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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Tophet. Is this what Jesus wants?
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Jesus specifically tells us, you and me, the poor Christians of Iraq and their young children to do what in the good newses?
And the poor, poor Christians in a vile civil war are not paradoxically being passive in the face of their children being butchered in front of them AND demanding military action, it's a Roman Catholic bishop demanding the latter I believe. Is this like Paul demanding his rights as a Roman citizen?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Publicly denying Jesus I mean? I don't understand why you make such a fuss about that. If Jesus is such that He will punish us for publicly denying him to save our lives, then He's not worth affirming.
"For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me and for the gospel will save it."
Who are these words attributed to?
[ 13. October 2014, 08:13: Message edited by: seekingsister ]
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
ChastMastr: I... guess we'll just have to disagree.
I hope (and trust) you'll never be in the situation to find out.
quote:
seekingsister: "For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me and for the gospel will save it."
Who are these words attributed to?
Firstly, I don't care who they are attributed to. I don't read the Bible like this. Even if Jesus did say this, I wouldn't obey Him blindly. Secondly, I don't think this is about publicly denying Him. Thirdly, this is about giving up our life, not the one of our children.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
LeRoc you are more than entitled to your opinion, but that's all it is, frankly.
The documents which claim to have recorded Jesus' words (that is, the Gospels) have many statements which directly contradict your position, which seems to be that it's A-OK with God if you deny your faith in His son in order to avoid death or pain. I believe in a forgiving and understanding God who I would hope has mercy on people who in times of serious distress make mistakes. Nonetheless traditional Christian teaching has always been that it is a serious mistake to deny faith in Christ for any reason.
I don't see how the fact that it's to save children is relevant as the OP (if that story is even true) was about the children choosing to die rather than to convert. Not the parents choosing for them.
[ 13. October 2014, 10:05: Message edited by: seekingsister ]
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
The thread has drifted away a bit from the OP, that's what threads on the Ship normally do. The question it has moved to is this:
Suppose someone puts a gun to your child's head and says to you: "Deny Jesus or your child dies." What would you do?
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
The thread has drifted away a bit from the OP, that's what threads on the Ship normally do. The question it has moved to is this:
Suppose someone puts a gun to your child's head and says to you: "Deny Jesus or your child dies." What would you do?
Call me cynical but that sounds like a bad faith promise. Why would the person with a gun to my child's head not wait for me to deny Jesus and then kill the child anyway? That is not a sane or rational person you are dealing with.
I'd rather not deny Jesus in such a circumstance because death would be an almost inevitable outcome in that situation - with a gun-wielding anti-Christian lunatic somehow in control over me and my family. But of course this is what I say I'd like to do. In the moment who knows.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
seekingsister: I'd rather not deny Jesus in such a circumstance because death would be an almost inevitable outcome in that situation - with a gun-wielding anti-Christian lunatic somehow in control over me and my family.
You're weaseling out of it.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
I'm not weaselling out of anything.
It's at best naïve to come up with a scenario in which someone will kill you unless you deny Christ, but then after the denial will set you free and/or sustain you in some sort of enjoyable life afterwards.
If you trust the promise of a gun-wielding maniac more than the promises of God in regards to staying faithful to Him, then it's not much of a faith to begin with.
[ 13. October 2014, 10:45: Message edited by: seekingsister ]
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
Sigh. These are the kind of moral dilemmas where you just have to go with the premise. Suppose you have some way of being sure that your child will live if you deny Jesus.
quote:
seekingsister: If you trust the promise of a gun-wielding maniac more than the promises of God in regards to staying faithful to Him, then it's not much of a faith to begin with.
Even if I wouldn't trust this maniac, I would still deny Jesus.
Denying Jesus: There is a chance that my child will live. Even if the gunman does shoot him, it won't be because of my decision.
Not denying Jesus: My child will surely die. And it would be because of my decision.
I wouldn't hesitate about my decision.
(BTW, the promise of God is just the pie in the sky here.)
