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Source: (consider it) Thread: From TICTH - The dozy chav
LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

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quote:
seekingsister: What is the typical bra size for a 5'5 woman who weighs 150 pounds - 25th - 75th percentile. Let the NHS patient choose her size from this range. Still get the breasts you need.
And if you were the boss of the NHS, I'm sure this is what you would do.

Maybe as an individual I also think that the NHS should have given her a different cup size, for whatever reasons I might have for this. I'm entitled to my opinion, like any other person. But, as an individual I don't get to influence what happens between her and her doctor. Neither can the Daily Mail or the collective consciousness of the internet. And I find that a very good thing.

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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Quite - I do fail to see the point.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110

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So do I.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Curiosity killed ...

Ship's Mug
# 11770

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Another person here who cannot see the problem with DD cup - I am 32/34DD/E naturally on a 5'2" size 10/12 frame, my daughter is 28DD/E on her size 6/8 frame and similar height. Nor has my size changed much since I was 18. And no, I don't get backache either. Only problem (other than finding fitted shirts) is that I need to wear a sports bra to be comfortable exercising.

The girls with augmented breasts are going for 28G and 28H (just try buying 28E bras and you learn these things).

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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707

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Glad you're all so happy to fund body dysmorphia and glamour model aspirations - enjoy!
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013  |  IP: Logged
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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So she shouldn't get medical treatment because she wants to be a glamour model ?

(As far as I know she doesn't have body dysmorphia, which is something they would screen for *before* offering surgery as it is a contraindication.)

[ 01. October 2014, 22:19: Message edited by: Doublethink ]

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

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Funding glamour aspirations - WTF? This is getting more and more like a Daily Mail front page.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Autenrieth Road

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# 10509

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Women being judged on the size of their breasts. Gee, where have I met that attitude before? Didn't expect to meet it among Shippies.

[ 01. October 2014, 22:31: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]

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Truth

Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Curiosity killed ...

Ship's Mug
# 11770

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But DD is not glamour model sized, really truly. It's pretty average.

Glamour model sized is out in the G and H cups, Jordan (Katie Price) claimed to be a DD, but was really a 32FF depending on what you read and has now reduced her implants to a 32D.

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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

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quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
But DD is not glamour model sized, really truly. It's pretty average.

Glamour model sized is out in the G and H cups, Jordan (Katie Price) claimed to be a DD, but was really a 32FF depending on what you read and has now reduced her implants to a 32D.

Yeah, but 'glamour model' fits the Daily Mail mentality: 'Chav gets massive boob job for glamour modelling career, while others die'.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:


AIUI women do not have cosmetic surgery for the benefit of men, nor do they spend billions on apparell and beautification for the benefit of men. It is done for themselves, one reason being that women compete with each-other on a subliminal level. If the cosmetic industry makes women more 'acceptable to men' then that is a byproduct, it is not the driving force behind it.

Men's magazines = big tits
Women's Magazines = rail thin
Try again.

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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Tubbs

Miss Congeniality
# 440

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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
But DD is not glamour model sized, really truly. It's pretty average.

Glamour model sized is out in the G and H cups, Jordan (Katie Price) claimed to be a DD, but was really a 32FF depending on what you read and has now reduced her implants to a 32D.

Yeah, but 'glamour model' fits the Daily Mail mentality: 'Chav gets massive boob job for glamour modelling career, while others die'.
Pretty much. The DM hates women, the poor and the NHS so this story is a gold mine for them.

Everyone working themselves up about this seems to be quietly ignoring the fact that she was bullied over her physical appearence. And she did have a geninue medical problem. I mean, having no breasts or uneven ones can't be a big deal, can it? People, particularly teenagers, are just so accepting of others whose appearance doesn't fit the norm. And, when offered the chance for surgical treatment, someone who's never had breasts before might be tempted to go for something that ensures that no one will ever tease them again.

No, of course none of these things matter because she's just a chavvy slag and deserved what she got. Classist much?!

