten principles.
When a scab comes down the street, men turn their backs and angels weep in heaven, and the devil shuts the gates of hell to keep him out.
No man (or woman) has a right to scab so long as there is a pool of water to drown his carcass in, or a rope long enough to hang his body with. Judas was a gentleman compared with a scab. For betraying his master, he had character enough to hang himself. A scab has not.
Esau sold his birthright for a mess of pottage. Judas sold his Savior for thirty pieces of silver. Benedict Arnold sold his country for a promise of a commission in the British army. The scab sells his birthright, country, his wife, his children and his fellowmen for an unfulfilled promise from his employer.
Esau was a traitor to himself; Judas was a traitor to his God; Benedict Arnold was a traitor to his country; a scab is a traitor to his God, his country, his family and his class.
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by Byron:
Schori may have been technically incorrect, or may not (I'm not up on the relevant canons), but Lawrence's intent to renounce membership of TEC was clear and sustained. It's not comparable to the NY situation, based on a single letter, swiftly retracted.
Schori accepted a resignation that wasn't a resignation to make it easier to get rid of a thorn in her side. Her supporters looked the other way. Now, a Board on which KJS sits does the same thing for the same reason. This time almost everybody is shocked and horrified because the victims of the tactic are good progressives like themselves instead of those nasty conservatives. I find it amusing the faculty supporters think the PB is going to intervene and make this all better. Let me repeat...she's on the freaking Board!
quote:
originally posted by Fr Weber
TEC may wind up with one fewer seminary. On the other hand, judging by numbers there really only seems to be a need for 3 or 4, not 9.
Sure, TEC has more seminaries than it needs. I thought General would be ones that stayed open along the CDSP, Sewanee, and VTS. Looks like I was wrong.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Schori accepted a resignation that wasn't a resignation to make it easier to get rid of a thorn in her side. Her supporters looked the other way.
Me, I'm no supported of Schori. Her early imposition of a sexuality-based "moratorium" was a disgrace, and she knowingly ordained a pedophile. Sad to say, as episcopal bosses go, she's one of the better examples.
So when I draw a distinction between the two situations, it's based on the facts, not favorable bias. Lawrence maneuvered for years to get SC out TEC: his schismatic intent was suspected back in '07, which proved well founded. He should never have been raised to the purple.
Even if Schori acted wrongly then, the two situations aren't comparable.
quote:
Now, a Board on which KJS sits does the same thing for the same reason. This time almost everybody is shocked and horrified because the victims of the tactic are good progressives like themselves instead of those nasty conservatives. I find it amusing the faculty supporters think the PB is going to intervene and make this all better. Let me repeat...she's on the freaking Board!
So's the bishop of NY, who's now repented and apologized. As pressure grows, Schori may well do likewise. If not, her legacy will be, to say the least, tarnished.
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
And now the Bishop of New Jersey has, reluctantly, gotten of the fence, and agreed to support Dietsche's call for unconditional reinstatement.
What stands out is that he seems to have no concept of just what he's put his name to. He says his support for "conditional reinstatement" was based on "deep concern that [faculty] have not, as far as I am aware, rescinded the ultimatums." He seems not to understand that his concerns are irrelevant. He broke a strike, and fired tenured faculty not only without cause, but without even the appearance of process.
As these people so cocooned in their ivory towers that they don't even know what strikebreaking is, and why it's so reviled? If so, the disconnect helps explain why TEC is in such trouble.
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Try
Shipmate
# 4951
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Schori accepted a resignation that wasn't a resignation to make it easier to get rid of a thorn in her side. Her supporters looked the other way.
Me, I'm no supported of Schori. Her early imposition of a sexuality-based "moratorium" was a disgrace, and she knowingly ordained a pedophile. Sad to say, as episcopal bosses go, she's one of the better examples.
So when I draw a distinction between the two situations, it's based on the facts, not favorable bias. Lawrence maneuvered for years to get SC out TEC: his schismatic intent was suspected back in '07, which proved well founded. He should never have been raised to the purple.
