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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Tophet. Is this what Jesus wants?
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I believe Andrew White: “It’s just been terrible. They have been amputating people’s heads and putting them on railings. They have chopped children in half. You know, I write some of these things on my blog and nobody believes it,” he said in frustration, “They say you must be making this up, that there’s no evidence of this, this isn’t in this paper or that paper. Here we are living with it and people can’t accept it. There is no other Western person here in central Iraq. Not one. I’m the only one and they can’t believe it.”
I STILL don't believe the 'missionary'.
And of these 'people', who are Christian? I know of one little Christian boy severed, from Andrew White.
Not that it matters, but it does, the 'missionary' was implicitly claiming exceptional persecution of Christians - and so is Andrew it seems - over Yazidi, Shia and non-IS Sunni. And that Christian children are dying martyrs' deaths while their parents watch and do nothing, absolutely nothing.
As for the IS warning Christians not to do anything Christian, does that forbid kindness, generosity, gratitude, understanding, forgiveness, mercy, prayer? Or something else?
I'll check Andrew's blog.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Searching EVERY page. There is NOTHING on Andrew's blog indicating disproportionate, exceptional, targeted killing of Christians for four years. NOTHING to back up the 'missionary' story.
NOT that it couldn't WELL be true, despite NOTHING ANYWHERE to back up the claims, but the spin on it ISN'T. Even though 'they' may well believe it.
•June 23: ISIS Rape Christian Mother and Daughter, Kill 4 Christian Women for Not Wearing Veil
February 7, 2014
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Yesterday’s bombings were so serious and all around the church there were homicide bombings. Scores of people were killed including two young male friends in their twenties. They were Dawood’s closest friends and ran a shop which provided our church with much it needs.
29/05/2012
Regularly our people are wounded and killed not because they are targeted but because they are in the wrong place at the wrong time.
12/01/2012
Fatwa FORBIDS the killing of Christians.
30/10/2010
It was on the last day of October in 2010 that everything changed for Christians in Iraq. AQI gunmen broke into the Syrian Catholic Church during a service and killed 59 people. What followed was over 2 months of massacring, killing and torturing of Christians.
November 2010
Sadly a month later an attack killing a Christian family happened in Baghdad.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
psychologically, it's a mitzvah on his part to say that publicly. Those who are forced into a place where they have to feign conversion at least know they have a bishop who will stand by them through the ordeal. And that can help reassure them that God is with them through it, too.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
psychologically, it's a mitzvah on his part to say that publicly. Those who are forced into a place where they have to feign conversion at least know they have a bishop who will stand by them through the ordeal. And that can help reassure them that God is with them through it, too.
That's a very nice point. I suppose those opt for death may be also reassured that God is with them.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Since you have made it clear that you think submitting and saving the kids is the right thing to do, I would think you'd welcome any idea that helps people cope with doing that.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Since you have made it clear that you think submitting and saving the kids is the right thing to do, I would think you'd welcome any idea that helps people cope with doing that.
Absolutely. I am just having my five minutes a week, when I am feeling magnanimous. Although I find the idea of preferring one's child's death abhorrent, I'm not sure that God would condemn it.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Since I have spent the last 2-3 pages saying that we shoudn't judge such a choice, I will be predictable and agree.
[ 17. October 2014, 17:26: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Although I find the idea of preferring one's child's death abhorrent, I'm not sure that God would condemn it.
Consider a Sophie's Choice situation. A Nazi forces Sophie to choose which of her children he'll kill. (Or he'll kill them both.)
I do not think you can say that because she chooses one child rather than the other she prefers that child's death to the other child's death. That's the Nazi's logic. For that matter, if she rejects the Nazi's sadistic choice I don't think you can say she prefers that both children die.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
leo. He didn't.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Lord Pontivillian
Shipmate
# 14308
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Posted
I have read this thread for a while and found some of the posts abhorrent. I can not get my head around the idea that a parent would happily allow a child to be put in a position where they are likely to be a slave or a murderer. This seems wrong to me.
The readings this morning, in my church, were looking at Abraham and Isaac in the Old Testament; and The baptism of Jesus, with verse 29 being the link between the two tales.
I have come to the conclusion that the Abraham story, whilst outwardly repellent, is a tale of trust. Abraham trusted that God had a great inheritance for himself, although how killing the "chosen one" was going to achieve this he didn't quite understand.