Tubbs

[ 02. October 2014, 09:05: Message edited by: Tubbs ]

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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am

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Matt Black

Shipmate
# 2210

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quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
So she shouldn't get medical treatment because she wants to be a glamour model ?


Er...no, certainly not at taxpayers' expense...as in, WTF?! As in, she's welcome to have a boob job to further her career if she wants, but don't expect the rest of us to pay for it! I go on CPD courses to further my career, but don't ask the taxpayer to pick up the tab.

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

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Tubbs

Miss Congeniality
# 440

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quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
So she shouldn't get medical treatment because she wants to be a glamour model ?


Er...no, certainly not at taxpayers' expense...as in, WTF?! As in, she's welcome to have a boob job to further her career if she wants, but don't expect the rest of us to pay for it! I go on CPD courses to further my career, but don't ask the taxpayer to pick up the tab.
She got medical treatment because she needed it, just like many other people do. Or do breast problems come under the things that the NHS doesn't treat anymore because they're a luxury. Her career choices after that are up to her.

Tubbs

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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am

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Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
# 15351

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quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
So she shouldn't get medical treatment because she wants to be a glamour model ?


Er...no, certainly not at taxpayers' expense...as in, WTF?! As in, she's welcome to have a boob job to further her career if she wants, but don't expect the rest of us to pay for it! I go on CPD courses to further my career, but don't ask the taxpayer to pick up the tab.
Missed point error (I think). I believe the argument goes:

  • she has a medical condition that requires treatment
  • independent of this, she fancies being a glamour model[1]
  • should she be denied the (necessary) procedure because she can get some synergy from it?

[1]Regardless of the wisdom/likelihood of being able to make this a reality

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Vain witterings :-: Vain pretentions :-: The Dog's Blog(locks)

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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

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There seems to be a logic failure going on here. From 'she had medical treatment, and then she wanted a modelling career', we get to 'she had a boob job in order to have a modelling career'.

In the second version, the medical treatment just disappears.

Some kind of class prejudice maybe. Working class chavs don't really need medical treatment.

*Same point as Snags really.

[ 02. October 2014, 09:35: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Matt Black

Shipmate
# 2210

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OK, misunderstood - I thought Doublethink was saying she had the procedure to further her career prospects as a glamour model

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707

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I don't wish to spread them around, but in regard to this story I've come across several internet forums where women ask "What should I say to my doctor to get him to refer me for breast implants" essentially asking for the "script" on how to claim psychological problems as a result of a flat chest, when in fact the primary issue is a desire (and not a medical need) to change appearance.

To me this is the same type of abuse of the system as drug seeking behavior by addicts. I believe following Miss Cunningham's story the NHS has tightened its rules on who is allowed to receive augmentations, but the fact that it has happened means that we have people who are spending a great deal of energy trying to game the system so that they can get their turn.

The size debate has gone on but anyone who has Googled this woman can see that she does not have average proportions. She has glamour model/adult film star proportions. NHS-funded B cups aren't going to get the recipient onto Page 3, and won't get the publicity that cases like this one have - which fuel the behavior I just mentioned above.

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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

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The tabloids in this case are using a weird kind of prioritization - really saying that the £4000 on this operation could be used towards cancer treatment, hence the headlines 'this woman has boob job and my son can't get X medication'.

However, how far would this go? The NHS carries out quite a number of minor ops - so should these be cancelled and the money carried across to cancer? For example, if you break your nose in an accident, the NHS will reset it for you. But if you cancelled all such operations, think of how much money you could save. A few misshapen noses would be a small price to pay. And so on and so on.

I suppose also behind it is an attitude of mysogyny and anti-working class sentiment - why should a chav like this get free treatment? And then for some, like the DM, they hate the NHS.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Matt Black

Shipmate
# 2210

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Maybe we should prioritise life-saving medical treatment?

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

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Zoey

Broken idealist
# 11152

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quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Maybe we should prioritise life-saving medical treatment?