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Sigh. These are the kind of moral dilemmas where you just have to go with the premise. Suppose you have some way of being sure that your child will live if you deny Jesus.
Ideally - I'd not deny Jesus and pray for a miracle.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
seekingsister: Ideally - I'd not deny Jesus and pray for a miracle.
You'd bet the life of your child on a miracle?
BTW I don't believe that this is what you'd really do if push came to shove.
[ 13. October 2014, 11:29: Message edited by: LeRoc ]
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
BTW I don't believe that this is what you'd really do if push came to shove.
There are plenty of people whose faith in God is so unshakeable that they would indeed refuse to deny Him even if it cost the lives of their entire family. If they are 100% sure that their family will immediately be reunited in heaven then it's not as difficult a decision for them as it would be for you or I.
I think it's a tad on the harsh side (to say the least) to deny someone their claim to be in that group based on nothing more than how hard you find it to understand. And I say that as one who finds it very hard indeed to comprehend such a level of faith.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I suppose Islamist suicide bombers illustrate this kind of faith; well, that's if we take their state of mind as read. Possibly, it is more complicated than that, they might be feeling shame about failure, peer pressure, and so on. None the less, it it seems to be a faith-driven activity.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Marvin the Martian: I think it's a tad on the harsh side (to say the least) to deny someone their claim to be in that group based on nothing more than how hard you find it to understand. And I say that as one who finds it very hard indeed to comprehend such a level of faith.
I'm not denying their claim. They may be sincere in their belief that they would do this. They'll most probably never be in a situation where this is going to be put to the test.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
seekingsister: Ideally - I'd not deny Jesus and pray for a miracle.
You'd bet the life of your child on a miracle?
BTW I don't believe that this is what you'd really do if push came to shove.
I said ideally that's what I'd do. Unless it ever happens, neither of us will know the real answer, will we?
That you find it hard to believe - your choice. Remember a brave woman in South Sudan just a few months ago was on death row and gave birth to her daughter in shackles because she refused to renounce her Christian faith and her marriage to a Christian man. Her 20 month old son was also detained. And it was the testimony of her faith that got people around the world signing petitions to save her and her family is now reunited.
So - she had two of her children in prison with her as a result of her refusal to renounce Christianity. I know it's not death, but do you think this woman is crazy? That what she did was wrong?
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
seekingsister: Remember a brave woman in South Sudan just a few months ago was on death row and gave birth to her daughter in shackles because she refused to renounce her Christian faith and her marriage to a Christian man. Her 20 month old son was also detained. And it was the testimony of her faith that got people around the world signing petitions to save her and her family is now reunited.
No-one put a gun to the head to her son and ordered her to renounce her Christian faith. Renouncing her faith wouldn't have helped her, because from her detainers' point of view she was already an apostate.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
No-one put a gun to the head to her son and ordered her to renounce her Christian faith. Renouncing her faith wouldn't have helped her, because from her detainers' point of view she was already an apostate.
quote:
Giving her first interview since she was released last month, she told Fox News she was given three days to renounce her faith by the Sudanese authorities, and when she refused to was sentenced to hang.
In prison, she said she was visited every day by imams, who recited parts of the Koran to her in an attempt to pressure her into renouncing her religion.
She only got the death penalty after she refused to convert.
It's not a far leap from "gun to my child's head" to "imprisoned with my children and facing death penalty."
Anyway it would help me to understand your position - given that she endangered her children's lives quite seriously by refusing to convert to Islam, do you find her actions wrong?
The Telegraph
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
seekingsister: She only got the death penalty after she refused to convert.
But not her child. Was she still pregnant when they threatened to hang her if she didn't renounce her faith? In that case I'd say that yes, she was irresponsible by putting her child at risk.
Maybe there is something to be said for risking your life for your faith. But risking your child's life is another thing.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
But not her child. Was she still pregnant when they threatened to hang her if she didn't renounce her faith? In that case I'd say that yes, she was irresponsible by putting her child at risk.
Maybe there is something to be said for risking your life for your faith. But risking your child's life is another thing.
