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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Tophet. Is this what Jesus wants?
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Like I said, my priority in any case would be to keep my children alive. Once again, I'm not making a moral judgement here, just commenting that I find it interesting that such a difference exists.
In the abstract this makes sense. In specific situations, less so. Those Yazidi girls I quoted a few posts above thought death preferable to the life of rape and abuse they were being forced into, to the point that their ISIS captors had to use violence to PREVENT them from killing themselves.
There are many types of "life" simply not worth living, and one that follows a violent forced conversion is likely in my opinion to fall into that category.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
seekingsister: Those Yazidi girls I quoted a few posts above thought death preferable to the life of rape and abuse they were being forced into, to the point that their ISIS captors had to use violence to PREVENT them from killing themselves.
I do think it makes a difference whether the person in question is yourself or one of your children. I might choose to die myself if I were in such a situation. But I'd still prefer my children to live. Maybe this isn't logical, but parental instinct can be pretty strong.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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ButchCassidy
Shipmate
# 11147
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Posted
As IngoB has wisely said, I don't think the point is that one is oath-breaking, or that you have genuinely changed religion. Issues of genuine consent, gunpoint weddings etc, IMHO thats not the point. The point is that you would be publically denying Jesus out of fear.
Personally, I think the story of Peter makes what we should be doing very very clear. When Peter denied Jesus, he obviously didn't do so in his heart. And he went on to have a great life. But he still sinned (greatly) by doing so. It is the low point. "Jesus looked directly at him, and he went out and wept" etc. And later on, he does go on to stand up and declare Jesus and die, even though he could have doubtless carried on doing good works if he hadn't. As did Paul, etc.
And by the way we know that Peter had a wife so even the "staying alive to look after the family" argument is apparently not acceptable.
We are not expected to rationalise, to say things like "If I lie, cross my fingers, I can keep living and do good things". From the Gospel, that is clearly not what Jesus wants (even though he is obviously very merciful to people who do deny him).
In this situation, according to the archtypal story of Peter, we are expected to declare Jesus, and die for it.
By the way, I am aware that if I was in this situation, I might piss myself and agree to anything. A question of should rather than will.
Posts: 104 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2006
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
LeRoc wrote:
Fred Clark (the Slacktivist) did a series of posts on what he calls 'martyr envy'. The search function on his blog isn't very good, but I found this post. He seems to have two explanations for it:
Being a premillennial Evangelical Christian can be rather boring. You basically just sit there, in most situations rather comfortably, waiting for Jesus to return and bring on the rapture. Imagining yourself as a martyr gives a feeling of excitement.
Thinking about what you would do in a situation where faced with such a choice makes you look like kind of a hero. Even if it's only an imaginary situation, this can give quite a big ego boost.
Fred has a pretty good nose for this kind thing. Maybe not just martyr envy, but martyr porn, and terror porn. I suppose it is exciting for some people, and invites identification with the heroic martyr.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Does anyone care that event in the OP didn't happen ?
How do we know it didn't happen?
(And yes, if it didn't happen, then of course I would care. I don't appreciate being misled by horror stories.)
I realise that stories like this are very difficult to substantiate. To put it mildly. But just because the BBC and other media aren't reporting something ... doesn't mean it's not happening.
Back in the 1930s people refused to believe what was happening to the Jews too. It was too awful. It is extremely difficult to believe that humans really can do such horrible things. But they do. They have. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
If any of you have ever read up on the 1937-8 massacre in Nanking, with horrible atrocities committed against women and children, it makes for very difficult reading, just because it's so incredibly horrible. And, again, at a distance of many decades, somewhat difficult to verify. But there is testimony out there. Easy to Google.
You see the problem here. But any atrocity is difficult to believe, isn't it? Millions of children were murdered in the Holocaust, along with their families. There were the horrendous gang rapes of the Balkan Wars in the early '90s. The Rwandan genocide of 20 years ago. Why is it so hard to believe that IS really could be capable of doing this, of murdering children in cold blood? I think they ARE capable of it, to be honest. And if that's the case, then all our horror and revulsion should be directed at THEM, not at the parents given such an appalling choice. Assuming it would be a choice, which I also doubt.