I've been refraining from making the point that if I were in charge of the NHS (which fortunately for everyone is never going to happen) nobody would get any fertility treatment or IVF on the NHS. I've refrained from making this point so far, because I know it's a personal hobbyhorse of mine based on my own emotional baggage. But, Matt Black, if your position is as stated in your last post, do you think the NHS should stop all spending on fertility problems and IVF? Nobody is going to die of not having a baby.

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Pay no mind, I'm doing fine, I'm breathing on my own.

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The Great Gumby

Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989

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quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Maybe we should prioritise life-saving medical treatment?

And herein lies the problem. Lots of people seem to be stuck in a false dichotomy of "essential life-saving treatment v trivial waste of money", but that's not the reality. What the Tory Mail-reading vultures close their eyes and ears to is that the apparently small, trivial operations are the ones that return the true value, both personally and for the country as a whole.

The only operation I ever had on the NHS was to straighten my nose after it was hit by a cricket ball - presumably, if I had aspirations to be a professional cricketer that would qualify as a Waste Of Public Money in some people's eyes. The operation was partly cosmetic, but it was also preventative. By straightening it, possible future problems with further deterioration and breathing difficulties were avoided. Similarly, if someone's self image and mental health are adversely affected by having no breasts, correcting that turns out to be the cheap option for the NHS and the country as a whole. It's not like there are signs up at hospitals advertising free boob jobs - this is a considered use of resources.

The NHS does have finite resources, and sometimes tough decisions have to be made about what treatments should be funded and what shouldn't, but that doesn't always mean what you think, and a strict cost-benefit analysis would probably indicate less "life-saving medical treatment" than is currently offered. A "frivolous" operation has exactly the same value as an accident prevention campaign, or a mental health and wellbeing service, and the only reason they don't get the Daily Heil "this money could be spent on teh Cancer Kiddiez" treatment is because it would be too obvious that they're acting like monumentally disingenuous dicks.

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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman

A letter to my son about death

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Matt Black

Shipmate
# 2210

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Not necessarily, but if we are saying that NHS resources are ever-diminishing (which is all I ever seem to hear), then priorities must surely be re-jigged. For example, about 10 years ago I had a nose op on the NHS to stop me snoring so much -I'm not sure that I should not have paid privately for that then, and I don't think the case should be made out for me to have it on the NHS now, given that there was nothing life-threatening such as apnoea attached to the condition, I just have a wonky nose!

[CP with TGG - I was going to say 'snap!' but maybe that's inappropriate with a broken nose...]

[ 02. October 2014, 10:30: Message edited by: Matt Black ]

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

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Zoey

Broken idealist
# 11152

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If Gumby had posted 10 minutes earlier, I probably would have refrained from posting at all, because he's outlined the overall issues very eloquently and without the emotional baggage I bring to fertility issues.

(I think I've heard arguments that fertility treatment on the NHS should happen, amongst other reasons, because people's mental health is severely negatively affected by not having babies. Also, on a cost-benefit basis, if people scrape together money for privately-funded IVF they're more likely to go for having ridiculous numbers of embryos put in in one go, thereby increasing the risk of having multiples born very prematurely who cost a fortune in specialist neo-natal medical care.)

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Pay no mind, I'm doing fine, I'm breathing on my own.

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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110

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quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
A "frivolous" operation has exactly the same value as an accident prevention campaign, or a mental health and wellbeing service, and the only reason they don't get the Daily Heil "this money could be spent on teh Cancer Kiddiez" treatment is because it would be too obvious that they're acting like monumentally disingenuous dicks.

Preach it Brother Gumby. I'm very glad I left the thread open.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

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quote:
seekingsister: I don't wish to spread them around, but in regard to this story I've come across several internet forums where women ask "What should I say to my doctor to get him to refer me for breast implants" essentially asking for the "script" on how to claim psychological problems as a result of a flat chest, when in fact the primary issue is a desire (and not a medical need) to change appearance.
And I'm pretty sure that none of the women whom you've seen debating these things will actually manage to get a breast enhancement on the NHS. Look at the NHS website, these things are rare.