She was pregnant when they gave her the death penalty. In their "mercy" they delayed the sentence until after she gave birth to her daughter - which she did in shackles. Her 20 month old son was also detained with her in prison. So there were two children involved.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
If you trust the promise of a gun-wielding maniac more than the promises of God in regards to staying faithful to Him, then it's not much of a faith to begin with.
The thing is that denying Jesus in these circumstances isn't denying Jesus at all.
I can remain faithful to Jesus and renounce my faith to a nutter - what I say to a nutter to save my children is not connected with my faith or love for Jesus. I am sure that God will more than understand that.
Lying to a psycho to save your child is allowed! Lying to a psycho to get any good and right outcome is allowed.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
seekingsister: She was pregnant when they gave her the death penalty. In their "mercy" they delayed the sentence until after she gave birth to her daughter - which she did in shackles. Her 20 month old son was also detained with her in prison. So there were two children involved.
I think that if you are going to risk your life for your faith, you should take your children into account. She got lucky: she and her children survived. But gamble she did.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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TurquoiseTastic
Fish of a different color
# 8978
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Posted
How far does this go, then?
No doubt if you live under an oppressive regime, taking a stand against that regime is likely to put you and yours at risk.
Is that risk never worth taking?
Posts: 1092 | From: Hants., UK | Registered: Jan 2005
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
TurquoiseTastic: How far does this go, then?
No doubt if you live under an oppressive regime, taking a stand against that regime is likely to put you and yours at risk.
Is that risk never worth taking?
I think that if you have children, you should always, always, always take them into account if you are going to take a risk because of your beliefs. You may still decide to take these risks, but in doing so you also take part of the consequences upon you.
I have done things in Central America that I wouldn't do if I had children.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
The thing is that denying Jesus in these circumstances isn't denying Jesus at all.
I can remain faithful to Jesus and renounce my faith to a nutter - what I say to a nutter to save my children is not connected with my faith or love for Jesus. I am sure that God will more than understand that.
Lying to a psycho to save your child is allowed! Lying to a psycho to get any good and right outcome is allowed.
So you're saying that from your understanding of the Gospel:
- it's OK to lie to protect your physical and material well-being
- it's OK to publicly renounce faith in Christ
I'm sorry but I think we read different translations.
Again - I believe God can forgive this. But that's not the same as saying "it's allowed" or "it's OK God doesn't mind." It's an insult to God to say you don't know Him and it's a negative testimony to other believers and to the monsters trying to convert you on pain of death.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Well I can assure you that I'd not let my children be killed so that I can indulge myself in martyrdom. I'll lie, lie and lie again to preserve their lives. And I cannot for the life of me imagine why God would want it otherwise.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
I'm sorry but I think we read different translations.
No we don't, we just have different ways of interpreting what we read.
Nothing new there. Everyone interprets what they read in the Bible, we can't simply take it literally or we'd be in a state of either denial or complete confusion.
There are many ways to love God and love one another. I happen to think that lying to psychos can be one of them.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Well I can assure you that I'd not let my children be killed so that I can indulge myself in martyrdom. I'll lie, lie and lie again to preserve their lives. And I cannot for the life of me imagine why God would want it otherwise.
You don't believe God can protect you and your children?
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
There are many ways to love God and love one another. I happen to think that lying to psychos can be one of them.
I just don't see anything in the Gospel that says it's more important to stay alive dishonestly than it is to die righteously.
I can see why you would want to believe such is the case, but there's not much support for it in Scripture or in the bulk of Christian tradition.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
You don't believe God can protect you and your children?
There are many, many millions of children that God isn't protecting from the most terrible abuse - right now.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
You don't believe God can protect you and your children?
There are many, many millions of children that God isn't protecting from the most terrible abuse - right now.
Of course - God isn't a magic genie who takes away all pain and suffering. But I'm not talking about general abuse.
If we're talking specifically about being faced with a choice between violence and renouncing faith - then I do think perseverance in faith is something God rewards, if not in this life in the next.