As for this 'martyr porn' y'all are talking about, I've been in con-evo circles for decades and I think it's rare. Most Christians I know have the same reaction to me to the prospect of being tortured/murdered for our faith. Which is this: "Yeah, I know exactly how long I'd last under torture. Five minutes, probably." ![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
quetzalcoatl: Maybe not just martyr envy, but martyr porn
Some of Fred's commenters coined the term 'martyrbation', which I find rather good.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ButchCassidy:
In this situation, according to the archtypal story of Peter, we are expected to declare Jesus, and die for it.
You are joking aren't you?
There is nothing in this story which tells me I can't lie and live!
I would be more than happy to lie to nutters and crazies to get out of an impossible situation, then live and do some good in the world.
What use on Earth are a load of dead folk and smiling psychopaths?
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
quetzalcoatl: Maybe not just martyr envy, but martyr porn
Some of Fred's commenters coined the term 'martyrbation', which I find rather good.
I think there is a minor literature on the links between pain and sexuality in Christian art, for example, the various paintings of St Sebastian. In some of them, he's quite a hunk.
Also, some fine examples in the poetry of Richard Crashaw, such voluptuous pain.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
To be fair, what we have on both sides at this point is anecdotal.
I'm more inclined to believe claims made by people who are actually in the areas concerned, especially where no reputable news sources have mentioned it at all.
The anecdotal reports we're hearing-- both pro and con the story-- are both supposedly coming from people in the area. If you'll read the Snopes link, some news sources have mentioned it. But the sourcing is sketchy, so again, at this point the most reputable news agencies are calling it "unconfirmed". I think that's the best approach to take at this point. As others have noted, we don't want to be the ones who are looking the other way (as we have done in the past) while horrific atrocities occur. otoh, we don't want to pour gasoline on the fire or be part of a lynch mob by chasing false rumors. This is a time to be careful and responsible in what we say and how we say it. And it is a time to pray.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Who is the missionary? What is his phone number? Where was he? When?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Who is the missionary? What is his phone number? Where was he? When?
I'm unclear who you are asking. Or is the question rhetorical?
Be aware that most missionaries working in Iraq don't give out phone numbers. I receive an email update from a missionary working in the middle east which begins with the stern admonition not to forward the email.
All of which, again, neither confirms nor denies the allegations. Which is exactly where we are right now.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
No we're not cliffdweller. Even if it's true, which it isn't, it's a lie.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
No we're not cliffdweller. Even if it's true, which it isn't, it's a lie.
You don't know that. What proof do you have? Why are you so dogmatic, so certain, that it's nothing more than a lie?
Like I said earlier: people who sneaked out stories of historical atrocities were sometimes treated as non-credible sources. Not everything can always be verified. Unfortunately. Just like the Internet, Twitter, etc. can be deeply unreliable sources.
Canon Andrew White, the Vicar of Baghdad, has also reported similar atrocities committed by IS against children. Again, we only have his word for it - it's what his friends in Iraq told him, and he was reporting back. In tears. But he is someone of substance, with knowledge and experience of that area (and he talks to terrorists as well as Muslim clerics). He certainly has a better idea of what's happening out there right now than me. (And, IMO, you.)
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laurelin:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
No we're not cliffdweller. Even if it's true, which it isn't, it's a lie.
You don't know that. What proof do you have? Why are you so dogmatic, so certain, that it's nothing more than a lie?
Like I said earlier: people who sneaked out stories of historical atrocities were sometimes treated as non-credible sources.
The problem in this case is that every bit of pictorial evidence that has been advanced along with such claims has been proven to be from some other situation entirely.
There are journalists from various news agencies still operating in the area - and whilst they have filed reports on the hangings, beheadings, etc. They haven't reported at all on the particular sectarian crimes that parts of the Christian press have been reporting.