AFAICT Ms. Cunningham didn't rig the system, she didn't give false information about her health status, she didn't bribe anyone. There are some conditions under which a rare number of people qualify for a breast enhancement under the NHS, and she qualified. Good on her. You may not agree with these conditions, but then you should seek the democratic channels to try to change them. That has nothing to do with Ms. Cunningham. And your arguments to change them so far have been very weak.

After she's been approved for such an operation, what happens next is between her and her doctor. And that's a pretty sacred space to me, which no-one on the outside should influence. I'm sure that her doctor has done a risk assessment and established that the requested cup size doesn't pose a health threat to her. You may not agree with that risk assessment, but that's not your call. You may have esthetical objections against the cup size she chose, but that's not your call either.

What you seem to suggest in your previous posts is that you or the comments section of the Daily Mail should have a say in what happens between a doctor and a patient. I'm not British but if I were, I'd find that scary. Very scary.

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

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Right on, Brother Gumby.

Something I've been involved with professionally is depression and anxiety. Well, an argument could be made that the NHS should not be treating these, but should use that money for 'life-saving'.

Of course, treatment for depression and anxiety can be life-saving indeed; none the less, one still hears the slander quite commonly, that depressed people are too self-centred and lazy and should get off the sofa and do an honest day's work.

Of course, this is callous in the extreme, but then the Daily Mail, and like-minded people, are.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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LeRoc

Yes, I think we should have a vote on operations, to decide if they are necessary or life-saving.

Old guy needs his wisdom tooth extracted - well, maybe, but let's face it, how much longer has he got? Cancel.

Young kid with fractured elbow - nah, it'll mend in good time, no danger to life.

Slag wants facial surgery to correct a bad birth-mark - nah, she's a slag.

Immigrant wants anything done - no thank you very much, go back where you came.

This could be a vote-winner!

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

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quote:
quetzalcoatl: Yes, I think we should have a vote on operations, to decide if they are necessary or life-saving.
Don't be ridiculous. A vote? A reality show where people send messages costing £2 each! Don't you ever think of the babies who could be saved with this money?

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707

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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
What you seem to suggest in your previous posts is that you or the comments section of the Daily Mail should have a say in what happens between a doctor and a patient. I'm not British but if I were, I'd find that scary. Very scary.

I "seem to suggest" nothing of the sort.

Giving out huge glamour model implants on the NHS draws negative publicity to the service and serves to contribute to a loss of faith in it. This is bad.

I am 100% supportive of augmentation for medical reasons as Miss Cunningham had. My problem is with the provision of sizes that are beyond what is typical for a woman naturally. You can find articles about her where she says she dreamt of being a glamour model from age 10, so to pretend that her choice to get DD implants was totally unrelated to this stretches credulity, in my opinion. She would have been well served with a B/C and we would not be talking about her now if that's what she had received.

I don't read the Daily Mail (the link in this thread is probably the only time in recent memory I've been on its website). I don't care what it's commenters think. What I am saying is what I think, end of story.

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North East Quine

Curious beastie
# 13049

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quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Maybe we should prioritise life-saving medical treatment?

Do you have any evidence that the NHS doesn't prioritise life-saving medical treatment?
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
quetzalcoatl: Yes, I think we should have a vote on operations, to decide if they are necessary or life-saving.
Don't be ridiculous. A vote? A reality show where people send messages costing £2 each! Don't you ever think of the babies who could be saved with this money?
But this is pure genius. A NHS reality show, where various people have to demonstrate their wounds and diseases, and then we, the caring, kind, British public, get to vote on which ones get the go-ahead for treatment.

Cute kid with rare disease - 100% votes.

Slag with bad facial birthmark - 0%

And the winner is - cute kid!