Again, I'm not saying I would be the perfect martyr if faced with such a choice. All I'm saying is that I'm confident that the right choice is to stick with God, whatever the consequences.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
seekingsister: You don't believe God can protect you and your children?
Sorry, but this is just bullshit. In the hypothetical situation that someone would point a gun at my child's head, giving the answer that would make them shoot and trusting God would miraculously save them is the stuff of nutters.
Putting your children at risk because you believe God will miraculously save them is sick. There are plenty of examples of that.
Mrs. Ibrahim's live was saved, yes. Many people's lives weren't. And her surviving had a lot to do with her husband having a US passport. God works in mysterious ways sometimes.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
And I am saying that we can stick with God - whatever we say to psychopaths.
In my time I have had one sociopath to deal with. We shared an office. I told her plenty of lies to save my job. She was bullying me, I had to collect evidence before anything could be done to remove her. She was eventually dismissed. If I had not lied to her she would still be there, bullying and harassing the next and the next and the next person.
She was the worst person I have ever had to deal with (I am very lucky) but it gave me an insight into people who have no empathy, no care, no conscience.
They are not people we need to be truthful to. Not at all.
If lying to psychopaths and sociopaths brings about the right result then it's not the wrong thing to do.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Putting your children at risk because you believe God will miraculously save them is sick. There are plenty of examples of that.
Good thing this is ridiculous hypothetical that will almost surely never happen. So you can calm your hysteria down a bit.
In my heart I would choose God over life. For me and my children. That's my belief.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
seekingsister: In my heart I would choose God over life. For me and my children. That's my belief.
You don't have the right to choose something over the life of your children for them.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Well I can assure you that I'd not let my children be killed so that I can indulge myself in martyrdom. I'll lie, lie and lie again to preserve their lives. And I cannot for the life of me imagine why God would want it otherwise.
You don't believe God can protect you and your children?
Oh, he could. I have no confidence that he would. Terrible things happen to people all the time that God could protect them from but doesn't.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
Good thing this is ridiculous hypothetical that will almost surely never happen. So you can calm your hysteria down a bit.
The example I gave you actually happened 'tho.
I lied to a sociopath, kept my job and continued to feed my children.
What would you have done?
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
God is there -- in you. You have the tools to at least try and save them, in this hypothetical situation. You can lie like Ananias. And I would. Talk is cheap; it's the heart that's true.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
seekingsister: In my heart I would choose God over life. For me and my children. That's my belief.
You don't have the right to choose something over the life of your children for them.
In this hypothetical - it isn't the parent who is going to take the child's life. It's the KILLER! So you are advocating joining the killer's group - ISIS or whatever - and potentially exposing yourself and your children to a life of abuse, sexual slavery, and brainwashing, just to "save" their life which will descend into a hell far worse than death. As shown in the Yazidi women who were lining up to commit suicide under ISIS captivity.
You can lie in your heart but when they've put a gun in your 10 year old son's hands and sold your 12 year old daughter to be the third wife of a 70 year old with a temper, hasn't the lie become the truth?
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
The example I gave you actually happened 'tho.
I lied to a sociopath, kept my job and continued to feed my children.
What would you have done?
Apologies I must have missed this. What is the story?
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
seekingsister: So you are advocating joining the killer's group - ISIS or whatever - and potentially exposing yourself and your children to a life of abuse, sexual slavery, and brainwashing, just to "save" their life which will descend into a hell far worse than death.
Yes, I would. Without a doubt, without hesitation.
It is possible that I myself might be in a situation where I'd choose death above living (I'd probably choose a dangerous escape above suicide though), but I cannot make that choice for someone else. And making that choice before the slavery has even happened is just plain stupid.
quote:
seekingsister: You can lie in your heart but when they've put a gun in your 10 year old son's hands and sold your 12 year old daughter to be the third wife of a 70 year old with a temper, hasn't the lie become the truth?
I'd still be Christian.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
seekingsister: In my heart I would choose God over life. For me and my children. That's my belief.