This quotation springs to mind:
"Suppose one reads a story of filthy atrocities in the paper. Then suppose that something turns up suggesting that the story might not be quite true, or not quite so bad as it was made out. Is one’s first feeling, `Thank God, even they aren’t quite so bad as that,’ or is it a feeling of disappointment, and even a determination to cling to the first story for the sheer pleasure of thinking your enemies as bad as possible? If it is the second then it is, I am afraid, the first step in a process which, if followed to the end, will make us into devils."
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
chris stiles: This quotation springs to mind:
"Suppose one reads a story of filthy atrocities in the paper. Then suppose that something turns up suggesting that the story might not be quite true, or not quite so bad as it was made out. Is one’s first feeling, `Thank God, even they aren’t quite so bad as that,’ or is it a feeling of disappointment, and even a determination to cling to the first story for the sheer pleasure of thinking your enemies as bad as possible? If it is the second then it is, I am afraid, the first step in a process which, if followed to the end, will make us into devils."
It also reminds me a bit of what Fred Clark calls "good Jackie / bad Jackie".
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
That's a great quote from 'Pulp Fiction', where Travolta says of his vandalized car, '"Boy, I wish I could've caught him doing it. I'd have given anything to catch that asshole doing it. It'd been worth him doing it, just so I could've caught him doing it."
In other words, I wish the awful story is true, then I get to have my rush of energy and excitment, and revenge feelings, and also feel virtuous.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Drifting Star
Drifting against the wind
# 12799
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Posted
Another contribution to the discussion on whether or not the story is true.
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The soul is dyed the color of its thoughts. Heraclitus
Posts: 3126 | From: A thin place. | Registered: Jul 2007
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Drifting Star: Another contribution to the discussion on whether or not the story is true.
This is an Anglican vicar? I personally know a number of Anglican clergy in the Middle East. He doesn't sound anything like them.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Drifting Star
Drifting against the wind
# 12799
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Posted
The article says "White, 50, is an Anglican vicar from London and president of the Foundation for Relief and Reconciliation in the Middle East, an aid and advocacy group that works for peace between different religious groups in the Middle East."
He is a former Canon of Coventry Cathedral. This is him. (Wikipedia link)
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The soul is dyed the color of its thoughts. Heraclitus
Posts: 3126 | From: A thin place. | Registered: Jul 2007
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Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211
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Posted
Andrew White is often interviewed on the BBC.
Sometimes the monstrous things are only in our heads and sometimes they're real. I wish many recorded atrocities weren't real, and hadn't happened, and I would be immensely relieved to know, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that IS really aren't beheading children. The doubt, however, remains.
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Drifting Star: He is a former Canon of Coventry Cathedral. This is him. (Wikipedia link)
Thank you, I've found him. I'm not so much commenting on what he says about the possibly beheaded children. It's that what he says in the artcle doesn't sound very reconciliatory. I know, we probably shouldn't reconciliate with ISIS, but he says general stuff about Muslims and Sunni's too that are rather fanning the flames instead of trying to put them out. Maybe my stereotypes are showing here, but what he says doesn't sound very Anglican.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
He's a well known member of the Anglican clergy. He's also been out in Iraq for absolutely ages and has the respect of all so called 'sides out there.
At times such as these stories fly around.
Who knows if they are true? All that we Do known is that the people who are living through these day deserve nothing more than our prayers.
We can't even begin to imagine what it is like for them.
God knows
And no doubt in the fullness of time we Might know some stuff, until then...enough that we pray.
Posts: 3126 | Registered: Apr 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
White I believe. Which makes it truer. From untrue that's progress. Both accounts are causally connected: there's no such thing as coincidence. But the truth is diminished, distorted by the lie.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
What, you hope you'd passively watch as they murdered your five year old?
Why?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Are some people saying that they'd rather see their children slaughtered than become Muslim? Or have I got the wrong end of the stick? Utterly baffling, if that is the case.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
That's how I'm reading a surprising number of people here and the 'missionary' who sent the text in the first place that Doublethink and I picked up on and that Andrew White DOES seem to confirm; both the insane account and that it's what Jesus wants.