Even if Schori acted wrongly then, the two situations aren't comparable.
quote:
Now, a Board on which KJS sits does the same thing for the same reason. This time almost everybody is shocked and horrified because the victims of the tactic are good progressives like themselves instead of those nasty conservatives. I find it amusing the faculty supporters think the PB is going to intervene and make this all better. Let me repeat...she's on the freaking Board!
So's the bishop of NY, who's now repented and apologized. As pressure grows, Schori may well do likewise. If not, her legacy will be, to say the least, tarnished.
Mark Lowrance ought to have been dealt with a church trial under Title IV for violating the canons on abandonment of communion. That would have been fair and just. But interpreting verbal remarks at a convention as a resignation of orders is a flat-out violation of our canons. The canon concerning resignation requires a written letter of resignation and it is intended only for cases when the bishop or priest is renouncing ordained ministry completely.
As for the seminary situation, construing a work stoppage as a resignation seems to be a logical extension of the same theory. I'm much more in sympathy with the GTS 8 than I am with +Mark. But they've been treated in the same way by the powers that be in TEC.
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“I’m so glad to be a translator in the 20th century. They only burn Bibles now, not the translators!” - the Rev. Dr. Bruce M. Metzger
Posts: 852 | From: Beautiful Ohio, in dreams again I see... | Registered: Sep 2003
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
And now the Bishop of New Jersey has, reluctantly, gotten of the fence, and agreed to support Dietsche's call for unconditional reinstatement.
What stands out is that he seems to have no concept of just what he's put his name to. He says his support for "conditional reinstatement" was based on "deep concern that [faculty] have not, as far as I am aware, rescinded the ultimatums." He seems not to understand that his concerns are irrelevant. He broke a strike, and fired tenured faculty not only without cause, but without even the appearance of process.
As these people so cocooned in their ivory towers that they don't even know what strikebreaking is, and why it's so reviled? If so, the disconnect helps explain why TEC is in such trouble.
I really don't think this old left view of striking workers resonates quite as much as you think it does in the 21st century US. I'm also not sure the faculty had a legal right to strike either. We may yet hear a judge's opinion of that. Firing them and calling it a resignation is the main problem even if it turns out to be legal. Not ad
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
Try, accepting (arguendo) that Lawrence was entitled to a trial, due to his clear, declared intent to secede from TEC, and take his diocese with him, I'd rank the wrong as minor compared to the New York fubar. The NYC power imbalance just isn't there in SC, and if Lawrence intended to use his trial as a platform, it could've destroyed the church. The constitution isn't a suicide pact.
Beeswax Altar, what matters isn't how this strikebreaking plays in some right-to-work red state, but amongst the progressive constituency courted by TEC. With the breakaway of most of its conservative wing, and the end of its role as de facto national church, that's its target demographic in the marketplace of religion. Even if they're limosine liberals, the allegations of bigotry will hit home.
Posts: 1112 | Registered: Mar 2010
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Lawrence's trial would not have destroyed TEC. That's just silly. If the evidence he intended to leave TEC was that obvious, the thing to do was to follow the canons. However, one thing I've learned about politics in TEC is that only those who disagree with you are required to obey the constitution and canons.
I'm not talking about right to work red states. I'm talking about the US as a whole. Striking workers just don't get as much sympathy as they used to get. I live in a rust belt state with a complex view of unions and strikes. Besides, TEC shouldn't have a constituency to which we market. If we do, we've already ceased to be a church that proclaims the gospel.
In fact, the statement of the Bishop of New Jersey represents everything wrong with TEC leadership. He calls on the Board to contract with a mediator outside of TEC to facilitate reconciliation etc... What kind of bullshit statement is that? You don't have to look outside of TEC, bishop. I'm Beeswax Altar of BA Spiritual Solutions. At BASS, we offer a number of sacramental services designed to maximize the grace received by our clients. Sounds like you need our Reconciliation package with the added confession and listening modules.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
I wish you joy in your startup. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
OK, hyperbole at play in " destroyed," but a trial would've been a circus, a protracted stage for Lawrence to seek converts and destabilize TEC, all with a verdict never in doubt.