You don't have the right to choose something over the life of your children for them.
In this hypothetical - it isn't the parent who is going to take the child's life. It's the KILLER!
But I can stop them by lying. Which I will. Where's there's life there's hope; when they're dead they're dead. Deciding they're better dead is not for me to do.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Deciding they're better dead is not for me to do.
Exactly.
Nicely summed up.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Where's there's life there's hope; when they're dead they're dead. Deciding they're better dead is not for me to do.
So the whole Christian "Jesus conquering the grave, hope after death for those who believe in Him" thing is just metaphor to you?
And again - it's ridiculous for anyone to see the parent in this scenario as the villain, and not, you know, the villain.
When people can destroy faith and hope there's nothing left worth living for. Someone asking for a renouncement at the barrel of a gun is trying to do just that. Why acquiesce?
As someone else mentioned I guess the choir of "yes let's lie to save our skins" doesn't believe in any sort of civil disobedience.
[ 13. October 2014, 15:53: Message edited by: seekingsister ]
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
seekingsister: So the whole Christian "Jesus conquering the grave, hope after death for those who believe in Him" thing is just metaphor to you?
Sigh yes, I believe that. But that isn't a reason not to do everything to stop my children from being killed.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
seekingsister: So the whole Christian "Jesus conquering the grave, hope after death for those who believe in Him" thing is just metaphor to you?
Sigh yes, I believe that. But that isn't a reason not to do everything to stop my children from being killed.
Exactly. And given I was on strike this morning SeekingSister's other weird non-sequitur is also shown to be bollocks.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
seekingsister: So the whole Christian "Jesus conquering the grave, hope after death for those who believe in Him" thing is just metaphor to you?
Sigh yes, I believe that. But that isn't a reason not to do everything to stop my children from being killed.
Because you'd rather them trained to be murderers or sex slaves?
I'm sorry but I would rather my child die innocent than be raped and beaten daily wishing for the escape of suicide. I would rather my child die innocent than kill others.
Death is not the worst thing that can happen to a person. Losing their soul and their dignity is worse.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
And given I was on strike this morning SeekingSister's other weird non-sequitur is also shown to be bollocks.
The only weird thing is that I'm being asked to debate the most unrealistic scenario ever.
Someone who says "Convert to X or I'll kill your child." is almost certainly planning to wreak ongoing havoc on you and said child regardless of your answer to that question.
The fact that people would willingly renounce the only thing that really matters from a spiritual perspective - and there's lots in the Gospels as wells about speaking truthfully so lying to murderers doesn't seem to me a special exception - because some psycho said you should - that in my view indicates a lack of faith.
I would want to stay faithful. I don't know if I'd be able to. But I think it would be the right thing to do. God will sort out the rest, frankly if a gun is at my head or my child's head any semblance of "control" over the situation is a delusion.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
seekingsister: The only weird thing is that I'm being asked to debate the most unrealistic scenario ever.
No-one is asking you to do anything.
quote:
seekingsister: Someone who says "Convert to X or I'll kill your child." is almost certainly planning to wreak ongoing havoc on you and said child regardless of your answer to that question.
One of the outcomes is going to wreak more havoc than the other.
quote:
seekingsister: I would want to stay faithful. I don't know if I'd be able to. But I think it would be the right thing to do. God will sort out the rest, frankly if a gun is at my head or my child's head any semblance of "control" over the situation is a delusion.
Putting your faith above your child's life is monstruous.
And yes, you can have some kind of control when there's a gun to your or anyone else's head. I know.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
seekingsister: Because you'd rather them trained to be murderers or sex slaves?
Rather than them being dead, yes. A thousand times.
quote:
seekingsister: I'm sorry but I would rather my child die innocent than be raped and beaten daily wishing for the escape of suicide. I would rather my child die innocent than kill others.
Death is not the worst thing that can happen to a person. Losing their soul and their dignity is worse.
That's not your choice to make. You can't make this choice for anyone else. Not even as a parent.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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