Here on my comfy English village sofa, where our yew trees block my view of the church, I'd love to die an heroic Christian death, blessing my persecutors with 'Father forgive ...', but THAT part of the equation is missing in all of this.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Martin - I would love to die a peaceful cowardly death. But there you are, we are lived by the great liver, so cut down on the Scotch.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Sorry mate, I was stone cold sober. What is it about a culture that it is willing to sacrifice its children for Jesus and live? Yet wants military intervention on its behalf?
That's WJWD?
That's emulating Jesus?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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TurquoiseTastic
Fish of a different color
# 8978
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Sorry mate, I was stone cold sober. What is it about a culture that it is willing to sacrifice its children for Jesus and live? Yet wants military intervention on its behalf?
That's WJWD?
That's emulating Jesus?
Wow.
So someone comes to forcibly convert you. You won't do it, so they kill your children. You wish that someone powerful from outside would come and help you.
Conclusion - apparently - you are one sick bunny, from a sick culture! How dare you wish for someone to help you! Why couldn't you just have converted, like the nice gentlemen wanted you to?
Posts: 1092 | From: Hants., UK | Registered: Jan 2005
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
TurquoiseTastic: So someone comes to forcibly convert you. You won't do it, so they kill your children. You wish that someone powerful from outside would come and help you.
Conclusion - apparently - you are one sick bunny, from a sick culture! How dare you wish for someone to help you! Why couldn't you just have converted, like the nice gentlemen wanted you to?
Are you being sarcastic here? I really don't get it.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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TurquoiseTastic
Fish of a different color
# 8978
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Posted
Martin implies that there must be something wrong with a culture in which people refuse to convert under threat of death to their families, yet also desire military intervention on their behalf.
As I said before I find this "blame the victim" stance bizarre.
Posts: 1092 | From: Hants., UK | Registered: Jan 2005
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
TurquoiseTastic: Martin implies that there must be something wrong with a culture in which people refuse to convert under threat of death to their families
I say there is something wrong with a culture in which people refuse to convert under threat of death to their children, period.
They're your children for crying out loud. Keeping them alive should be a parents' priority.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
In fact, that sounds like a mirror image of Islamism - refusing to let your children convert, I mean. It's a kind of absolutism.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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TurquoiseTastic
Fish of a different color
# 8978
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Posted
I can understand that most of us would try to save our children. I think I most likely would too. But I can't understand this condemnation of those who think sticking by their faith is even more important.
In fact - to reverse Martin's argument - shouldn't a pacifist be able to sympathise with them? If the only way to save your children were to kill their attackers, as a pacifist one should refuse to do so, surely? And would you condemn such a pacifist for sticking to their principles?
Posts: 1092 | From: Hants., UK | Registered: Jan 2005
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic:
I can understand that most of us would try to save our children. I think I most likely would too. But I can't understand this condemnation of those who think sticking by their faith is even more important.
In fact - to reverse Martin's argument - shouldn't a pacifist be able to sympathise with them? If the only way to save your children were to kill their attackers, as a pacifist one should refuse to do so, surely? And would you condemn such a pacifist for sticking to their principles?
I have become wary of people who put their faith above everything else, especially human life. Of course, it's all too human, yet also anti-human.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
TurquoiseTastic: But I can't understand this condemnation of those who think sticking by their faith is even more important.
They made a decision. They knew that as a consequence of this decision, their children would die. Yet they allowed this to happen.
If sticking to your faith is more important than the lives of your children, then this faith is monstrous.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
The Middle East is being wrecked by people who think that their faith is paramount. Well, they appear to think that, perhaps this is a cover for something else.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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TurquoiseTastic
Fish of a different color
# 8978
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Posted
Not a sausage of sympathy?
You seem to have hardened your previous "right or wrong, I'm not one to judge that" considerably.
Perhaps they should have converted long ago. Then things would never have come to this pass in the first place.
Posts: 1092 | From: Hants., UK | Registered: Jan 2005
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
TurquoiseTastic: Not a sausage of sympathy?
I have. They live in a difficult situation and they had to make a decision under very tough circumstances. They deserve our support.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
TurquoiseTastic: You seem to have hardened your previous "right or wrong, I'm not one to judge that" considerably.