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707

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quetzalcoatl I'm getting increasingly uncomfortable with the way you are portraying myself and others who have a problem with this type of treatment as prejudiced. The words you are using in your posts are offensive and I've not posted anything even remotely in that universe. I don't use that language (not being British why would I - but anyway).
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013  |  IP: Logged
quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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seekingsister wrote:

Giving out huge glamour model implants on the NHS draws negative publicity to the service and serves to contribute to a loss of faith in it. This is bad.

Actually, the reverse is true for me. I am heartened that the NHS can still both treat medical conditions, and respect people's choices, whilst also resisting the sick comments in various tabloids, which contain both misogyny and anti-working class sentiment.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged
Matt Black

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# 2210

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quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Maybe we should prioritise life-saving medical treatment?

Do you have any evidence that the NHS doesn't prioritise life-saving medical treatment?
Herceptin.

[And, like seekingsister, I'm starting to get fed up with the way 'prioritise' is being misrepresented by some posters here]

[ 02. October 2014, 11:06: Message edited by: Matt Black ]

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

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Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
# 15351

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<Tangent>

quote:
Originally posted by Zoey:
(I think I've heard arguments that fertility treatment on the NHS should happen, amongst other reasons, because people's mental health is severely negatively affected by not having babies. Also, on a cost-benefit basis, if people scrape together money for privately-funded IVF they're more likely to go for having ridiculous numbers of embryos put in in one go, thereby increasing the risk of having multiples born very prematurely who cost a fortune in specialist neo-natal medical care.)

Which is clearly bollocks, because apart from the one maverick guy in Harley Street, who IIRC got a smackdown for it, no clinic in the UK will actually do that, owing to regulations etc. etc. (And (cynical) repeat business being good, and (not cynical) also wanting to actually get a good result, not any result).

FWIW whilst I'm not passionate about it, I also incline to the view that IVF is, on balance, not the best use of NHS resources. Not because it wasn't an option for us and we therefore pissed a lot of our own money up the wall on private treatment - which we were lucky to be able to afford by making other sacrifices, but not lucky enough to get a result on - but because it is (relatively) costly with (relatively) poor success rates. On a triage basis if nothing else I'd rather then money went to where it will do the most good.

I'm also very glad I don't actually have to make the decisions, though!
</Tangent>

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Vain witterings :-: Vain pretentions :-: The Dog's Blog(locks)

Posts: 1399 | From: just north of That London | Registered: Dec 2009  |  IP: Logged
quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quetzalcoatl I'm getting increasingly uncomfortable with the way you are portraying myself and others who have a problem with this type of treatment as prejudiced. The words you are using in your posts are offensive and I've not posted anything even remotely in that universe. I don't use that language (not being British why would I - but anyway).

I'm not sure why you think I have been portraying you at all. As far as I can see, you have accepted the need for this lady's op. My ire is directed at those who would deprive her of it, because she is a chav, and she is a woman, and also, because they hate the NHS. This has nothing to do with you.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged
LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

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quote:
seekingsister: Giving out huge glamour model implants on the NHS draws negative publicity to the service and serves to contribute to a loss of faith in it. This is bad.
Thus, you suggest that negative publicity a doctor's decision could generate should have an influence within the relation between him/her and the patient. In other words, the people who would look negatively upon such a decision should have a say in what happens between a doctor and a patient. Which is exactly what I said before. And it's a very scary thing.

quote:
seekingsister: My problem is with the provision of sizes that are beyond what is typical for a woman naturally.
And the NHS should only offer sizes that are within the bounds of what you happen to find typical for a woman naturally ... why exactly? Whatever you find typical should not influence what happens between Ms. Cunningham and her doctor.

quote:
seekingsister: You can find articles about her where she says she dreamt of being a glamour model from age 10, so to pretend that her choice to get DD implants was totally unrelated to this stretches credulity, in my opinion.
It doesn't matter. When a doctor performs a medical treatment to repair a body part, whatever we want to do with this body part after the treatment is of no concern to him/her.

quote:
seekingsister: She would have been well served with a B/C and we would not be talking about her now if that's what she had received.
Whatever you think she would have been well served with should have no inluence on what happens between Ms. Cunningham and her doctor.