I've gone read the canon, and the sticking point is the written notification limb. Given Lawrence's very public statements, and institutional support down south (just what is it with SC and secession ...), that's a technicality. Schori fulfilled the advice and consent provision, which is the safeguard. She does appear to've obeyed the spirit of the law.
As for labor, it's no wonder that folk are ambivalent about unions in the ghost town of American industry. TEC appeals to an altogether more idealistic crowd. Whether it should or not is, of course, a matter for debate. As a believer in the market, I'm all for it.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Byron, I've not really been following this thread, but a Director and a Board of Trustees who take advantage of staff who have withdrawn their labour to sack them, may be aggressive or even bullying, but they aren't scabs or strikebreakers. They're the bosses. You expect them to try and suppress strikes. That's what bosses do.
A scab is an offensive accusation strikers use to call people names who don't strike with them. It's designed to make them feel guilty and whip up hostility towards those not one strike from sympathisers outside the business.
A strikebreaker is a person who takes the bosses' money to come in from outside and do the job of someone who is on strike.
As this strike is an unofficial one, i.e. it hasn't been called by a union, it's difficult to argue that staff that haven't joined it are scabs. There is though an argument that, irrespective of whether they might have been motivated by concern for the students, those from outside who have agreed to cover the classes of the striking staff could have to answer the accusation of being strikebreakers.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
Enoch, they're a board at a seminary, not railroad barons, and not expected to act like bossmen. You're right, scab's a strong word, but a word rightly used by the other dean in response to strong actions. People should feel wretched for so much as thinking of crossing a picket line.
However haphazardly, the faculty set up a union and went on strike. To allow strikers to be dismissed at-will takes us back to the Lochner era. What can we expect next, Pinkertons milling around 21st St., perhaps a biplane or two buzzing overhead.
At least men in the cut or at the pithead were under no illusions of being tenured. The board trampled over the faculty's employment contacts. Congrats, they've gone so far even the Lochner court would be appalled.
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
You can't haphazardly set up a union and call a strike. I don't think labor law works that way at all. Both sides were wrong to treat the fiasco like a labor dispute in the first place.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
Byron posts:
quote:
I've gone read the canon, and the sticking point is the written notification limb. Given Lawrence's very public statements, and institutional support down south (just what is it with SC and secession ...), that's a technicality.
Technicalities, also known as due procedure, are a key element of law. Failing to observe them carefully suggest either laziness or a very weak case.
I'm not au fait with NY labour or contract law (although it would appear that many lawyers specializing in this area will have a field day and skiing trips paid for out of this) but would seem to me that the board should have taken much stronger steps to deal with staff grievances and try to bring in a mediator at an earlier point-- perhaps they did and we don't have all of the facts yet. If this were an RC seminary, at least we could pull out Leo XIII and Piux XI on labour relations against which we could measure the board's actions.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Mockingbird
Mimus polyglottos navis
# 5818
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
=Of course they did; he's their boy. My guess is that GTS is hemorrhaging spondulicks and that the board gave Dunkle a mandate to turn things around at GTS by any means necessary. He failed to bring the faculty aboard
I somewhat agree up until the last clause, where I am uncertain. It seems increasingly possible that the board hired the dean with the intention that he would antagonize the faculty into resigning so that they could hire younger, cheaper replacements. And the faculty walked right into the trap. I see no need to commend the board, but neither see I any need to side with the resigned faculty. They overplayed their hand, and lost. That's how the game goes.
[ 21. October 2014, 01:15: Message edited by: Mockingbird ]
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Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.
Posts: 1443 | From: Between Broken Bow and Black Mesa | Registered: Apr 2004
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mockingbird:
...the resigned faculty. They overplayed their hand, and lost. That's how the game goes.
And the students also lost.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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