This is because you've changed the discussion.
Previously, this thread was about parents who would advice their children on whether they'd publicly abandon their faith or die. You've made the discussion about whether the parents would publicly abandon their faith or their children would die. That's a different moral beast.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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TurquoiseTastic
Fish of a different color
# 8978
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
TurquoiseTastic: Not a sausage of sympathy?
I have. They live in a difficult situation and they had to make a decision under very tough circumstances. They deserve our support.
Fair enough. Thank you. You are right in your second post - the situations are indeed different.
Posts: 1092 | From: Hants., UK | Registered: Jan 2005
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
What, you hope you'd passively watch as they murdered your five year old?
Why?
Um... I was saying "me too" to "I hope I WOULD refuse. I hope my son would refuse."
That's not passively watching. That's hoping that I, and any hypothetical children I might have, would stand together against someone trying to force us to deny Christ.
And who says that that would need to be passive, rather than dying in the attempt to save the children and others? For that matter who says one could not be trying (failing or otherwise, but at least going down fighting) to escape? There are worse ways to die.
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
ChastMastr: For that matter who says one could not be trying (failing or otherwise, but at least going down fighting) to escape? There are worse ways to die.
Oh, I would definitely try to escape. But part of my escape plan would be saying I convert into whatever he wants to the one who's got his gun pointed at me.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Oh, I would definitely try to escape. But part of my escape plan would be saying I convert into whatever he wants to the one who's got his gun pointed at me.
Ah. Yeah, I don't believe I am allowed to do that. I don't believe we were supposed to do that in ancient Rome, and I don't believe it now. Heck, the early Church had to decide whether to let people back in who were being threatened not just with a quick death but some of the most excruciating deaths by torture the human race had devised up to that time. Wasn't that what the whole debate with the Donatists was about? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
ChastMastr: Ah. Yeah, I don't believe I am allowed to do that.
Publicly denying Jesus I mean? I don't understand why you make such a fuss about that. If Jesus is such that He will punish us for publicly denying him to save our lives, then He's not worth affirming.
Worse when it comes to our children. Suppose someone threatens to kill my child unless I publicly deny Jesus. And suppose for a moment that I will go to Hell if I publicly deny him. I don't believe that bullshit, but for argument's sake.
I'd go to Hell to save the life of my child.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Publicly denying Jesus I mean? I don't understand why you make such a fuss about that.
Um... you don't?? Because in the Gospels Jesus specifically tells us not to?
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If Jesus is such that He will punish us for publicly denying him to save our lives, then He's not worth affirming.
And indeed the Donatist position, that one could not be forgiven or let back into the faith after denying Him, was determined to be a heresy. But that doesn't mean there's nothing to forgive. Jesus forgave Peter. But, again, there was something to forgive.
Good Lord, if lying in general is a sin, how much more so is lying about one of the things we've been specifically told in Jesus' own words to uphold and tell the truth about?
quote:
Worse when it comes to our children. Suppose someone threatens to kill my child unless I publicly deny Jesus. And suppose for a moment that I will go to Hell if I publicly deny him. I don't believe that bullshit, but for argument's sake.
I'd go to Hell to save the life of my child.
I understand the notion, and it underscores the sheer evil of the people trying to use things like that to force people to deny their faith. But I don't believe we're allowed to do that. Not for anything or anyone on this Earth. And I would not want my offspring or anyone else to do that to save me, either.
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
ChastMastr: Because in the Gospels Jesus specifically tells us not to?
Don't literally believe everything the Gospels tell us.
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ChastMastr: And indeed the Donatist position, that one could not be forgiven or let back into the faith after denying Him, was determined to be a heresy.
I go further than that. I don't believe there's anything to be forgiven.
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ChastMastr: But I don't believe we're allowed to do that. Not for anything or anyone on this Earth. And I would not want my offspring or anyone else to do that to save me, either.
Let me be more clear here. I don't care if we're allowed to do this or not. If Jesus doesn't allow us to publicly deny Him to save the lives of our children, then He's the one sinning here. In this case, He is monster that deserves to be fought with everything we have in us.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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