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
seekingsister
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# 17707

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LeRoc - if you fundamentally believe doctors are always right, the NHS is always right, and therefore questioning choices made by either is unreasonable, then our conflict is not about breast implants. In which case there's not much more we can discuss with each other.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76

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I think it's more that LeRoc believes that it's got nothing to do with you.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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seekingsister
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# 17707

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I think it's more that LeRoc believes that it's got nothing to do with you.

Someone posted this topic on a discussion forum - I'm not meant to comment on it? Give it a rest!
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LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

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quote:
seekingsister: LeRoc - if you fundamentally believe doctors are always right, the NHS is always right, and therefore questioning choices made by either is unreasonable, then our conflict is not about breast implants. In which case there's not much more we can discuss with each other.
No, I don't believe that doctors are always right. Trust me, I've had some fights with my GP over time. But I also don't believe that when doctors are wrong, you should step in and provide the right answer.

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I think it's more that LeRoc believes that it's got nothing to do with you.

Someone posted this topic on a discussion forum - I'm not meant to comment on it? Give it a rest!
You can comment. Other people can tell you why they believe you're wrong. That's how it works.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Matt Black

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# 2210

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quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I think it's more that LeRoc believes that it's got nothing to do with you.

Someone posted this topic on a discussion forum - I'm not meant to comment on it? Give it a rest!
It's also bollocks as a line of reasoning - by extending that argument, the Health Secretary and all ministers and civil servants within his/her department should all be medically qualified, since only doctors should have a say on decisions in the NHS.

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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The point about negative publicity about the NHS is a joke, because some tabloids and some politicians, devote a lot of energy to such bad publicity. Why? Because they hate the NHS, and they want to see it dismantled, and replaced by private medicine.

Therefore they will of course use cases like this, and use their revolting headlines, and impugn doctors and surgeons, all in the cause of their reactionary politics.

Some of them also hate women, and therefore a case like this is doubly useful.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
Someone posted this topic on a discussion forum - I'm not meant to comment on it? Give it a rest!

The original topic was about this lovely young woman complaining about getting shagged by someone she thought was a footballer but turned out not to be, and advising girls that if their A-Level results are poor they can always have a career getting their tits out or escorting (i.e. prostitution).

It has well and truly been diverted into a discussion of the morality of her boob job, possibly because that's the only thing about her the lefties can bring themselves to defend And they have to defend her somehow, because she's working class and therefore can do no wrong. Unless said wrong can ultimately be laid at the door of someone who is either upper class or tory, of course.

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Hail Gallaxhar

Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I think it's more that LeRoc believes that it's got nothing to do with you.

Someone posted this topic on a discussion forum - I'm not meant to comment on it? Give it a rest!
OK then, how do you think decisions should be made in the NHS? Should there be rigid rules that define the treatment available to all people in a given set of circumstances, which will have the advantage of impartiality, or do you accept that clinicians need to be able to treat people as individuals, which will mean taking the wishes of that person into account as well as the availability of resources and the benefits that may accrue to the individual, which can easily appear inconsistent.

Just wondering.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

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quote:
Marvin the Martian: It has well and truly been diverted into a discussion of the morality of her boob job
(Maybe I should ask this in the Styx, but may I remind you that the topic of this thread has been 'diverted' at the specific and explicit request of a Host?)

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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I remember when Viagra became widely available, and there was a debate about it being available on prescription, and the Health Secretary at the time made the limpid comment that male impotence didn't cause pain, therefore it should not be given via prescriptions. I think medical opinion was opposed to this view.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged
Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
(Maybe I should ask this in the Styx, but may I remind you that the topic of this thread has been 'diverted' at the specific and explicit request of a Host?)

You may indeed remind me, as I had forgotten that fact!

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Hail Gallaxhar

Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged



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