I do not think that it was an easy thing, without emotion, for Abraham to do, but yet Abraham trusted God. I would hate to have to decide the fate of any hypothetical Children I had, but I think I would try and trust God.
What's better, an eternity without suffering or any pain in the company of my Children, or a lifetime of suffering and humiliation because I denounced my faith.
If we deny Jesus are we also denying our Salvation? Jesus makes it clear in the Gospels that the fire of hell is real and we need him to avoid it. Isis appear to make sure that those who make the oath to Isis will follow the will of Isis. I think that does have an effect on salvation.
My hope is that I would take the heaven sent opportunity if forced to deny my faith. Pain and suffering would end for ever....what's not to like. I hope that I would trust in the Jesus of the creeds. Remember that when Jesus died, there was a heartbroken father that had allowed his son to die, to quote a sermon I heard this morning.
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The Church in Wales is Ancient, Catholic and Deformed - Typo found in old catechism.
Posts: 665 | From: Horsham | Registered: Nov 2008
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I'm sorry, but I'm going to need a source before I believe that Jewish families committed suicide to avoid being transported to what they thought were mere labour camps.
It is true that there were a lot of rumours and misinformation, but I don't think the myth that these were just labour camps lasted long. Around 1980, I interviewed a couple of restistance members in the Netherlands who had hidden away Jews, and they knew very well at the time what they were protecting them from.
Warsaw: "No indication whatever is given by the Nazis as to the fate of the deportees, except that they are being sent to occupied Russian territory. The fear prevails that the victims are slaughtered by the Nazis on their way to the alleged 'unknown distinction in the east.'"
Paris: "The despair of the Jews both in occupied and in unoccupied France can hardly be described. They know that their deportation amounts to virtual death."
These were big cities, people knew that being sent away was near-certain death. Word gets around.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
There is nothing more abhorrent than God the damner. The antithesis of Jesus.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Lord Pontivillian
Shipmate
# 14308
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
There is nothing more abhorrent than God the damner. The antithesis of Jesus.
I've always understood the bible as teaching a God who has set the rules....whether you accept the rules or not is up to you. God may be the judge, but it is the person who does the damning. I see a loving God who would allow his soon to die so that people might live. What's abhorrent in that?
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The Church in Wales is Ancient, Catholic and Deformed - Typo found in old catechism.
Posts: 665 | From: Horsham | Registered: Nov 2008
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agingjb
Shipmate
# 16555
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
There is nothing more abhorrent than God the damner. The antithesis of Jesus.
Hmm. A glance at the gospel according to St Matthew will show that Jesus was not averse to a bit of damning. The "blessed"s in the Beatitudes are immediately followed by some "woe to"s; and later those goats are dealt with sharply enough.
If not salvation by works, perhaps damnation by works.
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Refraction Villanelles
Posts: 464 | From: Southern England | Registered: Jul 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Rules that are as arbitrary as stoning a man to death for picking up sticks?
There are no woes after the Beatitudes until six chapters.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Lord Pontivillian
Shipmate
# 14308
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Rules that are as arbitrary as stoning a man to death for picking up sticks?
There are no woes after the Beatitudes until six chapters.
I'm just trying to remember Jesus' words on that, to the pharisee's....something about "the man without sin gets some free stones"....
[ 19. October 2014, 21:04: Message edited by: Lord Pontivillian ]
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The Church in Wales is Ancient, Catholic and Deformed - Typo found in old catechism.
Posts: 665 | From: Horsham | Registered: Nov 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Which Pharisee's what?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Lord Pontivillian
Shipmate
# 14308
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Which Pharisee's what?
Reading John chapter 8 may answer you question.
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The Church in Wales is Ancient, Catholic and Deformed - Typo found in old catechism.
Posts: 665 | From: Horsham | Registered: Nov 2008
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
I think Martin was referring to your grocers' apostrophe.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Lord Pontivillian
Shipmate
# 14308
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Posted
Does that mean he's a grammar Pharisee? I blame the modern educational system for my grammatical deficiencies!
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The Church in Wales is Ancient, Catholic and Deformed - Typo found in old catechism.
Posts: 665 | From: Horsham | Registered: Nov 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I'm not a question.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Lord Pontivillian wrote:
I have read this thread for a while and found some of the posts abhorrent. I can not get my head around the idea that a parent would happily allow a child to be put in a position where they are likely to be a slave or a murderer. This seems wrong to me.
I get your point, but the word 'happily' is jarring; are you saying that people who convert rather than see their children killed, are happy about it? I doubt it.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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